Game Forum / Role Playing Games / Final Fantasy / January 2006
Democratic Party may not be around much longer
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Bob - 24 Dec 2005 08:37 GMT The Liberal Democratic meltdown continues...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ibd/20051217/bs_ibd_ibd/20051216issues01
Pelosi's Punt
Democrats have essentially declared that their position on Iraq will be ... to take no position at all. Has there ever been a more cowardly decision made by an American political party?
House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi of California told The Washington Post that the Democrats' agenda for next year's elections will not include a position on an exit strategy in Iraq, perhaps the most significant issue of the moment.
This is breathtaking. For the current crop of Democrats, the war won't be an issue for the party to rally around. Instead, it will be a point of contention. Incredibly, Pelosi claimed that clashing positions within the party are a source of strength.
We're not convinced by Pelosi's big tent theory, and we bet she isn't either. She has to know that voters outside the Democratic base -- and probably many within it -- are going to be upset by the lack of courage to take a stand.
In some ways, Pelosi and other Democratic leaders are being realists. It would be tough to cobble together a unified position on Iraq when the party is so fragmented on the issue.
Some party members -- Pelosi, for instance -- have opposed the war from the beginning. Party Chairman Howard Dean is another. He's been openly hostile toward the war since he made it a primary theme in his run for the presidency last year. Since then, Dean's gone even further, most recently saying the idea the U.S. can win the war is "just plain wrong."
Rep. Earl Pomeroy (news, bio, voting record), a Democrat from North Dakota, responded by asking Dean to "shut up." He must have felt, as we did, that the chairman's statement was a thinly cloaked wish that America loses.
Other Democrats -- Sen. Joe Lieberman of Connecticut and House Minority Whip Steny Hoyer, most prominently -- have generally supported the war and the White House's position.
Still others supported the war before they opposed it.
Voters deserve consistency from their political parties, especially on a matter this important. But Democrats apparently want to act as if Iraq doesn't even exist.
That doesn't mean they won't continue to sabotage our Iraq efforts by making spurious calls for a "withdrawal timetable," demoralizing our troops in Iraq with their defeatist beliefs and raising phony civil rights issues as a smoke screen for opposing the war.
Last Friday, for instance, Democrats led the way in turning back an extension of the Patriot Act -- a law that has helped the U.S. avoid a catastrophic terrorist attack for more than four years. Now, following The New York Times' lead, they're wailing about White House phone taps on terrorists here -- even though those taps foiled at least one potential terrorist attack. Whose side are they on?
At some point, you have to stand up for your beliefs, your ideals, your country. And many fine Democrats do. But when party leaders won't, it's no surprise people mistrust them on national security.
Democrats, it's time for a long, hard look in the mirror. A party that gets no respect isn't likely to be a party for long.
Manco - 24 Dec 2005 09:00 GMT > The Liberal Democratic meltdown continues... > > http://news.yahoo.com/s/ibd/20051217/bs_ibd_ibd/20051216issues01 > > Pelosi's Punt They don't stand for anything except hate Bush, hate capitalism, hate America. No wonder they haven't won a national majority since 1976.
Charlie Board - 24 Dec 2005 23:19 GMT >>The Liberal Democratic meltdown continues... >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > They don't stand for anything except hate Bush, hate capitalism, hate > America. No wonder they haven't won a national majority since 1976. And yet somehow have managed to get more votes in three of the last four Presidential elections, get more votes in combined House races last year, and get more combined votes in the most recent election for each current sitting Senator than the Republicans.
Dewey - 28 Dec 2005 16:16 GMT > > The Liberal Democratic meltdown continues... > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > They don't stand for anything except hate Bush, hate capitalism, hate > America. No wonder they haven't won a national majority since 1976. You do know that 56% of Americans voted for Democratic candidates for House and Senate in 2004, right?
Dr. Edward Kirk - 04 Jan 2006 15:01 GMT Manco.. 2006 is when we take back what is ours and make people like you STFU. peope can see what a corrupt colossus the GOP is and right now is going to be a painful year for them
TLG - 05 Jan 2006 07:33 GMT > Manco.. 2006 is when we take back what is ours "Take back what is ours?"
Really? Seems to me we heard that in 1998. And 2002. And 2004.
As for 2006...remains to be seen, I suppose.
That's the problem with the Dems -- they think they represent the American majority, but they don't. They think they own the US government, but they don't.
Very elitist bunch, those Dems.
* * *
Democrat Hypocrisy on Parade:
"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons." - Sen. Jay Rockefeller, D-W.Va.
"The war against terrorism will not be finished as long as (Saddam Hussein) is in power." - Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich.
"Saddam Hussein, in effect, has thumbed his nose at the world community. And I think that the president's approaching this in the right fashion." - Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev.
