Game Forum / Role Playing Games / Warcraft / May 2008
Looking for advice on BGs, Honor, and PvP
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cryptoguy - 05 May 2008 22:32 GMT My main is Vamoose (Mischa) a 63 ret Pally.
He mostly solos, so does world quests around his level, but occasionally pugs or goes with guildies for group quests and instances. Most recently, non heroic Ramparts.
My guildies checked Vam out, and told me he's woefully underdressed. Their advice was to do BGs to pick up honor until he gets to 70, then get the best BG pvp gear he can. The goal was to gear him up so he can do Kara when he dings 70.
Well, I tried it this weekend, and found it unbelievably annoying and tedious. At a personal level, I suck at PvP, and between that, low gear, and being low in the level group (61-69 or 61-70), Vam dies a lot - at least a dozen times in a typical AV run.
Its also annoying that every game is the same - there's little strategic thinking, and the same people complaining LOUDLY that there's no strategic thinking. If I try defending a site, I feel like a chump forgoing honor when the Alliance is losing (which it does a lot).
If I get into contact with Horde, I get Stunned, Sapped, Feared, and DoTed so quickly and often that it's no fun at all. You'd think I'd do well as a healer, but a big blue draenai with a huge flaming sword attracts a lot of attention, and I get interrupted all the time - not to mention that I have a lot of trouble targetting players who need it in the furball that is a melee.
Questions:
1. Is this the best route to uber gear before 70? Can I do better with quest drops? I notice there is some very nice gear in the CoT, available for rep and gold. It looks like its going to take a long, long time to get enough honor to get the good lvl 70 stuff.
2. How can I improve my PvP? (Yes, I know: 'practice, practice'). Is there a decent tutorial somewhere?
3. Is the quest that involves 4 mark turnins for extra honor worth it, or should I keep the marks separate? I try to be smart about which BG to visit when, but still try to hit all of them.
Any help would be welcomed.
pt
LoTekGuru - 06 May 2008 01:06 GMT As a level 63, I would think your time would be better spent leveling to 70. At 63, your honor gains aren't going to be as great as they are at 70 simply because, as you stated, you're out-leveled AND out-geared by the other players so all your honor will be pretty much objective-based, and won't have the PVP kill honor to add to the total. I would get to 70, THEN get into PVP... by then, you SHOULD be at least honored with the major factions, so you can buy the blue rep-based PVP gear, which is a really good starting point as it gives some decent PVP stats right off the bat. I think it was someone on here that said they used the rep-based PVP gear as their starting healing gear for Kara as soon as they dinged 70, which gave them a really good +heal bonus with the full set... I think each piece costs about 20g, so that's a pretty cheap way to go for a starting healing set as well as PVP set that you can use to grind honor for the S1 (and possibly S2 stuff, depending on when you hit 70).
This is the Healadin PVP set, which gives you 168 +healing, 127 resilience (with set bouns), and a HoJ cooldown reduction of 10 seconds... PVP is all about beating the snot out of someone while they're helpless, as I'm sure you've found out by now!
http://www.wowhead.com/?itemset=751
Jarre@spamless.com - 06 May 2008 01:29 GMT I also have 63 ret pally..and my gear just sucks at the moment :)
Biggest reason for poor survival in bg is our lowlvl and lousy gear (there is nothing wrong in our "skillz" obviously ;)).
I haven't bothered to enter bg after lvl 60, but I was thinking to give a try when I ding 64. we are losing anyway so no harm done ;)
main thing is to try to stay in groups. "strength is in numbers" or something like that. you can use bubble & stunns to buy some time to heal yourself or your allies.
you can also use bubble to attack for example enemy healer.. it'll give 12secs to hit the healer without interruptions.
ave - 06 May 2008 10:34 GMT I would also agree, you should just level to 70 as fast as possible. At level 63 you are near the bottom of the food chain (60-69 and 61-70 in av). I wouldn't expect to join a battle group and do well until you're at least in the top four levels (so 66+) preferably the top two (68+).
> At a personal level, I suck at PvP, and between that, low gear, and > being low in the level group (61-69 or 61-70), Vam dies a lot - at least a > dozen times in a typical AV run. Just to note, to help reduce the feeling of impotence... *Everyone* sucks at pvp when they first play it, you begin to get better when you start to learn more about the classes in the game and what counters you have against them.
I must confess, my knowledge of paladin pvp is woefully inadequate. Depending on how serious you're expecting to take pvp games, I would suggest visiting www.warcraftmovies.com and downloading some of the higher rated paladin pvp movies. After watching some movies you may come across players who's names stick in your head (because they impressed you). Then armory them and compare gear/build and see if there's much you can take away that could be beneficial to yourself.
