 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeDiscussion Groups Platforms PCXboxPlayStationNintendoGames ActionStrategyRole Playing GamesSimulatorsSport Games |
Game Forum / Role Playing Games / EverQuest / December 2003Discord top classes
OK, this dates back to yesterday. But doing a who all 20/50, there were 5 people, a level 21 mage, 3 level 20 mages, and a level 20 wizard. All gnomes. Not all in the same zone, which I expected, thinking that it was a group playing together. Steamfont, Nektulous, Gfay each had at least one of these during the several times I checked. Top level, of course, no idea who is on top in the PK field, for all I know its some level 6 person who stopped exping and does nothing but snipe other players who hit 6 all day long. One ranger in the 6-50 range, a level 6 human in qeynos hills. I didn't do a more through check to see what top levels were of the other classes, although I'm curious. I -was- surprised to see a) ranger showing so poorly, and b) a Wizard in that company; I'd have thought wizards without snare and without a group (seems to be very little grouping going on) would really suck, bottom of the barrel. c) no necromancers; 4 mages, zero necromancers, I'd have thought at least 50/50. d) All gnomes. No halflings (exp bonus), no trolls (regen should be a big advantage at low levels), no elves of any kind (by sheer volume, if the success of the classes were evenly spread out, you'd have to have 33% elves...Wood, High, Dark, Half? Thats a lot of elf races! Splendid <emporer@dejazzd.com> wrote: > OK, this dates back to yesterday. But doing a who all 20/50, there were > 5 people, a level 21 mage, 3 level 20 mages, and a level 20 wizard. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > out, you'd have to have 33% elves...Wood, High, Dark, Half? Thats a lot > of elf races! You're seeing rangers "pre-Kunark". There are no Kunark-era and beyond weapons available (nor probably even the good stuff from the old world even). That makes rangers rather pathetic warriors with snare, which they can't even fully take advantage of in that environment either due to no easy access to bows/arrows. Hell, they don't even have snare until level 9, and getting to level 9 as half-a-warrior might prove difficult there. You're also seeing a wizard that remembers how wizards used to work. A skilled PvP wizard is who I'd expect to be at the top of the kill list. "Whew, that ranger just about killed me, lucky I had twice his hitpoints." *boom* "Bastard wizard." Necromancers really don't have very good "quick kill" ability, so at lower levels they aren't all that great at PvP (especially getting reset after every loss). Magician has the same benefit of a pet, plus better "quick kill" ability to finish fights. That may be the only environment imagineable that is both PvP and magician-friendly. :) No clue on the gnomes. I'd say mostly just coincidence, though there might be some advantages to being able to hide behind a tree stump. "No clue on the gnomes. I'd say mostly just coincidence, though there might be some advantages to being able to hide behind a tree stump." Perhaps it has to do with getting hide as a racial ability, and no other race/class getting see invis spells so early on in the game? Vorpalrunt > "No clue on the gnomes. I'd say mostly just coincidence, though there > might be some advantages to being able to hide behind a tree stump." > > Perhaps it has to do with getting hide as a racial ability, and no > other race/class getting see invis spells so early on in the game? Wizards get see invis at level 4, Enchanters at 8, Shaman at 9, druids at 14, and mages at 16. Halflings get racial hide as well.  SignatureOn Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr> Elder Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Prophet of 65 seasons Tainniel Fleabane, Halfling Warrior of 31 seasons Giluven, Wood Elf Druid of 26 seasons Graeniel, High Elf Enchanter of 25 seasons > > "No clue on the gnomes. I'd say mostly just coincidence, though there > > might be some advantages to being able to hide behind a tree stump." [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Wizards get see invis at level 4, Enchanters at 8, Shaman at 9, druids at > 14, and mages at 16. Halflings get racial hide as well. Do gnomes even get hide? I thought the 'hide' caster race were the smurfs... er Dark Elves. >> > "No clue on the gnomes. I'd say mostly just coincidence, though >> > there might be some advantages to being able to hide behind a tree [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Do gnomes even get hide? I thought the 'hide' caster race were the > smurfs... er Dark Elves. No clue to be honest, I'm not the one who said they