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Game Forum / Role Playing Games / Warcraft / May 2008

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Looking for advice on BGs, Honor, and PvP

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cryptoguy - 05 May 2008 22:32 GMT
My main is Vamoose (Mischa) a 63 ret Pally.

He mostly solos, so does world quests around his level, but
occasionally
pugs or goes with guildies for group quests and instances. Most
recently, non
heroic Ramparts.

My guildies checked Vam out, and told me he's woefully underdressed.
Their
advice was to do BGs to pick up honor until he gets to 70, then get
the best
BG pvp gear he can. The goal was to gear him up so he can do Kara when
he
dings 70.

Well, I tried it this weekend, and found it unbelievably annoying and
tedious.
At a personal level, I suck at PvP, and between that, low gear, and
being
low in the level group (61-69 or 61-70), Vam dies a lot - at least a
dozen times in
a typical AV run.

Its also annoying that every game is the same - there's little
strategic
thinking, and the same people complaining LOUDLY that there's no
strategic thinking. If I try defending a site, I feel like a chump
forgoing
honor when the Alliance is losing (which it does a lot).

If I get into contact with Horde, I get Stunned, Sapped, Feared, and
DoTed so quickly and often that it's no fun at all. You'd think I'd do
well as a healer, but a big blue draenai with a huge flaming sword
attracts a lot of attention, and I get interrupted all the time - not
to
mention that I have a lot of trouble targetting players who need it in
the furball that is a melee.

Questions:

1. Is this the best route to uber gear before 70? Can I do
better with quest drops? I notice there is some very nice
gear in the CoT, available for rep and gold. It looks like its
going to take a long, long time to get enough honor to get
the good lvl 70 stuff.

2. How can I improve my PvP? (Yes, I know: 'practice, practice').
Is there a decent tutorial somewhere?

3. Is the quest that involves 4 mark turnins for
extra honor worth it, or should I keep the marks
separate? I try to be smart about which BG to visit
when, but still try to hit all of them.

Any help would be welcomed.

pt
LoTekGuru - 06 May 2008 01:06 GMT
As a level 63, I would think your time would be better spent leveling to 70.
At 63, your honor gains aren't going to be as great as they are at 70 simply
because, as you stated, you're out-leveled AND out-geared by the other
players so all your honor will be pretty much objective-based, and won't
have the PVP kill honor to add to the total.  I would get to 70, THEN get
into PVP... by then, you SHOULD be at least honored with the major factions,
so you can buy the blue rep-based PVP gear, which is a really good starting
point as it gives some decent PVP stats right off the bat.  I think it was
someone on here that said they used the rep-based PVP gear as their starting
healing gear for Kara as soon as they dinged 70, which gave them a really
good +heal bonus with the full set... I think each piece costs about 20g, so
that's a pretty cheap way to go for a starting healing set as well as PVP
set that you can use to grind honor for the S1 (and possibly S2 stuff,
depending on when you hit 70).

This is the Healadin PVP set, which gives you 168 +healing, 127 resilience
(with set bouns), and a HoJ cooldown reduction of 10 seconds...  PVP is all
about beating the snot out of someone while they're helpless, as I'm sure
you've found out by now!

http://www.wowhead.com/?itemset=751
Jarre@spamless.com - 06 May 2008 01:29 GMT
I also have 63 ret pally..and my gear just sucks at the moment :)

Biggest reason for poor survival in bg is our lowlvl and lousy gear (there is nothing wrong in our "skillz" obviously ;)).

I haven't bothered to enter bg after lvl 60, but I was thinking to give a try when I ding 64. we are losing anyway so no harm done ;)

main thing is to try to stay in groups. "strength is in numbers" or something like that. you can use bubble & stunns to buy some time to heal yourself or your allies.

you can also use bubble to attack for example enemy healer.. it'll give 12secs to hit the healer without interruptions.
ave - 06 May 2008 10:34 GMT
I would also agree, you should just level to 70 as fast as possible. At
level 63 you are near the bottom of the food chain (60-69 and 61-70 in av).
I wouldn't expect to join a battle group and do well until you're at least
in the top four levels (so 66+) preferably the top two (68+).

