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Another prize winning level

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Lance Berg - 16 Dec 2003 14:59 GMT
Oooh, 58.

Fire pet... but all the 50s' fire pets are nigh unusable, because they
cast off a wizard list only with no sense at all; this means they might
snare (which is a good thing), might nuke (a decent one, too), but also
might root (annoying, and if you -want- root, the earth pet will do it
all the time instead of once per fight at random) and worse might
Dispell (thanks for removing slow and snare and cripple and MOR!), and
their nuke has a knockback component so the mob is jinking around
unpredictably, and they also use an AE nuke from time to time, waking
mezzed mobs, aggroing non KOS mobs, slaying hollow trees and bitten
victims (hello spiders!).  In short, under normal circumstances no sane
mage is going to use this thing in a group!  I paid 50pp for this spell,
which in my opinion was high, but I do like a full book.

Malosini.  Another in the Malo line, still not unresistable.  Two more
levels I get the unresistable one.  I question the need for this one, I
currently use Malaise (the level 9 spell) for most cases where I need a
resist debuff, its faster, cheaper, and gets the job done just fine 80%
of the time.  If I -need- malosi to land spells, I probably can't land
malosi anyway, in fact it seems to be resisted more than my nukes.  And
resisted just as often as malaise (if it was resisted less than malaise
I'd use it, none of the line are that expensive or long casting).  The
one time I do use Malosi is when someone lower level than me in my group
is having a hard time landing spells (especially if its the slower);
then reducing the resists as much as possible seems to pay off; I'm sure
I'll use Malosini instead of Malosi, but I bet I keep casting Malaise
more than either.

Velocity... can't find in bazaar so far.  SOW for my pet.  Maybe he'll
be able to keep up with me, Expedience isn't fast enough for run 3.  I
cast Expedience fairly rarely, though, its really only useful in outdoor
camps with runners and no snarer, or in kiting groups, or when (as I
rarely do) I'm roaming around an outdoor area killing things on sight.
Most important thing Velocity could be for me would be a much longer
duration; having to swap in Expedience to cast it is part of what keeps
me from bothering.

Guard of Calliav.  Sort of a rune for pets, keeps the first two hits on
him from doing any damage.  This line seems surpassingly silly to me,
pets are designed to get hit, and get hit a lot.  He's a better tank
than many of the tanks I group with, not to mention utterly disposable.
 Save him from two hits?  Whats the point?  I'm thinking the point is
to use him to absorb Harm Touch hits... which I do anyway, so far the
most he's taken has been 20% of his HP bar in one pop.  Waste  a spell
slot and mana to save him from one little 20% blow, plus the next hit
which will be for more like 2%?  If I wanted something in this line at
all, seems to me it would be the one that absorbs One hit, the second
hit won't also be a HT after all.  Could I cycle thru this spell as an
ongoing damage absorber, like enchanters do with their runes?  I suppose
so, but again, its only soaking two hits, something thats damaging my
pet appreciably with each individual blow is also going to be landing a
-lot- of blows.  I'd think I'd be better off chaining heals along with
Primal Remedy.  LDoN points only, and I don't even know which dungeon,
certainly hasn't apppeared on the buy list yet in any of the ones I've
done (none over 230 points)

Reflect.  Chance to resist spell plus hit caster with 40% of the spell
effect if applicable.  OK, I don't get hit with spells much.  But I
guess this might be useful in an AE environment.  I think I recall
seeing that its duration was very short, though, on the order of 10
seconds... I'll have to look this up sometime, but at the moment my
interest in the line is low... I didn't buy Bounce and don't plan to
pursue this one either unless someone reports its a lot more useful than
I think it is.  LDoN points, in some unidentified dungeon, like Guard of
Calliav above.

This leaves the spell I really wanted out of this level; Transon's
Phantasmal Protection.  Self only buff, raises my AC (like I care),
gives me 5 hp per tic regen (this is exciting, especially solo I rely on
hp regen a lot) and 4 mana per tic mana regen.  Very exciting part; no
more cats eye agate use!  The previous spell in the line used 4 agates
at a time, meaning I'd go thru stacks of them almost as fast as stacks
of malachite.  Also exciting, 2 hour 30 minute duration, and thats
without extended buff item, which of course I always have since its
summoned.  Whats wrong with it?  Well, like all spells in this line, it
conflicts with AC buffs.  Not that I want AC buffs, AC is utterly
meaningless to me since my AC is so low, another 100 points (and there
is no AC buff that big) wouldn't mean beans in terms of my survival
abilities.  But Temperance, Aego, and Virtue all Include the AC part,
which means no long duration high HP buffs for me with this up.  And of
course clerics love to cast the group versions of this line, which means
clicking it off and recasting TPP (so much for the 2 hour 30 minute
duration!).  But no problem, you think; any sensible caster wants POTC+
and Symbol anyway.  Guess what else this spell conflicts with?  Yep, up
till now, self regen buff plus POT9 plus Symbol was the ultimate way to
go... but suddenly I have to chose between HP regen and some mana regen,
or more mana regen but no HP regen.

