Game Forum / Role Playing Games / EverQuest / December 2003
Anyone getting excited about eq2?
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Brett Johnston - 18 Dec 2003 21:34 GMT The graphic update I could care less (what did it do for AC2?) but everything I read about it sounds like they're onto a winner. One interesting feature: characters will visibly age during their lifetime. Not too fast I hope!
Foxeye Vaeltaja - 18 Dec 2003 22:53 GMT > The graphic update I could care less (what did it do for AC2?) but > everything I read about it sounds like they're onto a winner. One > interesting feature: characters will visibly age during their lifetime. Not > too fast I hope! ACtually, no, they won't :( Lots of other neat features, but Moorgard has confirmed that while you can choose to look old at character creation, you will not age over the lifespan of the game.
But there are lots of other cool features! :D
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Veteran Foxeye Vaeltaja Misinformation Queen and 65 Half-Elven Forest Stalker of Xev
Guild Leader of The Luggage http://www.the-luggage.com
"I was just saying that basically if I tried to tell everyone a tree is a tree while they think it's a vegetable then they're going to think I'm a fruit." - Zardak Zephiroth, Forest Stalker Brother on Xev
georg - 18 Dec 2003 23:45 GMT > The graphic update I could care less (what did it do for AC2?) but > everything I read about it sounds like they're onto a winner. One > interesting feature: characters will visibly age during their lifetime. Not > too fast I hope! I'll get excited over EQ2 when they threaten to pull the plug on EQ1.
-georg
Diablo - 19 Dec 2003 00:06 GMT > The graphic update I could care less (what did it do for AC2?) but > everything I read about it sounds like they're onto a winner. One > interesting feature: characters will visibly age during their lifetime. Not > too fast I hope! if it's the same 'graphics update' as lorsd of everquest .. they only support about 10 cards ..
Bjarke Andersen - 19 Dec 2003 02:42 GMT > The graphic update I could care less (what did it do for AC2?) but > everything I read about it sounds like they're onto a winner. One > interesting feature: characters will visibly age during their > lifetime. Not too fast I hope! Heard it will be UO style. You get a bare character you create based upon the usual Strengt, Stamina and Mana. But all skills are enabled so you can decide whether it should be a warrior, cleric, mage etc. or hybrid of those. Skill cap will make it possible for not being a god that is grandmaster in all skills.
Remember something I heard and something that might not be completely true.
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Foxeye Vaeltaja - 19 Dec 2003 17:42 GMT > > The graphic update I could care less (what did it do for AC2?) but > > everything I read about it sounds like they're onto a winner. One [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Remember something I heard and something that might not be completely true. That doesn't sound *quite* right, so it's good you put your disclaimer in. :) I do not know how it was done in UO mind you, but nothing is known about any skills at character creation, just your race, gender, and facial customization. At level 6 you decide whether you are a mage, priest, fighter, scout, or artisan...at 15 you further diversify within that archetype, adn at 30 you pick your final "class". Skills are certainly involved, inasumuch as you cannot actually level if you don't get your skills up (I rather like that part...no level 50 characters with crappy weapon/spell skills), but no one knows the details of what those skills are yet.
As always, for anyone who is actually interested (which seems to be the minority here), www.eqii.com is a wonderful resource.
I'm looking forward to EQ2, but given the prevailing feelings here on this list, I'll spare you the fan-girl comments. :)
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Veteran Foxeye Vaeltaja Misinformation Queen and 65 Half-Elven Forest Stalker of Xev
Guild Leader of The Luggage http://www.the-luggage.com
"I was just saying that basically if I tried to tell everyone a tree is a tree while they think it's a vegetable then they're going to think I'm a fruit." - Zardak Zephiroth, Forest Stalker Brother on Xev
Tim Smith - 19 Dec 2003 19:35 GMT > in. :) I do not know how it was done in UO mind you, but nothing is known > about any skills at character creation, just your race, gender, and facial > customization. At level 6 you decide whether you are a mage, priest, > fighter, scout, or artisan...at 15 you further diversify within that > archetype, adn at 30 you pick your final "class". Skills are certainly I hope they put some kind of fast advancement system in for people who have already played through, or they will have the same kind of problem DAoC has at low levels, but worse.
In DAoC, you pick a base class at character creation, and then at level 5, you pick your final class. Consider Friars and Clerics. They both have the same base class. So, levels 1-4 are *identical* for them. The only difference between a 1-4 who is going to be a Cleric and one who is going to be a Friar is that they probably allocated their stats different. All the rest (spells and fighting ability) will be the same. If they picked the same race, they'll have the same starting area, the same quests, the same trainer.
That's nice the first time or so, but after that, you just want to get out of 1-4 so you can actually start playing the class you intended.
That sounds like it could even be worse in EQ2, because at least in DAoC, if I did a Cleric, and then tried something else, as long as that something else was not a Friar, I'd at least have different spells and skills 1-4, even if I picked a race with the same starting area. (Would still have many of the same quests). If 1-5 are the same for *everybody* in EQ2 of a given race/start point, no matter what class they are aiming for, I can see getting sick of it real quick. Seems it would be 1-5 worse; 6-14 about the same annoyance factor as DAoC, 15-29 less annoying but still annoying.