"[It] is Hussein's vigorous pursuit of biological, chemical and nuclear weapons, and his present and potential future support for terrorist acts and organizations, that make him a terrible danger to the people to the United States." - Senator Charles Schumer D-N.Y.
"We know that [Saddam] has stored away secret supplies of biological weapons and chemical weapons throughout his country." - President Bill Clinton, September 23, 2002
"Iraq is a long way from [America], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risk that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face. And it is a threat against which we must and will stand firm. In discussing Iraq, we begin by knowing that Saddam Hussein, unlike any other leader, has used weapons of mass destruction even against his own people." - Secretary of State Madelyn Albright, February 18, 1998
Dewey - 05 Jan 2006 15:37 GMT > That's the problem with the Dems -- they think they represent the > American majority, but they don't. They think they own the US > government, but they don't. How odd when you consider that 56% of Americans voted for Democratic congressional candidates in 2004.
> Very elitist bunch, those Dems. Yeah. Unlike the christian warriors who want to turn the US into a theocracy.
Terraholm - 25 Dec 2005 00:13 GMT "Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid." Dwight D. Eisenhower
 Signature Laurel T " The party of Lincoln and Liberty was transmogrified into the party of hairy-backed swamp developers and corporate shills, faith-based economists, fundamentalist bullies with Bibles, Christians of convenience, freelance racists, misanthropic frat boys, shrieking midgets of AM radio, tax cheats, nihilists in golf pants, brownshirts in pinstripes, sweatshop tycoons, hacks, fakirs, aggressive dorks, Lamborghini libertarians, and their Etch-A-Sketch president. Republicans: The No.1 reason the rest of the world thinks we're deaf, dumb and dangerous." Garrison Keillor
the Bede - 25 Dec 2005 02:48 GMT > "Should any political party attempt to abolish social > security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > and they are stupid." > Dwight D. Eisenhower hahahaha, I hope that's legit
Unclaimed Mysteries - 25 Dec 2005 04:34 GMT >> "Should any political party attempt to abolish social >> security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > hahahaha, I hope that's legit Snopes says yes, with a reference to H.L. Hunt in the original: http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/ike.asp
This is the kind of thinking I wish my libertarianistical brahs would understand. You can't just reset the economy to zero and let the free market *instantly* make everything better. You have to:
1) Choose wisely the programs you want to remove from government responsibility. There is more than one kind of welfare (cough NASA cough).
2) Make sure you are offering something that works *better* than the existing government program. What's the point of disrupting millions of people's lives just because Ayn Rand said it was cool?
3) Don't make the mistake of equating free markets with privatization. Privatization usually turns out to be a crock, with politically connected companies calling the shots regardless of their ethics, morals, or even competence.
 Signature It Came From C. L. Smith's Unclaimed Mysteries. http://www.unclaimedmysteries.net
Terraholm - 25 Dec 2005 05:19 GMT >>> "Should any political party attempt to abolish social >>> security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Snopes says yes, with a reference to H.L. Hunt in the original: > http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/ike.asp Document #1147; November 8, 1954 To Edgar Newton Eisenhower http://www.eisenhowermemorial.org/presidential-papers/first-term/documents/1147.cfm
Now it is true that I believe this country is following a dangerous trend when it permits too great a degree of centralization of governmental functions. I oppose this--in some instances the fight is a rather desperate one. But to attain any success it is quite clear that the Federal government cannot avoid or escape responsibilities which the mass of the people firmly believe should be undertaken by it. The political processes of our country are such that if a rule of reason is not applied in this effort, we will lose everything--even to a possible and drastic change in the Constitution. This is what I mean by my constant insistence upon "moderation" in government. Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes you can do these things. Among them are H. L. Hunt (you possibly know his background), a few other Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or business man from other areas.5 Their number is negligible and they are stupid.
Terraholm - 25 Dec 2005 05:25 GMT the Bede wrote:
>>> "Should any political party attempt to abolish social >>> security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> >> hahahaha, I hope that's legit http://www.eisenhowermemorial.org/presidential-papers/first-term/documents/1147.cfm
The Eisenhower republicans should take back their party...
How about this one? A progressive on taking back the Republican Party Except: My concern and regret are primarily for these men themselves. They could do us good by joining with us, for it is earnestly to be wished that this movement for social justice shall number among its leaders at least a goodly proportion of men whose leadership is obviously disinterested, who will themselves receive no material benefit from the changes which as a matter of justice they advocate: Yet the good to the people would be small compared to the good which these men would do to their own class by casting in their lot with us as we battle for the rights of humanity, as we battle for social and industrial justice, as we champion the cause of those who most need champions and for whom champions have been too few. I have been puzzled at the attitude of the men in question. They are often the men who in the past have been very severe in their condemnation of corruption, in their condemnation of bossism, and in railing at injustice and demanding higher ideals of public service and private life. Yet when the supreme test comes they prove false to all their professions of the past. They fear the people so intensely that they pardon and uphold every species of political and business crookedness in the panic-struck hope of strengthening the boss and special privilege and thereby raising a powerful shield to protect their own soft personalities from the public.
