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Game Forum / Simulators / Aviation Simulators / September 2008The FS9 Trident
Still regard this as the most realistic of the heavies in FS9 when flying the virtual cockpit. If you can keep it in the air you have really achieved something as it requires constant attention and quite a bit of homework when using the AP..... and it's a freeby http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v83/donbutts/terminus.jpg Butts >Still regard this as the most realistic of the heavies in FS9 when >flying the virtual cockpit. If you can keep it in the air you have [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Butts Yeah.. here's Capt. ummm (help me out - from the DF forum) in his Trident.. http://home.comcast.net/~flightsim/TriCruise.jpg http://home.comcast.net/~flightsim/TriCruise_25.jpg -G > On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 14:30:17 -0700 (PDT), donbu...@xtra.co.nz brought the following to our > attention: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > -G thanks for pics. Can anyone tell me which airport I'm at?? Butts > Yeah.. here's Capt. ummm (help me out - from the DF forum) in his > Trident.. I think that's Peter McLeland you have there, Gregory, - he did the autoland tutorial for the DM Trident and was most helpful to me when I had a small problem with it (turned out the problem was with my FF2 and not with either the aircraft or the tutorial!). Roger. >"Gregory" <flightsim.maps@bkwds.comcast.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Roger Yes.. that's who it is! One time in the forum I replied about the Trident, that I would never have signed off on the nose gear design. :)) -G Hi Don, I take it that it's the DM Flight (David Maltby) model. I like his BAC 111. Excellent. Pete (Stafford, UK) > Hi Don, > I take it that it's the DM Flight (David Maltby) model. > I like his BAC 111. Excellent. > > Pete (Stafford, UK) that's the one Pete. David's work is exceptional .. and don't be in a hurry winding in the flaps on a full tank as the buildings rapidly tend to get bigger!! Don > Still regard this as the most realistic of the heavies in FS9 when > flying the virtual cockpit. If you can keep it in the air you have > really achieved something as it requires constant attention and quite > a bit of homework when using the AP..... and it's a freeby Agreed Don but I haven't had the bird out for a while. Must rectify that! :-)  SignatureIain Rugby, UK On Aug 28, 10:58 pm, "Iain Smith" <iainsmithdotrugbyatbtinternetdotcom> wrote: > <donbu...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Iain > Rugby, UK Hi there Iain Do just that. Do you fly the VC only?? Don >Do just that. Do you fly the VC only?? I tend to get better frame rates with the 2D on my rig, Don, although if memory serves (doesn't always, these days!) the Trident VC is not too bad in this respect. However, I think the VCs are more suited to the TrackIR users. I'm usually quite happy with 2D panels. :-) SignatureIain Rugby, UK > >Do just that. Do you fly the VC only?? > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Iain > Rugby, UK I think I've got the same rig as you Iain and have quite good frame rates apart from heavy clouds and overdone terminals. But the realism comes with the VC and using the unique VC icon you quickly click to the quadrant or all the left right views or backwards and forwards for close ups fast without losing the plot like other aircraft VC's.. So I set frequencies, flaps, droop, trim gear etc quickly as a pilot would rather than experiencing a floating pop up at eye level. With a bit of practice it's the ultimate. Don Hi Butts, I already had the BAC 1-11, so I knew where to look for it. So I got myself this nice shiny Trident, read the paperwork (did I?) and I was really looking forward to get it airborne for the first time. Rwy 17R at Colorado Springs may not be what you are looking for with a first flight because of density altitude, but hey, nobody said it was going to be easy... And for sure I was in for a surprise. Almost halfway down the runway all three engines just quit! The fuel panel showed three yellow lights as if the pressure was gone, but the pumps were on. That's odd! So I reset the sim, and tried another take-off and the same thing happened about V1. Where did I go wrong? I must say that the manual coming with the package did not really impress me. Or is there a better one somewhere else? The plane is very nice, but it seems to be like you said: if you can keep it in the air. I did not even get that far :-(( Loek > Still regard this as the most realistic of the heavies in FS9 when > flying the virtual cockpit. If you can keep it in the air you have [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Butts Might have to use slew mode and glide it in :P > Hi