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Game Forum / Action Games / Half Life / June 2005retailers worldwide should rejoice!
retailers worldwide should rejoice! again an article in the media that misses the point about steam http://www.gamesindustry.biz/news.php?aid=8492 but i'm sure the majority of retailers were very happy and relieved by the decision of vivendi to stop distributing valve pc games in retail it has a victory for all except "bad guy" valve obviously the "bad guy" valve will strike back like they always do and again try and infect the healthy retail market cause its the only way they can survive but we'll be here prepared to fight again the key is the retail market, who controls the retail market controls pc games, so valve will do everything at its reach to infect infest his steam virus into it so they will have total monopoly and control over everything in pc games we only won a battle but the war is not over yet -- post made in a steam-free computer i said "NO" to valve and steam > x-no-archive: yes > > retailers worldwide should rejoice! I have had no issues with steam Please go play in traffic ... there came a great "Joiner" <joiner@hotmail.com> flying, and he bore tidings beyond hope, crying: >I have had no issues with steam I see. You didn't buy Half-Life 2.  Signature"This is an extremely primitive and paranoid culture." (James T. Kirk on 20th century America, Star Trek IV) > ... there came a great "Joiner" <joiner@hotmail.com> flying, and he > bore tidings beyond hope, crying: > >>I have had no issues with steam > > I see. You didn't buy Half-Life 2. sure I did I downloaded it and played it with no problems Cross posted x-no-archive troll. > Path: newssvr17.news.prodigy.com!newscon07.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!newscon02.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.net!news.glorb.com!postnews.google.com!g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail > From: "steamKILLER" <sayNO2steam@yahoo.com> [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > post made in a steam-free computer > i said "NO" to valve and steam > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > post made in a steam-free computer > i said "NO" to valve and steam I don't get it. How is a potential loss of 8 million pounds in the retail market GOOD NEWS for the retail chains. jeez, I just figured out who this guy is, ITS KEN LAY from Enron, with statements like that, it must be Ken Lay, only Ken LAY would say that losing 8 million pounds is a victory. > I don't get it. How is a potential loss of 8 million pounds in the retail > market GOOD NEWS for the retail chains. > > jeez, I just figured out who this guy is, ITS KEN LAY from Enron, with > statements like that, it must be Ken Lay, only Ken LAY would say that > losing 8 million pounds is a victory. he is an idiot apparently he doesnt know how to use high speed internet > > I don't get it. How is a potential loss of 8 million pounds in the retail > > market GOOD NEWS for the retail chains. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > apparently he doesnt know how to use high speed internet Some of my Navy friends bought the game for Xmas, took it with them on the sub, went to sea, ... only to realize it required the internet to validate it. Also, my brother in Oregon can't play it cause he lives in the country and doesn't even have a dialup modem. >Some of my Navy friends bought the game for Xmas, took it with them on the >sub, went to sea, ... only to realize it required the internet to validate >it. The system requirements on the box makes it clear. SignatureAndrew, contact via interpleb.blogspot.com Help make Usenet a better place: English is read downwards, please don't top post. Trim replies to quote only relevant text. Check groups.google.com before asking an obvious question. >> > I don't get it. How is a potential loss of 8 million pounds in the >retail [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >it. Also, my brother in Oregon can't play it cause he lives in the country >and doesn't even have a dialup modem. Don't they have phone lines in Oregon yet? SignatureJohn Secker > >Some of my Navy friends bought the game for Xmas, took it with them on the > >sub, went to sea, ... only to realize it required the internet to validate > >it. Also, my brother in Oregon can't play it cause he lives in the country > >and doesn't even have a dialup modem. > > > Don't they have phone lines in Oregon yet? I think you'll find, if you re-read the post very carefully, that the Oregon problem is lack of a modem, NOT lack of a phone line. >>>Some of my Navy friends bought the game for Xmas, took it with them > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > I think you'll find, if you re-read the post very carefully, that the > Oregon problem is lack of a modem, NOT lack of a phone line. Really? I can't imagine being a gamer and not having at least a modem. On 5/13/2005 1:30 PM James Garvin brightened our day with: >>>> Some of my Navy friends bought the game for Xmas, took it with them >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Really? I can't imagine being a gamer and not having at least a modem. I can't imagine being a gamer and not having 1.5 megabit broadband. SignatureThe Official God FAQ: http://www.400monkeys.com/God/ Steve ¤»Inglo«¤ www.inglostadt.com > On 5/13/2005 1:30 PM James Garvin brightened our day with: > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > I can't imagine being a gamer and not having 1.5 megabit broadband. A T1 is a little too expensive for me, but I will keep my cable modem ;-) >> Really? I can't imagine being a gamer and not having at least a modem. > > I can't imagine being a gamer and not having 1.5 megabit broadband. Too true...4MB Broadband here, and I don't know how I lived without it. :) But no modem at all? I guess you could live without the internet if you're a gamer, but these days it would be pretty tough. I've steered clear of a lot of duds reading opinions off the net boards and such, not to mention getting patches, etc. Derek Stormcloud Creations www.stormcloudcreations.com <snipped> >>Don't they have phone lines in Oregon yet? > > I think you'll find, if you re-read the post very carefully, that the > > Oregon problem is lack of a modem, NOT lack of a phone line. > > Really? I can't imagine being a gamer and not having at least a modem. I'm not sure of the percentage, but how many other gamers are out there that don't have any kind of internet connection? 