What they've done on DAoC that helps greatly with this is making it so if you reach level 50 with any character on your account, you get to use the /level command on your other characters. /level, if you are below 20, sets your XP to enough to put you at level 20.5. There are NPCs in the capital cities that will give you gear so you aren't naked.
I wonder if they'll do something like that? I'd like this:
1. If you reach 15, you can start new characters at 6.
2. If you reach 30, you can start new characters at 15.
3. If you reach 45, you can start new characters at 30 in the same group. That is, if you have a 45 priest, you can start new priests at 30, but if you wanted a mage, you could only start at up to 15.
4. If you reach 60, you can start any new character at 30.
 Signature Evidence Eliminator is worthless. See evidence-eliminator-sucks.com --Tim Smith
42 - 19 Dec 2003 19:54 GMT >>in. :) I do not know how it was done in UO mind you, but nothing is known >>about any skills at character creation, just your race, gender, and facial [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > 4. If you reach 60, you can start any new character at 30. And the rich get richer.... :|
No, I don't see it as a problem in the first place... so what if levels 1-4 are identical... they take 30 minutes, untwinked??
Foxeye Vaeltaja - 19 Dec 2003 20:02 GMT > > in. :) I do not know how it was done in UO mind you, but nothing is known > > about any skills at character creation, just your race, gender, and facial [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > already played through, or they will have the same kind of problem DAoC has > at low levels, but worse. <snip some valid points>
I believe that levels 1-6 can be done in 30 minutes, is how it was quoted. Probably the sort of thing where new players will follow a hand-holding quest to learn how to play the game, and for them it would take several hours due to following quest steps and learning the UI, but for those who know it, they can skip the quests and zip through it fast. Also worth noting is that until level 6 you do not choose your starting city (unless your race only appears in one city), so that is also the moment where you set your allegiance.
What will come to pass from 7-29 I can't say, but I *can* say that it is highly highly unlikely they will allow you to skip levels if you already have high level characters. They intend to put enough fun content in for low levels that I don't think they would be pleased to let people bypass it. So let us just hope that it isn't dull to repeat the same archetype.
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Veteran Foxeye Vaeltaja Misinformation Queen and 65 Half-Elven Forest Stalker of Xev
Guild Leader of The Luggage http://www.the-luggage.com
"I was just saying that basically if I tried to tell everyone a tree is a tree while they think it's a vegetable then they're going to think I'm a fruit." - Zardak Zephiroth, Forest Stalker Brother on Xev
zoa - 19 Dec 2003 05:28 GMT I am disapointed that the release date slipped in a big way.
The client is pretty old and alot of my friends have been lured to other MMORPG's despite having spent years on their characters.
Perhaps its my imagination but numbers seem to be thinning a bit on my server (Bristlebane).
Darktyger - 20 Dec 2003 05:48 GMT >I am disapointed that the release date slipped in a big way. If that surprises you, you haven't followed many games in development.
:p Sliding release dates are pretty standard.  Signature Dark Tyger, keeper of the Nerf Railgun(tm)
All hail the Thief....
-martin - 19 Dec 2003 12:35 GMT Graeme Faelban - 19 Dec 2003 14:19 GMT Nope
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Mary Poppins - 19 Dec 2003 15:10 GMT brettjoh2003@yahoo.com.au (Brett Johnston) wrote in <c3pEb.57511$aT.55178 @news-server.bigpond.net.au>:
>everything I read about it sounds like they're onto a winner. SOE wouldn't write something negative about their multi-million dollar product, they are the only source of information.
The game isn't EQ2. From what SOE has released so far on the game it will not appeal to me.
 Signature -Mary "I have no intention of making a spectacle of myself thank you." Poppins
42 - 21 Dec 2003 21:42 GMT > brettjoh2003@yahoo.com.au (Brett Johnston) wrote in <c3pEb.57511$aT.55178 > @news-server.bigpond.net.au>: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > The game isn't EQ2. From what SOE has released so far on the game it will > not appeal to me. Heh... and based on most of the stuff written about EQ1 it shouldn't appeal to very many people either.
Pointless character cration stats, worthless quests, mostly worthless tradeskills, liberal use of the nerf bat, endless factioning on creatures with no loot and no experience, endless camping of creatures with no loot and no experience, plat duping exploits, dismal customer service, 'the boats' (now gone), the 'spell book' (now gone), naked corpse recoveries, beyond stupid bug-fix kludges, monsters that run through walls, "zoning", xp loss (and naked corpse recovery) for getting squashed by a hill giant during zone in...
I enjoy EQ quite a bit... but its something one has to experience... if you just read about the various game mechanics I would immediately conclude its a piece of crap. But its not, its a good game on a more sublime level, despite being a lumbering hunk of junk mechanically.
Same with EQ2, if they deliver the same mix of challenge, and support/encouragement for social interaction it could be a winner, in spite of bad mechanics. Not saying it will happen... but writing it off because you don't like a few mechanics is silly... eq1 is full of brain-dead mechanics and we still like it 'just fine'.