Butts, > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >> >> Butts > Hi Butts, > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Loek Hi Loek When I get a chance I'll try and find the download.. was there a fix?? I got a feeling a few changes were made I've never experienced that prob... clicking the positive thrust is necessary ( click gauges RH side on the VC) If there is an obvious problem guess my first action would to be to remove the program and redownload the complete package from David's site and start again and that would check out a heap of possibilities. Butts Hi Butts, Personally I think I am doing something wrong somewhere. I've got everything originally from www.dmflightsim.co.uk/hs121_trident.htm No, I've not seen anything like a patch or so. And for the thrust index, it should work automatically as it says in the manual: "The gauge does work in FS and will automatically calculate the index number using the current temperature & pressure." If you want to compare it, at KCOS runway 17 it showed a thrust index of 45 on the dial with yesterday's weather (Active Sky6). But I will experiment with it during my next FS9 session. See what happens. Will keep you posted. Loek On Aug 29, 11:50 am, "Loek" <just...@me.nl> wrote: > Hi Butts, > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Loek Hi Loek When I get a chance I'll try and find the download.. was there a fix?? I got a feeling a few changes were made I've never experienced that prob... clicking the positive thrust is necessary ( click gauges RH side on the VC) If there is an obvious problem guess my first action would to be to remove the program and redownload the complete package from David's site and start again and that would check out a heap of possibilities. Butts Hello, Loek, > Hi Butts, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Sky6). But I will experiment with it during my next FS9 session. See what > happens. Will keep you posted. Could it be you didn't switch on the APU? The manual somewhere states its not functional in this model, but it definitely does fire up when you start it. I just downloaded the Trident and installed it and just flew 30 minutes to see if I could find all the gauches <g> and didn't have any engine failure whatsoever. I did fire up that APU though before anything else. > Loek Maybe this helps....;-)) Greetings from grayish Amsterdam, Jan Hoi Jan, Thanks for the input. The APU should not be a player.....should! In general it serves as an aid on the ground to get electrical power and (some) hydraulics. Dependingt on the aircraft type you may switch it off duriing taxi or directly after take-off. I do not see how it can interfere with fuel flow to the engine. And the funny (or better weird?) part is that after the engines quit, the only thing I could start up was the APU. I will give it another try later. Oh yes Jan, give it a try at KCOS with an altitude of 6000' plus. It's just as grey here in Friesland...... somebody said it should all improve.... Loek > Hello, Loek, > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Jan Hello Loek, > Hoi Jan, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > And the funny (or better weird?) part is that after the engines quit, the > only thing I could start up was the APU. I will give it another try later. Okee, that let the cat out of the bag that I'm only an armchair aviator...;-)) However, according to the very slim manual of the Trident, engine stoppidge only occurs when all booster pumps aro switched off on the fuel panel. The three yellow lights that come on you mentioned earlier are an indication for this. The manual also states that all is in the "ready to go" position initially, but maybe for some reason the pumps get switched off, maybe a keyboard shortcut you intended for something else, or a default setting from another aircraft that sets them to off on load of the Trident.... > Oh yes Jan, give it a try at KCOS with an altitude of 6000' plus. Ah, yes I did. No problems actually, a little more flaps on takeoff and a little more runup to 70% before releasing the breakes. One does need almost all of the runway, but that's expectable at that altitude I presume. Maybe I'll try it again including the use of the engine boosters, see what difference that makes...;-) > It's just as grey here in Friesland...... somebody said it should all > improve.... > > Loek Greetings from scattered Amsterdam, Jan Hoi Jan, Especially the last part of your message has crossed my mind as well. So, right at this moment I will firss select the default Cessna, then I will move on to the Trident. Funny thing is that I gave it a try this afternoon, smooth as silk, no problem, but I had to break it off for a great supper. :-) Just 5 minutes ago I tried the same and right after take-off all three engines failed again. So I will go for the Cesnna-Trident