Don't get me wrong, I still like TPP and am glad to finally have it...
but I'm annoyed that its overwritten by buffs I'll never want (temp,
aego, virtue) and even more annoyed that its overwritten by buffs I'll
never ever ever want (cleric today cast Shield of Words on me since I
said I didn't want Temp!... level 49 spell of utter uselessness
overwrites level 58 spell with mana -and- hp regen, and just as much AC,
which is a meaningless stat to a mage anyway? Where's the sense in
that?).  And even More annoyed that suddenly a line I didn't conflict
with now does, so I have to A) take POTC+ and lose HP regen, B) ditch
POTCabbage+ and sacricice some of the mana regen in order to keep HP
regen or C) take Cabbage+ and use my old less HP regen cats eye agate
eating level 54 self buff instead.  Hmm, or D) take SLN for HP regen and
keep TPP... whats the duration on SLN?

Ah well, wonder what spells I can gripe about at 59?

Splendid One, 58 Gnomage, Firiona Vie
Paul Botts - 16 Dec 2003 18:26 GMT
> Guard of Calliav.  Sort of a rune for pets, keeps the first two hits on
> him from doing any damage.  This line seems surpassingly silly to me,

Yea that's what beastlords have all concluded. And since run3 makes Shrew
close to irrelevant, the effect is that there aren't any LDoN spells worth
my bothering with.

--
=====
Baron Haabbes Ticklemaabbes, 61 vah shir Beastlord,
Saryrn server.    paulbotts(at)sbcglobal.netnospam
James Grahame - 16 Dec 2003 18:57 GMT
> Guard of Calliav.  Sort of a rune for pets, keeps the first two hits on
> him from doing any damage.  This line seems surpassingly silly to me,
> pets are designed to get hit, and get hit a lot.  He's a better tank
> than many of the tanks I group with, not to mention utterly disposable.
> Save him from two hits?  Whats the point?

   That's any two hits. So, for example, when you're doing that mob with
the brutal AE damage spell, Jobober ignores the first two AE's and you don't
build additional hate healing Jobober early (since nobody else will heal a
pet).

> Could I cycle thru this spell as an
> ongoing damage absorber, like enchanters do with their runes?

   Recast and mana allowing, yes. You'd need to compare how much mana it
takes to heal the pet for the expected damage with how much mana you use on
Calliav to see if it's worthwhile, though.

> LDoN points only, and I don't even know which dungeon,
> certainly hasn't apppeared on the buy list yet in any of the ones I've
> done (none over 230 points)

   Using the LDoN database at www.squidbox.com, I see Guard of Calliav is a
450 point spell in the Mistmoore theme.

> Reflect.  Chance to resist spell plus hit caster with 40% of the spell
> effect if applicable.  OK, I don't get hit with spells much.  But I
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I think it is.  LDoN points, in some unidentified dungeon, like Guard of
> Calliav above.

   Same database: 410 points, Guk theme.

   James
Jamie Norwood - 16 Dec 2003 19:11 GMT
on Tue, 16 Dec 2003 18:57:59 GMT, James Grahame stated:

>> Guard of Calliav.  Sort of a rune for pets, keeps the first two hits on
>> him from doing any damage.  This line seems surpassingly silly to me,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> build additional hate healing Jobober early (since nobody else will heal a
> pet).

Healing pets doesn't raise hate anyway. :)

>     James

Jamie
Sean Kennedy - 16 Dec 2003 23:33 GMT
>> Guard of Calliav.  Sort of a rune for pets, keeps the first two hits
>> on him from doing any damage.  This line seems surpassingly silly to
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> takes to heal the pet for the expected damage with how much mana you
> use on Calliav to see if it's worthwhile, though.

Healing pets doesn't generate hate anyway.

Besides, in situations where this is actually useful you're just going
to let him die then pop the 2nd one you have suspended.

If I had the spell (I don't yet) I'd buff a pet with it (and BOV and
a couple others) suspend it, then bring up another pet and do the
same.  Now I have enough pet survivability to make it through
shorter fights without wasting mana on heals.

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James Grahame - 17 Dec 2003 01:53 GMT
> > the brutal AE damage spell, Jobober ignores the first two AE's and you
> > don't build additional hate healing Jobober early (since nobody else
> > will heal a pet).
>
> Healing pets doesn't generate hate anyway.

   This didn't get changed when they made the changes to charmed pets? I
know if I heal a charmed pet the mob that's beating on the charmed pet gets
mighty upset.

   James
Sean Kennedy - 17 Dec 2003 03:36 GMT
>> > the brutal AE damage spell, Jobober ignores the first two AE's and
>> > you don't build additional hate healing Jobober early (since nobody
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>     James

You can heal a summoned pet all day long IME.

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Sean Kennedy - 17 Dec 2003 03:47 GMT
> You can heal a summoned pet all day long IME.

That should read "You cn heal a summoned pet all day
long without pulling aggro, IME"

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Lance Berg - 17 Dec 2003 12:40 GMT
>>You can heal a summoned pet all day long IME.
>
> That should read "You cn heal a summoned pet all day
> long without pulling aggro, IME"

I've pulled adds onto myself by healing my pet.  But only very early in
the fight.  The pet, at that point, hasn't had much chance at all to
aggro the adds, they are only fighting him because he's fighting their
buddy.