Graeme Faelban - 22 Dec 2003 14:20 GMT >> brettjoh2003@yahoo.com.au (Brett Johnston) wrote in >> <c3pEb.57511$aT.55178 @news-server.bigpond.net.au>: [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > off because you don't like a few mechanics is silly... eq1 is full of > brain-dead mechanics and we still like it 'just fine'. The thing is, people are talking about what SoE is saying about EQ2, not other people. I don't think for one moment that your description of EQ is in any way reflected by what SoE (well, Verant) had to say about it prior to it's release.
 Signature On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr> Elder Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Prophet of 65 seasons Tainniel Fleabane, Halfling Warrior of 31 seasons Giluven, Wood Elf Druid of 26 seasons Graeniel, High Elf Enchanter of 25 seasons
42 - 23 Dec 2003 04:42 GMT >>>brettjoh2003@yahoo.com.au (Brett Johnston) wrote in >>><c3pEb.57511$aT.55178 @news-server.bigpond.net.au>: [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > is in any way reflected by what SoE (well, Verant) had to say about it > prior to it's release. True.
But what is SOE saying about EQ2 that is such a turn off?
Seems to me to be mostly mechanics issues regarding everything from combat to class progression... which in the final analysis is pretty inconsequential... after all: It sure isn't the great mechanics that keep me interested in EQ1!! :)
georg - 23 Dec 2003 11:07 GMT > But what is SOE saying about EQ2 that is such a turn off? To me?
I don't want item decay or "level appropriate only" gear. I realize it's a way to prevent twinking and mudflation, but I don't find it attractive.
I don't really want to start all over again finding new friends, and I don't really want to start a new character and go through a tedious process of figuring out exactly which sort of character suits me best in the new game. Took me a year and a half to find that a necro suited me thoroughly.
I just don't *want* another game.
-georg
42 - 23 Dec 2003 15:38 GMT >> But what is SOE saying about EQ2 that is such a turn off? > > To me? > > I don't want item decay or "level appropriate only" gear. I realize it's > a way to prevent twinking and mudflation, but I don't find it attractive. Case in point... pure mechanics. I, for example, can live with item decay if it means I won't spend an hour LFG, and once finding a group another 3 hours sitting in one corner of one dungeon... pulling one or two rooms. Because I don't find that attractive either... :)
> I don't really want to start all over again finding new friends, and I > don't really want to start a new character and go through a tedious > process of figuring out exactly which sort of character suits me best in > the new game. Took me a year and a half to find that a necro suited me > thoroughly. Well these have nothing to do with EQ2 per se, and highlight the fact that you have no interest in any other game under any circumstances.
> I just don't *want* another game. Are you really so happy that you would refuse to even consider the possibility that things could be better? :)
> -georg Ringo - 23 Dec 2003 16:31 GMT >>> But what is SOE saying about EQ2 that is such a turn off? >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >> -georg BLASPHOMY!!! The gods will strike you for that 42 :)
LoL it human nature to get stuck in a rut and resist change. Its also human natures to finally realize change is an irresistible force. After leaving EQ I found a game that works better for me, no illusions that its in anyway permanent just nice for now. Really hope EQ2 does turn out well, but think chances are higher of me hitting the Power Ball...
Leaden Youhome - 26 Dec 2003 04:00 GMT However good/bad EQ turns out to be I think I am going to wait a couple years after it is released before I jump in full steam and play this game. There are many titles on console that I want to check out, let alone the handful on PC that are worth a look as well. EQ is too time consuming as it is. I think there will be a good majority of EQ players who have been here since beta who will jump at the opportunity of something new and familar to explore, yet on the other hand by the time it is released there will be a number of current EQ players who will think that it is another distraction from becoming the best of the best.
> >>> But what is SOE saying about EQ2 that is such a turn off? > >> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > turn out well, but think chances are higher of me hitting the Power > Ball... hughes - 26 Dec 2003 07:47 GMT > However good/bad EQ turns out to be I think I am going to wait a couple > years after it is released before I jump in full steam and play this game. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > number of current EQ players who will think that it is another distraction > from becoming the best of the best. Thats where the main mistake is . I DO NOT expect all of the old eq hands to jump to eq2 . I expect VERY few will do so. What exactly are they offering me that will make me be willing to give up characters I have been running for 5 years?
I know that eq2 is either going to bomb horribly or have a semi forced transfer from eq.
georg - 23 Dec 2003 16:35 GMT > Are you really so happy that you would refuse to even consider the > possibility that things could be better? :) Pretty much. If I want to play something other than EQ, I play something else. Like the Sims, or Monster Rancher, or Pokemon.
-georg
42 - 23 Dec 2003 18:20 GMT >> Are you really so happy that you would refuse to even consider the >> possibility that things could be better? :) > > Pretty much. If I want to play something other than EQ, I play something > else. Like the Sims, or Monster Rancher, or Pokemon. I'm not surprised, and I think that may be a characteristic many in this ng share, that the "eq community" and the "comfort of EQ" are worth more than a technically and mechanically superior game.
