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Game Forum / Role Playing Games / EverQuest / June 2005EQ2: Thoughts on Splitpaw?
I'm wondering what everybody's opinion on the second adventure pack is? So far, I am really enjoying it. I've spent some time in there with my alt - right now he is a 28 conj. The zone definately seems beatable at that level while solo, and it is giving me a lot of practice using my pet to keep agro (until I start AE'ing everything :)). Seems like a good place to learn your class. I'm pretty sure I would be able to take it if I didn't keep getting interrupted :P I've only been in there once with my main (50 assassin). I wasn't able to spend much time in there (only able the inactive transporter and one group beyond). The groups with more than one caster are definately a pain, but the interrupt helps a lot... it'd be a lot easier if it was on a shorter than 10sec timer though ;) The zone seems well done, I like the twisting caves and narrow passages. There is a generous amount of loot, and so far my lowbie has managed to get just over a gold from chests alone. I really like how it scales to your level. I went into the Bloodlines zone for the first time when it wasn't all gray and it surprised me how challenging it really was. When I went in with my main, I just blitzed through it. It is really cool to be able to clear it with both characters, even with such a large level differential. Has anybody else tried it out? Any other opinions on it? scritchy wrote: > I'm wondering what everybody's opinion on the second adventure pack > is? [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Has anybody else tried it out? Any other opinions on it? I spend quite a bit of time there since it went live. The exp. gain in there is awsome for a 28 Paladin. I am able to solo the entire zone (in the kidnapped version that is). I have made several gold from the chest that have dropped. I also love the way the zone scales to your level. It would be nice if their were more zones that did that. __________________________________________________________ Submitted by: Vidden This message was submitted through the Erollisi Marr Forum > scritchy wrote: > > I'm wondering what everybody's opinion on the second adventure pack [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > I also love the way the zone scales to your level. It would be nice if > their were more zones that did that. Personally I think its a design flaw. I don't have an issue with zones that have multiple personalities... e.g. a 12th level instance/mission/task/expedition, and a 45th level instance. That's just efficient use of level design coding effort, and allows players to enjoy a zone and come back later to enjoy it in a new fresh way. But there's something profoundly disatisfying about zones that scale to my level. For one thing its entirely like those racing games that scale your opponents to your skill level. (e.g. NFS3) If you crash they all slow down an wait for you to catch up. There is simply no sense of real accomplishment or progress when fighting opponents that simply perpetually scale up with you. To really drive the point home... imagine if the whole game worked like that: it would be EQUIVALENT to removing levelling from the game. If mobs are always scaled to the same relative difficulty to you what exactly is the point of gaining a "level"? In EQ you start at level 1, and the newbie yard trash are an even fight, with some wandering yellows and even reds that require at least a small group to take down.. Would the game be more fun if at level 2 the newbie yard trash are an even fight with some wandering yellows and even reds that require at least a small group to take down... how about at level 40 when the newbie yard trash are an even fight with some wandering yellows and even reds that require at least a small group to take down... That's progression :p I do like the idea of a mid level zone to have an "event instanced" version for high levels to com. e.g. Mistmoore is 20-40 zone, but you can get a 70th level instanced version for the "Axis of Evil Meeting" where security has been really beefed up and there are some visiting named that drop loot unique to the instance. A 2nd problem with zones that scale is that it undermines high level exploration. Lets go do splitpaw at 50 might be high level but its long since lost its sense of adventure. There are no new sights to see, no falling for traps, pits, no secret doors, no figuring out how the zone is laid out or where its deepest corners are etc... you found out about all that at level 4. As long as its only a few zones its bearable... but if much of the highend game becomes retreads of what you did already people will burn out MUCH faster. > To really drive the point home... imagine if the whole game worked like > that: it would be EQUIVALENT to removing levelling from the game. At some level the whole game does work like that. Fight a level 3 melee spider in a newbie garden. Fight a level 30 melee spider in some other zone. Fight a level 63 melee spider in yet another zone. What's the difference? Art, right? > If mobs are always scaled to the same relative difficulty to you what > exactly is the point of gaining a "level"? What's the