I'd estimate healing pet to be about the same aggro as casting cancel
magic on the adds.

Sitting is more dangerous than healing pet, even under these circumstances.

Splendid
Lewzephyr - 22 Dec 2003 19:03 GMT
>>> Guard of Calliav.  Sort of a rune for pets, keeps the first two hits
>>> on him from doing any damage.  This line seems surpassingly silly to
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
>Healing pets doesn't generate hate anyway.

are you sure?,
I could of sworn that while soloing with my beastlord and I use my
big pet heal (something like 1600 HP) I have gained aggro from the pet
when mob was not next to me.... mob left pet and came right for me
when heal landed...
Id say it doesnt happen alot, but it has happened to me on several
occasions.    There is always the chance that the DoT that I had on
the mob, out aggroed the pet at the same time I cast... but again this
would have to occure on several different occasions.
Sean Kennedy - 22 Dec 2003 19:29 GMT
>>>> Guard of Calliav.  Sort of a rune for pets, keeps the first two hits
>>>> on him from doing any damage.  This line seems surpassingly silly to
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> the mob, out aggroed the pet at the same time I cast... but again this
> would have to occure on several different occasions.

Well - here's my relevant experience:
2 boxing mage/cleric

Pull mob and send pet in.
CH pet with cleric (at what % depends on mob)
Immediately sit cleric down, having healed 4k+
No aggro - ever.

Mage gets tagged
Cleric tosses supernal remedy his way - sits *SMACK*
he gets hit.

I'd say you got aggro as a combination of slow (high aggro),
and dots (high aggro).
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1 - 23 Dec 2003 12:37 GMT
"Sean Kennedy" <x@n.n> wrote in message > Well - here's my relevant
experience:
> 2 boxing mage/cleric
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> --
> Arch Convoker Mairelon Snapbang of Lanys T'vyl

I have had aggro as a beastlord healing my pet without having any active DOT
or slow on the enemy mob before. I don't know if this was a fluke but it's
happened more than once to me. Maybe the situation is different when the pet
is yours as in your example the cleric is healing the mage's pet and this
may not generate aggro wheras ( potentially ) a beastlord healing his / her
own pet may generate aggro. Any other Beastlords have similar / opposing
experiences?
James Grahame - 29 Dec 2003 19:46 GMT
> Well - here's my relevant experience:
> 2 boxing mage/cleric
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Cleric tosses supernal remedy his way - sits *SMACK*
> he gets hit.

   My experience is something like this:

   Pet is offtanking.
   Cleric (me) heals it once or twice.
   Pet dies, mob beelines me, can't be pried off me with a crowbar.

   So there's hate there. Might be that the healer doesn't get hit with it
until the pet is gone, but it's there.

   James
Sean Kennedy - 30 Dec 2003 01:45 GMT
>> Well - here's my relevant experience:
>> 2 boxing mage/cleric
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
>     James

Is the mage not nuking?

I'm trying to remember what happened the couple times I mistimed the heal -
but I think it went for me.  However, I'd pumped 10k worth of nukes into
it's a.s at the point too.

(sorry, that's not clear:  Two boxing cleric/mage)
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James Grahame - 30 Dec 2003 18:45 GMT
> >     My experience is something like this:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Is the mage not nuking?

   No, he's assisting on the main mob. The pet is offtanking. With Enrage,
they make good speedbumps. ;-) The key point, for me, is that the offtanked
mob sticks to me like glue. That indicates (I think) that I built up a good
load of hate by healing the pet.

   James
Sean Kennedy - 30 Dec 2003 19:23 GMT
>> >     My experience is something like this:
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>     James

Ok - new data that support your thesis.  (Either things have changed
since I did a lot of pet healing, or there are other factors).

Today I was using my BL pet to off tank adds in a 4 person group.
We got 4 in the PoI Factory and, even though I knew we were dead, I
peeled one off with the pets (mage and BL pet - bl pet can consistently
take aggro from the air pet on mobs its proc lands on) - tossed
a pet heal at the warder and got the 2 unhit adds on me, and away  
from the warrior, just as though I were a healer and had healed a PC.

So:

Datum 1:  With a cleric/mage duo, cleric CH'ing pet, mage nuking
moderately - the cleric could sit immediately and not get hit.

Datum 2:  With a warrior, cleric, BL, mage group - warrior actively
tanking one mob, pet actively tanking another - BL pet heal pulled
aggro on the untanked mobs.

Questions - Have the rules changed since I used to do 1?  (A long time
ago, because in PoP a mage has to chain to have a prayer of holding
a mob off)  Or are these two situations not mutually exclusive?  

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Lance Berg - 25 Dec 2003 01:10 GMT
>>Guard of Calliav.  Sort of a rune for pets, keeps the first two hits on
>>him from doing any damage.  This line seems surpassingly silly to me,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> build additional hate healing Jobober early (since nobody else will heal a
> pet).