The 'web boards' are less like this, and its interesting to ponder if there is a commonality that leads people who use usenet to be people who are more loyal to EQ&community and people who use web-boards to be people who are more predisposed to be champing at the bit for the next title. (I guess the people who frequent both are just lost :p )
Ben Sisson - 24 Dec 2003 01:06 GMT From the shadows, the mysterious 42 <user@example.net> (if that IS his real name) conspiratorially whispered:
>>> Are you really so happy that you would refuse to even consider the >>> possibility that things could be better? :) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > ng share, that the "eq community" and the "comfort of EQ" are worth >more than a technically and mechanically superior game. We have no idea at this time if it is a mechanically superior game, and what I've read about it does not really lead me to believe it will be.
I could be surprised, after all games have to be taken on all their merits not just its pieces... but I would be surprised to be surprised.
42 - 24 Dec 2003 19:14 GMT > From the shadows, the mysterious 42 <user@example.net> (if that IS his > real name) conspiratorially whispered: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > merits not just its pieces... but I would be surprised to be > surprised. The context is that it *doesn't* matter if its a mechanically superior game. EQ2 could be crap or it could be the cat's meow but georg and many others don't *want* to change to a different game. They are comfortable with EQ1 and they have friends. It isn't a matter of pessimism based on what SOE has told us so far...It simply doesn't matter how much better any new game is (EQ2 or any other title... and another title will eventually eclipse EQ1...)
hughes - 24 Dec 2003 08:33 GMT > >> Are you really so happy that you would refuse to even consider the > >> possibility that things could be better? :) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > ng share, that the "eq community" and the "comfort of EQ" are worth > more than a technically and mechanically superior game. More graphics to turn off?
Most of the inherent weaknesses of Eq could be fixed from the inside. The only real unsolvable problem is that 90% of the content has been completely consumed.
My pet peeves 1)nodrop equipment makes absolutely no sense, level restricted euipment that could easily show up for people of insuficient level. 2)class balance, and some classes dont bear the correct nomiker 3)raids balanced for 72 people of class xxxx,yyy,zz,l and groups balanced for x,y,h,p. actually im not really fond of raiding at all even though I do so for phat lewts. 4)needless tedium , (kill 172 goblins to raise a skill, camp item here for 3 days, omg tradeskills, etc) 5)rewards are far too closely tied to political skill (ldon starting to fix this, but i would much prefer for instance a system where a raid killed the uber mob and 3 random raid members gain their droppable ubereuipment they have no use for ) 6)skills, levels and class advancement are far to strictly laid out.
thats about it . All are addressable in eq. Somehow I dont expect eq 2 to address them any better than eq does.
georg - 24 Dec 2003 11:26 GMT >>>>Are you really so happy that you would refuse to even consider the >>>>possibility that things could be better? :) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> ng share, that the "eq community" and the "comfort of EQ" are worth >>more than a technically and mechanically superior game. I don't care who thinks it's a superior game for whatever reason. I'm not sure if you are getting my point. I tried DAOC and SWG and a couple of other games, and they only made me want to play EQ. I was positively peeved when they changed the inventory screen to resemble the DAOC inventory screen. I hate it when they try to make EQ more like other games.
There are times when the new and improved product may in fact be better in all aspects except it's not the original. New Coke anyone? I've had to change brands of shampoo and laundry soap because they tinkered with the formula to make it better, only to make awful to my perception.
I have zero urge to play a game that is close to EQ but isn't. I don't want to play anything else in the same genre. If I'm not playing EQ, I don't want anything like it.
The whole concept of starting over and maintaining characters in both worlds strikes me as idiocy. I don't have the time or the energy any more.
-georg
42 - 24 Dec 2003 19:20 GMT >>>>Are you really so happy that you would refuse to even consider the >>>>possibility that things could be better? :) [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > More graphics to turn off? Sooner or later you'll upgrade anyways... if its 2+ years from now... you likely will be well ahead of any current generation game.
> Most of the inherent weaknesses of Eq could be fixed from the inside. The > only real unsolvable problem is that 90% of the content has been completely > consumed.
> My pet peeves > 1)nodrop equipment makes absolutely no sense, level restricted euipment that [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > thats about it . All are addressable in eq. Somehow I dont expect eq 2 to > address them any better than eq does. Technically you are right, but change most of the stuff like this and you'll lose players like georg.
If your going to fundamentally change a game it makes far more sense to do it in a new game. You aren't working with legacy code and you aren't pissing customers off who are happy with the existing product.
hughes - 25 Dec 2003 04:25 GMT > > thats about it . All are addressable in eq. Somehow I dont expect eq 2 to > > address them any better than eq does. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > do it in a new game. You aren't working with legacy code and you aren't > pissing customers off who are happy with the existing product. Yes we are far past where a new version needs to be implemented. But no one is going to change untill and unless they allow character transfer. A wipe is unfeasible for most people. I fully expect eq2 to be a bug fix version of eq with a new graphics engine. I also expect it to either bomb horribly or allow character transfers.
42 - 25 Dec 2003 10:46 GMT > Yes we are far past where a new version needs to be implemented. But no one > is going to change untill and unless they allow character transfer. A wipe > is unfeasible for most people. I fully expect eq2 to be a bug fix version of > eq with a new graphics engine. I also expect it to either bomb horribly or > allow character transfers. But then the game should really *start* at level 65 with 100 AAs. New players with new characters could start at level 62 with 50 AAs. There is NO point to putting low level content into a game where many/most people are going to transfer in at level 60+.