> At a personal level, I suck at PvP, and between that, low gear, and
> being low in the level group (61-69 or 61-70), Vam dies a lot - at least a
> dozen times in a typical AV run.

Just to note, to help reduce the feeling of impotence... *Everyone* sucks at
pvp when they first play it, you begin to get better when you start to learn
more about the classes in the game and what counters you have against them.

I must confess, my knowledge of paladin pvp is woefully inadequate.
Depending on how serious you're expecting to take pvp games, I would suggest
visiting www.warcraftmovies.com and downloading some of the higher rated
paladin pvp movies. After watching some movies you may come across players
who's names stick in your head (because they impressed you). Then armory
them and compare gear/build and see if there's much you can take away that
could be beneficial to yourself.

As a healer you should be travelling around with a group of people, and they
should be trying to help you out when you get attacked. If that is just not
happening, you could try respeccing a bit more dps centric build (such as
retribution) for the last couple of levels. But I realise that you just
might not be interested in that, only really worth it if you're dying
because no-one helps or so.

> 3. Is the quest that involves 4 mark turnins for
> extra honor worth it, or should I keep the marks
> separate? I try to be smart about which BG to visit
> when, but still try to hit all of them.

It's worth it if your bags are overflowing with tokens. Before this quest
was introduced I had 100 tokens from each battleground and my mail box was
overflowing with more tokens. It can also be worth it if there's a
particular item you want. But if you're not stacked with tokens, it's
probably better to save them in case there's something you want to buy with
them.

ave
steve.kaye - 06 May 2008 10:59 GMT
> > 3. Is the quest that involves 4 mark turnins for
> > extra honor worth it, or should I keep the marks
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> probably better to save them in case there's something you want to buy with
> them.

I dinged 70 with my Rogue this weekend and I've been going for the
quick fix for gear upgrades.  I had more than enough AB and WSG tokens
for what I want to buy initially and so I've been doing the hand ins
to get the honour that I needed.  Now that I've spent all my WSG
tokens on hand ins and gear I've gone back to grinding AV for the next
pieces that I need.  I'm sure that I'll regret it when I come to grind
out the 50 EotS marks that I need for other pieces.  :)

One thing that I'm wondering is how I should spend my points and
marks.  I've been going for the accessories before the S1 gear because
I don't want to get and spend the honour only to have S2 gear become
available shortly afterwards.  I also have the blue PvP gear from the
rep vendors to see me through.  The one thing that is causing me
doubts is the weapons - they are a big upgrade over what I have now
and I wonder if I should just get them ASAP.  Rogues are very
dependant upon their weapons so I'm in a bit of a dilema.  Any
thoughts?

steve.kaye
Shammy - 06 May 2008 11:09 GMT
sk> One thing that I'm wondering is how I should spend my points and
sk> marks.  I've been going for the accessories before the S1 gear
sk> because
sk> I don't want to get and spend the honour only to have S2 gear become
sk> available shortly afterwards.  I also have the blue PvP gear from
sk> the rep vendors to see me through.  The one thing that is causing me
sk> doubts is the weapons - they are a big upgrade over what I have now
sk> and I wonder if I should just get them ASAP.  Rogues are very
sk> dependant upon their weapons so I'm in a bit of a dilema.  Any
sk> thoughts?

