The TV Show

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Steffan Alun - 23 Jul 2008 09:48 GMT

So, I was wondering whether anyone was still watching the TV show. I
stopped watching during the Orange Islands series, picked up again
when they headed for Johto, and gave up again when it took them four
years to get to Olivine City.

But having seen that I get Cartoon Network, I decided to start
watching again. The DP series is a nice reset button anyway, telling
the story of Dawn before Ash and Brock turn up. A very good thing, as
I know next to nothing about May or Max, so the more familiar the old
elements are, the better.

And I must say, I am enjoying it. I read a review of the first DVD
collection recently, which mentioned that it felt like a different
show back then, with only 151 Pokémon, and a more focused storyline -
and that's true, but I think the DP series does a great job of keeping
the whole thing engaging. The use of contests as a sideline, and the
appearance of so many recurring characters (Paul, Zoe, the bard)
really does stretch the story far more nicely than a million different
filler episodes.

And they gave Roark four episodes! Loved that. I primarily watch the
show to support my knowledge of the games anyway. It occurred to me
that I know RBY better than all games in part because I watched the
show so heavily, and became very familiar with the locations and
characters. My memory of DP is still hazy, even the gym leaders
(Roark, Gardenia, um ... Crasher Wake?, some red-haired girl with
fighting types ...), so I'm very keen on this style of storytelling.

Plus, Croagunk is awesome.

Steffan

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Chet Weaver - "RESPCK KNUCKLES!" - 23 Jul 2008 21:58 GMT

I still watch it. I've been able to watch regularly since it's been on
Cartoon Network, but I'm not so sure I've seen all the Kanto, Orange League,
and Johto Episodes.

The red-head is Maylene. She first appeared last week. I thought she
seemed less sure of herself on the show than in the games, but now that I
think of it the games probably just didn't pull it off all that well. She
only got two lines of dialogue in the game, after all. I only remember her
saying, "I don't understand what it means to be strong."

Yeah, Croagunk's pretty cool, but he's the most nonsensical chaperone thus
far. Or at least the most violent. You'd think repeated Poison Jabs to the
kidneys might cause some permanent damage and health concerns. And where
does he keep dragging Brock to, anyway?

I like how Crystal from Legend of Thunder makes the occasional cameo.
They're not long or a speaking part, but I like how it acknowledges that
movie.

-- Chet Weaver

So, I was wondering whether anyone was still watching the TV show. I
stopped watching during the Orange Islands series, picked up again
when they headed for Johto, and gave up again when it took them four
years to get to Olivine City.

But having seen that I get Cartoon Network, I decided to start
watching again. The DP series is a nice reset button anyway, telling
the story of Dawn before Ash and Brock turn up. A very good thing, as
I know next to nothing about May or Max, so the more familiar the old
elements are, the better.

And I must say, I am enjoying it. I read a review of the first DVD
collection recently, which mentioned that it felt like a different
show back then, with only 151 Pokémon, and a more focused storyline -
and that's true, but I think the DP series does a great job of keeping
the whole thing engaging. The use of contests as a sideline, and the
appearance of so many recurring characters (Paul, Zoe, the bard)
really does stretch the story far more nicely than a million different
filler episodes.

And they gave Roark four episodes! Loved that. I primarily watch the
show to support my knowledge of the games anyway. It occurred to me
that I know RBY better than all games in part because I watched the
show so heavily, and became very familiar with the locations and
characters. My memory of DP is still hazy, even the gym leaders
(Roark, Gardenia, um ... Crasher Wake?, some red-haired girl with
fighting types ...), so I'm very keen on this style of storytelling.

Plus, Croagunk is awesome.

Steffan

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Steffan Alun - 24 Jul 2008 08:05 GMT

On 23 Jul, 21:58, "Chet Weaver - \"RESPCK KNUCKLES!\""
<zeroo...@aim.com> wrote:

> I still watch it. I've been able to watch regularly since it's been on
> Cartoon Network, but I'm not so sure I've seen all the Kanto, Orange League,
> and Johto Episodes.