Pet healing aggro is vanishingly small.  Only thing I've ever gotten
aggro on by healing a pet were adds when I was soloing.. and even that,
only early on, when the pet had not yet sufficiently annoyed the other
mobs attacking him.

But I guess when the AE damage is the only thing he's taking, and its
very large, ignoring a couple hits would make a lot of difference, and I
could reapply the guard so as to avoid the next one.  With some mobs,
this only hits once every 30 seconds, predicatably, so Guard would be a
full minute worth of AE protection... if its duration is that long.

>>Could I cycle thru this spell as an
>>ongoing damage absorber, like enchanters do with their runes?
>
>     Recast and mana allowing, yes. You'd need to compare how much mana it
> takes to heal the pet for the expected damage with how much mana you use on
> Calliav to see if it's worthwhile, though.

If we are talking about something that would flat out kill him when it
hit, and is infreqent but cyclical, it would probably be worthwhile.
People rarely heal pets, saving the mana for PC's, I find, unless its
-me- healing my own pet.

>>LDoN points only, and I don't even know which dungeon,
>>certainly hasn't apppeared on the buy list yet in any of the ones I've
>>done (none over 230 points)
>
>     Using the LDoN database at www.squidbox.com, I see Guard of Calliav is a
> 450 point spell in the Mistmoore theme.

Ick, more points than I have in any line!

>>Reflect.  Chance to resist spell plus hit caster with 40% of the spell
>>effect if applicable.  OK, I don't get hit with spells much.  But I
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>     Same database: 410 points, Guk theme.

Same complaint.  I did about 50% LDoN thru level 55, then cut down to
where I spend about 10% of my time in LDoNs.  Thats a lot of points to
someone my level, where I'm seeing 22 points or so per success.  And
I've never done a single Guk mission, pass -nor- fail.

Splendid
James Grahame - 29 Dec 2003 19:35 GMT
> Same complaint.  I did about 50% LDoN thru level 55, then cut down to
> where I spend about 10% of my time in LDoNs.  Thats a lot of points to
> someone my level, where I'm seeing 22 points or so per success.  And
> I've never done a single Guk mission, pass -nor- fail.

   You aren't alone. Start a level 1 character on your server if you have a
character slot available, do alt-v, look at your statistics. You should see
what place you are in per theme. That tells you how many characters have at
least one win in that theme. The numbers are very interesting, at least on
my server. For every 1 person that has won at least once in Guk on my
server, 2 have won in Tak or Rujark or Miragul's, and 4 have won in
Mistmoore.

   James
Frank E - 16 Dec 2003 19:17 GMT
rOn Tue, 16 Dec 2003 14:59:10 GMT, Lance Berg <emporer@dejazzd.com>
wrote:

>Malosini.  Another in the Malo line, still not unresistable.  Two more
>levels I get the unresistable one.  I question the need for this one, I
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>I'll use Malosini instead of Malosi, but I bet I keep casting Malaise
>more than either.

The big advantage of malosini is it's instant recast. This is from a
shaman perspective but on tough mobs where you really couldn't afford
to get agro on a slow resist, chaining -sini till it landed then
slowing was often the best plan.

>Velocity... can't find in bazaar so far.  SOW for my pet.  Maybe he'll
>be able to keep up with me, Expedience isn't fast enough for run 3.  I
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>pets are designed to get hit, and get hit a lot.  He's a better tank
>than many of the tanks I group with, not to mention utterly disposable.

You really need to find some better tanks to group with, mage pets are
nice but they ain't that nice.

>And even More annoyed that suddenly a line I didn't conflict
>with now does, so I have to A) take POTC+ and lose HP regen, B) ditch
>POTCabbage+ and sacricice some of the mana regen in order to keep HP
>regen or C) take Cabbage+ and use my old less HP regen cats eye agate
>eating level 54 self buff instead.  Hmm, or D) take SLN for HP regen and
>keep TPP... whats the duration on SLN?

A druid of that lvl will have at least a 15 pt group regen to go along
with Cabbage.

Rgds, Frank
Lance Berg - 16 Dec 2003 23:00 GMT
> rOn Tue, 16 Dec 2003 14:59:10 GMT, Lance Berg <emporer@dejazzd.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
> A druid of that lvl will have at least a 15 pt group regen to go along
> with Cabbage.

A) up till now, my HP regen line stacked with cabbage -and- regrowth (et
al).

B) Even now, my hp+mana regen line stacks with regrowth line

C) Regrowth lasts a few minutes, so if the druid isn't coming along for
the ride, its not really important.  Buffs that last an hour+ are
interesting in all circumstances, buffs that last under 10 minutes are
only of interest in a group situation, and even then must be considered
carefully for cost effectiveness.  If you can cast it before going in to
an LDoN, then med to full, and expect it to last the whole mission, then
cost effectiveness isn't a question.