I did same as you and I got ring, boots, bracers immediatly cause it's items
that will have a rating requirement anyway...
For the weapons, 1 night I got really tired of pvping with crap weapons like
2 weeks ago and I just went to buy S1 fist weapons and it made a HUGE
difference that is keeping me in BG and I have no problem grinding for the
rest of the gear. However I didnt enchant the S1 weapons and I was planning
to get S2 before putting moongoose (sp?) on them and I'm still not sure if I
get maces or fist weapons from S2 :p
steve.kaye - 06 May 2008 11:32 GMT
> sk> One thing that I'm wondering is how I should spend my points and
> sk> marks.  I've been going for the accessories before the S1 gear
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> to get S2 before putting moongoose (sp?) on them and I'm still not sure if I
> get maces or fist weapons from S2 :p

That's another thing that I'm in a dilema about.  Looks are important
to me and the only weapons that I like the look of are the daggers.
But I'm not a dagger rogue :/  I'm a hemo + shadowstep rogue so any of
the weapons are good for me except the daggers.  Are daggers a lot
worse than the slower weapons for hemo?  I can't see much of a
difference between the maces, swords and fist weapons.  Are any of
them particularly better than the others for hemo?

steve.kaye
ave - 06 May 2008 11:45 GMT
> Are daggers a lot worse than the slower weapons for hemo?

Dagger's are awful for hemo, unfortunately. It is the damage range rather
than their speed, and because daggers are a lot faster their damage range is
a lot lower. So hemo will hit for a lot less with a dagger.

For example, to have the same dps. A slower weapon needs a bigger damage
range to compensate for their slower hit rate. Conversely, faster weapons
needs a smaller damage range because they hit a lot more often. Hemo (and
typically other specials) are instant hit, so neither their dps nor speed
factors into how hard the hemo attack hits for. Only their damage range,
which is why slower weapons are better, because they typically have a higher
damage due to their slower speed.

> I can't see much of a difference between the maces, swords and fist
> weapons.
> Are any of them particularly better than the others for hemo?

None are especially good over the others for hemo, if you want to future
proof you character (in-case harp or combat builds make a comeback, dont see
it happening but I can't see the future) get maces. I personally go for
swords just for aesthetic reasons :)

steve.kaye
steve.kaye - 06 May 2008 12:00 GMT
> > I can't see much of a difference between the maces, swords and fist
> > weapons.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> it happening but I can't see the future) get maces. I personally go for
> swords just for aesthetic reasons :)

The maces are the worst looking of them - they look like something I
could draw - just a cube with spikes on a stick.  I think that it's
50/50 between the awful looking swords or the awful looking fist
weapons.  The biggest visual issue is the size - my dainty female
blood elf couldn't lift those weapons if her life depended on it.  :)
I think the fist weapons probably look the least awful so I'll go for
them.

steve.kaye
ave - 06 May 2008 11:38 GMT
> 2 weeks ago and I just went to buy S1 fist weapons and it made a HUGE
> difference that is keeping me in BG and I have no problem grinding for the
> rest of the gear.

It is probably worth stressing this, if you have worse weapons than the pvp
one's, and you're a melee class (eg. rogue or warrior). The pvp weapon is
the single biggest upgrade available for you. I had decent blue weapons
once. And I eventually decided to buy a mainhand sword. I saw an immediate
and noticable change to my performance in bg and I was fairly shocked at how
much improved my character was.

Not saying get those first or anything, but they typically are a huge
improvement on your character.

> However I didnt enchant the S1 weapons and I was planning to get S2 before
> putting moongoose (sp?) on them and I'm still not sure if I get maces or
> fist weapons from S2 :p

I have mongoose on both main hand and offhand weapon, double mongoose also
makes a huge difference. At this time, though, I would try saving honor and
tokens until you reach honor\token cap, then buy something. Then reach cap
again, etc. So that when season 4 arrives you can buy pretty much whatever
you want straight away.

ave
neithskye - 06 May 2008 19:09 GMT
> My guildies checked Vam out, and told me he's woefully underdressed.
> Their advice was to do BGs to pick up honor until he gets to 70, then get
> the best BG pvp gear he can. The goal was to gear him up so he can do Kara when
> he dings 70.

My main is a Paladin, although a Holy one. I don't know very much
about Retribution, except that it is very gear-dependent, but are you
sure PvP gear will help Vam in Kara? A lot of PvP gear does not fare
well in PvE - for example, the Holy set has zero Mp5. During very long
battles, this is very bad.