point now? You get to see new mob models and zone graphics. Other than that, it's largely the same - right? And, for quite a bit of the mobs, it's just coloring on the same ol' mob anyway. > A 2nd problem with zones that scale is that it undermines high level > exploration. It's possible to level from 20 to 50 in Splitpaw. I'm not sure anyone would actually do that -- it's horribly inefficient -- but it's possible. So what? Personally I'd rather have the people who want to face solo content without the danger of group adds or having to get around group mobs "locked away" in a solo instance anyway... Anyway, look at the reality of the situation: it's an adventure pack, a minimal purchase. Because it scales, they don't need to worry about limiting their potential sales. Everyone between level 20 and level 50 can buy it and enjoy the content, all at a fixed cost in their development budget. The only difference is the level 20 fury-type mob for a level 20 becomes a level 50 fury-type mob for a level 50. Instead of a rare T3 drop it's a rare T5 drop, or T5 armor instead of T3 armor. Except for the art that goes with it, that's pretty much the only difference between fighting a gnoll camp in TS at 20 and a lizardman camp in Feerott at 35 anyway. IMO it's a rather elegant solution for what is a minor piece of the game -- I hope they do all the *adventure packs* that way. > > To really drive the point home... imagine if the whole game worked like > > that: it would be EQUIVALENT to removing levelling from the game. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > some other zone. Fight a level 63 melee spider in yet another zone. > What's the difference? Art, right? You may recall that one of the big complaints about OoW was that we were in point of fact reduced to fighting rats and bats AGAIN. Art is important. :) Moreover, we want new arrangements of mobs, new pathing to figure out, new static spawns, new groupings, and yes... even new zones. And while fighting a 50th level rat in OoW is still fighting a rat, at least its not a rat in the freeport newbie yard. In some sense you have -progressed-. > > If mobs are always scaled to the same relative difficulty to you what > > exactly is the point of gaining a "level"? > > What's the point now? The sense of progression, the sense of increased power, of accomplishment. You go back to the freeport newbie yard and slaugter rats with impunity... That they aren't still even cons that are "a gamble" is crucial. > You get to see new mob models and zone > graphics. Other than that, it's largely the same - right? And, for > quite a bit of the mobs, it's just coloring on the same ol' mob anyway. True enough, but for most people, that starts making a difference. Which is why there were complaints about the rats and bats in OoW. > > A 2nd problem with zones that scale is that it undermines high level > > exploration. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > solo content without the danger of group adds or having to get > around group mobs "locked away" in a solo instance anyway... Lol. :) > Anyway, look at the reality of the situation: it's an adventure pack, a > minimal purchase. Because it scales, they don't need to worry about [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > difference between fighting a gnoll camp in TS at 20 and a lizardman > camp in Feerott at 35 anyway. Except you actually have to move from TS to Feerott and learn the subtleties of feerott. Its not big deal, but you've progressed, you've outgrown one and accepted the challenge of the next. It may not seem 'grandiose' but its surprising important. Players like defeating an encounter and moving to the next... defeating the encounter, gaining a level and defeating the same encounter that's scaled up one level higher has ZERO appeal to practically anybody. Advancement is important. Remember those old looping arcarde games, with 1 or if you were lucky 3 levels you just did over and over and over again while you watched your score go up until you mistepped and died. There is a reason those died out when technology allowed games to be more complex. Once you figure out splitpaw at 20, you can keep coming back until your keyboard wears out, and you'll never feel like you've advanced, beyond that its dropping level appropriate gear, which it is balanced around the assumption you will be wearing it so its relative difficulty stays the same. The number next to your character keeps going up, but everything else stays the same and you might as well be playing one of those old atari games. > IMO it's a rather elegant solution for what is a minor piece of the > game -- I hope they do all the *adventure packs* that way. Sure. For a one month event adventure pack, yeah you want a single piece of content that gets consumed by the entire playerbase all at once regardless of level with minimal coding effort. The problem is that the OP wants to see *more* of the game work like this when its ONLY remotely appropriate for one-off 'adventures' like this. As a long term fixture of the game they are the ultimate pointless treadmill. They must remain a small part of the game, used very sparingly. The odd adventure pack is just fine... but it should never be applied to the game as a