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Game Forum / Role Playing Games / EverQuest / December 2006Everquest Impending Suicide
Heh heh nice subject huh? Just sent an email to EQCS asking them if they bothered to read the new petition feedback thread they started. Then asked them flat out if they are trying to kill EQ by drivign people away from it with all the bugs and unpopular changes. Then mentioned the WoW tv commercial and asked where the EQ:TSS one was. I also might have called Smedely a closet pedophile too. Doesn't matter though. Automated responder would have to be programmed and we all know that Soe couldn't program their way out of a wet paper bag. Nah I'm not bitter. Just wasted a good 2 years and countless $$$ on the game. > Nah I'm not bitter. Just wasted a good 2 years and countless $$$ on > the game. only 2 years? you're still a newb compared to me. >> Nah I'm not bitter. Just wasted a good 2 years and countless $$$ on >> the game. > >only 2 years? you're still a newb compared to me. lol... no sh.t. Two years, what a seasoned veteran. > Heh heh nice subject huh? > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Nah I'm not bitter. Just wasted a good 2 years and countless $$$ on > the game. EQ is probably a much better game that it was before 2 years ago (POP-OOW era). I think the devs learned a lesson when the subscription base took a massive hit when WOW came out, and have been working since to make EQ more fun, but unfortunately for SOE I doubt that many will return, despite Blizzards recent attempts to drive people away with the unpopular changes in WOW patch 2.0, in particular the disabing of many UI mods which removed much of the games micromanagement. >EQ is probably a much better game that it was before 2 years ago (POP-OOW >era). I think the devs learned a lesson when the subscription base took a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >WOW patch 2.0, in particular the disabing of many UI mods which removed much >of the games micromanagement. I just got into Wow (14 day trial) and am just learning the mechanics (talent builds and the like) so the changes shouldn't both me much as I'll probally die just as much as I did before. :) Its pissed off the veterans of Wow just like some of Soe's decisions with EQ vets. Its a pity companies can't leave what works alone and fix whats broken. Of course that means no $$$ brought in for the newest expansion. >>EQ is probably a much better game that it was before 2 years ago (POP-OOW >>era). I think the devs learned a lesson when the subscription base took a [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > broken. Of course that means no $$$ brought in for the newest > expansion. For 98% of the WOW community these changes wont have any bearing, just the healers in raiding guilds. In a way you're lucky cos you will never have known thew simplicity and ease with which we could track the people who are damaged in raids and heal them. Now we will have to stare at 40 health bars and play whack a mole. Gonna be very mentally tiring and bad for the eyes. Blizzard will probably throw us a bone when half the healers quit and none of the guilds are able to raid anymore, but its anyones guess how long that cycle will take. >>>EQ is probably a much better game that it was before 2 years ago >>>(POP-OOW era). I think the devs learned a lesson when the [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > and heal them. Now we will have to stare at 40 health bars and play > whack a mole. Hmmm, you do know there is no such thing as a 40 man raid in TBC? And have you even looked at the new stuff coming out? > Gonna be very mentally tiring and bad for the eyes. > > Blizzard will probably throw us a bone when half the healers quit and > none of the guilds are able to raid anymore, but its anyones guess how > long that cycle will take. More predictions of doom and gloom that I'll wager 300g on Silver Hand (all I have on me at the moment) won't come true.  SignatureArch Convoker Mairelon Snapbang Feral Lord Bosra Snowclaw Lanys T'vyl (Retired) Mairelon, 60th Hunter Silver Hand FlexLite and WoWVoice, coming to a Beta Server near you soon. >>>>EQ is probably a much better game that it was before 2 years ago >>>>(POP-OOW era). I think the devs learned a lesson when the [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Hmmm, you do know there is no such thing as a 40 man raid in TBC? And > have you even looked at the new stuff coming out? Im aware that the largest instance in the expansion is 25 man, but they are patching these new UI changes well before the expansion, and there will still be 40 man raids for a variety of reasons. Even our high end guild will probably want to finish off our legendary staves which involves killing kel-thazud, and there will be call to farm sapphiron for the shoulder enchants. Having said all that too, staring at 25 health bars still wont be fun. >> Gonna be very mentally tiring and bad for the eyes. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > More predictions of doom and gloom that I'll wager 300g on Silver Hand > (all I have on me at the moment) won't come true. Wrong realm unfortunately, but Ill have a gentlemans bet that the majority of raiding guilds wont be able to raid after the patch because the healers spit the dummy. > Wrong realm unfortunately, but Ill have a gentlemans bet that the > majority of raiding guilds wont be able to raid after the patch > because the healers spit the dummy. Ok - you're on :) With one stipulation: All the healers are shown and given time to take advantage of mods like Clique, WoWVoice, PopRaid and are given a chance to see what Cide and TS have up their sleeves. Cide has been slaving away, btw, on a complete rewrite of huge portions of CT****. He gets a bit bleary in IRC sometimes. BTW - "spit the dummy" ? >> Wrong realm unfortunately, but Ill have a gentlemans bet that the >> majority of raiding guilds wont be able to raid after the patch [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > BTW - "spit the dummy" ? spit the dummy = suddenly quit and give up, usually with much frustration or anger. Maybe its just an Aussie expression. ]spit the dummy = suddenly quit and give up, usually with much frustration or ]anger. ]Maybe its just an Aussie expression. Hmm. I'm glad you explained that one. I saw it as the cleric accidently nuking the person they were trying to heal, spitting them on a sword, so to speak. JimP. Signaturehttp://www.linuxgazette.net/ Linux Gazette http://crestar.drivein-jim.net/ Nov 28, 2006 http://www.drivein-jim.net/ Jan 5, 2006: Drive-In movie theatres http://poetry.drivein-jim.net/ poetry blog July 26, 2006 >>>EQ is probably a much better game that it was before 2 years ago >>>(POP-OOW era). I think the devs learned a lesson when the [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > none of the guilds are able to raid anymore, but its anyones guess how > long that cycle will take. What kind of interface tools are so necessary for a WoW healer? I would think that the least UI-intensive class. SignatureRichard Carpenter "Write something worth reading, or do something worth writing." -- Benjamin Franklin >>>>EQ is probably a much better game that it was before 2 years ago >>>>(POP-OOW era). I think the devs learned a lesson when the [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > What kind of interface tools are so necessary for a WoW healer? I would > think that the least UI-intensive class. When theres 40 people in a raid, you need to be able to heal everyone, so that means with the standard UI) watching 40 health bars. Srure you can assign healers to groups, but other healers die, and some grups dont have healers, so in practice just watching your own group doesnt work. CTRA gives you an emergency monitor which is a small window with the most damaged people in it. Takes a bit of the concentration needed to stare at 40 health bars. Same for decursive, it picks a target and casts a decurse, rather than looking at 40 small windows for your raid and picking one with the curse icon and decursing them (then to maybe find they are out of range or line of sight). Neither are necessary, they just make it less of a headache, and thats one of the reasons people tend not to play healers and they are generally hard to find. I would imagine a pure dps class had the least need for addons. A hunter, or maybe rogue? I can see a lot of helers just giving up after this new patch. I know personally Im not going to bother trying to play whack a mole on 40 health bars, and then when people start dying (as they will) cos I missed someone, get cussed out for it. When a game ceases to be fun its time to stop. > When theres 40 people in a raid, you need to be able to heal everyone, so > that means with the standard UI) watching 40 health bars. Srure you can > assign healers to groups, but other healers die, and some grups dont have > healers, so in practice just watching your own group doesnt work. Wow, you've convinced me never to play WoW. I love running a healer in EQ1, I watch 1 or 2 sometimes 3 tanks, my group, and occasionally the enchanters too, and I don't have the option of having 40 health bars available. If Agro and damage in WoW is so screwed up that random people take damage, and they can't call for help, then no wonder the game is so screwed up. StanMann > > When theres 40 people in a raid, you need to be able to heal everyone, so > > that means with the standard UI) watching 40 health bars. Srure you can [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > StanMann Aggro and damage aren't that screwed up. There are times when a lot of people take damage, but that's what healing assignments are for. You don't just put 6 healers in a group and say "Heal everybody." Assignments are a part of strategy, which is a part of raiding. Unless you somehow end up being the only person able to heal or the only person able to decurse (which, seriously...will never happen), you won't be watching 40 bars. If you're doing that now, have a chat with your raid leader or healing leader and make assignments. I have shelved my healer (shaman), but when I was raiding with him I always had assignments of about 3-7 people to heal. That's a lot better than 40. Also, don't forget that raids are being knocked down to 25 people. >> When theres 40 people in a raid, you