Again, I don't know Ret, but if you aren't enjoying PvP there's no
sense grinding to get a bunch of gear that might not even help you
when you could just perhaps run some instances at lvl 70 and obtain
much better gear.

> Well, I tried it this weekend, and found it unbelievably annoying and
> tedious. At a personal level, I suck at PvP, and between that, low gear, and
> being low in the level group (61-69 or 61-70), Vam dies a lot - at least a
> dozen times in a typical AV run.

> If I get into contact with Horde, I get Stunned, Sapped, Feared, and
> DoTed so quickly and often that it's no fun at all. You'd think I'd do
> well as a healer, but a big blue draenai with a huge flaming sword
> attracts a lot of attention, and I get interrupted all the time.

I just dinged 60,000 HKs, so I've done my share of BGs. People will
disagree with me, but Paladins have it very bad in PvP right now.

I'm not familiar with Ret. It can dish out insane amounts of burst
damage, but lacks things like interrupts and a Mortal Strike effect.
Most healers will laugh at Ret Paladins.

As for Holy, in a nutshell: one school of magic + casted heals + no CC
= bad.

With one school of magic, no other class gets locked out like a
Paladin does due to things like Counterspell, Kick, etc. Your entire
UI goes gray - you can't even bubble. With no heal-over-time heals and
no instant casts save for Holy Shock (which you won't have, since
you're Ret), which is like Mana Burning yourself, our two heals are
casted. With every class in the game, except for, ironically,
Paladins, having multiple ways to interrupt, good luck trying to get a
heal off.

Paladins lack offensive skills. If another healing class sees I'm
healing: a Priest can Mana Burn, Fear and Mass Dispel me, a Druid can
Bash, Feral Charge or Cyclone me, which I can't even bubble out of,
and a Shaman can spam shocks at me, interrupting my heals, as well as
Purging my blessings, Light's Grace, etc. Seeing another healer, a
Paladin can . . . Hammer of Justice once every 60 seconds; it usually
has a 50% resist rate.

I could go on and on, but to conclude. If you're only PvPing to get
Ret gear please do some reasearch to see if it will help you. It could
very well, I don't know, my PvP gear did just fine for the first few
runs of Kara until I collected the +healing Plate stuff from there. My
point is, there's no sense doing something you're clearly not enjoying
if it won't be worth it in the long run.

Yes, being lvl 63 among 70s isn't helping. Get a PvP trinket, and the
better one if possible - it allows you to remove effects that cause
you to lose control of your character every two minutes.

Perhaps re-spec Holy for a while. Prot and Ret do just fine healing,
but you can pick up Holy Shock. It's a total mana drain and has a
ridiculous 15-second cooldown, but is the only heal we can cast
instantly and while moving. I have a macro to cast Divine Favor then
Holy Shock - that instant 3,100 heal has saved my behind plenty of
times in PvP.

Always stay with a group - Holy Paladins anyway are kind of weak 1-
on-1. You're Alliance, and this is AV which, with lots more people
than AB or EotS, makes it more difficult to notice what each
individual is doing. However, my Paladin is a Blood Elf, and at least
Horde-side, when people notice that he is healing, they will protect
him.

With better gear it will become less frustrating, although if you have
eight enemies on you, not much is going to help. My Holy Paladin in
his PvP gear has close to 400 resilience, +1,500 healing, 10K mana,
11K life, and 15K armor. He can go an entire night of BGs and not die
once. Of course he can't kill much in his own, but he can last long
enough for help to arrive.

Oh, dear. I told myself I wouldn't babble. So much for that. :P

> Questions:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> going to take a long, long time to get enough honor to get
> the good lvl 70 stuff.

The best thing to perhaps do here is to go to some sites like
Thottbot, Wowhead, etc., and research what drops from instances, what
is obtainable from reputation, etc., and decide for yourself.

> 2. How can I improve my PvP? (Yes, I know: 'practice, practice').
> Is there a decent tutorial somewhere?