They are foolish creatures; the people would never harm them; yet they still dread the people. They stand with servile acquiescence behind the worst representatives of crooked business and crooked politics in the country, and by speech or by silence they now encourage or condone the efforts of our opponents to steal from the people the victory they have won and to substitute boss rule for popular rule. Some of these men have in the past assumed to be teachers of their fellow men in political matters. Never again can they speak in favor of a high ideal of honesty and decency in political life, or of the duty to oppose political corruption and business wrong-doing; for to do so would expose them to the derision of all who abhor hypocrisy and who condemn fine words that are not translated into honorable deeds.
Apparently these men are influenced by a class consciousness which I had not supposed existed in any such strength. They live softly. Circumstances for which they are not responsible have removed their lives from the fears and anxieties of the ordinary men who toil. When a movement is undertaken to make life a little easier, a little better, for the ordinary man, to give him a better chance, these men of soft life seem cast into panic lest something that is not rightly theirs may be taken from them. In unmanly fear they stand against all change, no matter how urgent such change may be. They not only come far short of their duty when they thus act, but they show a lamentable short-sightedness.
Theodore Roosevelt. THE CASE AGAINST THE REACTIONARIES June 17, 1912 http://www.theodore-roosevelt.com/trreactionaries.html
Dennis - 27 Dec 2005 18:42 GMT Bob <bob@nospam.com> You're digging it round, when it aughta Be SQUARE
>The Liberal Democratic meltdown continues... funny that y'all trying to say that the dems are done when y'all have been in complete control of the federal Government and have to try and blame the Dems for your f.ck-ups.
put that in your pipe and smoke it for a while... maybe your brain will engage shortly after that. -- "People who read the tabloids deserve to be lied to" - Jerry Seinfeld "Education is the progressive discovery of our own Ignorance" - Will Durant "We are drowning in information, while starving for wisdom." - E.O. Wilson "the glass is not only half full the first half was delicious" --Me To Reply: Scrape off the end bits...
Justin Pate - 28 Dec 2005 17:18 GMT > Bob <bob@nospam.com> You're digging it round, when it aughta Be SQUARE > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > been in complete control of the federal Government and have to try and > blame the Dems for your f.ck-ups. What f.ck ups?
Dewey - 28 Dec 2005 18:16 GMT > > Bob <bob@nospam.com> You're digging it round, when it aughta Be SQUARE > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > > What f.ck ups? Iraqi insurgency instead of greeted as liberators?
An economy that's going nowhere?
The first White House staff member to be indicted in 139 years?
Largest budget deficit in history?
How many trillions of dollars has Halliburton stolen in Iraq?
Got bin Laden?
Got WMD?
Wasn't Bush supposed to veto Medicare part D if it cost more than $400B?
Making the Middle East safe for rabid anti-American theocracies?
Blow job in the oval office? Oh wait. That's was Clinton's f.ck up.
Justin Pate - 31 Dec 2005 08:19 GMT > > > Bob <bob@nospam.com> You're digging it round, when it aughta Be SQUARE > > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > > Iraqi insurgency instead of greeted as liberators? ok
> An economy that's going nowhere? The economy is strong.
> The first White House staff member to be indicted in 139 years? ok
> Largest budget deficit in history? ok
> How many trillions of dollars has Halliburton stolen in Iraq? Halliburton is stealing money in Iraq? Isn't that what the terrorists believe?
> Got bin Laden? ok
> Got WMD? Wait a minute; only a Leftist could spin there being no WMDs as a negative thing.
> Making the Middle East safe for rabid anti-American theocracies? Saddam wasn't anti-American enough for you?
Dewey - 03 Jan 2006 16:07 GMT > > > > Bob <bob@nospam.com> You're digging it round, when it aughta Be SQUARE > > > > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > The economy is strong. Sorry but 3.7% growth is not "strong". Especially when almost all of that growth is in military spending. Also nearly 60% of Americans have seen their annual income shrink when adjusted for inflation. Just because the top 5 or 10% are getting richer faster than ever in history, don't think that means the economy is "strong".
> > The first White House staff member to be indicted in 139 years? > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Halliburton is stealing money in Iraq? Isn't that what the terrorists > believe? No, it is what the CPA admitted. Here is just one example: http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/01/30/iraq.audit/
> > Got bin Laden? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Wait a minute; only a Leftist could spin there being no WMDs as a > negative thing. Only a raging hypocrite could overlook the fact that it was the #1 basis for the war.
