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Game Forum / Action Games / Half Life 2 / March 2005Sigh:( Half Life 2 deeply flawed... why see inside...
Been playing the game, it's great, but it has one HUGE FLAW. So big I think it spoils the game. What is it? you ask. It jerks every time you move left and right. Even on my Pentium 4, 3.20ghz, 512 MB pc, the screen is so jerky. No matter what resolution, what amount of detail, it jerks. At first I never really noticed; I was blown away with the pretty graphics but after a few hours the jerky movement was plain to see. Why does it jerk so much when you scroll left and right? Forward is super smooth but left and right with the mouse produces a jerky frame rate. To be as frank as possible, I have played smoother shooters on my PS2 than this game. Never thought I would say that but it's true. A great shame as the gameplay, graphics and atmosphere are second to none. But I read no reviews that mentioned the jerky left-right frame rate. Seems blatantly obvious this game is not smooth. Great game but not as cutting edge as the hype and the reviews suggest. If anyone has the game and the left right movement is super smooth, can you tell me what graphics card you're using. Mine is an ATi Mobility Radeon 7000 -with 64 shared mb. Is that good enough to produce a smooth left right frame rate or do I need a faster card? I think it's good enough but I'm not that up to speed with game specs. Many thanks if you can help.:) Yeah, you do need a faster video card. Your Radeon 7000 is a very low DX7 chip using system memory for textures. I'm surprised it runs at all on that. DaveL > If anyone has the game and the left right movement is super smooth, can > you tell me what graphics card you're using. Mine is an ATi Mobility > Radeon 7000 -with 64 shared mb. Is that good enough to produce a > smooth left right frame rate or do I need a faster card? I think it's > good enough but I'm not that up to speed with game specs. > Many thanks if you can help.:) Read the first post on the link here, Dave. Kinda proves you wrong. http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?mode=hybrid&t=33792006 Quote: Hardware independent - the problem is found from onboard sound to audigy 2 to high-end studio sound cards, from Radeon 7000 to X800XT PE, normal HDDs to Raid arrays, 256 mb of ram to 1.5 gb of ram, etc. thought about it a bit, then said... > Read the first post on the link here, Dave. Kinda proves you wrong. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > audigy 2 to high-end studio sound cards, from Radeon 7000 to X800XT PE, > normal HDDs to Raid arrays, 256 mb of ram to 1.5 gb of ram, etc. You're merging two problems - the jerkiness you see, and the sound stuttering. The jerkiness you're experiencing is probably due to your video card, while the sound stuttering is a more common problem. Either way, the game certainly isn't "deeply flawed."  SignatureKevin Steele RetroBlast! Retrogaming News and Reviews www.retroblast.com How can it be my video card when other people with different cards have also suffered the same problem? The problem is real, be it the sound and date lags - it's not to do with my or other people's machines. I know very little about making computer games, but it doesn't take a genius or a talented Valve programmer to know the game is too densely programmed - hence the sound and video lags. Reduce the game content, the extraneous data - such as some trees, pillars, crates, background etc and the game will be super smooth.. If I were a betting person I would bet Valve that would cure the problem. Although HL 2 is an incredible game and has pushed gaming forward, current pc technology is not fast enough to handle the amount of data being processed. It would appear to be that simple a reason, folks. But the game is still fantastic - even with the data lags. But I am certain the game can lose some detail and run smoother. I've just tried it with my ATI Radeon 9600 Pro... no surprise, it's definitely less smooth while straffing or worse turning. In another hand on TV travelling and camera rotations are NEVER smooth, so what do you expect ? I would say that in real life, it is even true. Our brain cannot see travelling images. Our eyes have to "scan" the landscape when travelling on train for example (and then we look like Cylons on ekstasy). You are maybe asking too much. This game already kicks a.s; lets enjoy improvements step-by-step. I think even the most pro Half-Life 2 fan has to acknowledge the game does stutter - even if this doesn't affect every gamer's copy of the game. Here is the best proof I found that I and many others are not exaggerating this... http://www.blep.net/hl2stutter/ I don't think we are asking too much to expect a