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Game Forum / Role Playing Games / EverQuest / October 2005Ranger question
Ok, so, the group: ranger, warrior, cleric, chanter,shaman, and rogue. Ranger is pulling. Ranger comes back with snared mobs, and proceeds to keep aggro for long enough to require multiple heals. Warrior says in group "Can you use jolt, please?" Ranger says "Sorry, don't have spell slot open for it. Why don't you taunt?" Well, the warrior says he is taunting, but taunt fails a lot. The ranger basically says tough, too bad you're not uber :-) Eventually the cleric pulls heal aggro trying to keep the ranger puller/tank alive and gets one rounded, the warrior says "bye, gonna go, ummm, work on my baking or something..." and we break up. Soooooo... My question is WHAT spells could that ranger have needed more than jolt and what could we have done here besides letting the cleric pull? :-) My understanding was that rangers ALWAYS used jolt. I have a feeling this is a case of "I did 20 levels last week so of course I know how to play my class" <wrat@panix.com> wrote: > Ok, so, the group: ranger, warrior, cleric, chanter,shaman, and > rogue. Ranger is pulling. Ranger comes back with snared mobs, and [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I have a feeling this is a case of "I did 20 levels last week > so of course I know how to play my class" Rangers, like most hybrids, only have 4 spells. Heal, snare, root, and... make that three. >Rangers, like most hybrids, only have 4 spells. Heal, snare, root, and... >make that three. And that spiky shield thing, Call of Mirth or whatever... > Ok, so, the group: ranger, warrior, cleric, chanter,shaman, and >rogue. Ranger is pulling. Ranger comes back with snared mobs, and [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I have a feeling this is a case of "I did 20 levels last week >so of course I know how to play my class" Usual spell line up on my 67,288 Ranger: 1.Snare 2.Heal 3.Root 4.Fire Nuke 5.Cold Nuke 6. to 8. is situational,sometimes its Regrowth or a Damageshield,but there isnt much demand,either there is a class which can cover this better or the players need the buffslot for more important stuff. When tanking (rarely) I mem "Tangling Weeds"(0.8 sec cast time short duration snare) to hold aggro. When pulling I either use bow or Jolt. Conclusion:the Ranger in your little story simply "sucked". =) How can one not have enough spellslots or pull with snare is beyond me. It always surprises me,that I generate so small aggro with 5 procs running at Weapon Affinity 5,even in pickupgroups with probably mostly Bazaar equipped tanks the mobs rarely turn to me,this changes the moment I dare to use a snare for pulling,even if the tank manages to get aggro from me,I have it back some procs later. Uland 67,288 Hunter >How can one not have enough spellslots or pull with snare is beyond >me. So the big problem was pulling with snare? >>How can one not have enough spellslots or pull with snare is beyond >>me. > > So the big problem was pulling with snare? Of course. Snare generates huge aggro,more than slows,as I learned in the last weeks,since I got Earthcaller (procs 50% slow). Mobs mostly seem to ignore slow even when it lands early,while on the other hand a (resisted) snare at around 50% health make them turn to me most of the time. Not so sure about the slow aggro,maybe it has something to do with that it is a proc,I notice Beastlords getting aggro all the time when they (try to) slow. Uland 67,288 Hunter > >>How can one not have enough spellslots or pull with snare is beyond > >>me. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Of course. > Snare generates huge aggro,more than slows,as I learned in the last If he is pulling with ensnare and not entrap he is just stupid. >> >>How can one not have enough spellslots or pull with snare is beyond >> >>me. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >If he is pulling with ensnare and not entrap he is just stupid. Hm,even with close to 300 AAs I always found something more useful than to spent AA points on an ability I already posess,I have no problems with "only" 8 spell slots or the mana cost of (En)snare. That said,I was always under the impression that the AA snare works like a spell snare according to aggro ?! And as mentioned in another post in this thread Jolt is the way to pull,maybe now with easy weapon setup switching enabled by bandoliers using bow and a low damage/high range arrow is another possibility,though I am already short of bandolier slots, 4 isnt enough,I would need about 8. Uland 67,288 Hunter <nj1bl1l70ed3pi54ctuq6ie8fucopt86ca@4ax.com>, > >> >>How can one not have enough spellslots or pull with snare is beyond > >> >>me. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > than to spent AA points on an ability I already posess,I have no > problems with "only" 8 spell slots or the mana cost of (En)snare. What? You have invis dont you? Your bought inate camo? Saving a spell slot is good. Plus is far less aggro than ensnare. > That said,I was always under the impression that the AA snare works > like a spell snare according to aggro ?! Nope, see above. > And as mentioned in another post in this thread Jolt is the way to > pull,maybe now with easy weapon setup switching enabled by > bandoliers using bow and a low damage/high range arrow is > another possibility,though I am already short of bandolier slots, > 4 isnt enough,I would need about 8. Doesnt matter if you pull with jolt or an arrow really, if you shoot them too hard you will get summoned though, depending on the mob you are shooting. If the warrior has a clue / decent setup it shouldnt matter what you pull with. > >> >>How can one not have enough spellslots or pull with snare is beyond > >> >>me. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > That said,I was always under the impression that the AA snare works > like a spell snare according to aggro ?! Seems to for me. I bought entrap pretty early actually, maybe around 100 AAs. It was a better deal when ensnare was the best snare because the extra spell slot is indeed nice. Do you keep nukes up? Tanging weeds as well as your other snare? A root? Heal and jolt? It's easy for me to run out of spell gems. > And as mentioned in another post in this thread Jolt is the way to > pull I pull with snare a lot actually. If I'm chain pulling and need to keep the next mob under control, if I am worried about an add, if the tank is gimp and we need the mob slowed on incoming, etc. But this is situational. I don't do this when the mobs hit for 1200+ and I dont do it if the tank is agro-deficient. I pride myself on good chain pulling, so even the time it takes to stop and cast jolt, for me, is too damn long. > maybe now with easy weapon setup switching enabled by > bandoliers using bow and a low damage/high range arrow is > another possibility,though I am already short of bandolier slots, > 4 isnt enough,I would need about 8. No kidding. I have 1 for 1h weapons, 1 for my 2her, 1 for archery, 1 for earthcaller (could combine the last two I guess). I could still use 2 more. One for my gate hammer as well as to switch to my weenie bow for pulling summoners. > Ok, so, the group: ranger, warrior, cleric, chanter,shaman, and >rogue. Ranger is pulling. Ranger comes back with snared mobs, and [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I have a feeling this is a case of "I did 20 levels last week >so of course I know how to play my class" Dunno about the spells but as a cleric I will heal the puller once, then all my attention goes to tank. If puller dies, easy enough to find another one. I do make that known at the onset though, it's not a suprise to the puller if it happens. ~F > Dunno about the spells but as a cleric I will heal the puller once, > then all my attention goes to tank. If puller dies, easy enough to > find another one. That was my reaction also. Especially since the puller in this scenario was a ranger. "Oh look, the ranger died again!" -- Don. --------------------------------------------------------------------- -- See the a.g.e/EQ1 FAQ at http://www.iCynic.com/~don/EQ/age.faq.htm -- -- Sukrasisx, Monk 57 on E. Marr Note: If you reply by mail, -- Terrwini, Druid 53 on E. Marr I'll get to it sooner if you -- Wizbeau, Wizard 36 on E. Marr remove the "hyphen n s" -- Teviron, Knight 29 on E. Marr > > Dunno about the spells but as a cleric I will heal the puller once, > > then all my attention goes to tank. If puller dies, easy enough to > > find another one. > > That was my reaction also. Especially since the puller in this > scenario was a ranger. "Oh look, the ranger died again!" 