> > Making the Middle East safe for rabid anti-American theocracies? > > Saddam wasn't anti-American enough for you? Compare the number of Americans he killed since the first gulf war ended to the number of Americans killed by "insurgents."
Justin Pate - 03 Jan 2006 17:27 GMT > > > > > Bob <bob@nospam.com> You're digging it round, when it aughta Be > SQUARE [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > 10% are getting richer faster than ever in history, don't think that means > the economy is "strong". Income has gone up for everybody. Granted a dollar doesn't go as far as it used to, but at least people are working.
> > > The first White House staff member to be indicted in 139 years? > > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Only a raging hypocrite could overlook the fact that it was the #1 basis for > the war. Only a mindless drone needs to be told why to support a war from their political leaders.
Some of us support the war for our own reasons and don't need to be told why.
> > > Making the Middle East safe for rabid anti-American theocracies? > > > > Saddam wasn't anti-American enough for you? > > > Compare the number of Americans he killed since the first gulf war ended to > the number of Americans killed by "insurgents." Boy, that's dumb. Of course the terrorists are attacking; that's what happens when you are agressive against terrorists. They strike back because their on the ropes and they're scared.
Dewey - 03 Jan 2006 18:01 GMT > Income has gone up for everybody. Utterly false. Income adjusted for inflation is *DOWN* for a majority of Americans. Absolute income (forget inflation) is down for at least 20% of Americans.
> Granted a dollar doesn't go as far > as it used to, but at least people are working. This is exactly the type of slave labor mentality the elite want you to have. Be thankful you have a job, or two or even three, even if you still cannot make enough money to make ends meet, because you could be one of the 13.5 million people who have no job at all (total unemployment in US was 9% in May, 2005. Civilian workforce numbered 149,122,000 that month. Do the math).
> Only a mindless drone needs to be told why to support a war from their > political leaders. > > Some of us support the war for our own reasons and don't need to be > told why. So, you can give some original reasons for supporting a war in which thousands of Americans have died, tens of thousads have been maimed and mutilated, perhaps 100,000 Iraqis are dead, and anti-American terrorism is increasing world-wide? I'd love to hear them.
> > > > Making the Middle East safe for rabid anti-American theocracies? > > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > happens when you are agressive against terrorists. They strike back > because their on the ropes and they're scared. Yah. And the insurgency is in its last throes. Thanks for admitting that Bush has made the Middle East safe for rabid anti-American terrorists.
TLG - 04 Jan 2006 06:08 GMT
> > > > An economy that's going nowhere? > > > > > > The economy is strong. > > > > > Sorry but 3.7% growth is not "strong". Actually, 3.7% growth is astonishing, especially in light of Katrina and Rita. Most leading economists would have been happy with 2%, and had projected as much.
Let me guess, Chicken Little. You're not an economics major...just some guy who embraces everything spouted by the liberal propaganda machine.
Ah.
* * *
Democrat Hypocrisy on Parade:
"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons." - Sen. Jay Rockefeller, D-W.Va.
"The war against terrorism will not be finished as long as (Saddam Hussein) is in power." - Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich.
"Saddam Hussein, in effect, has thumbed his nose at the world community. And I think that the president's approaching this in the right fashion." - Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev.
"[It] is Hussein's vigorous pursuit of biological, chemical and nuclear weapons, and his present and potential future support for terrorist acts and organizations, that make him a terrible danger to the people to the United States." - Senator Charles Schumer D-N.Y.
"We know that [Saddam] has stored away secret supplies of biological weapons and chemical weapons throughout his country." - President Bill Clinton, September 23, 2002
"Iraq is a long way from [America], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risk that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face. And it is a threat against which we must and will stand firm. In discussing Iraq, we begin by knowing that Saddam Hussein, unlike any other leader, has used weapons of mass destruction even against his own people." - Secretary of State Madelyn Albright, February 18, 1998
Dewey - 04 Jan 2006 14:22 GMT > > > > > An economy that's going nowhere? > > > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Let me guess, Chicken Little. You're not an economics major...just some > guy who embraces everything spouted by the liberal propaganda machine. Oddly enough, the mississippi river flood in 1993 was followed by quarters of 5.5, 4.1 and 5.3% GDP growth. A single quarter of 2.3% was again followed by 4.8%.
TLG - 05 Jan 2006 07:24 GMT > > > > > > An economy that's going nowhere? > > > > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > quarters of 5.5, 4.1 and 5.3% GDP growth. A single quarter of 2.3% was > again followed by 4.8%. Ah, Google. Or did you use Yahoo?
The Mississippi River flood of 1993 didn't follow on the heels of 9/11, and came while the country was still cruising on Reagan's economic policies.