Splendid
Frank E - 17 Dec 2003 16:08 GMT
>C) Regrowth lasts a few minutes, so if the druid isn't coming along for
>the ride, its not really important.  Buffs that last an hour+ are
>interesting in all circumstances, buffs that last under 10 minutes are
>only of interest in a group situation, and even then must be considered
>carefully for cost effectiveness

True. I was thinking of a grouping situation where the extra regen is
relatively small compared to regrowth/replenishment.

Rgds, Frank
Andy Pear - 16 Dec 2003 21:28 GMT
> Oooh, 58.
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> mage is going to use this thing in a group!  I paid 50pp for this spell,
> which in my opinion was high, but I do like a full book.

I went on a pet-only dungeon and one of the mages cast the lvl 63 version of
this.  I wasn't going to tell the guy how to play his character, but I
wondered WTF he was thinking.  Beyond the fact that these pets are loose
cannons, they blow their mana very quickly, even with Kindle, and then start
meleeing for insanely low DPS.  He changed to Ward of Xegony pretty quickly,
which was a good thing.

> Malosini.  Another in the Malo line, still not unresistable.  Two more
> levels I get the unresistable one.  I question the need for this one, I
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> I'll use Malosini instead of Malosi, but I bet I keep casting Malaise
> more than either.

The good thing about Malosini compared to Malosi is its fast cast time and
shorter recast time (I think).  When I have malise duty, the quicker the mob
can be debuffed, the quicker the Shammy can slow. If the low level versions
of the Mal line are working for you, great.  I may give it a go myself that
way.  I hoped that the higher levels of the spell would lessen the resists,
but Malosini still gets stuck back in my face alot.

> Reflect.  Chance to resist spell plus hit caster with 40% of the spell
> effect if applicable.  OK, I don't get hit with spells much.  But I
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I think it is.  LDoN points, in some unidentified dungeon, like Guard of
> Calliav above.

I've been getting mezzed so often in LDoN that this spell looks a bit
tempting.  However, the duration is so short that it seems difficult to make
use of.  Maybe I can just cast it everytime I see one of those winged lion
things in Miragul's Menagerie.

> This leaves the spell I really wanted out of this level; Transon's
> Phantasmal Protection.  Self only buff, raises my AC (like I care),
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> go... but suddenly I have to chose between HP regen and some mana regen,
> or more mana regen but no HP regen.

One of the people in my normal group has a high level Cleric and Chanter for
buffing and we get virtue and c5 before every dungeon when this guy is
along.  I could swear that my TPP stacks with both, but not the Druid hp and
mana regen buffs.  I'll have to look more closely next adventure.  One thing
that does seem to stack with Virtue is the shielding line.  I have tended to
dismiss it as inconsequential, but given that it has a MR component, I cast
it on myself before the last couple of dungeons and will continue to do so.

> Ah well, wonder what spells I can gripe about at 59?

59 spells -
Great Voc - Air.  About what you'd expect - the next level of air pet.  A
nice upgrade to the 53 pet, but it's not earth shaking.

Seeking Flame.  A nice increase in DD potential, particularly with the focus
bracelet, although it is a LoS spell.  The real prize is Firebolt of Tallon
at 61.  500 mana gets you 2000 damage.  I became a DPS machine for the LDoN
encounters where I made a committment to casting FBoT.  The downside is that
I can't malise and cast this spell consistently and the Paladin has to
really be casting his stuns to keep me from getting aggro.

Valiant Companion - I needed this several levels before 59 when I was
camping gnolls and the necros would fear my pet.  I haven't run into many
mobs that cast fear lately, but this is probably a godsend for players in
high level Boss encounters.

ManaStorm - I've gotten shy about AoE's in LDoN.  I guess the mana drain
component would be nice, although I've read that the mana drain component
causes each wave to make two resist checks instead of one.  At 61, my rain
of choice is still Sirocco.  The extra potential damage from Manastorm and
Maelstrom of Thunder don't seem to make up for their increased mana cost.

> Splendid One, 58 Gnomage, Firiona Vie
Sean Kennedy - 16 Dec 2003 23:39 GMT
> I went on a pet-only dungeon and one of the mages cast the lvl 63
> version of this.  I wasn't going to tell the guy how to play his
> character, but I wondered WTF he was thinking.  Beyond the fact that
> these pets are loose cannons, they blow their mana very quickly, even
> with Kindle, and then start meleeing for insanely low DPS.  He changed
> to Ward of Xegony pretty quickly, which was a good thing.

We have a guild mage who seems to think there's some use to this thing
beyond duels - and trys to use it in raids (!).

> One of the people in my normal group has a high level Cleric and
> Chanter for buffing and we get virtue and c5 before every dungeon when
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> given that it has a MR component, I cast it on myself before the last
> couple of dungeons and will continue to do so.

The only thing I have overwrite TPP/XPG is PoT9 line.

> 59 spells -
> Great Voc - Air.  About what you'd expect - the next level of air pet.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> many mobs that cast fear lately, but this is probably a godsend for
> players in high level Boss encounters.

Absolutely useless for 61+ players.  All 61+ pets are level 60 and
innately unfearable.

The only time I've seen my 61+ pets run is when it was tanking
black reavers and would be blinded and knocked out of melee range
(or knock the BR out of melee range).