As a healer you should be travelling around with a group of people, and they should be trying to help you out when you get attacked. If that is just not happening, you could try respeccing a bit more dps centric build (such as retribution) for the last couple of levels. But I realise that you just might not be interested in that, only really worth it if you're dying because no-one helps or so.
> 3. Is the quest that involves 4 mark turnins for > extra honor worth it, or should I keep the marks > separate? I try to be smart about which BG to visit > when, but still try to hit all of them. It's worth it if your bags are overflowing with tokens. Before this quest was introduced I had 100 tokens from each battleground and my mail box was overflowing with more tokens. It can also be worth it if there's a particular item you want. But if you're not stacked with tokens, it's probably better to save them in case there's something you want to buy with them.
ave
steve.kaye - 06 May 2008 10:59 GMT > > 3. Is the quest that involves 4 mark turnins for > > extra honor worth it, or should I keep the marks [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > probably better to save them in case there's something you want to buy with > them. I dinged 70 with my Rogue this weekend and I've been going for the quick fix for gear upgrades. I had more than enough AB and WSG tokens for what I want to buy initially and so I've been doing the hand ins to get the honour that I needed. Now that I've spent all my WSG tokens on hand ins and gear I've gone back to grinding AV for the next pieces that I need. I'm sure that I'll regret it when I come to grind out the 50 EotS marks that I need for other pieces. :)
One thing that I'm wondering is how I should spend my points and marks. I've been going for the accessories before the S1 gear because I don't want to get and spend the honour only to have S2 gear become available shortly afterwards. I also have the blue PvP gear from the rep vendors to see me through. The one thing that is causing me doubts is the weapons - they are a big upgrade over what I have now and I wonder if I should just get them ASAP. Rogues are very dependant upon their weapons so I'm in a bit of a dilema. Any thoughts?
steve.kaye
Shammy - 06 May 2008 11:09 GMT sk> One thing that I'm wondering is how I should spend my points and sk> marks. I've been going for the accessories before the S1 gear sk> because sk> I don't want to get and spend the honour only to have S2 gear become sk> available shortly afterwards. I also have the blue PvP gear from sk> the rep vendors to see me through. The one thing that is causing me sk> doubts is the weapons - they are a big upgrade over what I have now sk> and I wonder if I should just get them ASAP. Rogues are very sk> dependant upon their weapons so I'm in a bit of a dilema. Any sk> thoughts?
I did same as you and I got ring, boots, bracers immediatly cause it's items that will have a rating requirement anyway... For the weapons, 1 night I got really tired of pvping with crap weapons like 2 weeks ago and I just went to buy S1 fist weapons and it made a HUGE difference that is keeping me in BG and I have no problem grinding for the rest of the gear. However I didnt enchant the S1 weapons and I was planning to get S2 before putting moongoose (sp?) on them and I'm still not sure if I get maces or fist weapons from S2 :p
steve.kaye - 06 May 2008 11:32 GMT > sk> One thing that I'm wondering is how I should spend my points and > sk> marks. I've been going for the accessories before the S1 gear [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > to get S2 before putting moongoose (sp?) on them and I'm still not sure if I > get maces or fist weapons from S2 :p That's another thing that I'm in a dilema about. Looks are important to me and the only weapons that I like the look of are the daggers. But I'm not a dagger rogue :/ I'm a hemo + shadowstep rogue so any of the weapons are good for me except the daggers. Are daggers a lot worse than the slower weapons for hemo? I can't see much of a difference between the maces, swords and fist weapons. Are any of them particularly better than the others for hemo?
steve.kaye
ave - 06 May 2008 11:45 GMT > Are daggers a lot worse than the slower weapons for hemo? Dagger's are awful for hemo, unfortunately. It is the damage range rather than their speed, and because daggers are a lot faster their damage range is a lot lower. So hemo will hit for a lot less with a dagger.
For example, to have the same dps. A slower weapon needs a bigger damage range to compensate for their slower hit rate. Conversely, faster weapons needs a smaller damage range because they hit a lot more often. Hemo (and typically other specials) are instant hit, so neither their dps nor speed factors into how hard the hemo attack hits for. Only their damage range, which is why slower weapons are better, because they typically have a higher damage due to their slower speed.