3.7% -- in the environment in which it occurred -- is, as I said, astonishing.
* * *
Democrat Hypocrisy on Parade:
"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons." - Sen. Jay Rockefeller, D-W.Va.
"The war against terrorism will not be finished as long as (Saddam Hussein) is in power." - Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich.
"Saddam Hussein, in effect, has thumbed his nose at the world community. And I think that the president's approaching this in the right fashion." - Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev.
"[It] is Hussein's vigorous pursuit of biological, chemical and nuclear weapons, and his present and potential future support for terrorist acts and organizations, that make him a terrible danger to the people to the United States." - Senator Charles Schumer D-N.Y.
"We know that [Saddam] has stored away secret supplies of biological weapons and chemical weapons throughout his country." - President Bill Clinton, September 23, 2002
"Iraq is a long way from [America], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risk that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face. And it is a threat against which we must and will stand firm. In discussing Iraq, we begin by knowing that Saddam Hussein, unlike any other leader, has used weapons of mass destruction even against his own people." - Secretary of State Madelyn Albright, February 18, 1998
Dewey - 05 Jan 2006 15:36 GMT >> > > > > > An economy that's going nowhere? >> > > > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Ah, Google. Or did you use Yahoo? BEA.
> The Mississippi River flood of 1993 didn't follow on the heels of > 9/11, and came while the country was still cruising on Reagan's > economic policies. Katrina did not come "on the heels of 9/11" either. I came 4 years later. The 1993 Mississippi floods came 6 months after the first WTC attack. By your own standards, the 1993 floods should have damaged the economy more.
And as for "cruising on Reagan's economic policies", that flood came "on the heels of" a long economic downturn. Katrina came during an allegedly "strong" recovery.
You have revealed yourself to be an ignorant, partisan stooge.
> 3.7% -- in the environment in which it occurred -- is, as I said, > astonishing. Astonishingly bad for a supposedly strong recovery. But hey, crappy economies are good when a repub is in office and strong economies are "bubbles" when a democrat is in office, right?
"if he were to meet all the conditions of the United Nations, the conditions that I've described very clearly in terms that everybody can understand, that in itself will signal the regime has changed." - George W. Bush, 21 October, 2002
"He has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors. So in effect, our policies have strengthened the security of the neighbors of Iraq..." - Colin Powell, 24 February 2001
"Saddam does not control the northern part of the country. We are able to keep his arms from him. His military forces have not been rebuilt." - Condoleeza Rice, April 2001
"We know where they [WMD] are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat." - Donald Rumsfeld, March 30, 2003
Dewey - 04 Jan 2006 14:38 GMT > > > > > An economy that's going nowhere? > > > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Let me guess, Chicken Little. Funny how it always comes down to name-calling.
walstib77 - 04 Jan 2006 16:41 GMT > > > > > An economy that's going nowhere? > > > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Ah. Hey! I have a question: does all the reconstruction effort count toward growth?
Just owndering. Since you know so much about economics and all.
> * * * > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons." > - Sen. Jay Rockefeller, D-W.Va. Given the fact that Cheney was providing knowingly false evidence as fact.
> "The war against terrorism will not be finished > as long as (Saddam Hussein) is in power." > - Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich. Who?
> "Saddam Hussein, in effect, has thumbed his nose > at the world community. And I think that the > president's approaching this in the right fashion." > - Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev. That would be using the vote to use force as leverage to get the inspectors in there.
But then the Prez screwed up, yanked the inspectors prematurely, and started a needless war in Iraq at the expense of victory over the Taliban and Osama in Afghanistan/Pakistan.
> "[It] is Hussein's vigorous pursuit of biological, > chemical and nuclear weapons, and his present and > potential future support for terrorist acts and > organizations, that make him a terrible danger to > the people to the United States." > - Senator Charles Schumer D-N.Y. Who?
> "We know that [Saddam] has stored away secret > supplies of biological weapons and chemical weapons > throughout his country." > - President Bill Clinton, September 23, 2002 Has stored--is that past tense?
> "Iraq is a long way from [America], but what happens > there matters a great deal here. For the risk that [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > own people." > - Secretary of State Madelyn Albright, February 18, 1998 So she said we have to begin by knowing Saddam's past. But that is only the beginning...
What you ignore is that the President intentionally misled America and Congress, and the Veep and Sec. of Defense were twisting the arms of the intel community to get what they needed to go where they wanted.
They had designs on the nationalized oilfields of Iraq long before 9-11, then useds that tragedy as leverage to get there. At the expense of the true national security threat in Afghanistan and Pakistan! Osama still lurks about, and Bush even said he didn;t think too much about him anymore. Bush then lied about having said it in the debates.
And you want hypocrisy on Iraq?
"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is."
