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Game Forum / Role Playing Games / Warcraft / May 2008LF advice from bears :)
With all my dps and healer characters I've never actually tried tanking yet (my protadin unfortunately only developed around the same time I switched to horde, so I never got round to finding groups for her yet) but I've recently picked up my lowbie druid and thought I'd try tanking with him. Today I got a group in WC for the first time, I had some doubts about holding aggro as I was just 21 (dinged 22 during the run) while there was a 23 rogue and a 27 shaman, but surprisingly I managed quite well, at least on single mobs.. The priest abandoned us early on (gotta love low lvl pugs, sigh) so we 4-manned the rest, amazingly with no deaths; it actually went really well despite the noob tank ;-) I suspect I'll never be a brilliant tank as I've got slow reactions and poor situational awareness, but I'd like to at least be useful in normal 5-mans etc, so here's a bunch of questions on how I can improve - hopefully someone who knows more than me can help! * What abilities are the main ones to use while tanking (obviously considering my level)? Single mobs it appeared the general idea was maul, maul, maul, I threw in demoralising roar on bosses but otherwise there seemed little else I could do. Groups of mobs were tougher as usually by the time I'd got enough rage to swipe half of them were dead and anyway I was spending more time chasing individual mobs. Assuming an ideal pull, should it just be swipe spam on groups? And is there a decent way to manage rage? It drops so fast, half the time by the time I've targetted the next mob in a group I've got none left :-/ * Casters... oh boy. I levelled partway through and stuck a point in feral charge which helped no end but even so, what do you do when you've got 3 casters, all standing apart from each other? Corner pull is I know the ideal thing but a) no handy corners and b) low level pug, not even worth hoping for them to wait for that ;-) Generally I'd whack the nearest one to get some rage then leave it to the rogue/shaman while I charged at another one to try and ensure I at least had the attention of the mobs not being focussed at the time. Was there anything better I could do? At the very least it seemed to work as nobody died (and damage meters said I'd taken 60% of inc damage, which seems a reasonable amount to expect) but it felt rather chaotic! * Pulling. No ranged skills available in bearform. I probably should've switched to caster and used moonfire or wrath more but it seemed pretty fiddly, and on the rare occasions I actually had any rage left I didn't want to lose it by shifting. Obviously feral faerie fire comes when I get that far down the tree but it's some way away yet. Any tips meanwhile until I get that? I generally just bodypulled or let the rogue throw knives, but it wasn't ideal. * Talent points. So, I'm feral at the moment, 13 points spent to get extra threat, 4% dodge/catform movement increase and feral charge. I've put 1 point into resto for Furor and I'm looking at putting the next 4 there as well. But what then? Continue in resto to Omen of Clarity, or wait a little on that and get to feral faerie fire instead? Hard to choose what way to go, give it 30 levels or so and no problem, but what to get first is a hard choice. I want to try and do instances a fair bit as I level to get experience as I'm totally new to tanking, so getting the most useful talents possible as early as possible would be good. Any other tips/suggestions? :-)  SignatureEU-Draenor: Balgair - Human Rogue (lvl 70) Naomh - Draenei Priest (lvl 70) Sagart - Undead Priest (lvl 70) Rosad - Human Warlock (lvl 70) Sealgair - Dwarf Hunter (lvl 70) Eilnich - Blood Elf Warlock (lvl 70) Beag - Dwarf Paladin (lvl 60) > With all my dps and healer characters I've never actually tried tanking yet > (my protadin unfortunately only developed around the same time I switched [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > > Any other tips/suggestions? :-) Ugh, it's been so long since I leveled my druid it's hard to recall. Probably the most important thing is to realise that druids don't have very good rage generation at early levels (maybe it's the same for warriors). That is definitely the biggest problem for low level tanks. The talent that increases threat is mandatory ofc which you have. Forget thick hide for now, go for brutal impact, the increased stun is more useful. You need all the rage you can get so the more damage you take the better, rely on stamina to soak the hits rather than armour. You did take ferocity instead of the imp: demo roar right? Others recommend stacking agi because it helps with crits and dodge, and also increases cat form AP, but I disagree. I say go for str/stam gear because str increases AP in bear form too (= more rage, agi adds no bear AP), and again, you don't really want to be dodging too much at lower levels because you need the rage from getting hit. Then again, I could be wrong about this, but that's the way I went. When you get Primal Fury which adds rage on crits, it might be worth looking at agi, but even then I'd still say str is better for leveling (also gives 2AP in cat instead of 1 from agi). Furor is really nice, I underestimated it at first. It's a real pain to wait for rage to build from enrage. I'm not sure I recommend going to OoC early anymore, I did because I liked the other talents in resto (uninterruptable heals) for when soloing, so I figured I might as well grab OoC. Also, maul is using all your rage if you're spamming it. Maul replaces your white hits, so you're almost always coming out negative rage if you're using it on each attack. Probably best to ask DPS to wait 5 seconds before attacking so you can generate rage for swipe. In this regard it's actually almost preferable to be tanking multiple mobs. Casters are a pita really. You stated correctly that LoS pulls are the way to handle them, but that isn't always possible and in low level PuGs you'll be lucky to get dps who let you do it. Frankly, low level instances feel so easy these days that tanking is really just a job to keep as many mobs on you as possible and keep them all off the healer. So often it's ok to let dps just take care of 1 or 2 casters. But it's hard if you don't want to aggro other packs, but I'm not sure there are many low level dungeons where that's too much of a risk, especially where they haven't given opportunity for LoS pulls. I recommend pulling with a wrath then quick moonfire, then shifting to bear (furor is nice here), and enraging. With those damage spells you've got some aggro