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Lance Berg - 17 Dec 2003 13:20 GMT
> The only thing I have overwrite TPP/XPG is PoT9 line.

I cast TPP on myself, and then grouped up for an LDoN, specifically
instructed the cleric NOT to temp me (but I'd be happy to get Heroism
and a symbol).  A while later, I looked at my buffs (group was buff mad,
and I was having to click off crap like Acumen in order to make room for
stuff I wanted) and discovered Shield of Words, and no TPP.  (Oh, and as
a bonus, no symbol.  Asked the cleric, and he said he thought that Temp
was the only thing I didn't want!)

TPP duration certainly hadn't expired on its own, only ten minutes or so
into its 2 hour 30 minute (assuming I'd cast it without my silken mantle
on) duration.

I killed SoWords and cast TPP and it stuck.

So I'm 99% certain it doesn't stack with SoWords (its vaguely possible
that my cat reached out and played with my mouse while I wasn't looking
and clicked it off to annoy me)

If it doesn't stack with SoWords, I'd be very surprised to see it
stacking with Temp or Aego or Virtue, which include an AC component and
do not stack with SoWords, or with Phantasmal Armor, Phantasmal Plate,
Phantasmal Leather, or Phantasmal Chain

Its possible, it would be delightful, but I find it highly unlikely.
Will cost me 10pp to find out, I guess.

Splendid One, 58 Gnomage, Firiona Vie
Sean Kennedy - 17 Dec 2003 14:52 GMT
>> The only thing I have overwrite TPP/XPG is PoT9 line.
>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Splendid One, 58 Gnomage, Firiona Vie

I've had that combo so often I can't count.  While grouping my BL and
mage to level the BL I log on a 65 cleric and virtue us - and keep XPG up
as well.

Consider the data from lucy at the bottom of this post.  The phantom armor
line up to the 54 one have AC in slot 4 and it is lower than the AC from
ShoW in the same slot, which is why ShoW overwrote it.

TPP/XPG do *not* have an ac component.  In fact they have no shared effect
with temp/aego/virtue.

I've never tried to have ShoW with TPP/XPG, but I don't see why it would
overwrite as there are no common effects to cause it to.

ShoW is
4:  increase AC by 31

Phantom Armor (52)
2:  Increase Hitpoints by 5 per tick
4:  Increase AC by 21 (L52) to 22 (L60)

Phantasmal Armor
2:  Increase Hitpoints by 5 per tick
4:  Increase AC by 21 (L54) to 22 (L60)

TPP is
2:  Increase Hitpoints by 5 per tick
4:  Increase Mana by 4 per tick
8:  Increase AC by 23 (L58) to 25 (L65)

XPG is
2:  Increase Hitpoints by 5 per tick
4:  Increase Mana by 6 per tick
8:  Increase AC by 40 (L62) to 42 (L65)

Temp is
1:  Stacking: Block new spell if slot 3 is effect 'Max Hitpoints' and <
1100
2:  Increase Max Hitpoints by 800
3:  Increase HP when cast by 800
4:  Increase AC by 48
5:  Stacking: Overwrite existing spell if slot 3 is effect 'Max Hitpoints'
and < 1100

Aego is
1:  Stacking: Block new spell if slot 3 is effect 'Max Hitpoints' and <
1100
2:  Increase Max Hitpoints by 1100
3:  Increase HP when cast by 1100
4:  Increase AC by 54
5:  Stacking: Overwrite existing spell if slot 3 is effect 'Max Hitpoints'
and < 1100

Virtue is
1:  Stacking: Block new spell if slot 3 is effect 'Max Hitpoints' and <
1405
2:  Increase Max Hitpoints by 1405
3:  Increase HP when cast by 1405
4:  Increase AC by 72
5:  Stacking: Overwrite existing spell if slot 3 is effect 'Max Hitpoints'
and < 1405

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Sean Kennedy - 17 Dec 2003 14:59 GMT

> TPP/XPG do *not* have an ac component.  In fact they have no shared
> effect with temp/aego/virtue.

TPP/XPG do *not* have an ac component in slot 4.  They have no shared
effect in the same slot.

<sigh>

> I've never tried to have ShoW with TPP/XPG, but I don't see why it
> would overwrite as there are no common effects to cause it to.

That should read "There is no common effect in the same slot to
cause it not too"  Too early to do any analysis atm.

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Lance Berg - 17 Dec 2003 15:41 GMT
>>>The only thing I have overwrite TPP/XPG is PoT9 line.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
> 2:  Increase Hitpoints by 5 per tick
> 4:  Increase AC by 21 (L54) to 22 (L60)

> TPP is
> 2:  Increase Hitpoints by 5 per tick
> 4:  Increase Mana by 4 per tick
> 8:  Increase AC by 23 (L58) to 25 (L65)

TPP clearly -does- have a AC component, you  even say so here.

However, it doesnt' have the AC in slot 4, its in slot 8.  This could
allow it to stack with the temp line which has its AC in slot 4... but
leaves me with the mystery of why ShoW seemed to overwrite TPP, when it
too has its  AC in slot 4.