need to be able to heal everyone, so >> that means with the standard UI) watching 40 health bars. Srure you can [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >StanMann Trying to understand what you mean by "aggro and damage are so screwed up"... you do lots of damage, you take aggro. Same as EQ. To make things more interesting, there are some mobs that aren't tauntable, so tanks have to work harder to maintain aggro. There are other things in WoW that basically disable the EQ strategy of "gear up one tank, have a line of clerics heal him, and everybody else hang out and periodically do dps". >>> When theres 40 people in a raid, you need to be able to heal >>> everyone, so that means with the standard UI) watching 40 health [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > have a line of clerics heal him, and everybody else hang out and > periodically do dps". No, gear up several tanks, heal only as absolutely necessary and everyone else make the effort to manage their own aggro. It's not just the tank's job to manage aggro. There should be a penalty associated with gaining it when it can and should be avoided. That's the biggest reason I left WoW. Group sees mob. Everyone in group opens up on mob with both barrels. Mob dies. The risk even to the casters was very little. But hey, that philosophy sure helps make the game more accessible to the masses. SignatureRichard Carpenter "Write something worth reading, or do something worth writing." -- Benjamin Franklin >>>> When theres 40 people in a raid, you need to be able to heal >>>> everyone, so that means with the standard UI) watching 40 health [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >But hey, that philosophy sure helps make the game more accessible to the >masses. Sounds like the way low level EQ groups work... very little coordination, everyone wants to be a hero and go toe to toe with the mobs. As in EQ, that works up to maybe level 20, so I suspect you didn't get very far in WoW. If you follow that "philosophy" in an instance in WoW, you'll be heading back from the graveyard *very* quickly. >>>>> When theres 40 people in a raid, you need to be able to heal >>>>> everyone, so that means with the standard UI) watching 40 health [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >If you follow that "philosophy" in an instance in WoW, you'll be >heading back from the graveyard *very* quickly. And just to expand on this, when I first jumped into WoW I had the same impression... no coordination, everyone whacking away, etc etc. But thinking back, that's *exactly* the way it was when I went into EQ... everyone running around like crazy, your group dispersing to the 4 winds chasing whatever mob was closest. No one had a clue about crowd control. The thing you forget is that even if you start a level 1 EQ char now, the people you are playing with have level 60s and 70s and know how to play, right from the beginning. In WoW, it isn't till you get into 30's or 40's that people have learned how to really operate in a group. But at those levels and above, there is the same level of coordination that you see in EQ. >>>> When theres 40 people in a raid, you need to be able to heal >>>> everyone, so that means with the standard UI) watching 40 health [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > But hey, that philosophy sure helps make the game more accessible to > the masses. You obviously never played to 60 in any post-release content. SignatureArch Convoker Mairelon Snapbang Feral Lord Bosra Snowclaw Lanys T'vyl (Retired) Mairelon, 60th Hunter Silver Hand >>>>> When theres 40 people in a raid, you need to be able to heal >>>>> everyone, so that means with the standard UI) watching 40 health [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > You obviously never played to 60 in any post-release content. Got that right. It lost me way before that. Do you really have to get to 60 to see gameplay that requires more effort than that? SignatureRichard Carpenter "Write something worth reading, or do something worth writing." -- Benjamin Franklin >> You obviously never played to 60 in any post-release content. > > Got that right. It lost me way before that. Do you really have to get to > 60 to see gameplay that requires more effort than that? Not really - You also never did Gnomer or Uldaman from your responses (low level instances, and if you think pile on and attack works on Thermaplug, you'll be racking up some repair bills) It just doesn't seem like you ever did any of the excellent dungeon group content. Arguably the best stuff they did - until TBC that is. The group content in there is excellent. Nothing above ground requires more than that, but that's the casual friendly nature of it - no grouping required for almost all non-dungeon quests. Maybe a quick group and nail an elite, but nothing complex. SignatureArch Convoker Mairelon Snapbang Feral Lord Bosra Snowclaw Lanys T'vyl (Retired) Mairelon, 60th Hunter Silver Hand > tanks have to work harder to maintain aggro. There are other things > in WoW that basically disable the EQ strategy of "gear up one tank, > have a line of clerics heal him, and everybody else hang out and > periodically do dps". This is not surprising, as many (most? all?) of the raids in WoW were designed by people who had been in top raiding guilds in EQ1. Signature--Tim Smith >>>>>EQ is probably a much better game that it was before 2 years ago >>>>>(POP-OOW era). I think the devs learned a lesson when the [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > missed someone, get cussed out for it. When a game ceases to be fun > its time to stop. Hmm. Sounds like an "Easy Button" to me. Rather than quit, why wouldn't they just, you know, adapt? Surely, playing a little differently would be preferable to quitting? Who says they have to monitor 40 hp bars in either case? Work on getting that overload addressed. Just seems to me that those features you mentioned are way more than should ever be expected. The create an entire network of safety nets (a.k.a. training wheels). SignatureRichard Carpenter "Write something worth reading, or do something worth writing." -- Benjamin Franklin > Hmm. Sounds like an "Easy Button" to me. Rather than quit, why > wouldn't they just, you know, adapt? Surely, playing a little [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > should ever be expected. The create an entire network of safety nets > (a.k.a. training wheels). I honestly believe that most healers will adapt. The range of abilities we have in the UI community in WoW to help with information overload staggers the imagination. I think the only reason healers have been asked to watch 40 people up until now is because mods made it possible to do it that way. When you say divide the task you get reminded that other healers die - that's not a problem. A new addon designed for 2.0 allows you to specify what people a healer should watch (the others gray out so as not to be distracting) and specifies backup healers - so when a primary healer for a group dies, those people light up on their backup healer's display so they know to keep an eye on them. When you also remember that raid sizes are dropping in TBC to 25 people, that the devs have flat out stated that they made these changes so they won't have to design encounters around super fast, super-accurate decursing and the fact that they have made HP climb faster than DPS in the expansion (they cut the price of +sta in the item budget in half) in order to slow down combat -- All of these things mitigate the potential downside of losing current automation abilities. SignatureArch Convoker Mairelon Snapbang Feral Lord Bosra Snowclaw Lanys T'vyl (Retired) Mairelon, 60th Hunter Silver Hand > Just seems to me that those features you mentioned are way more than > should ever be expected. The create an entire network of safety nets > (a.k.a. training wheels). I think that it's worth mentioning here that Vladesch is the most vocal complainer and predicter of doom in agw with respect to the upcoming changes. Not everyone is of the same opinion. Most people in that group seem to accept the changes and a lot of us think that they are good. steve.kaye >> Just seems to me that those features you mentioned are way more than >> should ever be expected. The create an entire network of safety nets [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > steve.kaye "Most people" arnt affected by these changes. > >> Just seems to me that those features you mentioned are way more than > >> should ever be expected. The create an entire network of safety nets [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > "Most people" arnt affected by these changes. That is true and I'm not a raider myself yet so I'm not affected either. steve.kaye >>>>>EQ is probably a much better game that it was before 2 years ago >>>>>(POP-OOW era). I think the devs learned a lesson when the [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] >bars, and then when people start dying (as they will) cos I missed someone, >get cussed out for it. When a game ceases to be fun its time to stop. My impression what that it would still be possible to have addons that *displayed* info like who needed heals, but that Blizzard was disabling the ability to just pound on one button and have a macro cast the appropriate spell on the appropriate person. As far as looking at health bars, I've only done 20 person raids and I agree, just looking at that many health bars can be a pain, but usually we break things up.. either you are primarily responsible for your group, or you have responsibility for a particular tank, maybe responsible for shielding the mages, etc etc. I try to scan all the health bars when I can but it's generally not necessary. >>>>>>EQ is probably a much better game that it was before 2 years ago >>>>>>(POP-OOW era). I think the devs learned a lesson when the [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > disabling the ability to just pound on one button and have a macro > cast the appropriate spell on the appropriate person. You're kidding me. All they had to do was spam their heal button and whoever needed healed got it?? That's pretty ridiculous. I can certainly see why they're disabling that and would agree with it 100%. > As far as looking at health bars, I've only done 20 person raids and I > agree, just