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Original EQ Had IMMERSION

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Rhogar - 27 Jan 2005 16:20 GMT
The level of IMMERSION within EQ1 has been dropping sharply:

* Levels 1-10 zip by too fast now, as though the developers think they
are worthless.  No wonder they now place next to zero emphesis on the
starting cities.

* They made one big city, PoK, that everybody goes to so now the culture
of the individual cities -- EQ1's biggest charm -- has become virtually
worthless.  No characters truly start as warriors of Halas or paladins
of Felwithe anymore -- they have been streamlined to start as slaves in
their starting zone.  Players no longer identify themselves as "yes, I
started in my noble city of Kaladim", instead it is:  "I started like
you in the same place, doing the same thing, and a slave at that." (that
is the net effect of their new slave revolt tutorial).  IMMERSION was
taken away right there.

* Insta-travel abounds so the world has shrunk to nothingness.  If
everything can be reached within minutes then nothing is worth reaching

* trolls lost Grobb and get shafted in everything.  Trolls no longer
have anything and are regarded as nothings rather than dangerous
dwellers of Grobb.  Remove all racial  xp penalties (and bonuses!)

* Nights are now bright enough so even night-blind people do not need a
light source.  It was great back when, as a night-blind Erudite I had a
moonlit night and was greatful things were just a touch brighter; other
nights I would sometimes run inside Blackburrow because there was more
light and things were too dark outside in Qeynos Hills.  Things were
immersive then.  Often you would see night-blind races running around
with smoking torches, or a torch coming at you through the darkness.  
Whoa, that was cool.

* They might as well go the EQ2 route and remove the charming cultural
cities and make the characters originate within their new tutorial zone
and have no option whatsoever of starting life within their own native
newbie zones.

* newbie life was better back when you had to go find where your
guildmaster was (hey, that was a quest in itself), and strive hard to
save up for your first large bag.  Now they give away backpacks to the
idiot newbies.

* instanced dungeons mean you cannot just walk by and see people
fighting in the EQ world.  That in itself was a pleasure.  You could
walk by, see them fighting, chat, give advice, perhaps buff them a bit.

Some true improvements have been made for EQ1, but most of the changes
have ruined the EQ experience for me.  They have grown this game so
"horizontally" and spread the populations out over so many zones that
rarely do I see many people grouping anymore.  They should of grown the
game more "vertically", adding the new zones to the original 3
continents.  They could of fleshed out the continent of Odus by adding a
few more zones there and arranging them so more traffic goes through
Erudin & Paineel, to bring more life to those areas.  Or they could add
high-level dungeons to Faydwer to bring more people there so the old
charm of that place continued as a meeting place for the inhabitants of
that continent.

Much of the charm of the original EQ is gone.  The developers will never
fathom the "charm" or "immersion" element.  It was actually comforting
to walk through East Commons and here the people trying to get a good
bargain on something; the bazaar not only took away that charm but
multiplied the twinking problem times a hundred-fold.  The original
developers would work legally to stop EQ items from being eBayed, but
the current developers let IGE sell platinum by the boatload.

Whatever good elements exist within EQ2 (there aren't many) could of
been worked into EQ1, but what is going to harm EQ1 AND EQ2 the most is
there being two versions of the same EQ.  And why fight for Norrath in
EQ1 when you know everything is doomed to destruction inevitably anyhow?  
Why fight for the glory of Halas when it later is destroyed in the
timeline in EQ2?  Why enjoy the pleasures of Rivervale when it is
doomed?

EQ1 in its infancy was more about role-play and IMMERSION, and it
incorporated it well from the very beginning.  Roaming about Qeynos you
would see maybe a few barbarians, some humans, and some Erudites,
because they belonged there.  Any high elves you saw, were looked at
with surprise because they were great journeyers and had either managed
to hassle with a wizard (hmm, even those teleports should be removed) or
had traveled the dangerous path through the countryside.  That path
between Freeport and Qeynos was made dangerous to low-level people FOR A
REASON, it added to immersion.

The slow boat rides were FOR IMMERSION; you felt it was real.  The long
treks were for IMMERSION.  The dark was for IMMERSION.  Starting towns
were for IMMERSION.  Initial poverty was for IMMERSION.  Struggling to
buy your next meal was IMMERSION.

That immersion is forever gone.
Jason Hawryluk - 27 Jan 2005 19:12 GMT
/agree

> The level of IMMERSION within EQ1 has been dropping sharply:
>
[quoted text clipped - 86 lines]
>
> That immersion is forever gone.
Graeme Faelban - 27 Jan 2005 20:05 GMT
"Jason Hawryluk" <jh@3gcomm.fr> wrote in news:41f93ca7$0$6595$8fcfb975
@news.wanadoo.fr:

>> The level of IMMERSION within EQ1 has been dropping sharply:

<snip>
> /agree

Thank you oh so very much for topposting and quoting the entire article...

