I appear to have quit again...
The last hurrah was the actual Raiding Game, whereby the following
things occured:
* I obtained gear for little or no effort that trivialised the remaining
parts of the grouping game that I had enjoyed
* I realised that actually being a good player meant nothing. The DKP
system ensures that the guy with 200 fewer AA's than me and a tenth of
my experience playing my class but who turns up to 20% more raids than I
do will always be better geared.
* I realised that the raiding game is really quite monotonous, really
low-skill for most players, and rewards robotic obedience over
creativity 9 times out of 10.
Oh and then they replaced nektulos with something out of a video game,
and brought out another expansion with another 50 tanking AA's to get
that work exactly like the last 50 tanking AA's I got.
Waiting for Vanguard,
James
Kuloth (70/218 SK, The Rathe)
> I appear to have quit again...
Yep, just when you think it isn't possible for it to suck anymore, it goes
and surprises you :p
Tony Evans - 13 Nov 2005 09:36 GMT
In alt.games.everquest, "Lief" <ask.me.for@it.com> wrote:
>> I appear to have quit again...
>Yep, just when you think it isn't possible for it to suck anymore, it goes
>and surprises you :p
Isn't it possible to grow bored with something without it actually sucking?
Personally, having as much or more fun than ever in EQ.

Signature
Tony Evans (ICQ : 170850)
GCv312 GCS d s+:++ a C+++ UAL++++$ P+ L++ E W(++) N+++(N--) w++$ R+ tv-- b++
I would strongly oppose apathy, if I cared.
Gemmell Mania : http://www.gemmellmania.co.uk
Palindrome - 13 Nov 2005 10:55 GMT
>In alt.games.everquest, "Lief" <ask.me.for@it.com> wrote:
>
>>> I appear to have quit again...
>
>>Yep, just when you think it isn't possible for it to suck anymore, it goes
>>and surprises you :p
>Isn't it possible to grow bored with something without it actually sucking?
Well said!
Palindrome
Lief - 13 Nov 2005 19:57 GMT
> In alt.games.everquest, "Lief" <ask.me.for@it.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Isn't it possible to grow bored with something without it actually sucking?
I guess so. But, in my opinion, EQ was good, and now sucks.
> Personally, having as much or more fun than ever in EQ.
I am glad for you.
Richard - 18 Nov 2005 00:17 GMT
"Lief" <ask.me.for@it.com> wrote in news:hUMdf.7203$PI4.4014@newsfe4-
win.ntli.net:
>> In alt.games.everquest, "Lief" <ask.me.for@it.com> wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> I am glad for you.
I am still playing EQ, but, SOE is certainly going a long way towards
sucking the fun out of the game. I am also eagerly awaiting Vanguard, if
it's good, then I expect I will quit EQ.
James Hicks <jhicks@nospam.please> wrote in news:4376b842$0$10002$5a62ac22
@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au:
> I appear to have quit again...
>
> Waiting for Vanguard,
I know exactly how you feel. Unfortunately, in the meantime and for me,
anyway, as Al Pacino said, "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me
back in". :P
Playing....AGAIN....merely for lack of anything better, pretty much.
I also eagerly await Vanguard.

Signature
Richard Carpenter
"Write something worth reading, or do something worth writing."
-- Benjamin Franklin
louis vincze jr - 13 Nov 2005 14:53 GMT
> James Hicks <jhicks@nospam.please> wrote in news:4376b842$0$10002$5a62ac22
> @per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> I also eagerly await Vanguard.
What's Vanguard?
Richard Carpenter - 13 Nov 2005 16:37 GMT
>> James Hicks <jhicks@nospam.please> wrote in
>> news:4376b842$0$10002$5a62ac22 @per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au:
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> What's Vanguard?
http://www.vanguardsoh.com/
It's a major MMORPG scheduled to be released in 2006. It is being developed
by Sigil Games, the company started by Brad McQuaid and a few of the other
Verant folks responsible for the original (or pre-SoE) EQ.

Signature
Richard Carpenter
"Write something worth reading, or do something worth writing."
-- Benjamin Franklin
Faeandar - 14 Nov 2005 21:58 GMT
>>> James Hicks <jhicks@nospam.please> wrote in
>>> news:4376b842$0$10002$5a62ac22 @per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au:
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>by Sigil Games, the company started by Brad McQuaid and a few of the other
>Verant folks responsible for the original (or pre-SoE) EQ.
A few? It's pretty much the entire original core EQ dev team from 989
Studios.
~F
<jhicks@nospam.please> wrote:
> I appear to have quit again...
I'm having as much fun in EQ as I've had in a long time. The past three
expansions have all been top notch releases in my opinion. Ironically, I'm
actually enjoying the non-raiding game more than I have for a *long* time,
actually playing a few twinks these days.