5 years on, I dont play anymore, but still the same droll 'humour' Get a clue please :p >> > Dunno about the spells but as a cleric I will heal the puller once, >> > then all my attention goes to tank. If puller dies, easy enough to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Get a clue please :p Oh come on, knock knock jokes still ammuse. Ranger-gate jokes are no different... But seriously, at the onset of the group I identify the tank, let everyone know that he's the priority no matter what, and that the only way the group survives is if, in order, the tank/cleric/slower survive. There are exceptions of course but generally that's the lowdown. Usually I HoT the puller as he goes, after that it's a real gamble on his part if he gets healed again. Twice in MPG I had to let the puller die just to keep the tank up until slow landed. The way it goes sometimes. If there's a patch healer in the group though the rules change. ~F > Oh come on, knock knock jokes still ammuse. Ranger-gate jokes are no > different... No different, thats kinda my point :D Everyone dies easily, the clueless more than anyone else. Class has no relevance anymore. > But seriously, at the onset of the group I identify the tank, let > everyone know that he's the priority no matter what, and that the only > way the group survives is if, in order, the tank/cleric/slower > survive. There are exceptions of course but generally that's the > lowdown. Yep, sounds fine, though again, these days lots of people can tank a mob which has been slowed. > Usually I HoT the puller as he goes, after that it's a real gamble on > his part if he gets healed again. Twice in MPG I had to let the > puller die just to keep the tank up until slow landed. The way it > goes sometimes. A puller shouldn't be healed, you are just asking for trouble. Situations vary, but the puller, if hes any good, should be aware of this. > If there's a patch healer in the group though the rules change. Rangers can patch heal these days :/// Anyway, what do I care, just got my Vanguard beta through FU all!!! :p  SignatureLief >A puller shouldn't be healed, you are just asking for trouble. Situations Well, gee... I heal the puller because It's easy enough to hit DA and the AA heal, or even a group heal after the tank locks things down. Having the puller die greatly slows down the kill rate. It's still cheaper to heal then it is to rez and rebuff. And mostly because I hate to see anyone die even though I know it's just a game and even in-game deaths don't really matter that much. In alt.games.everquest, wrat@panix.com (the wharf rat) wrote: > Soooooo... My question is WHAT spells could that ranger have >needed more than jolt and what could we have done here besides letting >the cleric pull? :-) My understanding was that rangers ALWAYS used >jolt. Pull with an arrow, it's easier. What the warrior needs to do is, 1. tag with an arrow before the mob's in camp 2. engage with weapons before anything else 3. taunt once 4. use their best hate disc (incite or whatever) Even with snare on the mob, that will almost always get aggro if the puller knows what their job is - which is to get the mob to the warrior's feet and stand until it's on the tank not them. It's vital to tag and do some damage before using the hate disc, because the raw hate from your first action to get onto the hate list is capped. Pullers have a hate bonus from being the first one to get onto the hate list, so you have to get over that. I prefer my pullers not to 'jolt', because when the taunt does land, I then have an aggro boost over the rest of the group. However, pullers need to adapt, and if the tank is struggling for aggro, they should consider using jolt and not pulling with snare (an arrow is enough). The risk with jolt is that it lowers the puller's hate and the next person on the list is .... the cleric. SignatureTony Evans (ICQ : 170850) Recommended Author : Guy Gavriel Kay You sound reasonable......time to up my medication. Homepage : http://www.darkstorm.co.uk/tony > Ok, so, the group: ranger, warrior, cleric, chanter,shaman, and > rogue. Ranger is pulling. Ranger comes back with snared mobs, and [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I have a feeling this is a case of "I did 20 levels last week > so of course I know how to play my class" Well I usually pulled with jolt, and snared with Entrap (aa)which is far less aggro than Ensnare. I would then walk behind the warrior and stand next to him until he had aggro, if the warrior has decent taunt weapons it should only take a hit or two. Then back off, and shoot / melee as normal. Its not hard really. The spells I usually had when pulling were