I'd also suggest to the game designers that the AC in the whole phantom
armor line -all- be moved to slot 8, consistant with TPP and allowing
mages the benefits of their self buffs without losing the Temperance +
lines that other classes have access to.

But since thats low level class balancing, I dont expect anything to
come of the idea.

I'm going to find a cleric and do some testing here later today, I'm
very glad to hear that this seems to work, although frankly I'd still
rather have POT9 than Virtue, there are tons of Virtue casters out there
(more than KEI vendors sometimes it seems) and being able to have my HP
regen while wearing Virtue HP will be a treat, with the mana regen on
top of it as a bonus.

Splendid One, 58 Gnomage, Firiona Vie
Sean Kennedy - 17 Dec 2003 16:04 GMT
> TPP clearly -does- have a AC component, you  even say so here.
>
> However, it doesnt' have the AC in slot 4, its in slot 8.  This could
> allow it to stack with the temp line which has its AC in slot 4... but
> leaves me with the mystery of why ShoW seemed to overwrite TPP, when
> it too has its  AC in slot 4.

See my follow up to my own post - I was thinking one thing and wrote
it wrong <sigh>

> I'd also suggest to the game designers that the AC in the whole
> phantom armor line -all- be moved to slot 8, consistant with TPP and
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Splendid One, 58 Gnomage, Firiona Vie

I vastly prefer Kazad/PoT9 (my usual group has the 65 cleric and a 65
druid), but for soloing it's easier to set up virtue/xpg as I have
access to all the necessary characters.

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Lance Berg - 17 Dec 2003 13:02 GMT
>>Oooh, 58.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> meleeing for insanely low DPS.  He changed to Ward of Xegony pretty quickly,
> which was a good thing.

Don't they have the best DS in the game, though?  If his pet was to be
MA while the rest of the group used more damage oriented pets, this
might have been a good plan... and you'd -want- the pet to go OOM so
he'd stop screwing up mob positioning and the like.   If there was ever
a spell I plan to avoid ever casting, its Kindle.  Now if there was a
Dampen, that sucked pet mana away so he'd shut up and melee like a good
little decoy, that I'd be happy to cast!

> The good thing about Malosini compared to Malosi is its fast cast time and
> shorter recast time (I think).  When I have malise duty, the quicker the mob
> can be debuffed, the quicker the Shammy can slow. If the low level versions
> of the Mal line are working for you, great.  I may give it a go myself that
> way.  I hoped that the higher levels of the spell would lessen the resists,
> but Malosini still gets stuck back in my face alot.

I have noticed that the recast time of malaise is a bit annoying on a
fail, and seeing a resist message followed by shaman spamming a "slow
resisted" message is annoying, while I watch the greyed out malaise and
consider memming a second in the line for such occaisions.  Faster
recast time might make me bump Malaise out at last, which after 49
levels of nearly always sitting in slot one is going to be a pretty
weird thing.

>>Reflect.  Chance to resist spell plus hit caster with 40% of the spell

> I've been getting mezzed so often in LDoN that this spell looks a bit
> tempting.  However, the duration is so short that it seems difficult to make
> use of.  Maybe I can just cast it everytime I see one of those winged lion
> things in Miragul's Menagerie.

Aye, if it had a 10 minute duration or something it would be a lot more
tempting.  But considering that it costs more points than I currently
have available, and a higher point limit than I have in Any dungeon
theme, I imagine it will be quite a while before I bother with it.

>>This leaves the spell I really wanted out of this level; Transon's
>>Phantasmal Protection.  Self only buff, raises my AC (like I care),
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> dismiss it as inconsequential, but given that it has a MR component, I cast
> it on myself before the last couple of dungeons and will continue to do so.

Well, I can say for certain that the Phantasmal Armor and previous
spells do NOT cast with Virtue, Temp, or Aego.  And I can say for
certain that Shield of Words (49 cleric AC buff) overwrites TPP.  I can
only surmise that TPP is also overwritten by Virtue, Temp, and Aego,
because thus far I've successfully avoided having anyone cast one of the
big three on me since getting TPP.

I can't think of many circumstances in which I'll want Virtue et al; if
I'm giving up TPP its because POTC, POTG, POT9 or BOT9 are available,
and those too don't stack with the Virtue line.  So I'd only want Virtue
in situations where my max HP is more important than my hp and mana
regen.  And in those circumstances, I'd hope that there would be a druid
available, in which case I still wouldn't want Virtue, as POT9 plus
symbol of Khazad is actually More hp than virtue, and wouldn't deny me
mana regen.

The shielding line is far from inconsequential, my current one is good
for 244 hp and 23 MR, both substantial boosts given the abyssimal state
of mage HP bars.  It does not stack with the Focus line, though, and
depending on how important MR is in a given encounter, Focus line may
well yeild even more HP.  Interesting, though, is that the spell
Infusion of Spirit (IOS) -does- stack with the Shielding line; this is a
61 beastlord buff thats available to shaman at 49 (though few have it),
and the HP you get from IOS plus shielding is superior to what you gain
from HOS.  This probably stops being true with level 60+ shaman buffs,
since there seems to be no upgrade to IOS; I haven't done the math.