2%? 20%? > <snipped> >>Don't they have phone lines in Oregon yet? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I'm not sure of the percentage, but how many other gamers are out there that > don't have any kind of internet connection? 2%? 20%? I'd say less than 2%. James Garvin <jgarvin2004@comcast.net> typed as if devouring a plate of spoo: >> I think you'll find, if you re-read the post very carefully, that the >> Oregon problem is lack of a modem, NOT lack of a phone line. > > Really? I can't imagine being a gamer and not having at least a > modem. There's still plenty of single-player-only games out there, and even a few places where people can't get Net access. Certainly to run HL2 on Steam you need some flavour of broadband, and while that's available over something like 98% of the UK, other countries aren't so well favoured. Signature-- There is no spoon. EvilBill - http://evilbill.50megs.com/index.html My Quake2 FTP site: ftp://65.30.181.223/quake2/EvilBill/ Jack of Hearts of the Eeeevil Trek Cabal (TINC) >Certainly to run HL2 on Steam you need some flavour of broadband, and while >that's available over something like 98% of the UK, other countries aren't >so well favoured. You need a net connection to install it, broadband is preferable but certainly not required. SignatureAndrew, contact via interpleb.blogspot.com Help make Usenet a better place: English is read downwards, please don't top post. Trim replies to quote only relevant text. Check groups.google.com before asking an obvious question. Andrew <spamtrap@localhost.> typed as if devouring a plate of spoo: >> Certainly to run HL2 on Steam you need some flavour of broadband, >> and while that's available over something like 98% of the UK, other >> countries aren't so well favoured. > > You need a net connection to install it, broadband is preferable but > certainly not required. You need it to download the massive patches and so forth if you want to play online, otherwise you'll be sat there for three days before you can play. <g> Signature-- There is no spoon. EvilBill - http://evilbill.50megs.com/index.html My Quake2 FTP site: ftp://65.30.181.223/quake2/EvilBill/ Jack of Hearts of the Eeeevil Trek Cabal (TINC) >>Certainly to run HL2 on Steam you need some flavour of broadband, and >>while [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > You need a net connection to install it, broadband is preferable but > certainly not required. with 100meg updates - broadband is definately required. This is not stated on the box and should be. It was a deliberate attemot to mislead consumers Regards >with 100meg updates - broadband is definately required. You can download 100meg overnight on a modem. >This is not stated on the box and should be. Bollocks. SignatureAndrew, contact via interpleb.blogspot.com Help make Usenet a better place: English is read downwards, please don't top post. Trim replies to quote only relevant text. Check groups.google.com before asking an obvious question. Andrew <spamtrap@localhost.> typed as if devouring a plate of spoo: >> with 100meg updates - broadband is definately required. > > You can download 100meg overnight on a modem. Not if you're on pay-per-minute or one of those unmetered services that cut you off after two hours. (As an aside, on my former dial-up, a 44k connection at best, it used to take me several days to download that much...) Signature-- There is no spoon. EvilBill - http://evilbill.50megs.com/index.html My Quake2 FTP site: ftp://65.30.181.223/quake2/EvilBill/ Jack of Hearts of the Eeeevil Trek Cabal (TINC) >Not if you're on pay-per-minute How does that stop you? >or one of those unmetered services that cut >you off after two hours. Maybe, I am not sure if having an auto-reconnecting DUN connection would work with Steam. >(As an aside, on my former dial-up, a 44k connection at best, it used to >take me several days to download that much...) I quite easily downloaded that much overnight when I was in dial-up hell using a download manager. SignatureAndrew, contact via interpleb.blogspot.com Help make Usenet a better place: English is read downwards, please don't top post. Trim replies to quote only relevant text. Check groups.google.com before asking an obvious question. Andrew <spamtrap@localhost.> typed as if devouring a plate of spoo: >> Not if you're on pay-per-minute > > How does that stop you? It doesn't *stop* you as such, but I remember my pay-per-minute days (before unmetered services were common) and the phone bills were *immense*. Signature-- There is no spoon. EvilBill - http://evilbill.50megs.com/index.html My Quake2 FTP site: ftp://65.30.181.223/quake2/EvilBill/ Jack of Hearts of the Eeeevil Trek Cabal (TINC) >>Not if you're on pay-per-minute > > How does that stop you? eg 10 hours at 2.4p per min = 14.4 pounds = very expensive game Regards >eg 10 hours at 2.4p per min = 14.4 pounds = very expensive game So in other words it doesn't stop you. Plus if you are limited like that, make the call at the weekend when it is 1p per minute or less, but I guess your argument wouldn't stand up so well then. SignatureAndrew, contact via interpleb.blogspot.com Help make Usenet a better place: English is read downwards, please don't top post. Trim replies to quote only relevant text. Check groups.google.com before asking an obvious question. >>>Not if you're on pay-per-minute >> >>How does that stop you? > > eg 10 hours at 2.4p per min = 14.4 pounds = very expensive game 14.4 pounds ~ $25??? >>>>Not if you're on pay-per-minute >>> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > 14.4 pounds ~ $25??? yep >>>>>Not if you're on pay-per-minute >>>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > yep Ouch...that is pretty damn steep! >>with 100meg updates - broadband is definately required. > > You can download 100meg overnight on a modem. not with a 2 hour cut off. >>This is not stated on the box and should be. > > Bollocks. why would they state 'bollocks' on the box ? Andrew <spamtrap@localhost.