Could an EQ2 run from level 65-120... possibly... games like this have been done, and done well... but we already know that EQ2 at least isn't going to try this angle.
Lance Berg - 25 Dec 2003 16:48 GMT >>>thats about it . All are addressable in eq. Somehow I dont expect eq 2 > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > eq with a new graphics engine. I also expect it to either bomb horribly or > allow character transfers. I don't understand this point of view at all.
EQ is not currently running on its original graphics engine, and there's a third (fourth?) replacement engine on the way.
Bug fix? We've done that many times.
If you want EQ with bug fixes and a new graphics engine, you already have your wish, and can keep having your wish as long as they care to keep upgrading the game as they have over its life thus far.
IF QE2 is merely going to be a gussied up version of the original game, with character transfer, then there's really no point to it, we are already playing EQ 6 and soon to be 7.
If, on the other hand, the idea is to replace some of the original assumptions of the game, such as character classes (perhaps using just three basic classes, further differentiated by choices made after creation), quests that involve repeatedly killing the same mob over and over, so on and so forth... then its Not something that could have been packaged as another EQ expansion, and it doesn't make a lot of sense to allow character transfers.
I think it would be clever to in some way create some continuity by rewarding players with high level EQ characters with some sort of flash they can put on their EQ2 characters that doesn't make them more powerful, but thats really more a marketing consideration; how do we make people feel that what they did in EQ still matters when they are playing EQ2, without making those new to the line feel cheated by not having the same opportunities as the old hands.
But its not going to be an EQ expansion, makes no sense for it to be that... and in that case, you have to question, why am I going to want to move from an enourmous, successful game that I have years of experience in, that keeps coming out with new expansions that expand the game -and- improve the game, to one which is bound to be smaller in scope, full of bugs, and hideous imbalances (just as EQ was when released, and to some extent is again with every new expansion)
Game thats had years of fixing and balancing based on hundreds of thousands of playtesters (thats what we all are, really, a huge pool of playtesters...) and 6 (soon to be 7) major expansions plus quite a few minor free expansions... or one thats currently figuring out how to get people to pay for the chance to beta test.
EQ 2 has to be different from EQ 1 in order to generate any interest in moving, but if its going to be different, why not make it really different; to me, trying to cash in on a superficial resemblance to a currently successful game line seems... gratuitous and a bit silly.
All that effort being put into game mechanics, how about getting a new creative idea while you are at it, instead of recycling Verant's old hobbyhorse. Calling the new game EQ 2 makes me Less likely to try it out... and knowing its coming from the same company that put out SWG doesn't help a lot either (yes, I know, its different people on the project... but still, not confidence inspiring)
But calling it something different wouldn't make me switch either, after all, I haven't even tried AC or DAoC. Three things could make me switch: A) really astoundingly good sounding game, ideas, mechanics, depth and breadth. B) Stop all support for EQ1. No more expansions, no more fixes, no more freebies. Just let it die. C) decent sounding game that other EQ people try and really rave about.
Trouble with A is you'd really have to go a Long ways to get my attention, minor tweaks just make me think "great, do that for EQ then, and shut up about this "new game".
Trouble with B is you are shooting yourself in the foot, driving away a known customer base in the hopes of creating a new one. But heck, I'm as likely to move to a really new game as I am to happen to pick EQ 2 to jump to.
C then is the best chance of me moving over; I won't be the first in, and I won't be there suffering thru the birth pangs... but maybe if its really really good, I'll give in and take the plunge.
Oddly, it won't make SOE any money, really, if I do. Because if I move and its good, I'll move. Stop paying the EQ account, pay the EQ2 account instead. The money they make off me on the actual game itself is nothing compared to the monthly fee... and it seems to me I pay as much for an EQ expansion as for most new games; if EQ2 was instead EQ expansion 8, then they'd have me for Certain, and collect the same monthly fees as ever.
Makes me go Hmmm.
Splendid
42 - 27 Dec 2003 07:39 GMT <snip>
> I think it would be clever to in some way create some continuity by > rewarding players with high level EQ characters with some sort of flash [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > playing EQ2, without making those new to the line feel cheated by not > having the same opportunities as the old hands. /agree
<snip>
> Oddly, it won't make SOE any money, really, if I do. Because if I move > and its good, I'll move. Stop paying the EQ account, pay the EQ2 [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Makes me go Hmmm. Then again... EQ1 is a piece of crap code-wise at this point, so patching and maintenance could cost more per fix than a fresh codebase.
More importantly: nothing they do makes sense anymore...un-named frogs that are tougher than dragons & gods... newbie expansion common drops that outclass old dragon loot...
EQ1 has evolved and they have upgraded the engine and the mechanics and the interface... but they haven't made a coherent title from a world perspective anymore... it is the most illogical game to actually play. The only way to make your way through everquest is to rely on websites and longtime players....
A fresh start even in EQ1's world+mechanics but with *rewritten* (not just "additional") content and all new level 1 characters would be an exciting day from my perspective. To me that is the potential promise of EQ2... and a good reason to release an EQ2 instead of NewTitle1.