Turn with your mouse if you don't already. I have never played a FPS
before, never strafed with the mouse, and found it really hard
learning to turn with the mouse in WoW. I still have trouble with it.

Bind all the skills you use to hotkeys so you don't have to click.
Bind, I dunno, Blessing of Freedom to "Z", Hammer of Justice to
Shift-"Z", etc., so that you can always be turning with the mouse and
hotclicking spells.

You might find the WoW PvP Forums on the WoW Forums helpful. Sometimes
amongst all the angry posts are threads that I've learned from - how
to kill X as Y posts.

Try dueling. Ask the person after what you could have done
differently. Sometimes I discuss my fights with people and say, "I
can't believe you didn't use "Whatever Skill!", and they say, "Ohhh!
That's what I was supposed to do there".

Finally, as a Holy Paladin anyway (I know you're Ret, but you're still
healing), get used to the idea that some classes will just WTFPWN you
- a Priest with Mana Burn and Mass Dispel, for example. The game is
not balanced 1-vs-1. Unfortunately, there are zero classes that
Paladins WTFPWN back.

(I'm really not trying to be a downer or discourage you - just don't
think it's entirely all you. Over in the Paladin Forums I saw a link
to some recent Arena representation charts on the Tournament server.
In 2v2, Paladins are at 8.7% vs. Druids at 139.9%; in 3v3, Paladins
are at 17.4% vs. Druids at 156.6%; and in 5v5, Paladins are at 72.7%
vs. Druids at 218.2%. So the combined representation of Paladins in
all three brackets is less than Druids in any one given bracket. The
Paladin class has glaring problems that even being the most uber
player won't help.)

> 3. Is the quest that involves 4 mark turnins for
> extra honor worth it, or should I keep the marks
> separate? I try to be smart about which BG to visit
> when, but still try to hit all of them.

If you have specific gear in mind, research how much honour and how
many tokens you'll need. If you dislike PvP, with some gear requiring
40 tokens of a certain BG, like 40 AV tokens for the trinkets, you may
find you get those 40 tokens then never go back to that BG. If you end
up continuing with PvP, see what you have more of later - honour or
tokens - and make your decision then.

--
Jill
BLMX - 06 May 2008 22:42 GMT
-If you really, really desire to be accepted by your guild then I
suppose trying to do what they say would be one choice.  Another is to
just play the game the way it is fun for you.

-If you decide to keep PVP'in, learn the BG maps, it's more fun when
you know what you're supposed to be doing and where to be at any given
point in time.  Try to go with a RL friend and voicechat/vent/phone -
def more fun.  If no RLF's online, just ask for the "baddest tough
guy" in the BG to identify him/herself.  This alone is funny.  "Who's
the best PVP'er here?"  heh.  Pick one of the replys (with high HP)
and tell that person you'll be their heabot.  At least you'll have
that one person watchin' out for you.  Don't take it to heart if they
blame you for their death.  You need the practice.  Taking the blame,
that is. ;)   Alternatively, just follow the "main" group and heal
until you get attacked, then bubble and run into a cluster of your
team, heal some more until someone peels your attacker off or you
die.

-Ignore the BG whiners, if there's no useful info in their chat, just
ignore them.  Every BG, horde/ally alike have 1 or more knuckleheads
whom, after having their face torn off, proclaim "you guys all suck!".

-The BG gear can be quite good, particularly for healing & mana regen,
get those items first.  Budget out your Marks so you know exactly how
many of each you need for the items that are the biggest upgrades for
you.  Keep in mind that not every piece of gear that's Purple is
better than a lesser color. Wear the gear that fits the situation.

-Mods:  Clique & Grid are nice for healers if you don't have a fav
already.

-Make sure you are confident with healing 5-man dungeons before doing
Kara.  If you got decent gear but aren't a competent healer, welp,
that won't make anyone happy, particularly you.

-And as someone else mentioned, dueling (esp. with RL friends) is a
good way to practice PVP.  Someone you can talk to about it
afterwards.
 
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