> looked up from reading the entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say: >>with 100meg updates - broadband is definately required. > >You can download 100meg overnight on a modem. Assuming your modem IS a 56k and can actually get even remotely close to that number. I'm "lucky" in that I actually get a connect of 49,333, but people I know out in rural areas are lucky to get _near_ 24k, because the physical phone lines CAN'T support higher speeds. It wasn't that long ago that the phone companies wouldn't even guarantee over 9600 connects, because they knew that some of the lines and junction boxes dated back to the '40s and '50s. >>This is not stated on the box and should be. > >Bollocks. I agree with him. There should be a notice telling you that the company won't patch individual items but will bundle up large collections of bug fixes AND gameplay changes in huge monolithic patches and that those patches aren't archivable,since you're not allowed to download and then run the patch later at your convenience. You're not downloading a patch, you're running an auto-patcher, and there IS a difference. It's the same kind of difference you see in web "movies" - some let you download them and view them anytime later - others ONLY let you stream them specifically to stop you having it on disk locally. Xocyll SignatureI don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably, Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr > I agree with him. > There should be a notice telling you that the company won't patch [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > You're not downloading a patch, you're running an auto-patcher, and > there IS a difference. I'm curious but why should they be required to state something like that on the box? I don't see players complaining about how huge the patches in MMORPGs are and those companies don't state anything about the hugeness of the patches on their game boxes, and those games are patched via an auto-patcher. >> I agree with him. >> There should be a notice telling you that the company won't patch [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > the hugeness of the patches on their game boxes, and those games are > patched via an auto-patcher. I am buying a single player game not a MMORPG. MMORPGs obviously need a fast internet connection. Half-life is a complete departure from the norm and this should have been stated on the box to avoid ripping people off. But whats new ???? > MMORPGs obviously need a fast internet connection. Not for game-play. Just patching. dangtranvu@netscape.net looked up from reading the entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say: >> I agree with him. >> There should be a notice telling you that the company won't patch [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >the hugeness of the patches on their game boxes, and those games are >patched via an auto-patcher. MMORPGs are by their very nature ONLINE and likely to be patched and receive updates to content at the same time. It's a known risk you might say. It's not known for single player games however, since those usually don't ever get extra content, just bug fix patches. Even then, most single player games you can download the patch without running it immediately. You can archive it so that NEXT TIME you install the game, you can patch it as well without downloading the patch again. You can't do that with Steam and HL2, the closest you can come is to archive the entire installed game files and that's considerably more data. Even with City of Heroes, an MMORPG with an autopatcher, I can archive the patch itself, because it's left in the directory as one single file, Coh.majorpatch. So I can save that file, uninstall the game, reinstall the game, put that file in place, and BOOM, instantly up-to-date without downloading it again. The fact that a single player game DOESN'T let you do this while an MMORPG does should tell you a little something about how far from normal Valve have strayed and why there should be a warning that this is the case. Xocyll SignatureI don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably, Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr >>>Certainly to run HL2 on Steam you need some flavour of broadband, and >>>while [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Regards The game and all updates were on last months PCGamer DVD - over 4GB. Broadband is desirable but not required. > The game and all updates were on last months PCGamer DVD - over 4GB. > Broadband is desirable but not required. Steady Shawk, you'll have the anti-Steam lobby moaning about not having a DVD drive next. SignatureDavid davidfirewater(a)hotmail.com > Steady Shawk, you'll have the anti-Steam lobby moaning about not having a > DVD drive next. Nahh, our friend SK has just posted an add for the new PK BE DVD version Wonder if it stated clearly on the package what copyprotection is in use and that the media has to be in the drive for the game to work properly First version of PK had an error in the copy protection scheme preventing a bunc of players to install and play the game A patch was made available, but not on media from the retail store but from the internet (btw I don't think that this fact is stated on any box for any pc game?) Nahh I'd prefer Steam no media needed just play the game anytime and anywhere I have just been a week in Finland (business trip) Not nice to be forced to have your gaming media with you on travel in order to play the game - with Steam it worked flawlessly :-) Oh btw when the media has a copy protection isn't that a violation of the CD/DVD standardization and you're not allowed to call it a CD (or DVD) anymore? rgds > James Garvin <jgarvin2004@comcast.net> typed as if devouring a plate of > spoo: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > that's available over something like 98% of the UK, other countries aren't > so well favoured. I don't think you *have* to have broadband to run HL2 on Steam. I certainly didn't for the 7 years I had HL and then HL2. Playing on our own servers with 200 ping was easy though playing CS across the pond with a 500 ping did strip a few notches off my score. :-) But as I *used* to say,"If you ain't got the skillz to get the killz, get broadband." :-) SignatureJethro[AGHL] aka Phat_Pinger Reply Email: jethro86 (at) gmail (dot) com Jethro <me@work.now> typed as if devouring a plate of spoo: >> There's still plenty of single-player-only games out there, and even >> a few places where people can't get Net access. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > But as I *used* to say,"If you ain't got the skillz to get the killz, > get broadband." :-) True. But it makes it far, *far* more painless for downloading the patches. If I didn't have broadband, it would have been several days before I was able to play HL2 after buying it, rather than a few hours ;) Signature-- There is no spoon. EvilBill - http://evilbill.50megs.com/index.html My Quake2 FTP site: ftp://65.30.181.223/quake2/EvilBill/ Jack of Hearts of the Eeeevil Trek Cabal (TINC) > Jethro <me@work.now> typed as if devouring a plate of spoo: >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > patches. If I didn't have broadband, it would have been several days > before I was able to play HL2 after buying it, rather than a few hours ;) I'm fairly pro-Steam - I think it does have more good points than bad (see JBM's post in AGHL yesterday - couldnt do that with other games). However... it could have had a better warning on the box and it should untie the patches from the first verification so that you can verify and play without d-loading a load of patches first - perhaps a dialogue box with "Do you wish to install patches at this time? This will take approximately XXhrs on a 56k modem" . Like Microsoft and SP2 etc they could also make the patches available to order on CD. Dont know how easy these would be for Valve to do but it'd certainly help a few folk. (Number of cross-posts reduced to csipga and aghl where this seems to be more relevant) > Jethro <me@work.now> typed as if devouring a plate of spoo: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > If I didn't have broadband, it would have been several days before I was > able to play HL2 after buying it, rather than a few hours ;) Not true. With my craptastic 26.4K dial up, I got my HL2 retail box about 2 days after release, and had HL2 up and running in an hour or so. Not sure exactly as I started it up and went to eat supper. It was good to go when I was done. Several days??? Not at all. I also kept it all updated through dialup up until my highspeed upgrade in end of Feb\05. Painful? Sure. Doable? Yes. SignatureJethro[AGHL] aka Phat_Pinger Reply Email: jethro86 (at) gmail (dot) com >> Jethro <me@work.now> typed as if devouring a plate of spoo: >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >Not true. With my craptastic 26.4K dial up, I got my HL2 retail box >about 2 days after release, and had HL2 up and running in an hour or so. Some players didn't get the box and opted for onw of the higher-ranking Silver/Gold packages (which incldued HL:S and DOD:S for some reason.) In these two cases, you need to download the HL2 package as a hard copy wasn't purchased in store. This option is not recommended, but you could try to play it while it is downloading (assuming it's nearing the end) - as long as you don't run a map that HL2 still needs to download. You could even disconnect if absolutly necessairy, thus freeing the phone line for other usages. >> >Some of my Navy friends bought the game for Xmas, took it with >> >them [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > the > Oregon problem is lack of a modem, NOT lack of a phone line. And there are no stores in Oregon, or you can't buy one for him? >> >Some of my Navy friends bought the game for Xmas, took it with them >on the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >I think you'll find, if you re-read the post very carefully, that the >Oregon problem is lack of a modem, NOT lack of a phone line. So why mention that he lives in Oregon, and specifically that he lives "in the country"? And how many machines, with a spec good enough to play the game in question, come without a modem? SignatureJohn Secker :>In message <1116013596.455092.67410@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, :>Chadwick <chadwick110@hotmail.com> writes [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] :>>I think you'll find, if you re-read the post very carefully, that the :>>Oregon problem is lack of a modem, NOT lack of a phone line. I wonder how many dialup ISPs are available out in the country in Oregon that aren't a long distance call away? I've got some friends that live up in the mountains in northern Arizona. Yes, they have a phone line. Of course it's a 8 party line and the nearest ISP is over 100 miles away. Even if they were willing to foot the long distance cost I think their neighbors would string them up if they started surfing the net and gaming on their "shared" line. :-) :>So why mention that he lives in Oregon, and specifically that he lives :>"in the country"? :>And how many machines, with a spec good enough to play the game in :>question, come without a modem? Well, let's see now. I can name a few. :-) Computer #1 P4-3.06GHZ/1GB Dual Channel RAM/ATI Radeon 9700Pro/Audigy Sound Card/120GB Hard Drive/17" Viewsonic 15ms LCD monitor on DVI and NO modem. Computer #2 P4-3.20GHZ/1GB Dual Channel RAM/ATI Radeon 9800Pro/Audigy2 ZS Sound Card/2-80GB SATA hard drives in Raid 0/19" Acer 12ms LCD Monitor on DVI and NO modem. Computer #3 Toshiba 5205 notebook with Mobile P4 2.2GHZ/1GB RAM/nVidia Geforce4 460 Go with 64MB/Yamaha sound/2-60GB hard drives/15" UXGA "Truebrite" display and YES it has a modem built-in that's never been used other than to test it in the 2+ years I've owned the computer. In summary: Computer #1 with NO modem plays HL2 and most