I tried to catch up on the Johto episodes at home, where my parents
have extensive satellite TV - all sorts of odd channels showed
Pokémon, so I saw the series that spanned Goldenrod and Olivine, as
well as a lot of the Whirl Cup series.

Otherwise, though, it took too long to repeat later material. Still,
it's nice in a way, since it means that the series has improved over
time, so that coming to it fresh makes it noticably better than
before.

> The red-head is Maylene. She first appeared last week. I thought she
> seemed less sure of herself on the show than in the games, but now that I
> think of it the games probably just didn't pull it off all that well. She
> only got two lines of dialogue in the game, after all. I only remember her
> saying, "I don't understand what it means to be strong."

Awesome. Hope those eps come to the UK soon, then. At the moment,
they loop back to the start whenever they finish the three-part tag
tournament (which I assume is the end of "series one" of DP).

> Yeah, Croagunk's pretty cool, but he's the most nonsensical chaperone thus
> far. Or at least the most violent. You'd think repeated Poison Jabs to the
> kidneys might cause some permanent damage and health concerns. And where
> does he keep dragging Brock to, anyway?

That's one of my favourite recurring gags. I particularly love one
episode - can't remember which - where he gets dragged off, the gang
start talking, Brock mentions something, and Dawn says "that was
fast!", to which Brock replies "yep". Awesome.

And violent or not, I find his Poison Jab hilarious. I'm inflicting
this series on my girlfriend and housemate at the moment, and they're
very taken with Croagunk, which means I get to keep watching it!

> I like how Crystal from Legend of Thunder makes the occasional cameo.
> They're not long or a speaking part, but I like how it acknowledges that
> movie.

I noticed that! On the back of the magazine! Or the front cover, I
suppose, since it's Japanese.

Something that occurred to me, reading your PW! - what would you
consider yourself a bigger fan of? The show or the games? For me,
the games have always come first, and the show's a fun illustration of
those games, but I know that Rob really likes the show, and follows
that in his PW!. I notice that you have animé logic apply throughout,
especially to the Pokédex and such, so I was curious as to which
appeals to you the most.

Steffan

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Chet Weaver - "RESPCK KNUCKLES!" - 24 Jul 2008 19:26 GMT

On 23 Jul, 21:58, "Chet Weaver - \"RESPCK KNUCKLES!\""
<zeroo...@aim.com> wrote:

> I like how Crystal from Legend of Thunder makes the occasional cameo.
> They're not long or a speaking part, but I like how it acknowledges that
> movie.
>
> I noticed that! On the back of the magazine! Or the front cover, I
> suppose, since it's Japanese.

She also appears on a television at one point. I think she was
demonstrating Double Performances. The region's contest announcer was still
doing all the talking, though.

> Something that occurred to me, reading your PW! - what would you
> consider yourself a bigger fan of? The show or the games? For me,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> especially to the Pokédex and such, so I was curious as to which
> appeals to you the most.

Good question. I never really thought of it. I don't play the games all
that frequently, as I'm usually done with it by the time I beat the Elite
Four. I watch the animé every week, and I apply animé logic since I think
it often makes more sense than video game logic (although game logic is
easier to lampoon). In fact, I think I associate PW more with the animé
than the games, even though it seems the reverse is true for a lot of
players. So, yeah, I think I'm a bigger fan of the animé.

On thing, though, that I don't agree with in the animé (and probably the
video games) is the depiction of the "Sleep" condition. That is to say,
it's taken literally and the Pokémon falls asleep. "Sleep" is used in a lot
of RPGs to incapacitate your opponent so you can wail on them with no
retaliation, but in a lot of RPGs you're trying to kill the monsters. There
is much difference between "Asleep" and "Dead." But in Pokémon, you don't
kill the monsters, but knock them out. In the real world, being knocked out
and just falling asleep results in the same state of unconsciousness. Yet,
in Pokémon you can be knocked out *while* you're asleep. Even in tournament
conditions, a sleeping Pokémon is still isn't considered defeated and is
still a valid target. If this were the real world, a sleep-inducing
technique would be considered a one-hit knock-out. I would prefer a
"Sleeping" Pokémon to appear mesmerized or zoned-out instead of laying down
and going to sleep if it's still going to be attacked.