root, nuke, nuke, ensnare, heal, SoE, HoN, jolt. No reason not to have jolt up if you need it. Almost missing the point all together, ranger was using the wrong spell to pull with, not whether he should be using Jolt/Cinder Jolt which have the uncanny knack of not landing when you want them. I pull Creator very happily with any of the dispell magic line, not much difference in range and very easy to peel off by any tank class on the way back, plus has chance of knocking out a defensive buff at same time. A single arrow hit is more than enough to peel the mob off or the first opening barage of melee by your waiting tank. Carry a Jolt if you want, but a root spell is just as good to drop mob off infront of your tank to taunt or slap around. > Almost missing the point all together, ranger was using the wrong spell to > pull with, not whether he should be using Jolt/Cinder Jolt which have the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > waiting tank. Carry a Jolt if you want, but a root spell is just as good to > drop mob off infront of your tank to taunt or slap around. It doesnt matter if a spell is resisted, you will still get aggro. Also, you lose aggro with jolt type spells whether the spell is resisted or not (see graffes / concussion). Better tell the mobs that used to keep coming after me after a resisted Jolt that their hate had been reduced, somehow, I dont think they were checking any (graphs?) graffes that said a failed casting reduced it. Other point about using a debuff, much less chance of getting summoned back for an intimate chat as you've still to do damage, bit like a bard using their debuff song to bring a ticked off rather than furious mob in behind them. In alt.games.everquest, "RangerGirl" <kris@twoplates.f9.co.uk> wrote: >Better tell the mobs that used to keep coming after me after a resisted Jolt >that their hate had been reduced, somehow, I dont think they were checking >any (graphs?) graffes that said a failed casting reduced it. Graffe's is the wizard website, they did extensive testing with Concusion to demonstrate that even when fully resisted, you could still drop aggro on a mob by a constant amount, vs. when not resisted. The hate component of a spell is applied regardless of whether the spell is resisted or not, and the hate component of Concussion is negative. The assumption was that Jolt behaves in the same way. I don't know if it's been tested. However, Jolt and Concussion are hate reducers, you still have hate at the end, and no spell can reduce your hate to 0 other than those which memwipe the target. >Other point about using a debuff, much less chance of getting summoned back >for an intimate chat as you've still to do damage, bit like a bard using >their debuff song to bring a ticked off rather than furious mob in behind >them. Dispell is an excellent way to pull mobs, especially in DoN missions with enchanter drakes around, or places like Tipt and Vxed where the mobs are brutal enough, never mind when hasted by a 'friendly' Ikaav or Mastruq. SignatureTony Evans (ICQ : 170850) GCv312 GCS d s+:++ a C+++ UAL++++$ P+ L++ E W(++) N+++(N--) w++$ R+ tv-- b++ If it wasn't for C, we would be using BASI, PASAL and OBOL! Homepage : http://www.darkstorm.co.uk/tony > Better tell the mobs that used to keep coming after me after a resisted Jolt > that their hate had been reduced, somehow, I dont think they were checking > any (graphs?) graffes that said a failed casting reduced it. It will still give you aggro on a mob which was still indifferent. > Other point about using a debuff, much less chance of getting summoned back > for an intimate chat as you've still to do damage, bit like a bard using > their debuff song to bring a ticked off rather than furious mob in behind > them. Yep, I agree, I used dispell / annul myself on occasion, dont really like using it when other mobs are wandering around due to the cast time. If you have any other ranger related questions or ideas, feel free to gimme a shout on msn tallbloke30@hotmail.com (which goes for anyone on this thread, btw), as I dont check here much. > Ok, so, the group: ranger, warrior, cleric, chanter,shaman, and > rogue. Ranger is pulling. Ranger comes back with snared mobs, and [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I have a feeling this is a case of "I did 20 levels last week > so of course I know how to play my class" Let's see. Snare/ensnare, tangling weeds, flame lick, root, his best heal, Sow, 2 fast casting (0.5 