whole. The point is scalable content is cool because anyone can play them regardless of their level; that makes them ideally suited for "story arc event" adventures. The problem is that they'll still be able to play them and they'll be exactly the same relatively difficulty forever. The solution is remove the forever. They should expire. The event should end. Obviously players might not be thrilled about shelling out for a 'temporary' zone... but then THAT is exactly the sort of content their monthly subscription fees SHOULD be covering. If they want to sell 4 dollar micro expansions, create the zone and a dozen missions for it 6 at various level intervals so everyone can do somehting with it out of the gate, and 6 at endgame so that high level players can get some fun out of it. > Sure. For a one month event adventure pack, yeah you want a single piece > of content that gets consumed by the entire playerbase all at once > regardless of level with minimal coding effort. The problem is that the > OP wants to see *more* of the game work like this when its ONLY remotely > appropriate for one-off 'adventures' like this. Just a note, not once did I say I wanted to see more of the scaling. I said it was really nice. I like having the area accessable to both my 50 and my 28, and it still be challenging for both. I think having full outdoor zones that scale would suck. That would ruin a lot for me. I don't think it is bad with a dungeon that scales. I definately wouldn't want to see it overdone though. > > Sure. For a one month event adventure pack, yeah you want a single piece > > of content that gets consumed by the entire playerbase all at once [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Just a note, not once did I say I wanted to see more of the scaling. Right it was the post I responded to, Vidden. Sorry about the confusion. > I > said it was really nice. I like having the area accessable to both my > 50 and my 28, and it still be challenging for both. You don't need scaling zones for that. Within reason many EQ1 zones are like that. In fact most dungeons from Unrest to SolA to LGuk to Befallen were suitable for level ranges spanning 20-30 levels. And what's more as you levelled up you could return to the dungeon and do a different piece of it. Its more fun like that imo. LDoNs are dull because they are exactly the same as you level up. Lower Guk or Solusek B is fun, as you level up you push deeper and deeper into new areas and new named. There's a reason to go back every few levels and see what you can do. You've seen splitpaw with your 28th level character, and done it all. What's the incentive to go back later and do the same thing again once the novelty of the 'new zone' has worn off. There's never going to be a question of 'can I do this now?' or 'How deep can I go?' The answers are always "of course you can! we scaled it to your capabilities", and "all the way, we scaled it to your capabilities... just like every other time you've ever been here". >> > Sure. For a one month event adventure pack, yeah you want a single >> > piece [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > the way, we scaled it to your capabilities... just like every other time > you've ever been here". i can see the pros and cons. yeah, the zone could quickly lose its excitability (for lack of a better word) going deeper into zone as you get more powerful is fun and pretty exciting. now if you just want to solo, or cant find a group, or just want to be on a few minutes, this zone is ALWAYS available to you. log in, run there, and bam, you got a whole zone to yourself that you can handle no matter what. of course, with the solo nerf across the game, thats not so big of a deal anymore. lee > now if you just want to solo, or cant find a group, or just want to be on a > few minutes, this zone is ALWAYS available to you. log in, run there, and > bam, you got a whole zone to yourself that you can handle no matter what. That is one of the key features I like, and didn't even think about it until this morning. After waking up way too early, but not really enough time to do anything else, I hit Delving before work. It was great that it was just a short run to the teleporter and I could do something productive while waiting until it was a more reasonable time to wander into work. I like the fact that it will be there to do that no matter what level that character is. > now if you just want to solo, or cant find a group, or just want to be on > a few minutes, this zone is ALWAYS available to you. log in, run there, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > lee Totally agree. I am a person that likes to group and hang out with friends and guildies, but there are times when I log in with things already "in progress" or at odd off hours where there just isn't a whole lot going on. Zones like these are an option in such cases. I, like others, really don't want to see this done to an extreme, if I wanted a mission-oriented mmorpg I'd play MxO or CoH. <snip> > now if you just want to solo, or cant find a group, or just want to be on a > few minutes, this zone is ALWAYS available to you. log in, run there, and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > lee what solo nerf? > <snip> >> now if you just want to solo, or cant find a group, or just want to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> > what solo nerf? I was thinking the same. I assume he is talking about when they made soling much much easier.  