trick. I had changed from the Chipmuk to the Trident before. See ya, Loek PS, it was really sunny this afternoon. That has been a while!! > Hello Loek, > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > Jan Well Jan, I gave up. For some reason I got airborne with the Trident 2 once afternoon, but all other attempts failed for unknown reason. As if the fuel supply suddenly stops without any indication of fuel pump or valves being closed. But the lights do come on. with the pumps on!!?? And it always happens somewehere at the end of the runway, with or without water injection (no difference noted btw). I'm off to Maastricht this weekend, I'll check it out again on Monday. For now I'll tuck in and try to survive the nightmares of crashing at the end of the runway.... again and again.... :-)) Goed weekend! Loek > Hoi Jan, > [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] >> >> Jan Hello Loek, > Well Jan, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the nightmares of crashing at the end of the runway.... again and > again.... :-)) Hmm, I had look at the Classic British Flight Sim Forum (you get there by a link on the DM site) and what's happening to you could be an overheating problem of the engines. The top three temp gauches for the engines shouldn't exceed the yellow part of the scale or the engines will quit due to overheating. Remedies are not to use full throttle (duh) on takeoff, or... engage the heat limiter switches found on the startup engine panel in the 2D cockpit..., or at the bottom right of the pedestal in the VC version. Since I haven't looked at these switches at all, I don't know if they where engaged or not during my test runs, so maybe I was lucky, or the Trident 3 model I used is less prone to overheating than the 2 version. All in all, maybe something to have a look at when you get back...;-)) > Goed weekend! Eensgelijks... > Loek Greetings from sunny Amsterdam, Jan I just had a Trident flight using A/P for climb and all was going good holding 170 knots on gear up and minimal climb and briefly after, I engaged autopilot runway heading, set 5000ft ,240 speed acquire, engage all and seemed ok. But a stall warning came up at 165 knots and I had to switch off A/P level off but was still sinking holding 165 knots. Descended until land skim and slowly climbed out of it. Engaged autopilot, checked settings and at 250 knots it took 50 miles to get to 5000 feet!! Did a 360deg and returned home on successfull ILS landing. This happens now and again (usually I crash but getting wiser) Different flap settings made no difference and spoiler was not inadertantly on. ??? Butts Hello Donneybutts, >I just had a Trident flight using A/P for climb and all was going good > holding 170 knots on gear up and minimal climb and briefly after, I [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > to 5000 feet!! Did a 360deg and returned home on successfull ILS > landing. Hmm, sounds scary <g>. You'll notice that well modelled AC have a much more realistic power ratio than the default FS9 aircraft. That's why flying on the numbers is a must. As mentioned before to Loek, I'm in no way an expert, but some pointers may help you the next time. An important thing to stay airborne are the slats. In FS9 they are activated as the first press on the F7 key, keypresses after that are for the flaps. When reducing the flap position on climb, whatever you do, don't press F6 once to often, or the slats get retracted as well and you're in trouble. You need at least 225kts before retracting these. Indication dials are directly on the main panel under the engine readouts. Left is the slat indicator that depicts a 'V' shape when deployed and to the right is the flap indicator. As soon as positive climb is established retract the gear, reduce the trim up to approx 2.0% and reduce throttle to 95% to prevent engine shutdown due to overheating. Try to keep your vertical speed between 1 and two thousand feet a minute and above 180 a 200kts start retracting flaps depending on how much you initially set. And then there's the A/P. I'm still figuring that one out <g>. As far as I understand it now, there are two possebillities. Either you engage IAS hold as you have acquired the speed you want to hold on climb, or you set Hight aquire and use the vertical speed dial to make sure your climb angle doesn't reduce speed by the current throttle setting. I so far used the the second option, but I will have to do some more tests...;-)) Note btw, that you can dial in your required altitude while still doing your initial checks on the ground by activating the A/P, dialing in the altitude, and then switching the A/P off again. > This happens now and again (usually I crash but getting wiser) > Different flap settings made no difference and spoiler was not > inadertantly on. > > ??? Hope this helps a little...;-) > Butts Greetings from sunny Amsterdam, Jan On Aug 31, 9:49 pm, "Jan Bijsterbosch" <j.bijsterbloc...