> I can't see much of a difference between the maces, swords and fist > weapons. > Are any of them particularly better than the others for hemo? None are especially good over the others for hemo, if you want to future proof you character (in-case harp or combat builds make a comeback, dont see it happening but I can't see the future) get maces. I personally go for swords just for aesthetic reasons :)
steve.kaye
steve.kaye - 06 May 2008 12:00 GMT > > I can't see much of a difference between the maces, swords and fist > > weapons. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > it happening but I can't see the future) get maces. I personally go for > swords just for aesthetic reasons :) The maces are the worst looking of them - they look like something I could draw - just a cube with spikes on a stick. I think that it's 50/50 between the awful looking swords or the awful looking fist weapons. The biggest visual issue is the size - my dainty female blood elf couldn't lift those weapons if her life depended on it. :) I think the fist weapons probably look the least awful so I'll go for them.
steve.kaye
ave - 06 May 2008 11:38 GMT > 2 weeks ago and I just went to buy S1 fist weapons and it made a HUGE > difference that is keeping me in BG and I have no problem grinding for the > rest of the gear. It is probably worth stressing this, if you have worse weapons than the pvp one's, and you're a melee class (eg. rogue or warrior). The pvp weapon is the single biggest upgrade available for you. I had decent blue weapons once. And I eventually decided to buy a mainhand sword. I saw an immediate and noticable change to my performance in bg and I was fairly shocked at how much improved my character was.
Not saying get those first or anything, but they typically are a huge improvement on your character.
> However I didnt enchant the S1 weapons and I was planning to get S2 before > putting moongoose (sp?) on them and I'm still not sure if I get maces or > fist weapons from S2 :p I have mongoose on both main hand and offhand weapon, double mongoose also makes a huge difference. At this time, though, I would try saving honor and tokens until you reach honor\token cap, then buy something. Then reach cap again, etc. So that when season 4 arrives you can buy pretty much whatever you want straight away.
ave
neithskye - 06 May 2008 19:09 GMT > My guildies checked Vam out, and told me he's woefully underdressed. > Their advice was to do BGs to pick up honor until he gets to 70, then get > the best BG pvp gear he can. The goal was to gear him up so he can do Kara when > he dings 70. My main is a Paladin, although a Holy one. I don't know very much about Retribution, except that it is very gear-dependent, but are you sure PvP gear will help Vam in Kara? A lot of PvP gear does not fare well in PvE - for example, the Holy set has zero Mp5. During very long battles, this is very bad.
Again, I don't know Ret, but if you aren't enjoying PvP there's no sense grinding to get a bunch of gear that might not even help you when you could just perhaps run some instances at lvl 70 and obtain much better gear.
> Well, I tried it this weekend, and found it unbelievably annoying and > tedious. At a personal level, I suck at PvP, and between that, low gear, and > being low in the level group (61-69 or 61-70), Vam dies a lot - at least a > dozen times in a typical AV run.
> If I get into contact with Horde, I get Stunned, Sapped, Feared, and > DoTed so quickly and often that it's no fun at all. You'd think I'd do > well as a healer, but a big blue draenai with a huge flaming sword > attracts a lot of attention, and I get interrupted all the time. I just dinged 60,000 HKs, so I've done my share of BGs. People will disagree with me, but Paladins have it very bad in PvP right now.
I'm not familiar with Ret. It can dish out insane amounts of burst damage, but lacks things like interrupts and a Mortal Strike effect. Most healers will laugh at Ret Paladins.
As for Holy, in a nutshell: one school of magic + casted heals + no CC = bad.
With one school of magic, no other class gets locked out like a Paladin does due to things like Counterspell, Kick, etc. Your entire UI goes gray - you can't even bubble. With no heal-over-time heals and no instant casts save for Holy Shock (which you won't have, since you're Ret), which is like Mana Burning yourself, our two heals are casted. With every class in the game, except for, ironically, Paladins, having multiple ways to interrupt, good luck trying to get a heal off.
Paladins lack offensive skills. If another healing class sees I'm healing: a Priest can Mana Burn, Fear and Mass Dispel me, a Druid can Bash, Feral Charge or Cyclone me, which I can't even bubble out of, and a Shaman can spam shocks at me, interrupting my heals, as well as Purging my blessings, Light's Grace, etc. Seeing another healer, a Paladin can . . . Hammer of Justice once every 60 seconds; it usually has a 50% resist rate.
I could go on and on, but to conclude. If you're only PvPing to get Ret gear please do some reasearch to see if it will help you. It could very well, I don't know, my PvP gear did just fine for the first few runs of Kara until I collected the +healing Plate stuff from there. My point is, there's no sense doing something you're clearly not enjoying if it won't be worth it in the long run.
Yes, being lvl 63 among 70s isn't helping. Get a PvP trinket, and the better one if possible - it allows you to remove effects that cause you to lose control of your character every two minutes.
Perhaps re-spec Holy for a while. Prot and Ret do just fine healing, but you can pick up Holy Shock. It's a total mana drain and has a ridiculous 15-second cooldown, but is the only heal we can cast instantly and while moving. I have a macro to cast Divine Favor then Holy Shock - that instant 3,100 heal has saved my behind plenty of times in PvP.