do. SignatureOn Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr> Elder Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Prophet of 65 seasons Tainniel Fleabane, Halfling Warrior of 31 seasons Giluven, Wood Elf Druid of 26 seasons Graeniel, High Elf Enchanter of 25 seasons >"No clue on the gnomes. I'd say mostly just coincidence, though there might >be some advantages to being able to hide behind a tree stump." > >Perhaps it has to do with getting hide as a racial ability, and no other >race/class getting see invis spells so early on in the game? Gnomes don't have hide (or sneak) as a racial ability. However, one thing they do is instill fear in the other races of Norrath. Beware the Gnomes!! >>"No clue on the gnomes. I'd say mostly just coincidence, though there >>might be some advantages to being able to hide behind a tree stump." [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Beware the Gnomes!! Um, yeah, that laughter that you are hearing is fear, yeah, right. SignatureOn Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr> Elder Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Prophet of 65 seasons Tainniel Fleabane, Halfling Warrior of 31 seasons Giluven, Wood Elf Druid of 26 seasons Graeniel, High Elf Enchanter of 25 seasons > You're seeing rangers "pre-Kunark". There are no Kunark-era and beyond > weapons available (nor probably even the good stuff from the old world > even). That makes rangers rather pathetic warriors with snare, which they > can't even fully take advantage of in that environment either due to no easy > access to bows/arrows. Hell, they don't even have snare until level 9, and > getting to level 9 as half-a-warrior might prove difficult there. From what I remember, the issues that rangers had in the Kunark era didn't manifest themselves until the higher levels, when the skill points/gear/hit point bonus difference really created a significant disparity between rangers and warriors. I certainly don't remember there being any significant difference between the two classes before level 10. As for why they're not doing particularly well compared to other classes, well, track really isn't that big an advantage in straight levelling, and if any ranger's trying to PvP extensively (a play style that doesn't net experience), they'll probably find themselves on the losing end eventually. There's nothing really that makes them superior levellers or meleers to any other melee class at those levels. Archery with the bows available would be absurdly frustrating, not to mention rare, unless you were willing to blow what little money you had on the stacks of arrows that it would take to bring down an average level 6. C <cbillingsw@yahoo.com> wrote: > > You're seeing rangers "pre-Kunark". There are no Kunark-era and beyond > > weapons available (nor probably even the good stuff from the old world [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > rangers and warriors. I certainly don't remember there being any > significant difference between the two classes before level 10. Other than that whole "warriors get twice the hp of rangers" thing, no, no significant difference between the two before level 9. :) It isn't a matter of any "ranger issues" beyond not having spells before level 9 and no easily available twink gear. > <cbillingsw@yahoo.com> wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > It isn't a matter of any "ranger issues" beyond not having spells before > level 9 and no easily available twink gear. That's inaccurate. Warriors do not have twice the raw hit points of rangers at that level. The difference per level is around 5, if that. Make two new characters on a server you don't play on, and see the results. Your contention is simply not true. And if it wasn't an issue of "pre-Kunark era ranger issues", why did you bring that up in the first place? C > > <cbillingsw@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Make two new characters on a server you don't play on, and see the results. > Your contention is simply not true. In fact, I went ahead and did it myself. I even gave your contention an advantage by putting all points into stamina for the warrior, whereas there's a school of thought that suggests that a ranger may want to put poin ts into other attributes, so I put some into STR, DEX and WIS in addition to STA for the ranger, even more penalized compared to the warrior since the ranger didn't have as many points to distribute at the beginning. Here are my results: Half Elf Warrior - 105 Stamina - 34 hit points Half Elf Ranger - 89 Stamina - 30 hit points Now I also took the liberty of creating an Ogre warrior with the maximum number of stamina points allowed at character creation, just for a comparison. Keep in mind that the difference between the ogre warrior and the half elf ranger is not a perfectly good