@hccnet.nl> wrote: > Hello Donneybutts, > [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > Jan I meant to thank you for this Jan Don > This happens now and again (usually I crash but getting wiser) > Different flap settings made no difference and spoiler was not > inadertantly on. Don, I've flown this thing before but now I can't get airborne! As soon as I lift off I get a stall warning and soon after sink to a crash, just like a BEA Trident did near Heathrow in 1972 - except I don't get as high as he did! On the checklist I have blue ticks against trim and flap setting and I have the V speeds showing. I rotate at the stated speed but no go! Any ideas? SignatureIain Rugby, UK Hello Iain, >> This happens now and again (usually I crash but getting wiser) >> Different flap settings made no difference and spoiler was not [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > have the V speeds showing. I rotate at the stated speed but no go! Any > ideas? Well, just had some real trouble for the first time when I had switched on the temp hold switches before takeoff, just to see what that would do... Hmm, not a good idea since they force a throttle back to 92% thrust long before the temperatures get into the danger zone. Felt a little like George Formbey singing "It's in the air", but no longer than five seconds...;-)) Somewhere the manual states you can set 100% thrust by clicking on the top of the thrust index gauche, so I presume the key to success lies there. It also states that if 100% cannot be reached this way the start should be aborted. Hmm, time to do some more tests... > Iain > Rugby, UK Greetings from hazy Amsterdam, Jan > Don, I've flown this thing before but now I can't get airborne! As soon as > I lift off I get a stall warning and soon after sink to a crash, just like > a BEA Trident did near Heathrow in 1972 - except I don't get as high as he > did! hey yay that's the big prob I have..or had Let it run a little longer on the tarmac climb 5 - 10deg max and dont lift the droop before 225 k No probs at all if you siphon the tanks out a bit I can't imaging a commercial airliner having to be this finnicky and risky so I guess it's not a quite correct simulation in this repect CFG needs a tweak?? Don > I can't imaging a commercial airliner having to be this finnicky and > risky so I guess it's not a quite correct simulation in this repect > CFG needs a tweak?? Yes I think you're right Don. I did manage a circuit flying manually but then I tried a longer flight using the AP. How on earth does that thing work? For example, altitude. I had 'accquire' selected and the 'engage' button pulled but it went sailing past the dialled-in altitude and I could not get it to settle at the right point. I kept trimming to no avail and ended up way to high over the runway so I ended the session in disgust! Re the 1972 crash at LHR. I seem to remember two contributing factors. The captain had a heart attack at a critical moment during departure and, because the crew had switched off the stall warning horn due to previous spurious faults, the leading edge slats were not retracted soon enough. As you say, a finnicky a/craft. If they were really like that it's a wonder there weren't more crashes! SignatureIain Rugby, UK > Somewhere the manual states you can set 100% thrust by clicking on the top > of the thrust index gauche, so I presume the key to success lies there. It > also states that if 100% cannot be reached this way the start should be > aborted. > Hmm, time to do some more tests... Hello Jan, Did another circuit in the Trident 2 this afternoon, this time using the AP and, unlike yesterday, it worked for all three modes, throttle, alt and hdg. So some progress but it seems from what Gregory linked to that it was known to be difficult to get in the air. I'm so used to the Boeing 737NG that will climb out at 4000 feet per min that I've been spoiled and obviously having it too easy! :-) SignatureIain Rugby, UK On Sep 2, 6:06 am, "Iain Smith" <iainsmithdotrugbyatbtinternetdotcom> wrote: > > Somewhere the manual states you can set 100% thrust by clicking on the top > > of the thrust index gauche, so I presume the key to success lies there. It [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Iain > Rugby, UK Try 60-70% fuel each time and it's much more enjoyable Iain I have 'flown' the Trident for some time now and have found that the A/ P can get it's knickers in a twist and won't undo and is sometimes caused by incorrect sequencing on our part As I described earlier it took 50 miles to get to 5000 ft.. even manual wouldn't respond..the bug had set in to the program .. I should have shut down and started again Don Hello Jan, That indeed is the only remaining