other games fairly well even though it is primarily used for business purposes. Computer #2 with NO modem plays HL2 great (and every other game I've thrown at it). Computer #3 WITH a modem might play it at very low settings but I never bothered. To be fair the last computer other than notebooks that I actually bought pre-built was an Amiga 2000. Since that time I have built all my computers myself from selected parts. I do have stored away an external US Robotics Courier V-Everything modem that I used way back in the dark ages <grin>. That one being external I've never owned a "full size" computer with an internal modem. BTW, when I bought that modem they were selling for over $500.00. I got mine for half price because I worked at a retailer that sold them and we got a special employeee purchase. The rest of the story is that the US Robotics modem got retired when I got a 5+ mb broadband hookup over 5 years ago. I just wanted to make the point that a high end gaming rig not purchased pre-built from a name brand vendor has a good chance of not having a modem. me/2 > And how many machines, with a spec good enough to play the game in > question, come without a modem? Plenty 1) Modem is not onboard standard (except for laptops) Ethernet is an onboard standard 2) Eg Alienwares gaming rigs does not come with a modem installed 3) Why pay for modem as std eqiupment when you are on broadband? rgds >> And how many machines, with a spec good enough to play the game in >> question, come without a modem? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >3) >Why pay for modem as std eqiupment when you are on broadband? Because you live in Oregon, "out in the country"? The guy was trying to give us some sob story about his brother. We have now established that his brother has a phone. A modem is a standard part of the spec of any games machine that I have seen (indeed virtually any machine) although it is not "on board" - and if you happen to have specified a non-standard spec a modem costs a trivial amount these days. And of course if the modem is part of the standard spec then it will cost you more, not less, to do without it. SignatureJohn Secker John Secker <john@secker.demon.co.uk> looked up from reading the entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say: >>> And how many machines, with a spec good enough to play the game in >>> question, come without a modem? [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >course if the modem is part of the standard spec then it will cost you >more, not less, to do without it. Since when do you need a modem to play single player games? I really don't care if the latest dell "gaming computer" has a modem in it, because it's irrelevant. Most of the "modems" bundled in packages aren't really modems at all - they're winmodems or controllerless modems - really little more than an analog to digital converter and a software package that emulates a real modem at considerable overhead. People do build their own, and it's perfectly reasonable to have a system that's capable of playing any current game that has no internet connection of any kind. Because the person has no need for an internet connection on his game machine. You know, because the way that everyone else does it, you'd just download a patch when it became available and you can do that from _ANY_ machine. For years people have downloaded stuff at work or school, because they had high-speed access there and don't at home. For single player games pre-hl2, you don't NEED an internet connection at all. That's the point that's being made - Valve has gone far beyond what is "normal" for single player games. Xocyll SignatureI don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably, Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr [Good argument, snipped for the sake of not just mindlessly repeating it. no offence] > For single player games pre-hl2, you don't NEED an internet connection > at all. > That's the point that's being made - Valve has gone far beyond what is > "normal" for single player games. And if only Valve (or Vivendi) had managed to make that clear on the box, or on the bottom of any advertising, or even in interviews (the emphasis is on the word "clear"), then most of this bitching would never have happened. If people knew what to expect then they wouldn't be so surprised. > [Good argument, snipped for the sake of not just mindlessly repeating > it. no offence] [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > never have happened. If people knew what to expect then they wouldn't > be so surprised. Agreed. I assume they didnt make it clear due to restricted sales. Regards > [Good argument, snipped for the sake of not just mindlessly repeating > it. no offence] [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > never have happened. If people knew what to expect then they wouldn't > be so surprised. I thought it was pretty clear when in the MINIMUM SPECS it said INTERNET CONNECTION REQUIRED. > > [Good argument, snipped for the sake of not just mindlessly repeating > > it. no offence] [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > I thought it was pretty clear when in the MINIMUM SPECS it said INTERNET > CONNECTION REQUIRED. As you obviously haven't done enough reading around on this yet, the argument is that up until HL2, you did not need an internet connection to install or play a single player game. Steam/HL2 introduced something new, something that had the potential to make the game unusable to some people. Technically I agree with you - caveat emptor - but it seems a fair few people were caught out by this change. Many who did notice the "Internet Connection" in the specs assumed it meant for the multiplayer game, because that is the way it always had been. There was nothing else to say that this product was different from any other box on the shelves. I'm not suggesting that Valve/Vivendi were deliberately misleading, just that if they had stated "An internet connection is required to install and play this game" (in type the same size as you see on an expansion pack where it states "You must own