game that has taken six years to produce to be smooth. I don't think so. The harsh reality looks as if Vivendi put pressure on Valve to finish the game and Valve didn't finish bug testing the game. What is more incredible is the fact the very first sequence in the game is bugged - you have terrible sound lag when the G-man talks. Now unless Valve tested their finished code on one machine alone (which I doubt) it's impossible they would not see this. So why was the game released knowing that on high res mode you get serious sound stutter on the first scene? There is also a genuine conspiracy about this game - namely, not one review I read of this game said the game had bad audio or video stutter. Not one. Sure, they all came out with the stock stuff like "it's the best game ever yadda yadda yadda," but anyone - let alone a seasoned games reviewer - can see this game has serious frame rate problems, glitches and sound problems, and yet they all ignored it. So either they're all going blind or most were encouraged to ignore these faults by Vivendi. I'm not being critical of the actual game,its gameplay - it is superb, but most people don't buy a flashy sportcar and then find out most of the gears don't work. This is how I feel about Half-Life 2. Amazing to look at, fantastic level design etc, but the basic movement is bugged and the game should have been delayed until it was rectified. Posting patches on Steam is not the way to market this game. You wouldn't need patches if the game had been extensively tested prior to release. How can it be my video card when other people with different cards have also suffered the same problem? The problem is real, be it the sound and data lags - it's not to do with my or other people's machines. I know very little about making computer games, but it doesn't take a genius or a talented Valve programmer to know the game is too densely programmed - hence the sound and video lags. Reduce the game content, the extraneous data - such as some trees, pillars, crates, background etc and the game will be super smooth.. If I were a betting person I would bet Valve that would cure the problem. Although HL 2 is an incredible game and has pushed gaming forward, current pc technology is not fast enough to handle the amount of data being processed. It would appear to be that simple a reason, folks. But the game is still fantastic - even with the data lags. But I am certain the game can lose some detail and run smoother. You are missing the point. This game has had problems with an intermittent stutter. It only happens when starting a new level or during an auto save. Most of this problem has been fixed by Valve with steam updates. You have a different problem. Your's is one of non-fluid motion which is caused by inferior video hardware. Now do you understand? DaveL How can it be my video card when other people with different cards have also suffered the same problem? The problem is real, be it the sound and data lags - it's not to do with my or other people's machines. I know very little about making computer games, but it doesn't take a genius or a talented Valve programmer to know the game is too densely programmed - hence the sound and video lags. Reduce the game content, the extraneous data - such as some trees, pillars, crates, background etc and the game will be super smooth.. If I were a betting person I would bet Valve that would cure the problem. Although HL 2 is an incredible game and has pushed gaming forward, current pc technology is not fast enough to handle the amount of data being processed. It would appear to be that simple a reason, folks. But the game is still fantastic - even with the data lags. But I am certain the game can lose some detail and run smoother. You are missing my point! LOL I am not talking solely about sound problems, I know the sound lags at various points. Play the game on mid res for faster sound updates. My point is I and many other gamers have significant video lags. I've posted links to prove this. Many gamers have experienced this. So it's not my video card. It's a fault with the game - be it a bug or some kind or the game is too detailed for current processors and video cards. Maybe it's a mixture of the two. Let me reiterate - enter a sparse room or less populated area in HL2 and the left-right mouse frame update is smooth - go into a populated area and it's noticably jerky. I can't make it clearer than that. Just think about one thing : In two years when you would have buy your brand new Pentium 6 - 12 GHz - 15 Gb RAM, you will still enjoy playing HL? because it will be still as good as you remembered, plus it will be better regarding the SLIGHT "flaws" you are talking about and that would have disappear. =) I see your point