SignatureOn Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr> Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons On Steamfont in <Insanity Plea> Graeme, 34 Dwarven Mystic, 24 Sage, Treasure Hunter Aviv, 15 Gnome Brawler, 30 Provisioner > <snip> >> now if you just want to solo, or cant find a group, or just want to be on [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> lee > what solo nerf? awhile back when a buttload of mobs went from needing a group to kill to being able to solo them. lee >> <snip> >>> now if you just want to solo, or cant find a group, or just want to [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > awhile back when a buttload of mobs went from needing a group to kill > to being able to solo them. That would not be something that most people would consider a nerf... SignatureOn Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr> Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons On Steamfont in <Insanity Plea> Graeme, 35 Dwarven Mystic, 24 Sage, Treasure Hunter Aviv, 15 Gnome Brawler, 30 Provisioner >>><snip> >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > That would not be something that most people would consider a nerf... Unless replacing a normal bat with a nerf bat somehow made you more dangerous. Perhaps it is a +3 vorpal nerf bat? Or the one that Macaulay Culkin fears? http://pauldavidson.blogs.com/wfme/2004/11/drinking_coffee.html I am amazed that people moan about the changes to some mobs in some zones. Perhaps if they want to find a challenge, they should try the gnolls in TS that are ++, or go in any of the dungeons, or nek forest (there's no way that that zone is as easy as TS, which is probably why the 'evil' population of adventurers all seems stuffed into groups in TS at that level. Stormhold is woefully hard to get a group in, which is a shame as they obviously did a lot of work on it. Try soloing there at the appropriate level, or doing the quests that make you kill 40 of the same mob solo. Ugh. Some areas are now more accessible to soloers. However, nothing compares to the loot, xp, and number of zones available to groups, and it's only the pathetic feebleness of groupers that makes them want to stay still in antonica and TS and grind xp and never risk the dungeons. >>>><snip> >>>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> >> That would not be something that most people would consider a nerf... if a player or item has an ability or a stat weakened, its considered a nerf. a mob is now weakened and not as strong as it used to be. A is to B as C is to ___ as someone who solos pretty regularly, i wasnt griping about it, btw. [piggybacking on this post because the one i want to respond to is gone from my server already] >>>>><snip> >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > [piggybacking on this post because the one i want to respond to is > gone from my server already] That would not be a solo nerf, that would be a mob nerf then. As I said, most people would not consider that a nerf... SignatureOn Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr> Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons On Steamfont in <Insanity Plea> Graeme, 35 Dwarven Mystic, 24 Sage, Treasure Hunter Aviv, 15 Gnome Brawler, 30 Provisioner >>>>>><snip> >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > That would not be a solo nerf, that would be a mob nerf then. As I said, > most people would not consider that a nerf... Twas a much needed mob and quest nerf so suddenly solo play was enjoyable and possible at higher lvls Tend to solo a lot Grimchrim >>>>>>><snip> >>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Tend to solo a lot I give up :b I do agree it was a needed solo enhancement... SignatureOn Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr> Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons On Steamfont in <Insanity Plea> Graeme, 35 Dwarven Mystic, 24 Sage, Treasure Hunter Aviv, 15 Gnome Brawler, 30 Provisioner 42 wrote: > Right it was the post I responded to, Vidden. Sorry about the > confusion. Wha?.... I didnt say that lol, watch who you are quoting there! __________________________________________________________ Submitted by: Vidden This message was submitted through the Erollisi Marr Forum > 42 wrote: > > > > Right it was the post I responded to, Vidden. Sorry about the > > confusion. > > Wha?.... I didnt say that lol, watch who you are quoting there! "I also love the way the zone scales to your level. It would be nice if their were more zones that did that." Your words. To be clear I never claimed you wanted the entire game to be like that; that was my extrapoloation. But you certainly did say you wanted more of it. >>>To really drive the point home... imagine if the whole game worked like >>>that: it would be EQUIVALENT to removing levelling from the game. [quoted text clipped - 107 lines] > the gate, and 6 at endgame so that high level players can get some fun > out of it. I'm a 26 paladin, and I like being a mighty force in the caves, a commanding presence in antonica, a soldier in thundering steppes and a scared rabbit in nektulos. I also like the level adjusting dungeons. I think the game should have both playstyles because a) the instanced dungeons do allow for instant gaming b) the normal areas offer a depth of experience. That said, I prefer outdoor zones where i can run if it goes bad. 8-] The boxes are cute but i don't know how to explode the walls yet, i can't target them alas. I hope it becomes clearer later. Ah well, back to grinding carbon inks!! > I'm wondering what everybody's opinion on the second adventure pack is? > So far, I am really enjoying it. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Has anybody else tried it out? Any other opinions on it? kind of off topic a bit, but still kinda related.... are you guys playing on a test server? i thought the adventure pack wasnt live. and if it is live, how do you zone into it? lee > are you guys playing on a test server? > i thought the adventure pack wasnt live. > and if it is live, how do you zone into it? > > lee I think they are talking about the free zone you get with pre-ordering it, unless of course they are on test and playing the full thing. -- Leo >> are you guys playing on a test server? >> i thought the adventure pack wasnt live. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > -- > Leo aahh....well i pre-ordered last nite...i better run to TS and see if i can find the place! lee > aahh....well i pre-ordered last nite...i better run to TS and see if i can > find the place! Yeah, I'm talking about the pre-order on a live server. There are two ways to get into the zone (one zone, two names - "Delving into the Darkness" and "Captive Audience"). The first is to run up to a transporter, right click and use it. The second is to get into a fight with the group of gnolls around the transporter and the 'abductor' will kidnap you and throw you into the 'Captive Audience' zone. I know of two transporters, on the north side of the north road in TS. One is near the griffon fields area, but near the east mountain that lines that area (I think that is where it is, only saw it once). The other is just past Tower 2, next to the west mountains that box in that undead starter area. Getting the starting quest might require a zone or log before it is added to your journal. I had that problem also. >> aahh....well i pre-ordered last nite...i better run to TS and see if i >> can [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Getting the starting quest might require a zone or log before it is > added to your journal. I had that problem also. thanks so much for the info!! i saw one of those teleporters a few nights....didnt even make the connection. thanks lee >>aahh....well i pre-ordered last nite...i better run to TS and see if i can >>find the place! [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Getting the starting quest might require a zone or log before it is > added to your journal. I had that problem also. I can get abducted but right clicking doesn't seem to do anything. I found 2 trasnporters along the north east rd in TS. Do these work for "delving"? Ok I need help. Is the "abducted" version the solo one? If so, how do I get abducted? I tried attacking the abducter gnoll and nothing happened. I also tried hailing him. I clicked on the teleporter thing and it took me to an instanced zone which doesn't appear to be solo because there are big groups of gnolls here and there. Thanks for the help! > I'm wondering what everybody's opinion on the second adventure pack is? > So far, I am really enjoying it. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Has anybody else tried it out? Any other opinions on it? i had the exact opposite result. i tried to click the transporter, nothing. i attacked the abductor, and after 2 hits i was zoning in. of course, i hadnt claimed or inspected the shard yet, and i cant seem to get the quest to ever update...so im wondering if i found a bug. lee > Ok I need help. > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >> >> Has anybody else tried it out? Any other opinions on it? > i had the exact opposite result. > i tried to click the transporter, nothing. i attacked the abductor, and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > lee Actually, you did the same thing I did. The abduction zone does not do what needs to be done to update the quest. I had to zone back out and use the terraporter to get into the proper instance. THERE I was able to clear the zone and get to the Fanatic at the bottom, get his key and open the chest on the platform I had to move crates to climb upon to get to. But then, no spoiler here...<grins> SignatureFingon Grancoeur, Paladin of Resolute on Lucan D'Lere >> i had the exact opposite result. >> i tried to click the transporter, nothing. i attacked the abductor, and [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > But then, no spoiler here...<grins> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo i kept going back to the same one!!!! and was REALLY fed up with it! thanks for the info. do you know, can you bring a group down with you? assuming of course all players have the zone files? lee |
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