Signature

On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont in <Insanity Plea>
Graeme, 22 Dwarven Mystic, 20 Sage
Aviv, 11 Gnome Braeler, 14 Craftsman

Gary Beldon - 27 Jan 2005 21:27 GMT
> "Jason Hawryluk" <jh@3gcomm.fr> wrote in news:41f93ca7$0$6595$8fcfb975
> @news.wanadoo.fr:
> > /agree
>
> Thank you oh so very much for topposting and quoting the entire article...

I think Wanadoo must be the French equivalent of AOL...
Paleghost - 27 Jan 2005 21:49 GMT
I remember going to BlackBurrow with my iksar for faction.. and people
where like.. wow! an iksar!

Back then faction ment everything.. Now everyone is just good ol buddy
buddy.
Jason Hawryluk - 28 Jan 2005 13:34 GMT
> > "Jason Hawryluk" <jh@3gcomm.fr> wrote in news:41f93ca7$0$6595$8fcfb975
> > @news.wanadoo.fr:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> I think Wanadoo must be the French equivalent of AOL...

Was that supposed to be a poke at the French ?
Moopy - 28 Jan 2005 13:52 GMT
>> > Thank you oh so very much for topposting and quoting the entire
> article...
>>
>> I think Wanadoo must be the French equivalent of AOL...
>>
> Was that supposed to be a poke at the French ?

Not unless it was also a poke at all Americans. It was a suggestion
that the ISP's that market themselves as the 'easy mass market choice
for technical illiterates' (We'll get you shopping on the interweb
in no time, and you can listen to music too!) tend to attract the
technical illiterates. They in turn make.... mistakes.... when
learning online ettiquette, sometimes get their fingers scorched,
and then show their stuff by either saying 'oops, didn't know, wont
do that again' or going full on the offensive demanding that every
established user updates their standards of behaviour to fit the
newcomer.

You can probably see why the second mode of behaviour receives a
pretty derisive response.

Matt
ritchie - 30 Jan 2005 05:45 GMT
>>"Jason Hawryluk" <jh@3gcomm.fr> wrote in news:41f93ca7$0$6595$8fcfb975
>>@news.wanadoo.fr:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> I think Wanadoo must be the French equivalent of AOL...

You might be happy to know that AOL/CS2000/Walmart
Connect/WhateverElseTheyOwn are shutting down their usenet servers in
the next week or two.  :p
Jason Hawryluk - 28 Jan 2005 13:33 GMT
> Thank you oh so very much for topposting and quoting the entire article...

oop's
Palindrome - 27 Jan 2005 23:21 GMT
>/agree

WOW!  Shame you quoted a very lengthy posting to add ONE word to it.
You don't use newsgroups much, eh?  Well, not based on THAT
performance.

Palindrome
Jason Hawryluk - 28 Jan 2005 13:35 GMT
> >/agree
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Palindrome

Yes SHAME ON ME !!!! get over yourself...
Zarris - At home - 28 Jan 2005 14:03 GMT
>> >/agree
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Yes SHAME ON ME !!!! get over yourself...

Woohoo!! Ignorant AND an a.shole... The perfect combination for the
Killfile.

Z
Jason Hawryluk - 28 Jan 2005 17:09 GMT
> >> WOW!  Shame you quoted a very lengthy posting to add ONE word to it.
> >> You don't use newsgroups much, eh?  Well, not based on THAT
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Woohoo!! Ignorant AND an a.shole... The perfect combination for the
> Killfile.

Did you even read what he posted, how would you responde ? I would assume
the same. And furthermore your swear word is a better combination then my
response.

So to all Excuse me for top posting and not cutting, I was in a hurry. Not
like you have "NEVER" done the same?
John Burton - 27 Jan 2005 19:13 GMT
> The level of IMMERSION within EQ1 has been dropping sharply:

[cut]

> The slow boat rides were FOR IMMERSION; you felt it was real.  The long
> treks were for IMMERSION.  The dark was for IMMERSION.  Starting towns
> were for IMMERSION.  Initial poverty was for IMMERSION.  Struggling to
> buy your next meal was IMMERSION.
>
> That immersion is forever gone.

I don't agree with everything in your post but I agree 100% with the
conclusion. Dozens of small changes, each of which seemed like an improvement
and got rid of something annoying have combined to make the game worse, not
better, and that's the reason.
the wharf rat - 27 Jan 2005 20:37 GMT
>I don't agree with everything in your post but I agree 100% with the
>conclusion. Dozens of small changes, each of which seemed like an improvement
>and got rid of something annoying have combined to make the game worse, not
>better, and that's the reason.