Graeme Faelban - 29 Dec 2003 14:33 GMT >>>>>Are you really so happy that you would refuse to even consider the >>>>>possibility that things could be better? :) [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > to do it in a new game. You aren't working with legacy code and you > aren't pissing customers off who are happy with the existing product. That would have made sense before they started on the current trend in EQ perhaps, but it seems like it's a bit late now to worry about that. The current EQ bears very little resemblence to the original. Many think it's better, many don't.
 Signature On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr> Elder Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Prophet of 65 seasons Tainniel Fleabane, Halfling Warrior of 31 seasons Giluven, Wood Elf Druid of 26 seasons Graeniel, High Elf Enchanter of 25 seasons
42 - 29 Dec 2003 19:44 GMT > That would have made sense before they started on the current trend in EQ > perhaps, but it seems like it's a bit late now to worry about that. The > current EQ bears very little resemblence to the original. Many think > it's better, many don't. EQ is not so different now then it was 4 years ago. New UIs and new Graphics don't make a new game, very few relevant changes have been made to the actual game.
Graeme Faelban - 29 Dec 2003 21:50 GMT >> That would have made sense before they started on the current trend >> in EQ perhaps, but it seems like it's a bit late now to worry about [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Graphics don't make a new game, very few relevant changes have been > made to the actual game. I'd have to disagree pretty strongly. I was not referring to the graphics, or the UI, more to the very strong drift from the original "vision". The game has changed pretty significantly in that regard. Call me a masochist, but, I actually liked it back when you did have to take the boats or find a porter to get to places. Back when there were no soulbinders, and it actually took a little bit of effort to get to level 10. In many ways it is not anything like what it used to be, many say it's better because of those exact changes, but, not all of us.
 Signature On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr> Elder Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Prophet of 65 seasons Tainniel Fleabane, Halfling Warrior of 31 seasons Giluven, Wood Elf Druid of 26 seasons Graeniel, High Elf Enchanter of 25 seasons
42 - 29 Dec 2003 22:23 GMT >>>That would have made sense before they started on the current trend >>>in EQ perhaps, but it seems like it's a bit late now to worry about [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > level 10. In many ways it is not anything like what it used to be, many > say it's better because of those exact changes, but, not all of us. I liked it more 'back then too'... but in the big scheme of things level 1 to 10 is and always was a heartbeat.
Things like soulbinders and portstones are a reflection of the expanded game today... once upon a time you couldn't go to a newbie city and routinely combe be unable to find someone who could bind you...now they're deserted ... putting the soulbinders in made a lot of sense...nothing sucked more than taking a 30th level pali to halas to bind before going into Permafrost and not being able to find anybody for the better part of an hour... so you head to qeynos and there isn't anybody there either... might as well call it a night... because hunting giants or ice goblins or whatever isn't a fun prospect if you are still bound in gfay... which would be the reality if soulbinders and portstones were absent. And don't say that if there were no port stones and soulbinders players would be fillng this niche... because in the luclin and velious eras I regularly had to log out because my characters couldn't get a bind in places like Halas or Grobb and there was no way I was going to go adventuring when I was bound an hour or more away.
I think it was a massive failure of the game designers to allow the old world to become obsolete in the first place, but having that as a fait accompli... putting soul binders and portstones in is only a logical move.
But regardless... the journey from 1 to 50 is much as it was 4 years ago, except now you have the option of equipping yourself with fabulous gear for minimal effort due to the player economy (which is not a game mechanic per se) and there is nothing SOE could have done about that within the original game... even with no expansions... EQ lacks item decay and level requirements... the longer the game goes the more stuff will exist and the cheaper the best stuff you can buy will get.
I agree the game is 'easier' now than it was... but as the game matured it was actually getting harder to get ports and binds at low levels... as usual SOE used a sledge hammer when a pair of tweezers was required... but for all that: *something* had to be done.
beagle@dogs-like-spam.com - 30 Dec 2003 01:29 GMT > I liked it more 'back then too'... but in the big scheme of things level > 1 to 10 is and always was a heartbeat. I think 1 to 5 is too easy but 6 to 10 is reasonable enough.
> Things like soulbinders and portstones are a reflection of the expanded > game today... once upon a time you couldn't go to a newbie city What is a "newbie" city? Are there "non-newbie" cities?
> and > routinely combe be unable to find someone who could bind you...now > they're deserted ... putting the soulbinders in made a lot of > sense...nothing sucked more than taking a 30th level pali to halas to > bind before going into Permafrost and not being able to find anybody for > the better part of an hour... Perhaps SOE could have solved that problem another way. Maybe there is something SOE could have put in the cities to make them a more desirable place to be. The cities can be an awful lonely place. Which is weird!
That being said I like the soulbinders and would not remove them.
> so you head to qeynos and there isn't > anybody there either... might as well call it a night... because hunting [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > couldn't get a bind in places like Halas or Grobb and there was no way I > was going to go adventuring when I was bound an hour or more away. Ouch. :(
> I think it was a massive failure of the game designers to allow the old > world to become obsolete in the first place, but having that as a fait [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > decay and level requirements... the longer the game goes the more stuff > will exist and the cheaper the best stuff you can buy will get. I always wondered if this would work: Perhaps equipment you can buy/sell (trade) should slowly but surely decay and stuff that is NO DROP should not decay. I wonder how well that would solve the "mudflation" problem.