comparison, because race contributes a great deal to the difference, not class, which means it's a race balance rather than class balance issue. This was the result: Ogre Warrior - 150 Stamina - 38 hit points. Not entirely an insignificant difference in this respect, but hardly the difference you've been claiming. Perhaps I'll make an Ogre Shadowknight and see what the difference is there, since you've also made that claim. C <cbillingsw@yahoo.com> wrote: > > <cbillingsw@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > That's inaccurate. Warriors do not have twice the raw hit points of rangers > at that level. The difference per level is around 5, if that. There may be something in that. People aren't doing "long term" starting stats, they're going for hp, hp, hp and hp. So every ranger is at max stamina and base wisdom. Even with that, the advantage still falls to the warrior before level 9, and grows with every level. > Make two new characters on a server you don't play on, and see the results. > Your contention is simply not true. Any advantage toward the warrior is an un-answered advantage (except infrequently for SKs and paladins). > And if it wasn't an issue of "pre-Kunark era ranger issues", why did you > bring that up in the first place? I didn't actually. I brought up "pre-Kunark" (i.e., what Discord *is*) and you misunderstood. :P > <cbillingsw@yahoo.com> wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > stamina and base wisdom. Even with that, the advantage still falls to the > warrior before level 9, and grows with every level. Not sure what the point of this paragraph is. It's 3-4 hit points per level, nothing close to what you were contending. At level 6 that's maybe the ability to take two or three more hits than a ranger before getting killed. Of course, if you're getting ganked by a level 25 PK, it's even less than that. > > Make two new characters on a server you don't play on, and see the results. > > Your contention is simply not true. > > Any advantage toward the warrior is an un-answered advantage (except > infrequently for SKs and paladins). I'd say tracksort is a definite advantage. A ranger can conceivably use that to avoid getting run down in the first place. Again, not a huge advantage, but then, neither is 3-4 hit points per level. I certainly noticed how you backed off the "warriors have twice the hps of rangers" claim. Now apparently that's been whittled down to "they have a negligible advantage which is still an advantage". > > And if it wasn't an issue of "pre-Kunark era ranger issues", why did you > > bring that up in the first place? > > I didn't actually. I brought up "pre-Kunark" (i.e., what Discord *is*) and > you misunderstood. :P Ok, so I'm misunderstanding. However, I don't think that's my failing. Please explain to me then how "You're seeing rangers "pre-Kunark"" is germane to this discussion. What exactly did you mean by that if not to denigrate the position of rangers vis-a-vis warriors? C <cbillingsw@yahoo.com> wrote: > > <cbillingsw@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > getting killed. Of course, if you're getting ganked by a level 25 PK, > it's even less than that. Of course that was 3-4 hitpoints at level *1*, naked. Granted, that may be where you spend the majority of your time on this server. That margin gets bigger with every level too, obviously. This also ignores the benefits that warriors have from level 1, such as 4% melee mitigation (I assume in effect on Discord) and no penalty to attack/movement for low health. > > > Make two new characters on a server you don't play on, and see the results. > > > Your contention is simply not true. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > use that to avoid getting run down in the first place. Again, not a > huge advantage, but then, neither is 3-4 hit points per level. Have you ever used track on a level 1 ranger at a skill of 1? If you see them on track, you can *see* them. :P > I certainly noticed how you backed off the "warriors have twice the > hps of rangers" claim. Now apparently that's been whittled down to > "they have a negligible advantage which is still an advantage". Yeah, you showed that it was only a 50% advantage at level 1 instead of a 100% advantage. The ranger is sure to win now! :P > > > And if it wasn't an issue of "pre-Kunark era ranger issues", why did you > > > bring that up in the first place? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > mean by that if not to denigrate the position of rangers vis-a-vis > warriors? Everybody is playing at "base" ability. There's no twinking, most of the best twink stuff doesn't even exist on that server. Hell, even the good old world stuff will probably never be achieved. Warriors at low levels with nobody having any equipment advantage would actually be fairly tough to kill, particularly by another melee class. The true over-achievers of Discord that actually acquire armor can expand on this advantage (right up til they get ganked by the level 25). It had nothing to do with ranger defense being capped at 200 and the need for jolt, which were the "pre-Kunark ranger issues". It's most definitely your failing that you thought any discussion of low levels would somehow reference stuff that never became an issue til the 40s. >>I'd say tracksort is a definite advantage. A ranger can conceivably >>use that to avoid getting run down in the first place. Again, not a >>huge advantage, but then, neither is 3-4 hit points per level. > > Have you ever used track on a level 1 ranger at a skill of 1? If you see > them on track, you can *see* them. :P But by the time you are level 6 you are pushing 30 which is a serviceable early warning system. > Everybody is playing at "base" ability. There's no twinking, most of the > best twink stuff doesn't even exist on that server. Hell, even the good old [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Discord that actually acquire armor can expand on this advantage (right up > til they get ganked by the level 25). I disagree. Warriors without good armour, buffs, and resistances are easy pickings the ranged casters. And since we both agree there isn't going to be much good equipment floating around... warriors are dead meat to the first wizard with enough mana to burn him down and that won't be difficult because there isn't any decent +hp armour, buffs, or resists) >>> I'd say tracksort is a definite advantage. A ranger can conceivably >>> use that to avoid getting run down in the first place. Again, not a [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > won't be difficult because there isn't any decent +hp armour, buffs, or > resists) Hmmm... that actually raises an interesting point... a good strategy for discord could be to two box (or team up with a friend)... level a class with some decent combat buffs, and hide him somewhere, and then buff a level 6-10 pvp character and laugh your way through. A druid would be a good buff class... great soloers and solid buffer (get him into the 30s... cast sow, regen, levitate, camoflouge, skin like whatever, damage shield on your level 9 pali and charge into a battle... he'll shred characters his level who won't immediately bolt when they see him, and if/when he gets sniped by by a high level... ... he was level 9... create a new one P/L it back to 9 somewhere secluded and away you go... Hmmm... that only works if the 'scoring' is per account... not per character... guess it probably isn't so great... then again a level 9 sowed and regenerating could conceivably run away from many 25ths... <user@example.net> wrote: > >>I'd say tracksort is a definite advantage. A ranger can conceivably > >>use that to avoid getting run down in the first place. Again, not a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > But by the time you are level 6 you are pushing 30 which is a > serviceable early warning system. Perhaps. I'd say unlikely. Track doesn't go up quick, it's not a skill that you can make go up invisibly by tying it to a movement hotkey, you level 4x faster (4x?), and all skills get reset on death. > > Everybody is playing at "base" ability. There's no twinking, most of the > > best twink stuff doesn't even exist on that server. Hell, even the good old [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > won't be difficult because there isn't any decent +hp armour, buffs, or > resists) Nor +mana armor though, which makes nuking an equal level warrior down less appealing (not entirely unappealing, I think wizards are top notch in PvP and would be in that environment as well). A wizard comes up to a warrior and a ranger side-by-side and both at half health, which one is he gonna nuke? It also does bring up the innate MR warriors have from level 1. > <user@example.net> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > A wizard comes up to a warrior and a ranger side-by-side and both at half > health, which one is he gonna nuke? Depends on the level... once rangers have spells its not so cut and dry... the warrior is going to be using archery for a maximum of like 3 damage. The ranger has invoke lightning pretty early, not to mention snare, burst of fire, etc... nowhere near the nuking power of a wizard... but at least he'd be able to trade blows until root wore off. You are right about the lack of +mana armour... but in my Rallos Experience a naked caster could take even an armoured melee well into to the 20s and 30s... at which point resists and gear meant the caster would start to burn out of mana before making the kill... unless he was properly