already. You can wrath one target and while it's travelling switch to another and moonfire. Later on your get hurricane which is my staple for pulling on larger packs now. I even do it on 3 mob packs because it seems to work so well for that initial aggro. Personally I found/find one of the more challenging things with tanking is dealing with the other players. You'll get many that make your job frustrating, but again I'll say that lower level dungeons leave a lot of room for mistakes, so don't get too stressed if dps steal mobs. Even at lower levels though I recommend asking for leader, and one simple strategy is to mark the skull (make suire they all know what it means), and let dps go to town while you tank the others. It's a frustrating but also rewarding playstyle, good luck :) >> With all my dps and healer characters I've never actually tried tanking yet >> (my protadin unfortunately only developed around the same time I switched [quoted text clipped - 114 lines] > > It's a frustrating but also rewarding playstyle, good luck :) Oh and of course most of what I say here applies to tanking while leveling in Azeroth. As you get higher, not sure the exact level, you'll have to start looking more at mitigation, especially outlands where they start hitting a lot harder. Also, I forgot to mention, your lots of your threat from bear comes from white hits too, so stacking str gives even more threat per hit and generates more rage. >> Ugh, it's been so long since I leveled my druid it's hard to recall. >> Probably the most important thing is to realise that druids don't have [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> take the better, rely on stamina to soak the hits rather than armour. >> You did take ferocity instead of the imp: demo roar right? I did indeed take that, it looked much more useful! Hadn't thought of not taking thick hide but I see your logic there, I might pay up for a respec then as I can see the stun being handy. >> Others recommend stacking agi because it helps with crits and dodge, >> and also increases cat form AP, but I disagree. I say go for str/stam [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> looking at agi, but even then I'd still say str is better for leveling >> (also gives 2AP in cat instead of 1 from agi). Makes sense - currently I've just got whatever I came across which is a large amount of agi, but now you say that I can see the point to going more with str/sta. Atm I have about 16% dodge and 42% reduction from armour, plus 1.1k health in bear form (got lucky with drops and got pretty much every good blue out of WC in 2 runs) My health only dropped low a couple of times, generally when the shaman was busy dpsing, so I can afford to drop some avoidance and get more attack power then. Speaking of health dropping, I made a macro to cancelform, take a health pot then go back into bearform - does that work instantly enough that I'm not likely to get hit in the process? At this level it's fine anyway but can I afford to use it at higher levels as an "oh crap" button, or does it risk me getting one-shotted during the switch? It looked like I never really shifted out; the graphics never changed anyway. (Even if it's not that safe to use while tanking I'll keep it for solo, cause if I need to use a pot in catform chances are I'd be better off in bear ;-)) >> Furor is really nice, I underestimated it at first. It's a real pain >> to wait for rage to build from enrage. I'm not sure I recommend going [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> seconds before attacking so you can generate rage for swipe. In this >> regard it's actually almost preferable to be tanking multiple mobs. Ahhh thanks for that! I'm not really used to playing characters with rage or "on next swing" abilities so hadn't really thought of that. Basically a good idea to restrain myself and not spam it constantly then - I've been too used to rogues with their energy generation where you do just keep spamming an ability until you have the energy for it ;-) >> Casters are a pita really. You stated correctly that LoS pulls are the >> way to handle them, but that isn't always possible and in low level [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> are many low level dungeons where that's too much of a risk, >> especially where they haven't given opportunity for LoS pulls. Yep, I figured my best option was to try and keep the mobs off the clothies but not panic if I lost a mob or two to people all going for different ones. Especially on those caster pulls. I appreciate higher levels require more control but there's a fair difference between low level instances and high level ones so I'm telling myself to go with the flow as it were! Thankfully next on my list of places to visit is SFK and most mobs there are melee so it should be a lot easier! >> I recommend pulling with a wrath then quick moonfire, then shifting to >> bear (furor is nice here), and enraging. With those damage spells >> you've got some aggro already. You can wrath one target and while it's >> travelling switch to another and moonfire. Later on your get hurricane >> which is my staple for pulling on larger packs now. I even do it on 3 >> mob packs because it seems to work so well for that initial aggro. Aha, will give that a try then - I'm still getting used to the whole shifting thing, feels a little strange but I can see that being a good way to get initial aggro, kinda like the paladin's avengers shield. Now all I have to do is improve my coordination enough to make it work... I'm kinda clumsy at times when it comes to chaining different abilities ;-) >> Personally I found/find one of the more challenging things with >> tanking is dealing with the other players. You'll get many that make [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >> It's a frustrating but also rewarding playstyle, good luck :) The other players part is going to be the hardest for sure - I am totally not a leader type of person, in fact I hate leading any group which is why I've avoided tanking for so long. Didn't help much that WC is such a maze as I wasn't too sure where I was going, but I did at least try to take the initiative and make the pulls myself where possible instead of waiting for somebody else to. But taking the lead at all isn't easy for me, I'm not looking forward to reaching levels where I have to think about marking stuff for cc etc. Although I can see the skull mark being a good idea. >Oh and of course most of what I say here applies to tanking while >leveling in Azeroth. As you get higher, not sure the exact level, you'll >have to start looking more at mitigation, especially outlands where they >start hitting a lot harder. I figured that's what you were meaning, yeah - I know high level druids have to go for dodge in particular to et uncrittable etc. I guess if mobs hit harder there's less rage generation issues though so it doesn't matter so much that way when I reach that stage. >Also, I forgot to mention, your lots of your threat from bear comes from >white hits too, so stacking str gives even more threat per hit and >generates more rage. Also makes sense, bears don't seem to have any sunder armour type ability (does faerie fire cause threat like sunder?) so it seems basic damage is good for threat. I was 2nd on damage done in my group and never had trouble holding aggro on mobs I'd been hitting for as long as the others so I guess damage helps a lot! Thanks for your detailed reply, that's just what I was wanting, as now I've got plenty to think about and hopefully learn from in future runs! :-) It's actually really fun learning a totally new role; I've got enough experience with dps and healing now that I can pick up different classes and still not have that much to learn once I've looked at the available skills, but tanking is completely new territory to me, fun learning about it. SignatureEU-Draenor: Balgair - Human Rogue (lvl 70) Naomh - Draenei Priest (lvl 70) Sagart - Undead Priest (lvl 70) Rosad - Human Warlock (lvl 70) Sealgair - Dwarf Hunter (lvl 70) Eilnich - Blood Elf Warlock (lvl 70) Beag - Dwarf Paladin (lvl 60) Hi > Speaking of health dropping, I made a macro to cancelform, take a health > pot then go back into bearform - does that work instantly enough that I'm [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > that safe to use while tanking I'll keep it for solo, cause if I need to > use a pot in catform chances are I'd be better off in bear ;-)) this macro can be instant - IF you're not in a GCD at the moment! I'd recommend these sites: http://www.druidwiki.com http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t25842-feral_druid_powershifting_macros_thresholds_m ana_management/ http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t16902-feral_druid_megathread/p159/ especially the last 2 threads have some nice macros, although they're usually aimed at 70 Urs SignatureMano - Orc Shaman 70 - Jewelcrafter & Leatherworker - Slayer of Illidan Myno - Tauren Bear 70 - Skinning & Herbalism Fluora - Belf Prot Pally 43 - Skinning & Mining Ratoma- Troll Rogue 28 - (Dis)Enchantress Melony - Human Mage 16 and various others >Hi > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >especially the last 2 threads have some nice macros, although they're >usually aimed at 70 Thanks for that, I see there's a handy macro in the last thread for potions, will be having a good look at that one! :-) SignatureEU-Draenor: Balgair - Human Rogue (lvl 70) Naomh - Draenei Priest (lvl 70) Sagart - Undead Priest (lvl 70) Rosad - Human Warlock (lvl 70) Sealgair - Dwarf Hunter (lvl 70) Eilnich - Blood Elf Warlock (lvl 70) Beag - Dwarf Paladin (lvl 60) > On Tue, 27 May 2008 21:48:57 +0100, "Mark (newsgroups)" > >> The talent that increases threat is mandatory ofc which you have. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > taking thick hide but I see your logic there, I might pay up for a respec > then as I can see the stun being handy. The stun is incredibly useful, I can't believe I underestimated it for so long. It works on cat pounce and maim too, though you only get those later, it's very useful for longer stuns on opening. Also great for instances as bear bash when your growl is on cooldown and a mob is on your healer. So yes, sometimes talents are difficult to choose from at lower levels, but in this case it's very clearcut, brutal impact much better than thick hide. Of course I never knew this so had thick hide for some time while leveling because I thought it was necessary (it is, but only in end game). > Speaking of health dropping, I made a macro to cancelform, take a health > pot then go back into bearform - does that work instantly enough that I'm [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > that safe to use while tanking I'll keep it for solo, cause if I need to > use a pot in catform chances are I'd be better off in bear ;-)) To be honest, I've got no idea. I've never done that because for a long time form changing triggered the global cooldown so using pots was impossible as a bear tank. At least that's how I remember it, but maybe I'm mistaken. Anyway, I never did it while leveling because of that belief and I haven't picked up the habit now. Now that gcd isn't triggered then yes I guess it may be possible, but IMO not at all safe against hard hitting mobs and especially bosses. I've shifted from cat to bear while a rogue is hitting me and been stunned in the process of the shift caught in caster form. Surprised me the first time that happened because I thought it was instant. But again, at lower levels, it shouldn't be a problem to do it, even if you receive one hit while in caster it shouldn't be too bad. > >> I recommend pulling with a wrath then quick moonfire, then shifting to > >> bear (furor is nice here), and enraging. With those damage spells [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > have to do is improve my coordination enough to make it work... I'm kinda > clumsy at times when it comes to chaining different abilities ;-) It's not always totally necessary, especially if you're moving between packs quickly and don't want to waste the rage you've got left over. If I'm comfortable with an instance and my party members I'll often just charge to the next group after marking so as not to waste rage. But it is nice for initial aggro. > >Oh and of course most of what I say here applies to tanking while > >leveling in Azeroth. As you get higher, not sure the exact level, you'll [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > hit harder there's less rage generation issues though so it doesn't matter > so much that way when I reach that stage. Exactly, except it's def/resi that get you uncrittable, but yes, later on mitigation and avoidance become much more important and you'll be getting lots of AP from gear anyway so rage generation isn't much of an issue. > >Also, I forgot to mention, your lots of your threat from bear comes from > >white hits too, so stacking str gives even more threat per hit and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > holding aggro on mobs I'd been hitting for as long as the others so I guess > damage helps a lot! Yes, later on your get lacerate which will be your main threat move which you spam on every gcd, except for when mangle (also later) is up, then use mangle. Lacerate stacks to cause bleed damage too, but you'll use it even on bleed immune mobs because of it's high threat generation. Faerie fire causes threat yes, but it doesn't stack, so it only generates threat on the first cast, or if it wears off and you recast. >> On Tue, 27 May 2008 21:48:57 +0100, "Mark (newsgroups)" >> >> The talent that increases threat is mandatory ofc which you have. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >hide for some time while leveling because I thought it was necessary >(it is, but only in end game). That's exactly what I've done, oops ;-) Guess a respec is called for! >> >Oh and of course most of what I say here applies to tanking while >> >leveling in Azeroth. As you get higher, not sure the exact level, you'll [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >getting lots of AP from gear anyway so rage generation isn't much of >an issue. Makes sense, in a lot of ways Outland is a whole different game gearwise, you end up going for different stats simply because different things are available and relevant. Mostly I hear about what's wanted at 70, have to learn that it's not always relevant in the low 20s! >> >Also, I forgot to mention, your lots of your threat from bear comes from >> >white hits too, so stacking str gives even more threat per hit and [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >only generates threat on the first cast, or if it wears off and you >recast. I get it, think lacerate is something like lvl 66 though, so a while off yet! Sounds well worth using if I ever get that high though, guess I'll see. I do intend to get every class to high levels and my druid is currently my lowest, so time to work on him :-) SignatureEU-Draenor: Balgair - Human Rogue (lvl 70) Naomh - Draenei Priest (lvl 70) Sagart - Undead Priest (lvl 70) Rosad - Human Warlock (lvl 70) Sealgair - Dwarf Hunter (lvl 70) Eilnich - Blood Elf Warlock (lvl 70) Beag - Dwarf Paladin (lvl 60) Level 21 bear... hum that was a long time ago, so maybe I was not doing what I'll advice here. > * What abilities are the main ones to use while tanking (obviously > considering my level)? Single mobs it appeared the general idea was > maul, maul, maul, I threw in demoralising roar on bosses but otherwise > there seemed little else I could do. About demoralising roar, I use it on every pull. I try to have it up all the time, it will help if you pull more than one mob, for the damage mitigation and for the inital aggro. > * Pulling. No ranged skills available in bearform. I probably > should've switched to caster and used moonfire or wrath more but it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > yet. Any tips meanwhile until I get that? I generally just bodypulled > or let the rogue throw knives, but it wasn't ideal. It will be easier with more points in furor. There is a blue leather helmet that I higly recommend, too (but you will have to wait until level 40, I think), that give you energy or rage when you shapeshift. It's a craft. So, with furor (and later with this helmet), you can pull with moonfire and switch to bear and still have some rage. If you are at the max range, and step back while the cooldown of moonfire run, you can cast another moonfire on another mob before switching to bear. It will help for initial aggro. I use faery fire when I don't want to loose the rage from the last fight. > * Talent points. So, I'm feral at the moment, 13 points spent to get > extra threat, 4% dodge/catform movement increase and feral charge. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > to tanking, so getting the most useful talents possible as early as > possible would be good. About OOC, I remember reading here that it was good to take it ASAP, then go feral, and to respec when you have enough points for mangle. When I leveled, I was full feral until mangle, then I put point in resto for OOC, and it worked, too. >Level 21 bear... hum that was a long time ago, so maybe I was not doing >what I'll advice here. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >the time, it will help if you pull more than one mob, for the damage >mitigation and for the inital aggro. Makes sense, I did try to use it on multimob pulls for the aggro but rage was a bit of an issue, it'll take me a little while to learn to manage that! >> * Pulling. No ranged skills available in bearform. I probably >> should've switched to caster and used moonfire or wrath more but it [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >40, I think), that give you energy or rage when you shapeshift. It's a >craft. Ah yes I remember that helmet, and my shaman can make it, so I'll go for that when I get high enough - thanks for the tip! :-) >So, with furor (and later with this helmet), you can pull with moonfire >and switch to bear and still have some rage. If you are at the max range, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >I use faery fire when I don't want to loose the rage from the last fight. Makes sense, another few levels and I'll have furor at 100% then and be able to try it properly. >> * Talent points. So, I'm feral at the moment, 13 points spent to get >> extra threat, 4% dodge/catform movement increase and feral charge. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >When I leveled, I was full feral until mangle, then I put point in resto >for OOC, and it worked, too. I'd heard that as well but I'm thinking some of the feral talents are very useful to have now, rather than waiting until I've got the resto ones spent so I think I'll do as you did and wait a little. Furor I'll get now because I'm seeing already how much I need it, but the others can wait. SignatureEU-Draenor: Balgair - Human Rogue (lvl 70) Naomh - Draenei Priest (lvl 70) Sagart - Undead Priest (lvl 70) Rosad - Human Warlock (lvl 70) Sealgair - Dwarf Hunter (lvl 70) Eilnich - Blood Elf Warlock (lvl 70) Beag - Dwarf Paladin (lvl 60) On May 28, 10:51 am, Catriona R <catrionarNOS...@totalise.co.uk> wrote: <snip> > >About OOC, I remember reading here that it was good to take it ASAP, then > >go feral, and to respec when you have enough points for mangle. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > so I think I'll do as you did and wait a little. Furor I'll get now because > I'm seeing already how much I need it, but the others can wait. I think I agree with this. I went for OoC as soon as I had the speed increase in cat form (very nice for traveling in early levels). I found the uninterruptable heals valuable when I got in trouble by pulling too many mobs and pushback makes it impossible to heal. However, I'm not certain it's truly necessary. The feral talents are also very nice to have early on, so if I leveled a druid again I'd try only getting furor then just going full feral until mangle. You've got mains with plenty gold, so respeccing shouldn't be an issue. I reckon try out just furor in the resto tree, then go feral. If you find you need uninterruptable heals when soloing then respec for that in resto and nab OoC while you're there. >On May 28, 10:51 am, Catriona R <catrionarNOS...