> The last hurrah was the actual Raiding Game, whereby the following
> things occured:
>
> * I obtained gear for little or no effort that trivialised the remaining
> parts of the grouping game that I had enjoyed
If the grouping game is trivial, you're grouping in the wrong places.
Knowing where you were in progression, and seeing how many AAs you have, I
can pretty much guarantee that I, as a monk, have more hp, ac, etc. I could
easily tank for any group that you would tank for. Yet there is plenty of
single-group content that I wouldn't even dream of trying to tank, which
means that there is a whole helluva lot of the grouping game that would be
far from trivial for you.
> * I realised that actually being a good player meant nothing. The DKP
> system ensures that the guy with 200 fewer AA's than me and a tenth of
> my experience playing my class but who turns up to 20% more raids than I
> do will always be better geared.
Being a good player means tons. DKP, however, is almost universally set up
in such a way as to reward attendance over everything else. For a guild,
attendance is key, and not surprisingly attendance is rewarded to encourage
it.
I'm not the best equipped monk in my guild. I don't have the most dkp. I
don't have the best attendance. When there is a tough pull to be made, I'm
the one they look at. Being a good player is far from meaningless. =)
> * I realised that the raiding game is really quite monotonous, really
> low-skill for most players, and rewards robotic obedience over
> creativity 9 times out of 10.
In a known-strategy encounter, there is little place for creativity.
It's probably good you left now before you got to fights like OMM and Vish
where "obedience" is the key to success. A lot of people find those to be
the most challenging fights, though they require no individual creativity
whatsoever.
Monotony is what you judge it to be. I myself find many parts of the
raiding game monotonous. Buffing in particular I find exceedingly
monotonous (probably mostly because as a monk I have absolutely zero to do
during buffing). It could never compare to the monotony of most
grouping/grinding.
One of the things that is making me enjoy the current non-raiding game more
than ever before is the monster missions and single-group missions in
DoN/DoD. There is some actual creativity, and with the monster missions
especially there is actually a lot of intermingling of the different tiers
of players. As a level 70, 10k+ unbuffed hp monk I've recently found myself
grouped with everything from my peers to a random level 30 non-twink
enchanter. I've taken advantage of this in reverse, leveling a
long-neglected ranger (my actual original character from May 1999) from 54
to 62 with 35AAs in monster missions.
> Oh and then they replaced nektulos with something out of a video game,
> and brought out another expansion with another 50 tanking AA's to get
> that work exactly like the last 50 tanking AA's I got.
Nektulos seems like a pretty "slapped together" zone, I agree. They needed
a couple extra zone lines, understandable, but I don't think they put much
thought into the new Nektulos.
AAs have always operated that way though. Just ask a few wizards who have
watched their crit rate drop before an expansion and then find out they can
buy AAs to bump them back up.
> Waiting for Vanguard,
> James
>
> Kuloth (70/218 SK, The Rathe)
Vanguard may be great. I wouldn't bet on it. But then I've actually talked
one-to-one with Brad way back in the day and so have a well formed personal
opinion of the man "behind the game". To put it another way, one of my
biggest complaints about EQ for the first couple years was Brad himself.
I'm sure I'll give Vanguard a try. It's not that Brad McQuaid was in any
way a "bad" game developer, before the game came out, he was just completely
inflexible in the face of *overwhelming* and unanimous complaint from the
userbase.
James Hicks - 20 Dec 2005 07:27 GMT
> <jhicks@nospam.please> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> means that there is a whole helluva lot of the grouping game that would be
> far from trivial for you.
Suffice to say convincing a group to go to any such place would be
largely impossible, while the rewards for turning up to a raid and
exhibiting four hours of robotic obedience would be far, far greater.
(possible cause and effect there)
>>* I realised that actually being a good player meant nothing. The DKP
>>system ensures that the guy with 200 fewer AA's than me and a tenth of
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> don't have the best attendance. When there is a tough pull to be made, I'm
> the one they look at. Being a good player is far from meaningless. =)
Perhaps the fault was with my guild, but I doubt it. The system is
pretty limited. So are the raids.
>>* I realised that the raiding game is really quite monotonous, really
>>low-skill for most players, and rewards robotic obedience over
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> the most challenging fights, though they require no individual creativity
> whatsoever.
Yeah, good thing I left before such 'challenges'.
> One of the things that is making me enjoy the current non-raiding game more
> than ever before is the monster missions and single-group missions in
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> long-neglected ranger (my actual original character from May 1999) from 54
> to 62 with 35AAs in monster missions.
I liked being a shadowknight (when it worked). If I wanted to play as
an Orc, surrounded by people without a clue how to play their actual
class, I'd have gone over to WoW ;)
>>Oh and then they replaced nektulos with something out of a video game,
>>and brought out another expansion with another 50 tanking AA's to get
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> watched their crit rate drop before an expansion and then find out they can
> buy AAs to bump them back up.