looking at that many health bars can be a pain, but > usually we break things up.. either you are primarily responsible for > your group, or you have responsibility for a particular tank, maybe > responsible for shielding the mages, etc etc. I try to scan all the > health bars when I can but it's generally not necessary. As it should be. SignatureRichard Carpenter "Write something worth reading, or do something worth writing." -- Benjamin Franklin >> ... >> My impression what that it would still be possible to have addons that [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >whoever needed healed got it?? That's pretty ridiculous. I can certainly >see why they're disabling that and would agree with it 100%. I don't know if there's a heal UI, but Decursive is a debuff UI addon that works exactly that way. If you are in a raid, it displays who has debuffs (poision, disease, magic, etc) that you can disperse, and all you have to do to cast the right spell on the right person is press one key. I suspect there's a similar addon for heals but I've never used it. What I'm hoping is that Blizzard preserves the ability to *see* and to *target* who needs to be cured, but that it's still up to the priest / druid to target the person and do the right thing. > I don't know if there's a heal UI, but Decursive is a debuff UI addon > that works exactly that way. If you are in a raid, it displays who > has debuffs (poision, disease, magic, etc) that you can disperse, and > all you have to do to cast the right spell on the right person is > press one key. I suspect there's a similar addon for heals but I've > never used it. There were such addons, but most don't use them in raids - it's a good way to have dead people and way too much overhealing. The most commonly used raid addon for healing AFAIK was "Emergency Monitor" - which displayed the top most injured folks in a list, and you clicked them to target and heal. Even then, most healers in AQ40 and Naxx that I've talked to only used it during trash clears - they said that riding the monitor was a good way to wipe. > What I'm hoping is that Blizzard preserves the ability to *see* and to > *target* who needs to be cured, but that it's still up to the priest / > druid to target the person and do the right thing. Not only can we still write addons to display that data - but that ability has actually been enhanced in 2.0. The new SPELLCAST_SENT event will allow a raid addon like CTRA to track not only the health of a unit, but how soon (and how large) a heal is going to hit it. Furthermore - they completely exposed the logic that allows spells to be cast on units without having to change your target, as well as determine if a given unit is within range of a given spell. Cladhaire's old version of Clique had to do some funky footwork to get the same effect, and it was not 100%. Now you can shade raid frames based soley on IsSpellInRange(spell, unit) and cast on them with either a macro of the form /cast [target=unitcode] Holy Light, or with a secure action button with its "unit" attribute set to that unit. Really, looking past the lockdown on using logic to determine the spell or target in combat (it can still be done OOC for buff addons), we are gaining a HUGE amount in this patch - the SecureActionButton/ SecureStateHeader is just the slickest thing you've ever seen. >>>EQ is probably a much better game that it was before 2 years ago (POP-OOW >>>era). I think the devs learned a lesson when the subscription base took a [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >of the guilds are able to raid anymore, but its anyones guess how long that >cycle will take. I'm a healer in a raiding guild, and neither myself nor any of my fellow healers are planning on leaving. In fact, I don't like addons that play the game for me. So I doubt very much that Blizzard is going to feel a lot of pain. >> Heh heh nice subject huh? >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > the unpopular changes in WOW patch 2.0, in particular the disabing of > many UI mods which removed much of the games micromanagement. Please, not many people are even going to notice that. The number of people who used mods like decursive isn't that high to begin with, and of those, the ones who can adapt to new methods outnumber those who want to have a mod play the game for them. > Nah I'm not bitter. Just wasted a good 2 years and countless $$$ on > the game. It was only a waste if you didn't enjoy it. If you didn't enjoy it then you should have stopped playing much earlier. steve.kaye >> Nah I'm not bitter. Just wasted a good 2 years and countless $$$ on >> the game. > > It was only a waste if you didn't enjoy it. If you didn't enjoy it > then you should have stopped playing much earlier. As the cool kids say, QFT. SignatureRichard Carpenter "Write something worth reading, or do something worth writing." -- Benjamin Franklin >As the cool kids say, QFT. QFT means what? Never found out. Even IIRC gets me scratching even though I know what it means. I got bad memory and I don't mean in the computer... > >As the cool kids say, QFT. > > QFT means what? Never found out. Even IIRC gets me scratching even > though I know what it means. I got bad memory and I don't mean in the > computer... QFT=Quoted for Truth (you quote something you agree with, then just add that) IIRC=If I Recall Correctly >> Nah I'm not bitter. Just wasted a good 2 years and countless $$$ on >> the game. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >steve.kaye Oh I enjoyed it. even with all the bugs introduced with the various expansions. Using the work arounds until the fixes where release (some weren't). Its just as of late there seems to be too much not to my liking. The new /petition system. While some claim to have got it to work I tried and got fed up with it. And if I read the official forums correctly so did quite a lot of others. Its a griefers dream come true. No one will use the petition system so they have free rein of EQ. Add to that the majority of people are in TSS zones and I won't buy it since it isn't retail. My fault/problem I know but since theres no one to group with theres no reason for me to play the game anymore. I can't solo the level 60+ mobs. What I find amusing is Soe asked for feedback on the new petition system and at last viewing there were only 2 positive remark in 11 pages of that thread. And one could be considered a neutral comment (imo). >>>Nah I'm not bitter. Just wasted a good 2 years and countless $$$ on >>>the game. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > pages of that thread. And one could be considered a neutral comment > (imo). Although its somewhat late to jump on this bandwagon, the Combine and Sleeper servers were started just this summer, and limited which expansions were available; originally just the "classic" three continents, then adding more expansions at intervals; Kunark, Velious, Luclin, POP, LDoN, and LOY are currently open. This means there are still a lot of people playing in the old zones, and that the game is a lot less topheavy with level 65's and dozens of AA (current level limit is 65) than "normal" servers with 75's with hundreds of AA. Also, it has a lot more people who are interested in those older zones; if you weren't interested, then you tended to stay on existing servers. The guild I'm in takes this a step further, having vowed, in raid terms, to try to stick to experiencing the content in order, and to do everything; we did VP, which I know 99% of EQ players never have, and we did it after Velious was already open, while most people were skipping VP in order to do Velious progression. Similarly, we're still working on ST access, just finishing up our runs on TOV... despite the fact that Luclin and even POP are out there. Individual members are doing BOT and so on, but the guild as a whole is staying with our own progression timing. There are other guilds out there which are moving even slower than we are, too. This means you could concievably "catch up" enough to find guilds doing content you liked, instead of playing on "normal" servers where everyone is in TSS zones, or running MM's for their lightning fast exp advancement. It also meant the people who wanted to start over, or who were just starting up for the first time, tended to concentrate onto those two servers; this is less true now, when a lot of people are starting over with Dragon-kin, which are only available on the original servers; but for a while, almost all new character starts were happening on just two servers, which meant it was very easy to find people to group with in the lower levels. If to you, 60+ mobs are still the low end game, then Combine/Sleeper play might solve your woes; while you may find the pickings leaner than you like in the 20-50 game, solo or small group play are still very viable ways to get up to where there are currently tons of people doing the content you're interested in. Lance Berg, 64 SK, Combine On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 12:17:06 -0600 in <jr1hm2hv4u66amdo476qgv0puvve66qrsm@4ax.com>, Dude Rawr <nospam@private.org> graced the world with this thought: >Nah I'm not bitter. Just wasted a good 2 years and countless $$$ on >the game. Isn't this due more to your own stupidity than SOE having done anything, or are you just one of those people who never takes the blame for personal responsibility and points the finger at someone else every time. Can you control your bladder? >Isn't this due more to your own stupidity than SOE having done >anything, or are you just one of those people who never takes the >blame for personal responsibility and points the finger at someone >else every time. >Can you control your bladder? Uh wtf are you talking about? Or are you just trolling for a flame war? >> On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 12:17:06 -0600 in >> <jr1hm2hv4u66amdo476qgv0puvve66qrsm@4ax.com>, Dude Rawr [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Uh wtf are you talking about? Or are you just trolling for a flame > war? I think the point was that no one held a gun to your head and forced you to subject yourself to such a horrible experience for so long. SignatureRichard Carpenter "Write something worth reading, or do something worth writing." -- Benjamin Franklin |
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