> I agree the game is 'easier' now than it was... but as the game matured > it was actually getting harder to get ports and binds at low levels... > as usual SOE used a sledge hammer when a pair of tweezers was > required... but for all that: *something* had to be done. Well said.
sugarman - 30 Dec 2003 04:23 GMT >> I liked it more 'back then too'... but in the big scheme of things level >> 1 to 10 is and always was a heartbeat. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >What is a "newbie" city? Are there "non-newbie" cities? Any city where you can start a character is a newbie cite. Non-newvie cities would be Thurgadin, Kael, Skyshrine, Sanctus Seru, Katta Castellum, and probably PoK too. Maybe a couple others.
--sugarman--
beagle@dogs-like-spam.com - 30 Dec 2003 16:32 GMT >>What is a "newbie" city? Are there "non-newbie" cities?
> Any city where you can start a character is a newbie cite. Non-newvie > cities would be Thurgadin, Kael, Skyshrine, Sanctus Seru, Katta > Castellum, and probably PoK too. Maybe a couple others. Oh I see. Thank you sugarman.
42 - 30 Dec 2003 09:46 GMT >>I liked it more 'back then too'... but in the big scheme of things level >>1 to 10 is and always was a heartbeat. > > I think 1 to 5 is too easy but 6 to 10 is reasonable enough. 20 to 21 is longer than 1 to 10. And 50-51 makes 1 to 10 seem like an eyeblink.
>>Things like soulbinders and portstones are a reflection of the expanded >>game today... once upon a time you couldn't go to a newbie city > > What is a "newbie" city? Cities new characters start in. Freeport, Kelethin, Cabilis, Shar Vahl, Gukta...
Are there "non-newbie" cities?
Many...Thurgadin, Shadowhaven, Katta Castellum, Kael Drakkal...
>>and >>routinely combe be unable to find someone who could bind you...now [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > something SOE could have put in the cities to make them a more desirable > place to be. The cities can be an awful lonely place. Which is weird! My sentiments exactly.
Although ...for a start... all SOE had to do was not create completely central hubs like the pok...and keep specific resources out of major cities to drive traffic to the out of the way ones.
> That being said I like the soulbinders and would not remove them. /agree. But back when the game was young there was always people in their tweens coming and going who would bind you. And most people were bound in 'friendly' cities not all in the pok.
>>so you head to qeynos and there isn't >>anybody there either... might as well call it a night... because hunting [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > (trade) should slowly but surely decay and stuff that is NO DROP should > not decay. I wonder how well that would solve the "mudflation" problem. Not well at all ... No Drop is already an anti-mudflation tactic, but its oppressive because it invalidates the player economy. And upgrading a nodrop basically renders the item completely worthless.
Item decay makes more sense, but if the items are not reparable players don't generally want them (think rare drop... 'charged' items in EQ... the charges are worthless... if value of the item is its charges its much less valuable overall. If the items are reparable then you basically have added a cash/time sink to the game... but not an item sink.
Level restrictions are also a good mudflation tactic, but all that accomplishes is anti-twinking... old content is still worthless to pursue after new content obsoletes it.
The real key, as I see it, to mudflation is to build on previous content instead of invalidating it. Imagine if the best armour in the PoP game was obtained by killing PoP Gods, and combining items they drop with powerful items from Kunark, Velious, and Old World drops... this would keep the old world items if not in active 'use' in active demand... and out of level one hands. So the guy who played right from '99 and has his Fear armor, and his velious armour, and can take his pop armour and combine them to get something just a little better... he doesn't *have* to go for the old armours... but if he does he gets some more bang for his buck.
beagle@dogs-like-spam.com - 30 Dec 2003 17:07 GMT > 20 to 21 is longer than 1 to 10. And 50-51 makes 1 to 10 seem like an > eyeblink. I've played many characters to mid-40's and never felt 20 to 21 took longer than 1 to 10. However, I didn't pay attention to how long the leveling took. I also don't twink and generally do all the newbie armor quests on each new character. That probably increases the time it takes me to do 1 to 10.
> My sentiments exactly. > > Although ...for a start... all SOE had to do was not create completely > central hubs like the pok...and keep specific resources out of major > cities to drive traffic to the out of the way ones. I like/dislike places like PoK. It's convenient but...perhaps too convenient. If it were up to me (everyone is probably very lucky it's not :), I would have implemented a Diablo II-style travel mechanism.
beagle@dogs-like-spam.com - 30 Dec 2003 17:18 GMT >> I always wondered if this would work: Perhaps equipment you can buy/sell >> (trade) should slowly but surely decay and stuff that is NO DROP should >> not decay. I wonder how well that would solve the "mudflation" problem.
> Not well at all ... No Drop is already an anti-mudflation tactic, but > its oppressive because it invalidates the player economy. And upgrading > a nodrop basically renders the item completely worthless. I was thinking more along the lines of really special magic items being bound to your soul somehow... That way if you work really hard to complete a challenging quest, the reward you get at the end wouldn't decay. But the item would be magically bound to you. Same as NO DROP I guess, but "soulbound" has more flavor. :)
It might have the desirable side effect of encouraging people to do more quests, too... Because their regular equipment would decay, and that would be annoying. But the system would have to be carefully balanced so that regular equipment was still worth buying and repairing.