Not sure this is justification for the infinite continuation of this
structure? Just because it has always been so, it must be so... Glad the
rest of humanity never thought so - I'm not much good at catching fish
with my hands.
>>Waiting for Vanguard,
>>James
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> inflexible in the face of *overwhelming* and unanimous complaint from the
> userbase.
I think the central message of 2nd generation MMORPGs is that being
flexible in the face of overwhelming and unanimous complaint is the
short road to giving players whatever they want and removing any real
challenge to the game.
Vanguard will probably be great because they're actually introducing
new kinds of challenge (such as non-moronic AI) and expanding on the
original concept of MMO's, rather than simply implementing what players
think they want on top of the oldest set of ideas available.
Regards,
James
Richard Carpenter - 20 Dec 2005 16:56 GMT
< snipped and the remainder selectively emphasized >
> Vanguard will probably be great because they're actually
> introducing
> new kinds of challenge (such as non-moronic AI) and expanding on the
> original concept of MMO's, [[[rather than simply implementing what
> players think they want]]] on top of the oldest set of ideas available.
That's one of the key reasons I will be one of the first in line to play
it.

Signature
Richard Carpenter
"Write something worth reading, or do something worth writing."
-- Benjamin Franklin
Xiphos - 21 Dec 2005 01:13 GMT
> < snipped and the remainder selectively emphasized >
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> That's one of the key reasons I will be one of the first in line to play
> it.
But will it have playable lizardmen?
--
Xiphos - such a stupid, simple criteria I have. Why don't more MMO's
have playable (lizard|cat|dog|rock|bird|wookie|rat|moose)men?
Faned - 23 Dec 2005 19:12 GMT
<jhicks@nospam.please> wrote:
> > <jhicks@nospam.please> wrote:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> exhibiting four hours of robotic obedience would be far, far greater.
> (possible cause and effect there)
If you research them, or just stumble across them, you find that the
challenging single-group content has many rewards that appeal even to
raiders.
There's no need to "convince" a group to go to such a place. If your
ambitions exceed your peer group, look for a group of actual *peers*.
> >>* I realised that actually being a good player meant nothing. The DKP
> >>system ensures that the guy with 200 fewer AA's than me and a tenth of
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Perhaps the fault was with my guild, but I doubt it. The system is
> pretty limited. So are the raids.
DKP systems are intentionally limited to meet their specific purpose
(encouraging attendance for the most part).
Raids are limited by the mechanics of this (or any) game. I think Sony has
done a pretty good job with making encounters with some variety, but the
focus will never stray far from the tank/healer/slower/dps distinctions.
> >>* I realised that the raiding game is really quite monotonous, really
> >>low-skill for most players, and rewards robotic obedience over
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Yeah, good thing I left before such 'challenges'.
No creativity does not imply no free will. Using an example of a Vishimitar
raid, there is a "buff" you might get near the end that will kill you in ~30
seconds if you don't find a wandering mob and say the right key phrase. The
"robotic obedience" part is that you *must* get that buff removed. Anyone
that dies spawns an add. One person not being "obedient" to that raid
instruction threatens the success of the raid.
> > One of the things that is making me enjoy the current non-raiding game more
> > than ever before is the monster missions and single-group missions in
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> an Orc, surrounded by people without a clue how to play their actual
> class, I'd have gone over to WoW ;)
I consider MMs to be great for socializing and grinding. When I'm
"grinding", even as my monk, it doesn't matter that I'm a monk. I'm not
putting any monkly skills to the test.
Even better, the training of being dropped into an encounter that has to be
completed in a certain way is a great introduction to the sort of mindset
required to be a good raider.
> >>Oh and then they replaced nektulos with something out of a video game,
> >>and brought out another expansion with another 50 tanking AA's to get
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> rest of humanity never thought so - I'm not much good at catching fish
> with my hands.
I don't agree with it myself. But complaining about this and complaining
about mudlfation at the same time are at odds with each other.
> >>Waiting for Vanguard,
> >>James
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> short road to giving players whatever they want and removing any real
> challenge to the game.
I agree mostly. WoW was obviously the product of great programmers, but the
"game" is too easy. I see that in any post-EQ game. Of course, the
subscription numbers show that this is the path to success (short term or
long term as yet to be determined).
> Vanguard will probably be great because they're actually introducing
> new kinds of challenge (such as non-moronic AI) and expanding on the
> original concept of MMO's, rather than simply implementing what players
> think they want on top of the oldest set of ideas available.
It wouldn't shock me if Vanguard were a spectacular flop, for exactly the
above reason.
I will be positively amazed if they have any sort of AI whatsoever. No MMOG
has had even a rudimentary AI yet, and I really don't think the technology
is there to be able to have an AI in an MMOG yet. Don't be too surprised
when that "AI" turns out to be nothing more than the scripting that exists
in every other game.