    Hmmmm well I played for a while in 199? when it first appeared
and quit in frustration over long stretches of doing nothing but getting
to a place to do something, not to mention that I expected more role
playing ala' my D&D experiences but didn't see much.

    I came back in 2003 to the same lack of RP but a much more
convenient game.  Heck, if I wanted to take hour long boat trips I'd
install EQ: Boat Adventures. :-)

    One man's immersion is another man's why bother I guess.
Seeq Endestroi - 27 Jan 2005 19:47 GMT
>The level of IMMERSION within EQ1 has been dropping sharply:

--snip--

>EQ1 in its infancy was more about role-play and IMMERSION, and it
>incorporated it well from the very beginning.  Roaming about Qeynos you
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>between Freeport and Qeynos was made dangerous to low-level people FOR A
>REASON, it added to immersion.

I never made the run from Freeport to Qeynos until recently.  I was quite simply too
*frightened*.

I recall getting some social aggro as I was XPing in the northwest corner of the West
Commonlands.  I drove my train to the Kith zone.  When I saw the words "Kithicor Forest"
on my screen, I froze in fear, praying that my train in WC would wander off, and I could
zone back, before something came running out of the nasty dark forest to eat me.

>The slow boat rides were FOR IMMERSION; you felt it was real.  The long
>treks were for IMMERSION.  The dark was for IMMERSION.  Starting towns
>were for IMMERSION.  Initial poverty was for IMMERSION.  Struggling to
>buy your next meal was IMMERSION.

/agree absolutely.  About the boats, I have one thing to say: /gems

I would *love* to play on a retro server.  Say, just the old world, or maybe even up to
Kunark, with all the bugs and exploits patched.  **sigh**

Best regards,

Tim ==

(substitute 'tcsys.com' for  'nospam.co.uk')
_________________

Seeq Endestroi
Paladin of Mithanial Marr, The Rathe
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=507035

Grave Wisdom / Grave Intentions - a Rathe Guild
http://www.gravewisdom.com
Rumbledor - 27 Jan 2005 20:32 GMT
> The level of IMMERSION within EQ1 has been dropping sharply:

I agree completely, though maybe not with all the reasons you cite. (Oi,
this could get ugly...)

> * Levels 1-10 zip by too fast now, as though the developers think they
> are worthless.  No wonder they now place next to zero emphesis on the
> starting cities.

You can thank the player base for that one. Remember "The Vision"?
People can say what they want, but I think it had much more of the right
idea than the wrong.

> * They made one big city, PoK, that everybody goes to so now the
> culture of the individual cities -- EQ1's biggest charm -- has become
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> a slave at that." (that is the net effect of their new slave revolt
> tutorial).  IMMERSION was taken away right there.

I never really thought of it that way. I don't know if that's a big
factor or not. No matter. By the time the new tutorial was implemented,
all hope was lost anyway.

> * Insta-travel abounds so the world has shrunk to nothingness.  If
> everything can be reached within minutes then nothing is worth
> reaching

Yup.

> * trolls lost Grobb and get shafted in everything.  Trolls no longer
> have anything and are regarded as nothings rather than dangerous
> dwellers of Grobb.  Remove all racial  xp penalties (and bonuses!)

I have often wondered how the heck Troll Nation could have been overrun
by frogs. Maybe it was because they had no clerics and CH chains.

Racial penalties made a lot of sense back in the day, but not for some
time now.

> * Nights are now bright enough so even night-blind people do not need
> a light source.  It was great back when, as a night-blind Erudite I
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> night-blind races running around with smoking torches, or a torch
> coming at you through the darkness.  Whoa, that was cool.

Yup.

> * They might as well go the EQ2 route and remove the charming cultural
> cities and make the characters originate within their new tutorial
> zone and have no option whatsoever of starting life within their own
> native newbie zones.

At this point it doesn't matter. Except for the true newbie, all value
the starting cities offer has been lost.

> * newbie life was better back when you had to go find where your
> guildmaster was (hey, that was a quest in itself), and strive hard to
> save up for your first large bag.  Now they give away backpacks to the
> idiot newbies.

Idiot? A bit harsh there. The complimentary backpack is one change that
I applauded. One of the most frustrating things I can remember from my
first few new characters was not having enough inventory/bank slots.

> * instanced dungeons mean you cannot just walk by and see people
> fighting in the EQ world.  That in itself was a pleasure.  You could
> walk by, see them fighting, chat, give advice, perhaps buff them a
> bit.