-Governor George W. Bush (R-TX)
"This is President Clinton's war, and when he falls flat on his face, that's his problem."
-Senator Richard Lugar (R-IN)
"You can support the troops but not the president"
-Representative Tom Delay (R-TX)
"My job as majority leader is be supportive of our troops, try to have input as decisions are made and to look at those decisions after they're made ... not to march in lock step with everything the president decides to do."
-Senator Trent Lott (R-MS)
For us to call this a victory and to commend the President of the United States as the Commander in Chief showing great leadership in Operation Allied Force is a farce" -Representative Tom Delay (R-TX)
Bombing a sovereign nation for ill-defined reasons with vague objectives undermines the American stature in the world. The international respect and trust for America has diminished every time we casually let the bombs fly."
-Representative Tom Delay (R-TX)
"America has no vital interest in whose flag flies over Kosovo's capital, and no right to attack and kill Serb soldiers fighting on their own soil to preserve the territorial integrity of their own country"
-Pat Buchanan (R)
"These international war criminals were led by Gen. Wesley Clark ...who clicked his shiny heels for the commander-in-grief, Bill Clinton."
-Michael Savage
"It is a remarkable spectacle to see the Clinton Administration and NATO taking over from the Soviet Union the role of sponsoring "wars of national liberation."
-Representative Helen Chenoweth (R-ID)
"If we are going to commit American troops, we must be certain they have a clear mission, an achievable goal and an exit strategy."
-Karen Hughes, speaking on behalf of presidential candidate George W. Bush
"I had doubts about the bombing campaign from the beginning...I didn't think we had done enough in the diplomatic area."
-Senator Trent Lott (R-MS)
"You think Vietnam was bad? Vietnam is nothing next to Kosovo."
-Tony Snow, Fox News 3/24/99
"Well, I just think it's a bad idea. What's going to happen is they're going to be over there for 10, 15, maybe 20 years"
-Joe Scarborough (R-FL)
"I'm on the Senate Intelligence Committee, so you can trust me and believe me when I say we're running out of cruise missles. I can't tell you exactly how many we have left, for security reasons, but we're almost out of cruise missles."
-Senator Inhofe (R-OK )
"I cannot support a failed foreign policy. History teaches us that it is often easier to make war than peace. This administration is just learning that lesson right now. The President began this mission with very vague objectives and lots of unanswered questions. A month later, these questions are still unanswered. There are no clarifiedrules of engagement. There is no timetable. There is no legitimate definition of victory. There is no contingency plan for mission creep. There is no clear funding program. There is no agenda to bolster our overextended military. There is no explanation defining what vital national interests are at stake. There was no strategic plan for war when the President started this thing, and there still is no plan today"
-Representative Tom Delay (R-TX)
"Explain to the mothers and fathers of American servicemen that may come home in body bags why their son or daughter have to give up their life?"
-Sean Hannity, Fox News, 4/6/99
"President Clinton is once again releasing American military might on a foreign country with an ill-defined objective and no exit strategy. He has yet to tell the Congress how much this operation will cost. And he has not informed our nation's armed forces about how long they will be away from home. These strikes do not make for a sound foreign policy."
-Senator Rick Santorum (R-PA)
"No goal, no objective, not until we have those things and a compelling case is made, then I say, back out of it, because innocent people are going to die for nothing. That's why I'm against it."
-Sean Hannity, Fox News, 4/5/99
Clinton was a rube, and a moral midget. He was a relativist, and he was wishy-washy.
And sadly, he was ten times the leader that W is.
They both suck; Bush just sucks far worse and more dangerously.
TLG - 05 Jan 2006 07:19 GMT > > > > > > An economy that's going nowhere? > > > > > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Given the fact that Cheney was providing knowingly false evidence as > fact. Proof of that, please? No? Didn't think so.
Sorry if your don't like the quotes, but they're true -- unlike your accusations.
And if you have to ask "who?" so much, you really need to look beyond the liberal propaganda machine and get some real idea of what's going on out there.
* * *
Democrat Hypocrisy on Parade:
"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons." - Sen. Jay Rockefeller, D-W.Va.
"The war against terrorism will not be finished as long as (Saddam Hussein) is in power." - Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich.
"Saddam Hussein, in effect, has thumbed his nose at the world community. And I think that the president's approaching this in the right fashion." - Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev.
"[It] is Hussein's vigorous pursuit of biological, chemical and nuclear weapons, and his present and potential future support for terrorist acts and organizations, that make him a terrible danger to the people to the United States." - Senator Charles Schumer D-N.Y.