-- Chet Weaver

"What's the fun of being cool if you can't wear a sombrero?"
- Hobbes, Calvin & Hobbes

Diamond Trainer Name: Minnie
Friend Code: 0988 8637 4610
Badges: 8
Location: Pokemon League
Time: 295 Hours since April 22, 2007
PokeDex Completion: 146/139
Score: 19623
Current Goal: Need to train for the Elite Four, complete PokeDex
Pokemon Needed: Garchomp, Drapion, Palkia, & Snorlax
Event Pokemon Collected: "Lucario" Mew, "Rise of" Darkrai, Gamestp Deoxyx

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Steffan Alun - 25 Jul 2008 08:05 GMT

On 24 Jul, 19:26, "Chet Weaver - \"RESPCK KNUCKLES!\""
<zeroo...@aim.com> wrote:

> Good question. I never really thought of it. I don't play the games all
> that frequently, as I'm usually done with it by the time I beat the Elite
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> than the games, even though it seems the reverse is true for a lot of
> players. So, yeah, I think I'm a bigger fan of the animé.

Makes sense. The show was huge when PW! began - plenty watched who
didn't play the games. And the games at the time were far clunkier,
its personality clouded by their simplicity (compared to later
games). Even now, I think the show brings the world to life in a very
engaging way, and gym leaders feel far more like characters.

Actually, all the characters feel more real in the TV show. I love
the games, but no character is that fully realised.

> On thing, though, that I don't agree with in the animé (and probably the
> video games) is the depiction of the "Sleep" condition. That is to say,
> it's taken literally and the Pokémon falls asleep.

I can't say I remember seeing the condition in the show. Do their
eyes swirl up when they're asleep? I've always taken that to be a
sign they're knocked out, so I think I'd be fine with them being
asleep as long as their eyes were merely closed rather than swirly.

One think I dislike in the show is the amount of dodging the Pokémon
do. Alright, fights would be more brutal if dodging wasn't an option
- but does the trainer have to shout "dodge it!" every single time?
Surely a Pokémon ought to be doing their best to dodge oncoming
attacks anyway. It makes the dialogue quite tedious, I find. And
when attacks hit, the trainer's never shouted "dodge it!" beforehand.
If it's such a foolproof tactic, why not use it all the time?

Not to mention that I think dodging is a daft idea anyway. The animé
takes liberties anyway - I don't see why it doesn't just go with the
idea that Pokémon are far stronger defensively than they are in the
games, so they can take more Bullet Seeds / Hyper Beams / Giga Impacts
to the face before they die.

Steffan

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Chet Weaver - "RESPCK KNUCKLES!" - 25 Jul 2008 23:36 GMT

Both in and out of battle, people and Pokémon alike fall asleep, sometimes
for hours, after being hit by a Yawn attack or listening to Jigglypuff Sing.
In a recent episode, Ash's Turtwig is put to sleep, albeit for only a
moment, and he just lays down and a large bubble comes out of his nose.
That's generally animé shorthand for being fast asleep. Pokémon do tend to
get swirly-eyed when they're "HP=0" knocked out, but they've used that for
other things as well, such as being dizzy or confused.