cast time, 30 sec recast) nukes and... Taunt is also not some super aggro mechanism (so the Ranger was wrong there). If the ranger kept fighting the mob, then the combo of probable dual wield hits, kicks (also aggro), nukes, versus the warrior's taunt and usually lower dps would keep the aggro on the ranger and not let the warrior get aggro (don't know about warrior disciplines). It is also true that the warrior should start trying to get aggro before the puller arrives in camp. The ranger can help by rooting the mob and stepping out of reach so the mob starts to attack the warrior. The ranger can help by rooting the > mob and stepping out of reach so the mob starts to attack the warrior. Rooting a mob you have pulled is stupid, imho. In alt.games.everquest, hidone@hotmail.com wrote: >there). If the ranger kept fighting the mob, then the combo of probable >dual wield hits, kicks (also aggro), nukes, versus the warrior's taunt >and usually lower dps would keep the aggro on the ranger and not let >the warrior get aggro (don't know about warrior disciplines). My warrior generates more hate / second than a ranger with equivalent gear doing anything, except snaring or using flame lick. >It is also true that the warrior should start trying to get aggro >before the puller arrives in camp. The ranger can help by rooting the >mob and stepping out of reach so the mob starts to attack the warrior. A warrior should get on the hate list before using their innate hate disciplines to avoid the raw hate cap on first aggro. If the ranger shoots the mob with one arrow, and the warrior shoots the mob with two arrows, the warrior has more hate. If the ranger shoots the mob with one arrow, the warrior uses one arrow, and the ranger stands behind the warrior, the warrior will get aggro purely through proximity initially, and can then guild a hate lead using discs. There's a reason or two why Shadowknight's snare incoming mobs ... SignatureTony Evans (ICQ : 170850) Recommended Author : Stan Nicholls [http://www.stannicholls.com] If reality wants to reach me, it knows where I am. Gemmell Mania : http://www.gemmellmania.co.uk >In alt.games.everquest, hidone@hotmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >There's a reason or two why Shadowknight's snare incoming mobs ... Are SK's still considered tanks? It's not an a.s question, it's just that in the last few months every SK I've grouped with that was the MT was a mana sieve on heals. But the warriors and Paladins pretty much held their own nicely. ~F In alt.games.everquest, Faeandar <mr_castalot@yahoo.com> wrote: >Are SK's still considered tanks? It's not an a.s question, it's just >that in the last few months every SK I've grouped with that was the MT >was a mana sieve on heals. But the warriors and Paladins pretty much >held their own nicely. Equivalent geared SK's and Paladins tank at the same level - the difference can often be pre-slow, the Paladin is mitigating more damage due to stuns. It may be easier to better gear Paladin's, which might account for the differences you're seeing. Also, I find Shadowknights keen on spending AA on their harmtouch and not on their defensive AA's. We've a few SK's in our guild, all 67+ who tank anything guild groups go and do fine, although probably only one of them is RSS capable. For quite a few DoN missions, my warrior was DPS in the group with the Shadowknight, because his AC was far superior. So are they still considered tanks - yes - if they've done the work to get gear and the AA required in the high-end XP zones. Paladins can cheat a little bit by mitigating incoming damage via stuns. SignatureTony Evans (ICQ : 170850) Recommended Author : Guy Gavriel Kay Take my advice, I don't use it anyway. Gemmell Mania : http://www.gemmellmania.co.uk > >There's a reason or two why Shadowknight's snare incoming mobs ... > > Are SK's still considered tanks? It's not an a.s question, it's just > that in the last few months every SK I've grouped with that was the MT > was a mana sieve on heals. But the warriors and Paladins pretty much > held their own nicely. Anyone can tank. Of course SK's can. Just have to remember the difference between top and bottom geared is likely to be higher these days. I guess, I haven't played for months.. /em spews more tripe into the ether..... >> >There's a reason or two why Shadowknight's snare incoming mobs ... >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >/em spews more tripe into the