"We know that [Saddam] has stored away secret supplies of biological weapons and chemical weapons throughout his country." - President Bill Clinton, September 23, 2002
"Iraq is a long way from [America], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risk that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face. And it is a threat against which we must and will stand firm. In discussing Iraq, we begin by knowing that Saddam Hussein, unlike any other leader, has used weapons of mass destruction even against his own people." - Secretary of State Madelyn Albright, February 18, 1998
Dewey - 05 Jan 2006 15:32 GMT > Sorry if your don't like the quotes, but they're true -- unlike your > accusations. "He has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors. So in effect, our policies have strengthened the security of the neighbors of Iraq..." - Colin Powell, 24 February 2001
"Saddam does not control the northern part of the country. We are able to keep his arms from him. His military forces have not been rebuilt." - Condoleeza Rice, April 2001
"We know where they [WMD] are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat." - Donald Rumsfeld, March 30, 2003
walstib77@gmail.com - 05 Jan 2006 17:26 GMT > > > > > > > An economy that's going nowhere? > > > > > > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Proof of that, please? No? Didn't think so. [quote] The Vice President is a man with something to hide. The simple truth is: Cheney did lie, repeatedly, to bludgeon the U.S. Congress into approving an unnecessary and disastrous invasion and occupation of Iraq. According to several eyewitness accounts, Cheney personally lied to scores of members of the U.S. Senate, claiming that the White House had rock-solid proof that Saddam Hussein was close to building a nuclear bomb, and that war was the only option. No such evidence existed-and Cheney knew it.
Cheney's favorite Iraqi liar, Dr. Ahmed Chalabi of the Iraqi National Congress (INC), now a deputy prime minister, all but gloated over his and Cheney's war-by-deception scam in an infamous Feb. 19, 2004 interview with the Daily Telegraph. Confronted on the piles of INC-fabricated intelligence that helped lead the United States to war in Iraq, Chalabi shrugged his shoulders, and said, "We are heroes in error. As far as we're concerned, we've been entirely successful. That tyrant Saddam is gone and the Americans are in Baghdad. What was said before is not important."
...No doubt, there were some significant intelligence failures-notably, failures of nerve by senior intelligence community bureaucrats, to resist White House pressure to "spin" the intelligence to justify invasion. But the overriding factor in the rush to war was a campaign of lies by Cheney, and by what Col. Lawrence Wilkerson (USA-ret.), former Secretary of State Colin Powell's former chief of staff, dubbed the "Cheney-Rumsfeld Cabal."
In a Los Angeles Times op-ed on Oct. 25, 2005, Colonel Wilkerson declared: "In President Bush's first term, some of the most important decisions about U.S. national security-including vital decisions about postwar Iraq-were made by a secretive, little-known cabal. It was made up of a very small group of people led by Vice President Dick Cheney and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.... Its insular and secret workings were efficient and swift-not unlike the decision-making one would associate more with a dictatorship than a democracy.... But the secret process was ultimately a failure. It produced a series of disastrous decisions and virtually ensured that the agencies charged with implementing them would not or could not execute them well.... It's a disaster. Given the choice, I'd choose a frustrating bureaucracy over an efficient cabal every time."
...One of Dick Cheney's favorite arguments for invading Iraq and overthrowing Saddam was that Iraq was behind the 9/11 attacks on New York and Washington. And according to news accounts, the Sept. 21, 2001 PDB made clear that there was no evidence of any Saddam/al-Qaeda ties. In fact, the intelligence estimate presented to President Bush, Cheney, and other top national security officials on Sept. 21, was that Saddam was an arch enemy of al-Qaeda, and had spied on it.
Despite this, and the more in-depth CIA study on why the Saddam/al-Qaeda ties were bogus, Cheney and company kept on lying that Saddam was behind 9/11.
The Sept. 21, 2001 PDB came in response to demands from the White House for all available evidence of a Saddam link to the authors of the 9/11 attack. Five days before the PDB was delivered, President Bush had convened a War Cabinet meeting at Camp David, where the planned attack on Afghanistan was finalized. At that meeting, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, speaking for the Cheney-Rumsfeld Cabal, had called for an invasion of Iraq, claiming that Saddam was at the center of global terror and should be America's first target. The next day, President Bush signed a secret order, authorizing the military campaign against Afghanistan, but also ordering the Pentagon and CIA to begin plans for future action against Iraq.
On Sept. 19, the Defense Policy Board (DPB), a Pentagon advisory panel then chaired by neo-con Richard Perle, and populated by a collection of like-minded war hawks, convened a closed-door session. Both Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz attended the meeting, which was addressed by INC head Ahmed Chalabi and Dr. Bernard Lewis, the octogenarian British intelligence Arab Bureau spook, who was a longtime booster of Chalabi. The topic was the need to overthrow Saddam Hussein in retaliation for 9/11. As the direct result of the session, one DPB member, former CIA Director R. James Woolsey, was dispatched on a mission to London, to round up evidence that Saddam was behind the recent terror attacks, as well as the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center. London was the headquarters of the INC.