geared himself (but on RZek ... being naked has distinct advantages...) > It also does bring up the innate MR warriors have from level 1. I don't think the innate MR (or any other MR) makes much difference until well into the midgame even endgame, at least pvE... not too sure about pvp. <user@example.net> wrote: > > <user@example.net> wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > burst of fire, etc... nowhere near the nuking power of a wizard... but > at least he'd be able to trade blows until root wore off. Oh I'd definitely bet on the ranger after level 9. Snare is just that powerful, especially against a class with no cost-free range attack. > You are right about the lack of +mana armour... but in my Rallos > Experience a naked caster could take even an armoured melee well into to > the 20s and 30s... at which point resists and gear meant the caster > would start to burn out of mana before making the kill... unless he was > properly geared himself (but on RZek ... being naked has distinct > advantages...) I tried Rallos Zek once. I didn't like PvP but a friend and I tried a little test. She was a wood elf warrior - level 20 + newbie armor - and I was a level 20 wizard + newbie armor. I drained my entire mana bar trying to burn her down. She didn't resist once. She had over 1 bub of health left when I was done! I needed a deeper mana pool to beat her or she needed to already have some damage. >>You are right about the lack of +mana armour... but in my Rallos >>Experience a naked caster could take even an armoured melee well into to [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > once. She had over 1 bub of health left when I was done! I needed a > deeper mana pool to beat her or she needed to already have some damage. Hmmm...now that I think about it... I vaguely recall they nerfed pvp casters so that they only do 75% damage-ish with their nukes. That would coincide with your observations...?? Depends when you did the test... and what you mean by newbie armor... I'm talking cloth/patchwork/rawhide. But more importantly...the ganking naked caster was never looking for a fair fight... they'd always get you right after a fight... or even during a fight. > Hmmm...now that I think about it... I vaguely recall they nerfed pvp > casters so that they only do 75% damage-ish with their nukes. That would > coincide with your observations...?? Depends when you did the test... > and what you mean by newbie armor... I'm talking cloth/patchwork/rawhide. Newbie armor from the newbie armor quests, like the art keepers initiate armor quests you get in Felwithe. > But more importantly...the ganking naked caster was never looking for a > fair fight... they'd always get you right after a fight... or even > during a fight. True... > OK, this dates back to yesterday. But doing a who all 20/50, there were > 5 people, a level 21 mage, 3 level 20 mages, and a level 20 wizard. Interesting. My level 2 Wizard, Frikkin, is a frog. I think the server is a blast, but I have one question that I was not able to answer based on looking at the ruleset: who can kill whom and where and when? Is it 100% anything goes, anytime, anywhere, or are there racial, diety or other team based kinds of restrictions. I'm sure this is mentioned very explicitly somewhere, but looking over the ruleset on the Discord page I didn't see it. The consequences don't favor much experimentation ... TIA Frikkin (Frak) Tadpole Wizard of 2 seasons Discord > OK, this dates back to yesterday. But doing a who all 20/50, there were > 5 people, a level 21 mage, 3 level 20 mages, and a level 20 wizard. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Splendid Lance, I am a little surprised at you .. the best races on PvP servers are invariably the best solo classes which can put out DPS .. ie wizards and to a lesser extent mages. Sustained quick damage is the way to go and this is why you are seeing these casting classes rather than any mellee or hybrid class. regards @ndrew >>OK, this dates back to yesterday. But doing a who all 20/50, there were >>5 people, a level 21 mage, 3 level 20 mages, and a level 20 wizard. [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > regards > @ndrew Today, 8 people over 20. 