@totalise.co.uk> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >If you find you need uninterruptable heals when soloing then respec >for that in resto and nab OoC while you're there. Sounds good yeah and tbh I can't see myself needing the uniterruptable heals solo - I've played a rogue for ages and they have no heals at all, catform seems pretty similar to a rogue. Plus I'm tauren so have warstomp to get a quick heal off if needed :-) Guess I'll see how it goes anyway! SignatureEU-Draenor: Balgair - Human Rogue (lvl 70) Naomh - Draenei Priest (lvl 70) Sagart - Undead Priest (lvl 70) Rosad - Human Warlock (lvl 70) Sealgair - Dwarf Hunter (lvl 70) Eilnich - Blood Elf Warlock (lvl 70) Beag - Dwarf Paladin (lvl 60) On May 28, 3:29 am, "Mark (newsgroups)" <marknewsgro...@yahoo.com> wrote: > On May 28, 10:51 am, Catriona R <catrionarNOS...@totalise.co.uk> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > If you find you need uninterruptable heals when soloing then respec > for that in resto and nab OoC while you're there. I went full feral until Mangle and then went into the Resto for Furor, Naturalist and then Omen of Clarity. I don't know why, but after I reached Faerie Fire Feral (30-ish) I rarely, if ever, had to shift out to heal. I leveled my cooking for the buff foods and kept my gear updated, but I didn't really need to heal myself that much. My druid is 70 now and still feral and I still love it. > * What abilities are the main ones to use while tanking (obviously > considering my level)? Single mobs it appeared the general idea was maul, > maul, maul, I threw in demoralising roar on bosses but otherwise there > seemed little else I could do. At your level there isn't that much you can use. Do note that Maul replaces your normal 'white' hit and doesn't give you any more threat. So use it only when you've starting to get too much threat. Swipe is instant and until you get lacerate it might even be decent skill to use against only one mob. But yeah, druids usually tank mostly by doing damage. For pulling you can either use Feral Faerie Fire, when you get it, to pull in bear form and save your accumulated rage. Or you can use your caster form spells. I myself usually start to cast Wrath, (And if I have more than one mob in a pull switch targets mid-cast) then Moonfire. As Wrath has a cast time it should hit around the same time as your Moonfire. Additional bonus with Moonfire is that it leaves the damage over time component on the target. When you switch to bear form the threat from it will be counted with the modifiers from bear form and Feral Instinct talent. :) Later if you have very large pulls Hurricane is a fun skill to use. (For mobs coming to you it's best to just position it so that it's farthest edge is just in range of the closest mob. That way they need to run through the aoe and you get more damage tics before they start to hit you) > * Casters... oh boy. I levelled partway through and stuck a point in feral > charge which helped no end but even so, what do you do when you've got 3 > casters, all standing apart from each other? Corner pull is I know the > ideal thing but a) no handy corners and b) low level pug, not even worth > hoping for them to wait for that ;-) They will be a pain even at lvl 70. Cornerpulls, other party members with interrupt/silence or just trying to charge to them. Fortunately at lower levels a healer or the dps classes can take few hits without trouble so might be best just to let the dps take one, and try to keep the others from hitting the healer. A good way to get initial aggro is to pull with Wrath and Moonfire. Usually on 3 mob pulls the dps should be able to kill the first one before the others turn on your healer. > * Talent points. So, I'm feral at the moment, 13 points spent to get extra > threat, 4% dodge/catform movement increase and feral charge. I've put 1 [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > experience as I'm totally new to tanking, so getting the most useful > talents possible as early as possible would be good. Furor is very good to take even at low levels. Omen of Clarity is quite fun talent too and adds to your threat and dps on longer fights quite well, but in my opinion it isn't that necessary while leveling and Feral tree has a lot of very good things to pick. Signature"Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society." -Mark Twain >> * What abilities are the main ones to use while tanking (obviously >> considering my level)? Single mobs it appeared the general idea was maul, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >when you've starting to get too much threat. Swipe is instant and until you >get lacerate it might even be decent skill to use against only one mob. Does only damage from white hits give rage? I'd assumed that all my damage would but it's sounding like my yellow attacks actually don't from howeveryones talking? if that's the case I'll be a lot more careful with using Maul as it'll be costing me a lot of rage! I did notice when trying to tank mobs in an escort quest yesterday that my rage stayed much higher when I only used swipe and white hits, not maul (the stupid NPC ran off and aggroed too many and died anyway but meh, at least I learned a little ;-)) >But yeah, druids usually tank mostly by doing damage. For pulling you can >either use Feral Faerie Fire, when you get it, to pull in bear form and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >to bear form the threat from it will be counted with the modifiers from bear >form and Feral Instinct talent. :) Ooh that's handy indeed! Once i get Furor maxed i'd also be starting out with 10 rage (instead of zero if I'd waited too long before the pull) so I guess I definitely want to get the hang of pulling as caster and shifting. >Later if you have very large pulls Hurricane is a fun skill to use. (For mobs >coming to you it's best to just position it so that it's farthest edge is just >in range of the closest mob. That way they need to run through the aoe and >you get more damage tics before they start to hit you) Thanks for that tip, I would've taken some time to think of that one! >> * Casters... oh boy. I levelled partway through and stuck a point in feral >> charge which helped no end but even