Always stay with a group - Holy Paladins anyway are kind of weak 1- on-1. You're Alliance, and this is AV which, with lots more people than AB or EotS, makes it more difficult to notice what each individual is doing. However, my Paladin is a Blood Elf, and at least Horde-side, when people notice that he is healing, they will protect him.
With better gear it will become less frustrating, although if you have eight enemies on you, not much is going to help. My Holy Paladin in his PvP gear has close to 400 resilience, +1,500 healing, 10K mana, 11K life, and 15K armor. He can go an entire night of BGs and not die once. Of course he can't kill much in his own, but he can last long enough for help to arrive.
Oh, dear. I told myself I wouldn't babble. So much for that. :P
> Questions: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > going to take a long, long time to get enough honor to get > the good lvl 70 stuff. The best thing to perhaps do here is to go to some sites like Thottbot, Wowhead, etc., and research what drops from instances, what is obtainable from reputation, etc., and decide for yourself.
> 2. How can I improve my PvP? (Yes, I know: 'practice, practice'). > Is there a decent tutorial somewhere? Turn with your mouse if you don't already. I have never played a FPS before, never strafed with the mouse, and found it really hard learning to turn with the mouse in WoW. I still have trouble with it.
Bind all the skills you use to hotkeys so you don't have to click. Bind, I dunno, Blessing of Freedom to "Z", Hammer of Justice to Shift-"Z", etc., so that you can always be turning with the mouse and hotclicking spells.
You might find the WoW PvP Forums on the WoW Forums helpful. Sometimes amongst all the angry posts are threads that I've learned from - how to kill X as Y posts.
Try dueling. Ask the person after what you could have done differently. Sometimes I discuss my fights with people and say, "I can't believe you didn't use "Whatever Skill!", and they say, "Ohhh! That's what I was supposed to do there".
Finally, as a Holy Paladin anyway (I know you're Ret, but you're still healing), get used to the idea that some classes will just WTFPWN you - a Priest with Mana Burn and Mass Dispel, for example. The game is not balanced 1-vs-1. Unfortunately, there are zero classes that Paladins WTFPWN back.
(I'm really not trying to be a downer or discourage you - just don't think it's entirely all you. Over in the Paladin Forums I saw a link to some recent Arena representation charts on the Tournament server. In 2v2, Paladins are at 8.7% vs. Druids at 139.9%; in 3v3, Paladins are at 17.4% vs. Druids at 156.6%; and in 5v5, Paladins are at 72.7% vs. Druids at 218.2%. So the combined representation of Paladins in all three brackets is less than Druids in any one given bracket. The Paladin class has glaring problems that even being the most uber player won't help.)
> 3. Is the quest that involves 4 mark turnins for > extra honor worth it, or should I keep the marks > separate? I try to be smart about which BG to visit > when, but still try to hit all of them. If you have specific gear in mind, research how much honour and how many tokens you'll need. If you dislike PvP, with some gear requiring 40 tokens of a certain BG, like 40 AV tokens for the trinkets, you may find you get those 40 tokens then never go back to that BG. If you end up continuing with PvP, see what you have more of later - honour or tokens - and make your decision then.
-- Jill
BLMX - 06 May 2008 22:42 GMT -If you really, really desire to be accepted by your guild then I suppose trying to do what they say would be one choice. Another is to just play the game the way it is fun for you.
-If you decide to keep PVP'in, learn the BG maps, it's more fun when you know what you're supposed to be doing and where to be at any given point in time. Try to go with a RL friend and voicechat/vent/phone - def more fun. If no RLF's online, just ask for the "baddest tough guy" in the BG to identify him/herself. This alone is funny. "Who's the best PVP'er here?" heh. Pick one of the replys (with high HP) and tell that person you'll be their heabot. At least you'll have that one person watchin' out for you. Don't take it to heart if they blame you for their death. You need the practice. Taking the blame, that is. ;) Alternatively, just follow the "main" group and heal until you get attacked, then bubble and run into a cluster of your team, heal some more until someone peels your attacker off or you die.
-Ignore the BG whiners, if there's no useful info in their chat, just ignore them. Every BG, horde/ally alike have 1 or more knuckleheads whom, after having their face torn off, proclaim "you guys all suck!".
-The BG gear can be quite good, particularly for healing & mana regen, get those items first. Budget out your Marks so you know exactly how many of each you need for the items that are the biggest upgrades for you. Keep in mind that not every piece of gear that's Purple is better than a lesser color. Wear the gear that fits the situation.
-Mods: Clique & Grid are nice for healers if you don't have a fav already.
-Make sure you are confident with healing 5-man dungeons before doing Kara. If you got decent gear but aren't a competent healer, welp, that won't make anyone happy, particularly you.
-And as someone else mentioned, dueling (esp. with RL friends) is a good way to practice PVP. Someone you can talk to about it afterwards.
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