26 mage. 1 20 mage. 3 20 SK. 21 Enchanter, 20 Shaman Tell me your story again about how its going to be all mages and wizards? Or the one about how melee classes are out of the running? Nearly half the field were melee, and not high damage melee either... unless you count HT, which I suppose you might, if they can keep PvP to one per hour. The chanter though... can a chanter charm yet by 21? How did he make it to 21 in the first place? Definately not a traditional burst damage class. Shaman either, they don't have pet till 34, and while they can DOT nicely, aren't traditional high damage DOTers. Honestly, I don't know a lot about PvP, and I can't seem to get a character to level 6 without dying anyway, so I can't really experiment much. So I don't know one way or the other. Splendid One, 58 Gnomage, Firiona Vie Opus, 3 bard, Discord <SNIP> > Honestly, I don't know a lot about PvP, and I can't seem to get a > character to level 6 without dying anyway, so I can't really experiment > much. So I don't know one way or the other. > > Splendid One, 58 Gnomage, Firiona Vie > Opus, 3 bard, Discord ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Copy-bard........ Remind me to kill you later, I am alsmost to 5 > Today, 8 people over 20. 26 mage. 1 20 mage. 3 20 SK. 21 Enchanter, > 20 Shaman [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > damage class. Shaman either, they don't have pet till 34, and while > they can DOT nicely, aren't traditional high damage DOTers. Shamans have Debuffs, debuffs seem to matter much much more against players. Enchanters can charm at level 8 I think, but you better have sow and be near a zoneline, and by then you will have some of the basic charm soloing tools (Root, color flux, mez... when I was charm soloing in the 40s I used those specific abilities... root, cf, mez. Didn't need the big guns) What you lack for good charm soloing are good haste, but the advantage is those pansy runes are cheap and fairly effective at that level. What I'd bet is you will see some of those are a team. Enchanter-Shaman is a good combo when you only have breeze for mana regen. Mage would be a good addition, solid pets. > hour. The chanter though... can a chanter charm yet by 21? How did he > make it to 21 in the first place? Definately not a traditional burst > damage class. Shaman either, they don't have pet till 34, and while > they can DOT nicely, aren't traditional high damage DOTers. Actually I'd expect enchanters to do very well. You may be in love with charm, but I really don't think it will be useful on this server, even if they have it. Charm is too unreliable. You're not going to get time to run through the zone looking for X monster to charm, buff and then take to a battle. Charm soloing in PVE may work great on the regular servers... but thats mostly because the experience is high enough that the speed of the gain offsets the experience lost to deaths. The extreme riskiness of that strategy does not go well in a "hardcore" (permanent death) enviroment. One big advantage to them is tash. It compounds the caster advantage of everyone having low resistances, and makes their nukes much more effective. Mez and stun also work on players. And work quite well, when the players have negative magic resistance. DoT's are not generally something you want to rely on, IMO. I've seen many battles with DoT'ers that ended up with both combatants dying. A partial win like that is something you cannot afford in a hardcore environment. SignatureDearic - Level 65 Overlord on E'ci Talynne - Level 65 Deceiver on E'ci From the shadows, the mysterious "Davian" <davian@nospammindspring.com> (if that IS his real name) conspiratorially whispered: >> hour. The chanter though... can a chanter charm yet by 21? How did he >> make it to 21 in the first place? Definately not a traditional burst [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >thats mostly because the experience is high enough that the speed of the >gain offsets the experience lost to deaths. This isn't really even true at the levels most people will be at on this discord server. Mob damage output doesn't scale exactly the same way as hp does, and combined with the lower powered buffs enchanters have plus the lower duration of charm itself, for a long time you simply can't get enough milage out of a pet to make it particularly worth it, and thats completely disregarding exp loss for deaths - it's simply not good experience for quite a while. > DoT's are not generally something you want to rely on, IMO. I've seen > many battles with DoT'ers that ended up with both combatants dying. A > partial win like that is something you cannot afford in a hardcore > environment. What if the DoTer has a good escape spell? Say, a Necro who can DoT someone then Shadow Step to get out of melee range and run away? Signature--Tim Smith > OK, this dates back to yesterday. But doing a who all 20/50, there were > 5 people, a level 21 mage, 3 level 20 mages, and a level 20 wizard. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Splendid I saw a level 26 necro yesterday. I also saw a level 20 enchanter. Was wth a level 20 mage and I think lvl 20 shaman tho. All travelling together (through kithicor at night no less) |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2009 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.