ether..... Anyone can tank for about 1.7 seconds. Of course it's not so much tanking at that point as hitting auto attack and then seeing Loading, Please Wait............... ~F >>> >There's a reason or two why Shadowknight's snare incoming mobs ... >>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > ~F Rangers are better tanks than many believe, I've been in alot of high groups where the rangers taken aggro from the main tank and held it much better, plus according to the clerics the mana drain has been about the same, in the end it all comes down to gear. >> ~F >Rangers are better tanks than many believe, I've been in alot of high groups Rangers make pretty good tanks on mobs that don't one round them. Sometimes you need a real warrior to stnad there long enough. In alt.games.everquest, "ppp ppp" <ln004i5096@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: >Rangers are better tanks than many believe, I've been in alot of high groups >where the rangers taken aggro from the main tank and held it much better, >plus according to the clerics the mana drain has been about the same, in the >end it all comes down to gear. In equivalent gear, fighting challenging content, rangers are worse thanks than warriors (in terms of mana for healing). In better gear than the warrior, fighting challenging content, sometimes rangers are able to tank more efficiently - but this is true of any class. I spent 3 hours in WoS with the cleric as main tank and main healer, chain killing faster than I have done before or since. In equivalent gear on trivial content, any class can tank. Comparisons are only useful when taking into account a similar level of gear, progression, levels and AA. I've been in a lot of high groups where my warrior loses aggro to no one and tanks better than any other character in the group. My level 70 raid geared wizard tanked for a group in BoT when the MT was afk, for about 30 minutes, it was more efficient than letting the 62nd level SK tank. SignatureTony Evans (ICQ : 170850) Recommended Author : Guy Gavriel Kay When I want your opinion, I'll give it to you. Meet the wife : http://www.darkstorm.co.uk/grete > Ok, so, the group: ranger, warrior, cleric, chanter,shaman, and > rogue. Ranger is pulling. Ranger comes back with snared mobs, and [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I have a feeling this is a case of "I did 20 levels last week > so of course I know how to play my class" That sounds like exactly it. Sounds like a tank/ranger problem since the tank couldn't get agro and the ranger couldn't dump it. Any compentent high agro class has tools and techniques for dumping agro when necessary. Some of these techniques reduce DPS, but that is ok. >the tank couldn't get agro and the ranger couldn't dump it. Any Actually the tank *could* get aggro, just for a second. Then our mob would turn right back to the ranger... I actually think the tank was fine and the ranger wasn't ummm totally competent :-) > Ok, so, the group: ranger, warrior, cleric, chanter,shaman, and > rogue. Ranger is pulling. Ranger comes back with snared mobs, and > proceeds to keep aggro for long enough to require multiple heals. Warrior > says in group "Can you use jolt, please?" Ranger says "Sorry, don't > have spell slot open for it. Why don't you taunt?" This guy sounds like an idiot. But just wanted to point out one thing. Sometimes a Ranger can get very, very annoyed with a tank who cannot produce any hate. It is the Ranger's job to keep hate low at the beginning of the fight but the tank's job after that, the way I see it. If you have to keep jolting throughout, you are seriously reducing your DPS. Once again, this guy is probably an idiot, and a Ranger should ALWAYS have jolt up. Heck I keep it up when soloing. > Soooooo... My question is WHAT spells could that ranger have > needed more than jolt and what could we have done here besides letting > the cleric pull? :-) My understanding was that rangers ALWAYS used > jolt. I do run out of spells slots, actually. I like to keep a heal, jolt, 2 nukes, harmo, tangling weeds, earthen embrace, and root up. If mobs are tashing, cure poison, if there is a necro, regen, if the tank is whining for a DS, then my DS, if I am tanking or may need to grab agro, flame lick, etc.. So even with 9 spell slots I can find myself wanting 10. But let's just say that if I need to rebuff, I drop the nukes, not jolt. |
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