ATTA IN PRAGUE
Shortly after Woolsey's first Defense Policy Board sojourn to London, the first news stories appeared, alleging that 9/11 plotter Mohammed Atta had been in the Czech capital, Prague, on April 8, 2001, meeting with Ahmed Khalil Ibrahim Samir al-Ani, the Second Secretary of the Iraqi Embassy and an officer in the Iraqi foreign intelligence service. The "Atta in Prague" urban legend would serve as Cheney's favorite "smoking gun" on the issue of Saddam's hand in 9/11.
The ostensible source of the information was an "Arab student," working undercover for Czech intelligence, who had spotted the two men in a restaurant. The "student" would later relocate to London, raising some speculation that he may have been part of the INC disinformation machine from the outset. Later versions of the story claimed that Czech intelligence had photographed the meeting, because al-Ani was under surveillance as the result of an earlier alleged terror plot against American targets in the Czech capital. One well-placed U.S. military intelligence source recently told EIR that Czech intelligence had indeed surveilled the meeting, but had later determined that the man with al-Ani was not Atta.
Despite conflicting evidence, showing that Atta was in the United States on the date of the alleged Prague meeting, Vice President Cheney was among the first Bush Administration officials to jump the gun and proclaim the Atta-Baghdad ties. On Dec. 9, 2001, in an appearance on "Meet the Press," Cheney declared, "It's been pretty well confirmed that [Atta] did go to Prague and he did meet with a senior official of the Iraqi intelligence service in Czechoslovakia last April, several months before the attack."
On April 30, 2002, FBI Director Robert Mueller gave a speech in San Francisco, in which he publicly refuted the Atta-in-Prague story, citing the FBI's detailed evidence that Atta was in Virginia Beach, Va. on that date. "We ran down literally hundreds of thousands of leads and checked every record we could get our hands on," he explained.
The FBI trashing of the Atta links to Iraq did nothing to deter Cheney. On another "Meet the Press" appearance on Sept. 8, 2003, the Vice President reiterated, "There has been reporting that suggests that there have been a number of contacts over the years. We've seen, in connection with the hijackers, of course, Mohammed Atta, who was the lead hijacker, did apparently travel to Prague on a number of occasions. And on at least one occasion, we have reporting that places him in Prague with a senior Iraqi intelligence official a few months before the attack on the World Trade Center." Cheney went so far as to describe Iraq as "the geographic base of the terrorists who have had us under assault for many years, but most especially on 9/11." [/quote]
Want more? I have it.
Now here's the part where you shoot the messenger...
TLG - 07 Jan 2006 05:14 GMT > > > > > > > > An economy that's going nowhere? > > > > > > > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > nuclear bomb, and that war was the only option. No such evidence > existed-and Cheney knew it. Yeah, those Lyndon Larouche screeds carry a lot of weight.
How's that drug cartel coming along -- the one he said the Queen of England was running?
> Now here's the part where you shoot the messenger... Nope. Sorry.
* * *
Democrat Hypocrisy on Parade:
"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons." - Sen. Jay Rockefeller, D-W.Va.
"The war against terrorism will not be finished as long as (Saddam Hussein) is in power." - Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich.
"Saddam Hussein, in effect, has thumbed his nose at the world community. And I think that the president's approaching this in the right fashion." - Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev.
"[It] is Hussein's vigorous pursuit of biological, chemical and nuclear weapons, and his present and potential future support for terrorist acts and organizations, that make him a terrible danger to the people to the United States." - Senator Charles Schumer D-N.Y.
"We know that [Saddam] has stored away secret supplies of biological weapons and chemical weapons throughout his country." - President Bill Clinton, September 23, 2002
"Iraq is a long way from [America], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risk that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face. And it is a threat against which we must and will stand firm. In discussing Iraq, we begin by knowing that Saddam Hussein, unlike any other leader, has used weapons of mass destruction even against his own people." - Secretary of State Madelyn Albright, February 18, 1998
walstib77@gmail.com - 10 Jan 2006 03:48 GMT > > > > > > > > > An economy that's going nowhere? > > > > > > > > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > Nope. Sorry. That's exactly what you've done.
What part do you disagree with?
Dewey - 28 Dec 2005 16:15 GMT > The Liberal Democratic meltdown continues... > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > will be ... to take no position at all. Has there ever been a more > cowardly decision made by an American political party? I am unclear on why every single democrat has to agree on a single position. Just because republicans cannot think for themselves and march in mindless lockstep, why should everyone else?
natch - 04 Jan 2006 18:05 GMT righties like you would love a one-party system
Dewey - 04 Jan 2006 18:56 GMT > righties like you would love a one-party system Like the Soviet Union? China? Hussein's Iraq?
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