solution. Overtemping in this version does punish you!! Problem is then that you wil not be able to take off from KCOS with a full load of fuel. Looking at it's elevation of 6200' alone and the thrust available (21000lbs per engine) taking off at these elevations on hot days may pose a real challenge. Maybe Oskar (or others) can add to this? > Hello Loek, > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Jan Hello Loek, > Hello Jan, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > elevations on hot days may pose a real challenge. Maybe Oskar (or others) > can add to this? Well, that's the reason I didn't had a problem there at KCOS then, I hardly ever fly with a full fuel load. Most of the time it's at 60 a 65%. The 3 version can just manage that without the extra booster engine. Some of the speeds mentioned in the manual are a puzzle still. Even with a vertical speed of under 1000ft a minute at seems to take quite a while to reach some critical ones... Depending on where you want to go from Colorado and all the mountains around, this can be quite an adventurous excercise...;-)) Greetings from cloudy Amsterdam, Jan >Hello Loek, > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Jan Doesn't the Trident 3 have a 4th boost engine (just above No2 on the tail) used for some T/O conditions? -G Hello Gregory, >>Hello Loek, >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >>> fuel supply suddenly stops without any indication of fuel pump or valves >>> being closed. But the lights do come on. with the pumps on!!?? [ little snip ] >>Hmm, I had look at the Classic British Flight Sim Forum (you get there by >>a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >>in >>the 2D cockpit [ little snip ] > Doesn't the Trident 3 have a 4th boost engine (just above No2 on the tail) > used for some T/O conditions? Yup, it does. Although I don't know if its one extra engine, or somehow incorporated in number two. The very small manual doesn't make that clear at all.<g> There is stated however that the boost engine would only be used for a full load on short runways. To quote, a 2500 meter (approx 8000ft) runway is plenty at any weight... I personally haven't tried the Trident 2 version yet, that's the one Loek was trying out. It could very well be the version 3 was develloped to make it able to handle airfields like KCOS more easy. > -G Greetings from sunny Amsterdam, Jan >Hello Gregory, > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >a full load on short runways. To quote, a 2500 meter (approx 8000ft) runway >is plenty at any weight... The boost engine is that littl' bulge and nozzle just above No.2 engine and below the rudder (at least I think so.) Here's what I came up with on an info/history sheet. Capt. Peter described the Trident in some detail a few years ago in the forums. http://www.shockcone.co.uk/hs121/trident/history.htm ( see boost engine ) -G >I personally haven't tried the Trident 2 version yet, that's the one Loek >was trying out. It could very well be the version 3 was develloped to make [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Jan Gregory, Jan, I took her up for a 1 hour spin again from KCOS and learned a lot. Still room for improvement though, especially with its take-off and initial climb at high altitude. If that works, sea-level take-offs should be a piece of cake. I aborted the first take-off as I did not trust the acceleration with reduced thrust. Thrust index showed 40! Not too much indeed. RPM went back to approximately 93%, fuel load about 40%. There should be a possibility to tell ATC about aborted take-offs in FS. Now the runway will remain for you even while taxiing back for the next take-off attempt. I just ignored the extreme hot brakes this method should show as a result and took off again with manual EGT control. Very, very gentle on the controls top get some speed, but after that it was all quite easy. I experimented with the autopilot, inbound radial intercepts and outbound. climbs, descents, acquiring altitude, throttle IAS and Mach hold and completed the trip with an ILS on KCOS 35L resulting in a greaser.... of course :-)). Fun, I even start to enjoy the immense noise of the engines :-) Loek >>Hello Gregory, >> [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] >> >> Jan Hello Gregory, [ big snip ] > The boost engine is that littl' bulge and nozzle just above No.2 engine > and below [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > http://www.shockcone.co.uk/hs121/trident/history.htm ( see boost > engine ) Thanks for the link, an interesting read. The pictures definitely show the little nozzle above number two, that however, I'm sorry to say, is missing from the DM Trident 3 model in FS9. Hence the confusion...;-)) > -G Greetings from rainy Amsterdam, Jan |
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