clearly, especially since your most recent reply makes it crystal clear. It's not a bug. It's just that your video is not good enough to play it smoothly. You still doubt me? Try Doom3. That game will surely be a slide show for you. This is the way newer games will be for you. It's not a bug. It's just that the developers made it to run on more powerful hardware. This is the way computer gaming progresses. One day my Radeon 9600XT will not be able to play new games either. If I want to play them with a certain amount of smoothness then I will have to upgrade. With this video card I can run HL2 at 1024 x 768 with 2AA and 2AF and medium quality settings. If I try to set it any higher the smoothness decreases and all movements are jerky. The more detail on the screen, the harder it is on the video card. This is the way it is. Accept it. DaveL > You are missing my point! LOL > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > and the left-right mouse frame update is smooth - go into a populated > area and it's noticably jerky. I can't make it clearer than that. "I see your point clearly, especially since your most recent reply makes it crystal clear. It's not a bug. It's just that your video is not good enough to play it smoothly. You still doubt me? Try Doom3. That game will surely be a slide show for you. This is the way newer games will be for you. It's not a bug. It's just that the developers made it to run on more powerful hardware. This is the way computer gaming progresses. One day my Radeon 9600XT will not be able to play new games either. If I want to play them with a certain amount of smoothness then I will have to upgrade. With this video card I can run HL2 at 1024 x 768 with 2AA and 2AF and medium quality settings. If I try to set it any higher the smoothness decreases and all movements are jerky. The more detail on the screen, the harder it is on the video card. This is the way it is. Accept it." I have already posted links which prove it is not a video card issue. Please don't ignore what I posted. PROOF: http://www.blep.net/hl2stutter/ Quote: How Big is the Problem? Within hours of 12:01 AM PST on November 16th I started seeing forum postings about this on Rage3D.To date there have been well over a thousand postings on the problem. The Steam User Forums has a thread on this problem with over 200,000 views. There have been polls conducted showing that the majority of Half-Life 2 players are having this problem. The following are links to major threads on this issue: Audio Stuttering (Steam Users Forum) (1,700+ posts, 200,000+ views) Audio Problem with HL2 (Halflife2.net) (760+ posts, 81,000+ views) Game Skipping (Half-Life Fallout Forums) (110+ posts) Audio Problems (Halflife2.net) (60+ posts, 6,000+ views) Anyone get small 'stuttering' in HL2? (Halflife2.net) (50+ posts, 5,000+ views) Half-Life 2 Tech Thread: Loading Tweak p16 (Penny Arcade Forums) (650+ posts, 27,000+ views) Half-Life 2 stuttering issue (Rage3D Forums) Half-Life 2 Thread of Release (Shacknews Comments) 1 Half-Life 2 Thread of Release (Shacknews Comments) 2 Games: Half Life 2 Stuttering Bug Official (Slashdot) (300+ posts) What we know about the Half Life 2 stuttering issue thus far ([H]ard|Forum) (90+ posts, 2,600+ views) Okay, convinced? Thousands of people have experienced this. Not just me. I have the retail version - go read the back, Dave. It gives the minimum requirements - I have more than the minimum requirements - so too thousands of other gamers. So the game should have zero or very little frame/sound lag - but it does - even in low and medium resolution (slow frame rate persists). You saying it's my video card at fault is not placing the blame with Valve. It's their job to release a smooth game, not mine. If my pc has the right specs then I am entitled to expect a smooth game. Save your saliva Dave, we are dealing with a fanatic (anti-fanatic actually). He doesn't understand that Forums are mainly like newspaper : Noone will report that the chef of your favorite restaurant has prepared the best-ever dinner one has to taste in centuries... but that a car accident caused 10 casualties will be more likely (over-)reported. He is young. Hopefully he will grow-up. -------- Eric You are missing my point! LOL I am not talking solely about sound problems, I know the sound lags at various points. Play the game on mid res for faster sound updates. My point is I and many other gamers have significant video lags. I've posted links to prove this. Many gamers have experienced this. So it's not my video card. It's a fault with the game - be it a bug of some kind or the game is too detailed for current processors and video cards. Maybe it's a mixture of the two. Let me reiterate - enter a sparse room or less populated area in HL2 