For even more HP, get the Stamina line from shaman (stacks with IOS, not
sure if it does with HOS since I normally don't get HOS)  Oh, and
there's the Brell's line from paladins, that seems to stack with all of
the above too.

Splendid One, 58 Gnomage, Firiona Vie

>>Ah well, wonder what spells I can gripe about at 59?
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
>>Splendid One, 58 Gnomage, Firiona Vie
Lance Berg - 17 Dec 2003 13:13 GMT
> "Lance Berg" <emporer@dejazzd.com> wrote in message

>>Ah well, wonder what spells I can gripe about at 59?
>
> 59 spells -
> Great Voc - Air.  About what you'd expect - the next level of air pet.  A
> nice upgrade to the 53 pet, but it's not earth shaking.

Not earth shaking? Assuming it does melee like the 57 earth pet, and
continues to stun, this will be a huge advance; in many groups I'm still
using the 53 pet, since the other pets I've gotten in between either A)
root, which annoys many people, B) is only advantageous in the rear
position, which most groups don't seem to set up consistantly, C) is
only good when being hit [decoy] D) is rediculous fire pet.  Air pets
stun is a bonus, but frankly just the melee damage upgrade to GV levels
without the damned Root thing going on would be reason enough to cheer.

> Seeking Flame.  A nice increase in DD potential, particularly with the focus
> bracelet, although it is a LoS spell.  The real prize is Firebolt of Tallon
> at 61.  500 mana gets you 2000 damage.  I became a DPS machine for the LDoN
> encounters where I made a committment to casting FBoT.  The downside is that
> I can't malise and cast this spell consistently and the Paladin has to
> really be casting his stuns to keep me from getting aggro.

LOS spells are annoying in the sorts of groups I'm usually in, and I'm
specialized in Conjuration (something I may regret if they kill pet
canni, as rumored), so I imagine I'll be using Shock of Steel more than
this, although I haven't done the math on it.  I did use Scars of Sigil
extensively in some cases before getting Shock of Steel, though, so I'll
have to do the math on Seeking Flame.

> Valiant Companion - I needed this several levels before 59 when I was
> camping gnolls and the necros would fear my pet.  I haven't run into many
> mobs that cast fear lately, but this is probably a godsend for players in
> high level Boss encounters.

I've heard that high level mage pets are immune to fear without this,
but it might be handy for a couple levels, especially if circumstances
warrant that I use a lower level pet in order to get root or stun or
backstab or DS.

> ManaStorm - I've gotten shy about AoE's in LDoN.  I guess the mana drain
> component would be nice, although I've read that the mana drain component
> causes each wave to make two resist checks instead of one.  At 61, my rain
> of choice is still Sirocco.  The extra potential damage from Manastorm and
> Maelstrom of Thunder don't seem to make up for their increased mana cost.

I've rarely used rains or any sort of AE, the mana drain part is the
only thing that makes me curious about this one; I know there are
encounters where bards and enchanters are very important for their
ability to reduce the mana of the target, might be handy to add mages to
that list... but we can't do so while the target is mezzed prior to
engaging, since the rains will break mez.  Would be more interesting if
this was a zero damage rain!

Splendid One, 58 Gnomage, Firiona Vie
Sean Kennedy - 16 Dec 2003 23:30 GMT
> Oooh, 58.
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> mage is going to use this thing in a group!  I paid 50pp for this spell,
> which in my opinion was high, but I do like a full book.

People couldn't pay me to take this pet (ok, I suppose I'd take a free
copy of 63 fire on the off chance I might duel someone, sometime).

> Malosini.  Another in the Malo line, still not unresistable.  Two more
> levels I get the unresistable one.  I question the need for this one, I
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> I'll use Malosini instead of Malosi, but I bet I keep casting Malaise
> more than either.

I vastly prefer Malosini to the earlier spells in the line, quick casting
and a very fast recast.  Yes, against MR mobs it's a pain - but, since it
drops all resists but disease, it is VERY useful to set up other nuke
lines.

> Velocity... can't find in bazaar so far.  SOW for my pet.  Maybe he'll
> be able to keep up with me, Expedience isn't fast enough for run 3.  I
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> duration; having to swap in Expedience to cast it is part of what keeps
> me from bothering.

Haven't expedienced my pet in ages.  Never bothered with velocity - too
much money, too little benefit.

> This leaves the spell I really wanted out of this level; Transon's
> Phantasmal Protection.  Self only buff, raises my AC (like I care),
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> go... but suddenly I have to chose between HP regen and some mana regen,
> or more mana regen but no HP regen.

Double check lucy - TPP/XPG don't stack with PoTC/PoT9 line, they do
stack with Temp,Aego,Virtue.  When I don't have a druid in the group
(rare) I use Virt/XPG - when I do I use PoT9/Kazad.

> Don't get me wrong, I still like TPP and am glad to finally have it...
> but I'm annoyed that its overwritten by buffs I'll never want (temp,
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Splendid One, 58 Gnomage, Firiona Vie

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