In such a system I probably wouldn't let any item ever be repaired back to 100%......maybe 90%. So if your sword could strike an enemy 1000 times before breaking, the first repair would only repair it up to 900 hits (90%), and the second repair would only repair it up to 810 hits, etc. Which gives it a longer life and makes it reasonably tradeable... But still limits its life.
Something like that anyway. :)
> Item decay makes more sense, but if the items are not reparable players > don't generally want them (think rare drop... 'charged' items in EQ... > the charges are worthless... if value of the item is its charges its > much less valuable overall. If the items are reparable then you > basically have added a cash/time sink to the game... but not an item sink. Perhaps allow smiths to repair, as well as having some NPC's that can do it. And add some magic spells that let you add charges back to items that hold magical charges.
> Level restrictions are also a good mudflation tactic, but all that > accomplishes is anti-twinking... old content is still worthless to > pursue after new content obsoletes it. I am probably in the minority here but I believe EQ has too much content for some levels...it's depressing to see so many empty zones these days...
> The real key, as I see it, to mudflation is to build on previous content > instead of invalidating it. Imagine if the best armour in the PoP game [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > to go for the old armours... but if he does he gets some more bang for > his buck. Neat idea.
sanjian - 31 Dec 2003 03:12 GMT > The real key, as I see it, to mudflation is to build on previous > content instead of invalidating it. Imagine if the best armour in the PoP game
> was obtained by killing PoP Gods, and combining items they drop with > powerful items from Kunark, Velious, and Old World drops... this would [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > to go for the old armours... but if he does he gets some more bang for > his buck. From your mouth to SoE's ears. It's alot like the progressive quests such as the Qeynos Badge or the Thurg Shawl quests. Still, everyone thought they would do that in PoP with the much-rumored Epic Upgrades. Even with the interest that the idea sparked, SoE decided not to bother.
Hope comes and goes sometimes.
Ringo - 22 Dec 2003 15:28 GMT >> brettjoh2003@yahoo.com.au (Brett Johnston) wrote in <c3pEb.57511$aT.55178 >> @news-server.bigpond.net.au>: [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >because you don't like a few mechanics is silly... eq1 is full of >brain-dead mechanics and we still like it 'just fine'. Unfortunatly if EQ1 were released today with the higher expectations not many would sign up. And you must consider that the creative force behind EQ1 has long left and maybe that was all EQ had going for it, great "vision" in the begining. Dont count on that from SoE ....
42 - 23 Dec 2003 04:46 GMT >>>brettjoh2003@yahoo.com.au (Brett Johnston) wrote in <c3pEb.57511$aT.55178 >>>@news-server.bigpond.net.au>: [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > behind EQ1 has long left and maybe that was all EQ had going for it, > great "vision" in the begining. Dont count on that from SoE .... And you can cite the tepid response to SWG to justify that too. ;)
Though its hard to say if SOE ruined Star Wars or whether Lucas' new Trilogy beat them to it :) ... but still you are quite right... in many respects I'd prefer to play Verants EQ than SOEs... but then what I'd really like is to give EQ to the fine team at Turbine :)
Irregardless... SOE doesn't have to invent the wheel with EQ2... they just have to evolve it without turning it into a square... I'm not saying they'll succeed... but I'm not going to write it off until I've seen it either. :)
Malakia - 19 Dec 2003 15:11 GMT > The graphic update I could care less (what did it do for AC2?) but > everything I read about it sounds like they're onto a winner. One > interesting feature: characters will visibly age during their lifetime. Not > too fast I hope! if its like galaxies, and plays and runs like sh.t, then no Im not
Ben Sisson - 19 Dec 2003 18:15 GMT From the shadows, the mysterious "Brett Johnston" <brettjoh2003@yahoo.com.au> (if that IS his real name) conspiratorially whispered:
>The graphic update I could care less (what did it do for AC2?) but >everything I read about it sounds like they're onto a winner. Lost most my interest in it when it seemed clear most the fighting areas would be instanced.
Foxeye Vaeltaja - 19 Dec 2003 18:54 GMT > From the shadows, the mysterious "Brett Johnston" > <brettjoh2003@yahoo.com.au> (if that IS his real name) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Lost most my interest in it when it seemed clear most the fighting > areas would be instanced. Not true Ben, actually. Dungeons are not instanced, just quest encounters and, say, fancy mobs. Like if just Trakanon in Sebilis were instanced. So you have the social dungeon atmosphere until you get to the "good stuff". Then you can go off into your corner and have the mob to your greedy little selves. :)
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Veteran Foxeye Vaeltaja Misinformation Queen and 65 Half-Elven Forest Stalker of Xev
Guild Leader of The Luggage http://www.the-luggage.com
"I was just saying that basically if I tried to tell everyone a tree is a tree while they think it's a vegetable then they're going to think I'm a fruit." - Zardak Zephiroth, Forest Stalker Brother on Xev
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