and the left-right mouse frame update is smooth - go into a populated area and it's noticably jerky. I can't make it clearer than that. Reply > The jerkiness you're experiencing is probably due to your video card, > while the sound stuttering is a more common problem. > > Either way, the game certainly isn't "deeply flawed." Given the long wait, the "Dog ate.. er.. we mean hacked our server" excuses for the delays and so-on, I'd say a game that still gets released with crap like that stuttering problem has to be on the "deeply flawed" shortlist, at least sitting somewhere out on a nominee's table for the award gala even if it doesn't get its name picked out of the envelope. I think you'll find that not many laptops out there can run this game smoothly. DaveL > Read the first post on the link here, Dave. Kinda proves you wrong. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > audigy 2 to high-end studio sound cards, from Radeon 7000 to X800XT PE, > normal HDDs to Raid arrays, 256 mb of ram to 1.5 gb of ram, etc. my card is the ati 8500 with 128mb, noproblems here at all. > If anyone has the game and the left right movement is super smooth, can > you tell me what graphics card you're using. Mine is an ATi Mobility > Radeon 7000 -with 64 shared mb. Is that good enough to produce a > smooth left right frame rate or do I need a faster card? I think it's > good enough but I'm not that up to speed with game specs. > Many thanks if you can help.:) >If anyone has the game and the left right movement is super smooth, can >you tell me what graphics card you're using. Mine is an ATi Mobility >Radeon 7000 -with 64 shared mb. Is that good enough to produce a >smooth left right frame rate or do I need a faster card? I think it's >good enough but I'm not that up to speed with game specs. >Many thanks if you can help.:) Shared memory graphics card? You gotta be f.cking kidding! Your ATI 7000 may be on the edge of unusability with this game, as well as processor speed. My ThinkPad T40 with a Radeon 7500 64MB non-shared and 1.6GHz Centrino plays fairly smoothly but there is some stutter. How much system RAM do you have? That may be where your problem is. Also make sure all the video and audio settings are set to low quality. And Feelgood (I'm not going to dignify you by calling you Dr.), although this person's laptop may be of low power, he may just want to be able to play HL2 while traveling or away from home. Not very useful are you? Not everybody has the money to buy the latest and greatest. Do you? >>If anyone has the game and the left right movement is super smooth, can >>you tell me what graphics card you're using. Mine is an ATi Mobility [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Shared memory graphics card? You gotta be f.cking kidding! thought about it a bit, then said... > Been playing the game, it's great, but it has one HUGE FLAW. So big I > think it spoils the game. What is it? you ask. > > It jerks every time you move left and right. Go into your video options, select the "Advanced" button, and set the "Wait for Vertical Sync" option to Enabled. And, um, I don't see many (any?) others bitching about your problem. Like you said, none of the reviews mention it. Seems blatantly obvious the problem is with your system, not the game. > Even on my Pentium 4, 3.20ghz, 512 MB pc, the screen is so jerky. No > matter what resolution, what amount of detail, it jerks. At first I [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > rate. Seems blatantly obvious this game is not smooth. Great game but > not as cutting edge as the hype and the reviews suggest. SignatureKevin Steele RetroBlast! Retrogaming News and Reviews www.retroblast.com Hey, I have altered every setting in video mode, it still jerks. Don't get me wrong, it's not the worst jerky movement one could experience - it's just not smooth. Here, I can prove it. Go play the game right now. Walk or run forward - look at the smooth frame rate. It's super smooth. Now move the mouse left or right and see that it's not as smooth. That's all I am saying. Just expected the left right update to be as smooth as the forward and back. But clearly it's not. Unless my PC is slow - and being a Pent 4 it's not, it's the game at fault, not my system. thought about it a bit, then said... > Hey, I have altered every setting in video mode, it still jerks. Don't > get me wrong, it's not the worst jerky movement one could experience - [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > slow - and being a Pent 4 it's not, it's the game at fault, not my > system. Turning seems just fine on my system (P4 3.06Ghz w/6800). I'm guessing it looks smoother to you going forward and backward just because the graphics aren't changing as dramatically (i.e., a wall