so, what do you do when you've got 3 [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Wrath and Moonfire. Usually on 3 mob pulls the dps should be able to kill >the first one before the others turn on your healer. Yep, low level instances seem pretty forgiving, the group I was in had only 2 clothies with low health, the other 2 dps were more than capable of looking after themselves so I just made my priority keeping mobs off the clothies. Obviously while trying to hold aggro on everything but those caster pulls were a bit beyond me! >> * Talent points. So, I'm feral at the moment, 13 points spent to get extra >> threat, 4% dodge/catform movement increase and feral charge. I've put 1 [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >in my opinion it isn't that necessary while leveling and Feral tree has >a lot of very good things to pick. That's pretty much what I'm thinking, I'm 25 now and 3 points in Furor, already loving when it procs on shifting so definitely going for full points there, then it's back to feral. Feral faerie fire is going to be extremely useful for lots of things and there seem a bunch of other useful things that I can get pretty fast (rage from crits etc), I'm liking the look of wht's coming up. SignatureEU-Draenor: Balgair (70 Human Rogue) Naomh (70 Draenei Priest) Sagart (70 Undead Priest) Rosad (70 Human Warlock) Eilnich (70 Blood Elf Warlock) Sealgair (70 Dwarf Hunter) Beag (60 Dwarf Paladin) > Does only damage from white hits give rage? I'd assumed that all my > damage would but it's sounding like my yellow attacks actually don't > from howeveryones talking? if that's the case I'll be a lot more careful If bears are anything like warriors, then yes. Yellow attacks consume rage instead of supplying rage. SignatureJohn Gordon A is for Amy, who fell down the stairs gordon@panix.com B is for Basil, assaulted by bears -- Edward Gorey, "The Gashlycrumb Tinies" >> Does only damage from white hits give rage? I'd assumed that all my >> damage would but it's sounding like my yellow attacks actually don't >> from howeveryones talking? if that's the case I'll be a lot more careful > >If bears are anything like warriors, then yes. Yellow attacks consume >rage instead of supplying rage. Aha, I'd totally missed that... would also explain why my warrior never had any rage either till I went dualwield (at which point I guess offhand white hits made up a little for me spamming heroic strike constantly... doh). You can tell which 2 classes I've played least that I didn't know how rage worked after all this time :-P SignatureEU-Draenor: Balgair (70 Human Rogue) Naomh (70 Draenei Priest) Sagart (70 Undead Priest) Rosad (70 Human Warlock) Eilnich (70 Blood Elf Warlock) Sealgair (70 Dwarf Hunter) Beag (60 Dwarf Paladin) > In <6a8efeF35bs9...@mid.individual.net> Catriona R <catrionarNOS...@totalise.co.uk> writes: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > gor...@panix.com B is for Basil, assaulted by bears > -- Edward Gorey, "The Gashlycrumb Tinies" True, but we get a talent that when a crit happens (any crit) we get +5rage. This is very important to get since at endgame after you get around 15k hp and 25k armour and uncrittable (all unbuffed) you will start to stack more and more agility since dodge is a bears best friend, and that alse incidentally gives us bettter and better crit chance. On May 27, 12:29 pm, Catriona R <catrionarNOS...@totalise.co.uk> wrote: > Any other tips/suggestions? :-) For leveling, you want feral swiftness as soon as possible, even before cat form is available, so you have it when you get cat form. +30% movement will give you more xp per hour than any other stat. After that, you want the improved leader of the pack aura as fast as you can get it. Even at the expense of 0 talent points in any other tree. After you get the healing aura on crit, you'll hardly ever stop to drink or eat. If you have to respec at level 40 to get the aura, so be it, and respec. But it's better to just put all your points into feral, and just work towards the aura, as almost all of the talents are useful. Next, from level 20 to 55, you're a cat first and foremost. Yeah, I know you can bear tank, but your gear should be cat gear all the way. That's how you'll end up spending almost all your solo time, and cat gear is good enough to tank with at low levels, as long as you're a few levels higher than the typical mob in the dungeon. Ie, if you're going to tank Maraudon, do it at level 50, not at level 45. Your cat gear by level 50 should be sufficient to tank the place. Just make sure all your cat gear has some stamina. About level 55, the mobs start to hit hard enough that you'll want to bear it up, but until then, you're a cat. -- // T.Hsu >On May 27, 12:29 pm, Catriona R <catrionarNOS...@totalise.co.uk> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >before cat form is available, so you have it when you get cat form. >+30% movement will give you more xp per hour than any other stat. It's not actually possible to get it before catform, given it's an 11 point talent and catform is lvl 20 but yeah, I have it now. Very useful indeed, not that I care about xp per hour, it's a game not a race :-P >Next, from level 20 to 55, you're a cat first and foremost. Yeah, I >know you can bear tank, but your gear should be cat gear all the way. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >About level 55, the mobs start to hit hard enough that you'll want to >bear it up, but until then, you're a cat. Well I'm going to try and be useful as both if possible, perfectly possible to have some items of gear that I change according to what I'm doing. But yeah cat for soloing is pretty clear... have you got any tips on good use of abilities solo? It was simple at first but I suddenly got a bunch more abilities and I'm not sure which to use when: claw, rip, tigers fury, rake, shred... haven't got enough energy to use them all! Ok, shred is used from behind, so that's rogue backstab equivalent and soloing it's basically an opener from steath (until I get the cheapshot/ambush equivalents), but which to use of claw and rake, and when to use tigers fury? And is rip worth it at all given by the time I get a reasonable number of combo points the mob isn't going to live close to 12 more seconds anyway? I see in a few more levels I get ferocious bite (looks like eviscerate equivalent) that looks much more useful. All the druid guides I see are only about lvl 70 grouping not best use of abilities while levelling and solo, doh! SignatureEU-Draenor: Balgair (70 Human Rogue) Naomh (70 Draenei Priest) Sagart (70 Undead Priest) Rosad (70 Human Warlock) Eilnich (70 Blood Elf Warlock) Sealgair (70 Dwarf Hunter) Beag (60 Dwarf Paladin) > Well I'm going to try and be useful as both if possible, perfectly > possible to have some items of gear that I change according to what I'm > doing. But yeah cat for soloing is pretty clear... I think it is pretty good to start gearing up a different dps and tanking sets early. (And if you're interested, healing set too. :) At earlier levels they might not differ that much, but the further you level the more specialized they get and you will most likely have occasional use for them. Just decide on the priority of the roles. > have you got any tips > on good use of abilities solo? It was simple at first but I suddenly got [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > cheapshot/ambush equivalents), but which to use of claw and rake, and > when to use tigers fury? If you find yourself as a dps while someone else is tanking, Shred to 4 or 5 combo points and Rip. For soloing Rip is usually not that useful, as mobs tend to die a lot before it'll do that much damage. If I remember correctly Rake and Tiger's Fury are waste of energy even at those levels when you get them. But the other skills do have some use while leveling, just test them out when you get them. The big things for soloing as a cat are Pounce and Mangle. when you get them, start with Pounce, then Mangle, and Shred until the target recovers from the stun. At that point you usually have 3 or 4 combo points and normal mobs around 50% health. If not grab few more combo points and either Rip if you think it'll end up doing more damage than Shred. (First tic is 3s after its application and every 3s afterwards, so usually for non-elites not that useful. :) For elites or bigger groups, I usually start with cat and try to get Rip going and then switch to bear form for added protection. Just stunning or Warstomping to get some heals going (and/or Innervate) and back to bear. For me it did take quite a lot of practice to estimate how soon I had to pop to caster form an heal though. :) Signature"Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society." -Mark Twain >> Well I'm going to try and be useful as both if possible, perfectly >> possible to have some items of gear that I change according to what I'm [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >specialized they get and you will most likely have occasional use for >them. Just decide on the priority of the roles. Yup, I'm used to that from levelling priests, even from low levels I'll have at least a couple of items with extra healing in my bags. Think I'll probably set my druid up as concentrating on cat and bear and skip the healing gear for now, simply for lack of bag space - my poor UD priest is now using about 30 bags slots for carrying various bits of armour around and I'd like to for once have a character with some space in their bags (my warlock loses a bag to shards and half a bag to pvp gear so isn't much better off) >> have you got any tips >> on good use of abilities solo? It was simple at first but I suddenly got [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >bear. For me it did take quite a lot of practice to estimate how soon >I had to pop to caster form an heal though. :) Thanks for that, think I'm a while away from Mangle but it'll be interesting learning it when I get it! SignatureEU-Draenor: Balgair (70 Human Rogue) Naomh (70 Draenei Priest) Sagart (70 Undead Priest) Rosad (70 Human Warlock) Eilnich (70 Blood Elf Warlock) Sealgair (70 Dwarf Hunter) Beag (60 Dwarf Paladin) CR> Yup, I'm used to that from levelling priests, even from low levels CR> I'll have at least a couple of items with extra healing in my bags. CR> Think CR> I'll probably set my druid up as concentrating on cat and bear and CR> skip the healing gear for now, simply for lack of bag space - my CR> poor UD priest is now using about 30 bags slots for carrying various CR> bits of armour around and I'd like to for once have a character with CR> some space in their bags (my warlock loses a bag to shards and half CR> a bag to pvp gear so isn't much better off) Druid is by far the worst char for bag space, only feral druids carry tank gear, cat dps gear, pvp gear, heal gear.... and you can add some resistance gear many times to that too :S Just a few tips, dont ever use maul unless you have 50 or more rage, maul same as heroic strike is just a rage dump. I use it a lot only in raid boss fights where whatever you do the rage bar is always on 100. Ferocius Bite is the equivalent of eviscerate BUT with a big difference, it will consume all your energy when used and transform it into dmg, but the dmg gained isnt worth the energy loss. So if you have 5 combo points on a target and 100 energy it's better to do 1-2 more mangle/shred than ferocius bite than feroicus bit with 100 energy and consume it all... You probably know that mangle increases shred dmg by 30% and all bleeds too ( I didnt know at first :S ) >CR> Yup, I'm used to that from levelling priests, even from low levels >CR> I'll have at least a couple of items with extra healing in my bags. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >gear, cat dps gear, pvp gear, heal gear.... and you can add some resistance >gear many times to that too :S Ouch :-( >Just a few tips, dont ever use maul unless you have 50 or more rage, maul >same as heroic strike is just a rage dump. I use it a lot only in raid boss >fights where whatever you do the rage bar is always on 100. Will try and learn that one, I've always been used to non-rage classes so it takes some getting used to, but I can see it's a lesson I need to learn! :-) >Ferocius Bite is the equivalent of eviscerate BUT with a big difference, it >will consume all your energy when used and transform it into dmg, but the >dmg gained isnt worth the energy loss. So if you have 5 combo points on a >target and 100 energy it's better to do 1-2 more mangle/shred than ferocius >bite than feroicus bit with 100 energy and consume it all... Ahh... ok that is not so useful then! One to use carefully I guess. >You probably know that mangle increases shred dmg by 30% and all bleeds too >( I didnt know at first :S ) Didn't know about the shred part nope, although I was aware it affected bleeds as I always tried to use rupture more on my rogue when a feral druid was present because of it. Didn't know the exact details though! SignatureEU-Draenor: Balgair (70 Human Rogue) Naomh (70 Draenei Priest) Sagart (70 Undead Priest) Rosad (70 Human Warlock) Eilnich (70 Blood Elf Warlock) Sealgair (70 Dwarf Hunter) Beag (60 Dwarf Paladin) Another point about the tanking bear : armor. Since your armor is multiplied to get your armor in bear form, it's interesting to have items that give extra armor. I mean items that do not give armor usually, like weapons, trinkets... At higher level, Braxxis staff for instance is very good (IIRC, level 64, 500 armor x 4 in bear: 2000 armor.) At lower level, there is a staff sold by two NPC (Urumir in Shattrath, and Zarena Cromwind in Booty Bay) : level 34, 100 armor, +6 to all resist. It's in limited stock. There are other weapons (for a druid, only hammers and staffs, since you cannot use axes or swords). If you are an enchanter, there is a trinket you can create at level 50 (linked). If you are a blacksmith, there is another trinket at level 40 (linked when crafted, too) There is a ring on Archaedas in Uldaman (50 armor and random stats), another one if you escort the turtle in Tanaris, a low level +30 armor ring made by jewelcrafters. >>CR> Yup, I'm used to that from levelling priests, even from low levels >>CR> I'll have at least a couple of items with extra healing in my bags. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Ouch :-( :) For the longest time my druid was always feral, but I quite often off-tanked our occasional Karazhan runs and got a lot of healing gear that no one else wanted. Eventually I switched to a full time Resto spec and found that I really need that boomkin gear for soloing with it. At the moment my ClosetGnome has different sets for feral dps, feral tanking, feral pvp, resto pvp, resto max output, resto with more regen, and boomkin. :) Fortunately I never went with him to any fight needing additional resistance sets. But yeah, if you really like all the different aspects of a druid, you really need all the biggest bags you can get. ;D Signature"Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society." -Mark Twain >>>Druid is by far the worst char for bag space, only feral druids carry tank >>>gear, cat dps gear, pvp gear, heal gear.... and you can add some resistance [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >But yeah, if you really like all the different aspects of a druid, you >really need all the biggest bags you can get. ;D Oh dear, and here was me thinking it was bad enough having different sets for solo, group and pvp on my priest (and almost entirely separate sets at that, the solo set is completely different and the other two only share about 5 items now) :-P As a serious packrat I'm going to have enormous trouble holding any more, as it is the priest has all 7 bankslots bought, filled with 18-slot bags (20-slots on me) or professions bags, and the bank is full while my own bags usually have maybe 18 slots free if I'm lucky... which don't last long when I add mage water, mined stuff, trash drops etc. WTB extra bank slots, I'd love to be able to go out and just mine or fish non-stop for a bit but I have to stop to empty bags very fast indeed. And yes I have a banker alt, doesn't help on soulbound stuff and I like the stuff I'm using in professions to be on the right character.... SignatureEU-Draenor: Balgair (70 Human Rogue) Naomh (70 Draenei Priest) Sagart (70 Undead Priest) Rosad (70 Human Warlock) Eilnich (70 Blood Elf Warlock) Sealgair (70 Dwarf Hunter) Beag (60 Dwarf Paladin) >> have you got any tips >> on good use of abilities solo? It was simple at first but I suddenly got [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > when you get them. But the other skills do have some use while leveling, > just test them out when you get them. As Miika writes, typical DPS rotation for higher levels is Mangle for the debuff, 4 to 5 combo points, Rip. Too bad it relies on mobs that bleed so much. On a Kara run my cat DPS wasn't noteworthy except for the Prince fight, where I jumped to top DPS even as melee :-). > The big things for soloing as a cat are Pounce and Mangle. when you get > them, start with Pounce, then Mangle, and Shred until the target recovers [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > 3s after its application and every 3s afterwards, so usually for non-elites > not that useful. :) I think the talent for longer stuns was mentioned in this thread already. The longer stun often allows another Shred before the stun runs out and is therefore very useful for soloing. > For elites or bigger groups, I usually start with cat and try to get Rip > going and then switch to bear form for added protection. Just stunning > or Warstomping to get some heals going (and/or Innervate) and back to > bear. For me it did take quite a lot of practice to estimate how soon > I had to pop to caster form an heal though. :) Yeah, heal early when it's obvious that you're going to need it. And don't forget Barkskin like me :-) SignatureErich E> As Miika writes, typical DPS rotation for higher levels is Mangle for E> the debuff, 4 to 5 combo points, Rip. Too bad it relies on mobs that E> bleed so much. On a Kara run my cat DPS wasn't noteworthy except for E> the Prince fight, where I jumped to top DPS even as melee :-). All mobs bleed since a few patches back, you can even make robots bleed... > E> As Miika writes, typical DPS rotation for higher levels is Mangle for > E> the debuff, 4 to 5 combo points, Rip. Too bad it relies on mobs that > E> bleed so much. On a Kara run my cat DPS wasn't noteworthy except for > E> the Prince fight, where I jumped to top DPS even as melee :-). > > All mobs bleed since a few patches back, you can even make robots bleed... What? When did this happen? That's a big change and a huge boost to cat dps on many bosses. Can't believe I missed that. Got a link? Mn> What? When did this happen? That's a big change and a huge boost to Mn> cat dps on many bosses. Can't believe I missed that. Got a link? a.. Non-corporeal Undead and Mechanical creatures are now susceptible to bleed effects. a.. Elemental creatures are no longer explicitly immune to poison and disease effects. Elementals with nature school immunities will still be immune to nature-based poisons, however. http://www.wow-europe.com/en/patchnotes/ So now even many mobs that were faerie fire immune are not immune anymore (it is a nature spell), only 1 type of elemental is nature immune now to faerie fire. > E> As Miika writes, typical DPS rotation for higher levels is Mangle for > E> the debuff, 4 to 5 combo points, Rip. Too bad it relies on mobs that > E> bleed so much. On a Kara run my cat DPS wasn't noteworthy except for > E> the Prince fight, where I jumped to top DPS even as melee :-). > > All mobs bleed since a few patches back, you can even make robots bleed... Thanks for confirming that. I read about it in the patch notes, but didn't have an opportunity to find out. SignatureErich |
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