the original version of this game to use this expansion pack"), then it would have been a lot clearer what had changed and fewer people would have been confused, or made an erronous assumption. The German authorities (I forget which) also found that the packaging should have stated more explicitly the nature of the internet requirement. I'm trying to think of an analogy. This might not be very good one but what the hell. You buy a phone - a landline - with lots of whizzbang features. Top of the range model. On the box in the small print it says "Always use the full dialing code". You go home, plug it in, pick up the receiver and get a dialing tone. Great. You phone your friend a few streets away. Nothing. It won't ring. You phone a few other people - same problem, it doesn't connect. When you take it back to the shop, the guy says he can't take it back because you've opened it and plugged it in. He points out that you have to dial the full dialing code, by which is meant the full international dialing code - even for a local call. All the information was there on the box - it just never occurred to you that was what it meant, but in hindsight, what else could it mean? "Always dial the full dialing code". Had the box stated more clearly "To uise this phone you must always dial the full international dialing code - even for local calls", you might have thought more deeply about your purchase and wheher those extra features were really worth the effort of dialling a 14/15 digit number every time. > As you obviously haven't done enough reading around on this yet, the > argument is that up until HL2, you did not need an internet connection > to install or play a single player game. Uh, if you look I was quite involved with difool a while back. I have seen quite a few arguments on this and it boils down to: THE MINIMUM SPECS SAY INTERNET CONNECTION REQUIRED > Steam/HL2 introduced something new, something that had the potential to > make the game unusable to some people. Technically I agree with you - [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > always had been. There was nothing else to say that this product was > different from any other box on the shelves. You were either in a hole or you managed NOT to hear anything about HL2 for a few years. The activation scheme was talked about for a LONG time before the game came out. Plus, THE MINIMUM SPECS SAY INTERNET CONNECTION REQUIRED. > I'm not suggesting that Valve/Vivendi were deliberately misleading, > just that if they had stated "An internet connection is required to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > clearer what had changed and fewer people would have been confused, or > made an erronous assumption. THE MINIMUM SPECS SAY INTERNET CONNECTION REQUIRED >> As you obviously haven't done enough reading around on this yet, the >> argument is that up until HL2, you did not need an internet connection [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > THE MINIMUM SPECS SAY INTERNET CONNECTION REQUIRED Not much use if you only have a payg 56k modem. They failed to mention this point. Regards James Garvin missed the point: > > As you obviously haven't done enough reading around on this yet, the > > argument is that up until HL2, you did not need an internet connection [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > THE MINIMUM SPECS SAY INTERNET CONNECTION REQUIRED OK, the "not enough reading comment" was perhaps below the belt, but you didn't really get the point did you? I know what's on the box. But it didn't make it absolutely clear about the fundamental way in which HL2 differed from previous single-player games. It's quite a change - suddenly you need a reasonable connection just to install the game. If the packaging had added a few more words to clarify this, people wouldn't be moaning quote so much. If you make a fundamental change to something that has become accepted as normal, then you need to alert people to that change properly, or they will resist it. If you still don't get it then I'll leave it to someone else to try and find another way of explaining it because I'm not going to bang my head against your blinkered stubborness. > James Garvin missed the point: >> [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > install the game. If the packaging had added a few more words to > clarify this, people wouldn't be moaning quote so much. And a lot of people wouldnt have bought it. They deliberately mislead people to bolster sales. This is why I call it a ripoff. Regards >> I thought it was pretty clear when in the MINIMUM SPECS it said >INTERNET [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >always had been. There was nothing else to say that this product was >different from any other box on the shelves. In this case, you should blame other retailers for plopping "Internet Connection Required" as an unnecessairy minimum requirement for the game package. (Of course, the HL2 package should have stated "Internet Registration Reuqired", but that's a different story.) Unreal Tournament, a famous multiplayer game, got this right by having large text saying that a 3D accelerator and Internet connection are recommended but not required. >I'm trying to think of an analogy. This might not be very good one but >what the hell. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Nothing. It won't ring. You phone a few other people - same problem, it >doesn't connect. A better analogy would have involed the carrier requiring the full dialing code to make local calls, and not giving a refund because of a "contract". But basically, the analogy is convincing enough. James Garvin <jgarvin2004@comcast.net> looked up from reading the entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say: >> [Good argument, snipped for the sake of not just mindlessly repeating >> it. no offence] [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >I thought it was pretty clear when in the MINIMUM SPECS it said INTERNET >CONNECTION REQUIRED. With the number of software packages that want/need to phone home to register themselves, merely stating "internet connection required" does NOT give you enough information. There's a huge difference between one call to register a product and universally available patches for download, and one that MUST be registered from the computer it's installed on and MUST autopatch from that machine. Considering the number of other things both hardware and software that list the "requirements" on the assumption that you will install every last optional thing they bundled, you can't even make the assumption that the requirements listed are really the requirements at all. Is it really a stretch for a potential buyer to assume that HL2 will want to register itself, and that unless you want to multiplayer it will never need a connection again? Is it really a stretch for them to assume that Valve would make patches available for download exactly as companies have been doing for years? Only Valve didn't do that and there's no mention of that on the box. Xocyll SignatureI don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably, Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr > [Good argument, snipped for the sake of not just mindlessly repeating > it. no offence] [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > never have happened. If people knew what to expect then they wouldn't > be so surprised. Oh puh-leaze. Every game ship I went into had a big banner in front of HL2 stating that an Internet Connection was a must have. Walter Mitty <mitticus@gmail.com> looked up from reading the entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say: >> [Good argument, snipped for the sake of not just mindlessly repeating >> it. no offence] [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >Every game ship I went into had a big banner in front of HL2 stating >that an Internet Connection was a must have. Were those pirate ships? :) Xocyll SignatureI don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably, Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr > Oh puh-leaze. > > Every game ship I went into had a big banner in front of HL2 stating > that an Internet Connection was a must have. They didn't over here (UK). Anyone else see these big banners? > Oh puh-leaze. > > Every game ship I went into had a big banner in front of HL2 stating > that an Internet Connection was a must have. They didn't over here (UK). Anyone else see these big banners? > >> > I don't get it. How is a potential loss of 8 million pounds in the > >retail [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > > Don't they have phone lines in Oregon yet? Yes they do. At least last time I called him. > "steamKILLER" <sayNO2steam@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > jeez, I just figured out who this guy is, ITS KEN LAY from Enron No wrong again It's Comical Ali! He must be <rant snipped> I think they understand the situation and the issues just fine. The main issue in all of this is whether or not the video games industry is evolving beyond the old developer/publisher/retailer system. Leave aside whatever objections you have to Valve's DRM/copy-protection/anti-piracy measures and answer these questions: what value does the retailer bring to the table? And, if you don't need the retailer, why do you need the publisher? If the retailers and the publishers can't come up with reasons to justify their existence (and their share of the pie), then their extinction is inevitable. >I think they understand the situation and the issues just fine. The main >issue in all of this is whether or not the video games industry is [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >reasons to justify their existence (and their share of the pie), then >their extinction is inevitable. You are trying to explain things to someone who thinks the packaging is as important as the game. Save your time and killfile him, facts and rational thoughts all go flying over his head. SignatureAndrew, contact via interpleb.blogspot.com Help make Usenet a better place: English is read downwards, please don't top post. Trim replies to quote only relevant text. Check groups.google.com before asking an obvious question. >> I think they understand the situation and the issues just fine. The >> main issue in all of this is whether or not the video games industry [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > is as important as the game. Save your time and killfile him, facts > and rational thoughts all go flying over his head. I think they're flying out his shop door. I've already mentioned this though. McG. <snip> ok i'll reply cause you make very fair questions although in another thread you do the usual mocking this is what i like doing, having serious interesting and engaging discussions about pc games and not flames insults or mocking btw the retail specialist in this group is john lewis but i'll give it a try and do my best to reply here are my answers to your questions > what value does the retailer bring to the table? the retailer is essential let me repeat, the retailer is absolutely essential and these are the reasons for me why they are essential . fairness and competition: cause the retail channel has a great number of players and they all compete fairly for the market, with steam this fairness and competition is totally killed and monopoly is created . agressive pricing: cause retail has some huge discounts benefiting immensely the consumer in this case pc gamers, and that with steam will completely disappear cause pricing is fixed and discounts never happen . democratic availability: cause retail is the most simple easy and democratic way to buy products, you only need a pair of legs and some cash to buy stuff, with steam you need a computer, you need net connection, you need a credit card, so steam is elitist and will make pc games a luxury item whether now retail makes pc games a popular affordable easy entertainment . worldwide distribution: cause retail is universal and has been available in every country around the world its the best way to distribute and sell products everywhere around the world no matter how far you are and how remote location you live in . protect the package/box: cause retail sells physical items the packaged box in pc games will always be protected and we will always have pc games in physical media like cd or dvd . proof of purchase: cause retail sells you physical items and gives you a receipt you will always have proof of purchase so intrusive and abusive against consumer rights technologies like steam will not be necessary > And, if you don't need the retailer, why do you need the > publisher? you need them all! retailers, publishers and developers this is all economics and quality... look at ea games, they are having lots of problems cause they focus too much on internal development when they should do pure publishing and let the creative part be done by developers to have quality and be economically viable, there has to be separation between developers, publishers and retailers cause it has been proven when someone tries to do all three together they will fail! look at the example of outsourcing the trend is small and specialized so developers should stick with developing, publishers should stick with publishing and retailers should stick with selling and this way all them will be profitable and pc games will have quality hope i've been totally clear and you will finally see i'm right about fighting against steam and valve and protecting the retail channel -- post made in a steam-free computer i said "NO" to valve and steam > . fairness and competition: cause the retail channel has a > great number of players and they all compete fairly for the > market, with steam this fairness and competition is totally > killed and monopoly is created I don't see any competition in the physical stores Online when I buy the media online I see agressive pricing > . agressive pricing: cause retail has some huge discounts > benefiting immensely the consumer in this case pc gamers, > and that with steam will completely disappear cause pricing > is fixed and discounts never happen Comparing the prices for HL2 retail and on Steam Steam is ~ 2 to 3$ above If you add delivery costs buying through Steam is cheaper (and faster) > . democratic availability: cause retail is the most simple > easy and democratic way to buy products, you only need a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > item whether now retail makes pc games a popular affordable > easy entertainment Getting the best buy for retail products (buying online) you need all thre parts as well Besides buying a PC game without having a computer doesn't really make sense does it? > . worldwide distribution: cause retail is universal and has > been available in every country around the world its the > best way to distribute and sell products everywhere around > the world no matter how far you are and how remote location > you live in Hmmm, actually the internet gives you better options here! > . protect the package/box: cause retail sells physical items > the packaged box in pc games will always be protected and we > will always have pc games in physical media like cd or dvd Fair argument, but CD's gets scratched eventually and besides you have copy protection schemes like starforce and securom Valve removed securom protection from HL2 retail due to huge problems with it > . proof of purchase: cause retail sells you physical items > and gives you a receipt you will always have proof of purchase > so intrusive and abusive against consumer rights technologies > like steam will not be necessary Physical items which can be destroyed by theft or fire etc > > And, if you don't need the retailer, why do you need the > > publisher? > > you need them all! retailers, publishers and developers Publishers tends to put a lid on experimental games as these does not expect to sell well Look how things is going in the music industries, being able to buy music directly from the "developer" gives you are broader seelection not just Spice Girls and other pop rubbish > so developers should stick with developing, publishers > should stick with publishing and retailers should stick > with selling and this way all them will be profitable Profitable = more money taken from the consumers > and pc games will have quality A lot of PC game rubbish is sent to on the market Publishers puts a straing on the developer given tight schedules which leads to unfinished low quality products > hope i've been totally clear and you will finally see i'm > right about fighting against steam and valve and protecting > the retail channel I still don't get it Let Valve give it their bests shot, if the consumers doesn't approve it'll die a silent death Again compare with the market for music and see how that market is evolving and expanding in online and direct sale Buying hardware online is a common thing, noone visits a retail store to buy a PC or a disk etc It'll be money right out of your pocket for nothing > btw the retail specialist in this group is john lewis but > i'll give it a try and do my best to reply bwhahahahaha > <rant snipped> > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > existence (and their share of the pie), then their extinction is > inevitable. Simple, clean, well said :) Just like at work: "Nothing personal, just business" McG. Troll <newstroll@shaw.ca> typed as if devouring a plate of spoo: > <rant snipped> > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > existence (and their share of the pie), then their extinction is > inevitable. Well, to buy online you need a credit card, and if your credit's bad, you're screwed. Also even with broadband it takes a long time to download 3 gigs worth of game files over Steam... Signature-- There is no spoon. EvilBill - http://evilbill.50megs.com/index.html My Quake2 FTP site: ftp://65.30.181.223/quake2/EvilBill/ Jack of Hearts of the Eeeevil Trek Cabal (TINC) > Troll <newstroll@shaw.ca> typed as if devouring a plate of spoo: >> <rant snipped> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Also even with broadband it takes a long time to download 3 gigs worth of > game files over Steam... Valve released over 4GB of files on the PCGamer DVD last month... |
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