As for "Dodge it!", I think that might be partly an encouragement thing,
partly a timing thing, partly dramatic flare and partly superstition. It's
unusual for a "Dodge it!" command to fail, but I think it has happened
occasionally. The "Dodge it!" command shows that a trainer has considerable
control over their Pokémon, and/or their Pokémon has a lot of trust in their
executive power. It also suggests the trainer knows there's a right moment
to dodge, a point where the attacker is least likely to alter the trajectory
of their attack or the point where the attack is most effectively countered.
On the encouragement/superstition angle, it can ease the trainer's state of
mind to believe they have some control, or it can be more along the lines of
a "C'mon... c'mon...", only in a shorter span of time. It's also more
confident-sounding than "Look out!", though that's said a lot as well.
Also, Ash has recently taught his Pokémon more specific forms of dodging,
such as the spin-dodge where his Pokémon narrowly twists around an attack in
mid-flight. We're unlikely to find a "Dodge it!" command in the games (the
main RPGs, at least) any time soon, but it works for the show.

The thought occurs that if there was a spin-off Pokémon game that relied on
quick, rhythm or fighting game style button-pressing, you could have a
"Dodge it!" command there. A game based on animé-style contests could take
advantage of such a style. In a turn-based RPG, "Dodge it!" would probably
take the place of a "Defend" command that sacrifices an attack to brace for
impact, but there are Pokemon techniques like that already.

-- Chet Weaver

On 24 Jul, 19:26, "Chet Weaver - \"RESPCK KNUCKLES!\""
<zeroo...@aim.com> wrote:

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Steffan Alun - 26 Jul 2008 01:12 GMT

On Jul 25, 11:36 pm, "Chet Weaver - \"RESPCK KNUCKLES!\""
<zeroo...@aim.com> wrote:

> Both in and out of battle, people and Pokémon alike fall asleep, sometimes
> for hours, after being hit by a Yawn attack or listening to Jigglypuff Sing.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> get swirly-eyed when they're "HP=0" knocked out, but they've used that for
> other things as well, such as being dizzy or confused.

True. I think of sleeping outside of battle as different to in-battle
sleep. A bit like Cut, Surf, Dig, Teleport and Sweet Scent behaving
differently in battles and out of them. The animé has different moves
that have out-of-battle purposes, and I'm content to imagine sleep
moves come under that banner.

Indeed, in the episode A Staravia is Born (saw it the other day),
Hoothoot uses Hypnosis to make Meowth free prisoner Pokémon, rather
than sending him to sleep.

> The "Dodge it!" command shows that a trainer has considerable
> control over their Pokémon, and/or their Pokémon has a lot of trust in their
> executive power. It also suggests the trainer knows there's a right moment
> to dodge, a point where the attacker is least likely to alter the trajectory
> of their attack or the point where the attack is most effectively countered.

Yeah, I suppose. I think I just find it boring, since it's not like
dodging is that varied.

> Also, Ash has recently taught his Pokémon more specific forms of dodging,
> such as the spin-dodge where his Pokémon narrowly twists around an attack in
> mid-flight. We're unlikely to find a "Dodge it!" command in the games (the
> main RPGs, at least) any time soon, but it works for the show.

I'm not sure how I feel about that. A lot of time is dedicated to
training his Pokémon to do something they can't do in any incarnation
of the games - not in the RPGs, not in Ranger or Mystery Dungeon, not
even in Snap or Channel. I'm not that engaged by something so
completely fabricated for the show.

Not that I'm deeply enraged or anything. It's a fun show, and very
silly, so it shouldn't be picked apart too much. But I always prefer
it when they really use the games for brilliant set pieces.

I particularly like moments where Pokémon abilities are relevant,
especially if Brock gets to explain them. There was a lot of this in
Shapes of Things to Come, with Paul's battle against Roark.

> The thought occurs that if there was a spin-off Pokémon game that relied on
> quick, rhythm or fighting game style button-pressing, you could have a
> "Dodge it!" command there. A game based on animé-style contests could take
> advantage of such a style. In a turn-based RPG, "Dodge it!" would probably
> take the place of a "Defend" command that sacrifices an attack to brace for
> impact, but there are Pokemon techniques like that already.

I wouldn't mind seeing that sort of thing in a Ranger-style game,
where there was more use of stylus than command-selecting.

Steffan

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