is just scaling bigger, rather than whole chunks of scenery moving past). I suspect it's more of an optical illusion than anything else. I'd go to the Steam forums and see if you can find others with your problem, and find a solution. SignatureKevin Steele RetroBlast! Retrogaming News and Reviews www.retroblast.com I have played the game some more in windows box format - smaller sized screen - and it looks even better graphics-wise. :)The game is outstanding but the frame rate does stutter when in certain environments - such as in hotel rooms (see level 1) and when a number of grunts are attacking. I am no pc expert, but I have noticed the frame rate stutters more when the shading is lighter. When you pass lights, light colored walls etc the frame rate shows a glitch like old videotape noise. It's not that bad - just something you spot. By the way, if you look on the Steam forum, it pretty much confirms what I have been posting. Here, check this out: http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?s=c72407c64ae8e9827d0995990 4fc39a4&threadid=189238# So I am not making this up! LOL But the game is still outstanding. Perhaps saying the game was deeply flawed was a bit of unfair of me, it's not. Perhaps the reality is Valve put too much detail into the game and even Pentium 4 processors can't cope with it. In hindsight, perhaps there should have been a 'reduce object content' setting. I think that would speed up the frame rate and remove the odd jerk. I don't know if Valve look on this newsgroup, or if they can add a new setting to the game, but if they reduced the background detail a little, say some of the stuff which no one really notices when they are in the heat of action, that could speed up the game. See, lower resolution and lower detail doesn't alter the amount of objects on screen. That's why the game is fastest when you're in a tunnel or corridor. The processor has less to do because it's only got a few objects to calculate. When you reach the big built up areas and the grunts are attacking, the pc is having to pull its weight to calculate the movement etc. So a lower object count setting should solve the problem. I think it's worth Valve introducing it. Having written all of the above, the game is amazing - best graphics I have ever seen, great gameplay. One of the best games I have ever played. It's like playing a 'real-life' game. I would say it's the most significant game since the introduction of video games way back in the mid-1970s. Real-time physics, photo-realistic graphics - Half-Life 2 has set a new standard. The first true 'real-life' game. A tremendous achievement, Valve. I think this proves there is a stutter problem.... http://vote.sparklit.com/poll.spark?pollID=887521 Tell you what, not that I know much about game technology, but I think I will email Valve and see if they will consider adding a new 'lower object content' setting. Could make the game smoother. thought about it a bit, then said... > I think this proves there is a stutter problem.... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I will email Valve and see if they will consider adding a new 'lower > object content' setting. Could make the game smoother. The stuttering problem you point out is sound stuttering, not video "glitches" when turning left and right. It's a sudden drop in frame rates when entering new areas or right before scripted actions happen. I had a bit of that, but the latest patches fixed it for me. Not accusing you of making anything up, but to post that HL2 is "deeply flawed" is a bit of hyperbole, don't you think? SignatureKevin Steele RetroBlast! Retrogaming News and Reviews www.retroblast.com "Not accusing you of making anything up, but to post that HL2 is "deeply flawed" is a bit of hyperbole, don't you think?" Nope, not really. Just type in " Half Life 2 stuttering" in your search engine to see how common a problem it is. Clearly, it's a program flaw. I doubt it's the sound alone - it's the frame update. Go down any empty corridor and move left and right and there is no or hardly any glitch. Do the same in any object-heavy location and there is a glitch. Every type the screen updates you get a slow frame rate. Indeed, I was on level two, the bit where you're in that room with the flying buzzsaws and there are explosive crates on the floor. If you destroy the crates - guess what - the frame update is smoother. So there's the proof. Lower the polygons on screen and you solve the problem. The game does suffer with poor sound update, this is also true, but so far the worst sound was at the beginning with the G-Man chap. After that on high res the sound has been okay on the whole. But I've only played two levels so far. |
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