Honestly though, LDoN aside, are there really that many instanced
dungeons? I don't seem to come across too many others in the middle of a
battle though, now that you mention it.

> Some true improvements have been made for EQ1, but most of the changes
> have ruined the EQ experience for me.  They have grown this game so
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> old charm of that place continued as a meeting place for the
> inhabitants of that continent.

Quite true. Still, people wanted new stuff, so what were they to do?

> Much of the charm of the original EQ is gone.  The developers will
> never fathom the "charm" or "immersion" element.  It was actually
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> eBayed, but the current developers let IGE sell platinum by the
> boatload.

Oh, I think the devs have a very good idea of what contributes to charm
and immersion. After all, I'm sure many are players themselves.
Unfortunately when they bowed to too many customer demands, they wound
up with a situation where they had strayed too far from what made the
game famous and great in the first place. It's unfortunate in this case
that people demanded instant gratification over long-term rewards.

> Whatever good elements exist within EQ2 (there aren't many) could of
> been worked into EQ1, but what is going to harm EQ1 AND EQ2 the most
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> in the timeline in EQ2?  Why enjoy the pleasures of Rivervale when it
> is doomed?

That part doesn't bother me at all, really. I don't really connect the
two that much. I mean, sure, they're obviously linked in terms of lore,
but the games are different enough to stand on their own just fine.

Perhaps your point is more of a philosophical issue. In that case, the
characters shouldn't know any of that in the first place. ;)

> EQ1 in its infancy was more about role-play and IMMERSION, and it
> incorporated it well from the very beginning.  Roaming about Qeynos
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> That immersion is forever gone.

I agree, but I also have to admit that it's also due partially to the
fact that you can never go home again.

Signature

Rumble
"Write something worth reading, or do something worth writing."
                                      -- Benjamin Franklin

42 - 27 Jan 2005 22:25 GMT
> > * newbie life was better back when you had to go find where your
> > guildmaster was (hey, that was a quest in itself), and strive hard to
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I applauded. One of the most frustrating things I can remember from my
> first few new characters was not having enough inventory/bank slots.

I disagree. Getting your first bag was a big step... but not a difficult
one. A small box was what 2 gold? Being able to actually afford an 8
gold backpack... now that was luxury :D

> > * instanced dungeons mean you cannot just walk by and see people
> > fighting in the EQ world.  That in itself was a pleasure.  You could
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> battle though, now that you mention it.
>  

Even if you include LDoNs they are literally holes in the ground. There
is no reason for anyone to be 'passing thru' anyway. So its sort of a
moot complaint.

 
> > EQ1 in its infancy was more about role-play and IMMERSION, and it
> > incorporated it well from the very beginning.  Roaming about Qeynos
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> > managed to hassle with a wizard (hmm, even those teleports should be
> > removed) or had traveled the dangerous path through the countryside.

That inevitably was going to end. The trip is not that dangerous for a
large number of classes even at low levels. An enchanter can safely do
it at like 4th.. but even a class with no invis/sow/ivu utility can
reasonably safely make the trip in their teens... provided they know the
way.

> > The slow boat rides were FOR IMMERSION; you felt it was real.

Unless the boat got stuck, or you fell into the ocean after zoning, or
the pad-thing in Erudin didn't come out to meet the boat, or you got
attacked by a shark through the bottom of the boat.

The boat as concept wasn't bad, when it worked. Unfortunately, too
often: it didn't work.

> > The
> > long treks were for IMMERSION.

And while I didn't mind making the long trek once to explore or meet a
group. Having my SK die in Trak's Teeth to an add when bound in Oggok
sucked. Its some 10 zones, and a boat ride, and very difficult to
shorten the trip... I can't bind my own soul... so have to find someone
else to do it for me... if no pure casters are around then i don't get
bound.

> > The dark was for IMMERSION.

And far too video card dependant. Some players couldn't see squat
running in the commonlands because their lanterns only worked when they
got close enough to a geometry vertex for the vertex lighting to kick
in.

The idea of darkness is great. But if you can't implement properly,
don't bother. What the point of making it dark, and then giving players
lanterns that don't work unless they are standing near a junction in the
geometry. In a flat zone like the commonlands or karanas.

Factor in random gamma correction from manufacturer to manufacturer and
two humans one running on a VoodooII and one running on a RivaTNT ...
one couldn't see 3 feet, one could see like it was a bright moonlit
night.
Graeme Faelban - 27 Jan 2005 22:35 GMT
>> > * newbie life was better back when you had to go find where your
>> > guildmaster was (hey, that was a quest in itself), and strive hard
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> difficult one. A small box was what 2 gold? Being able to actually
> afford an 8 gold backpack... now that was luxury :D

Lol, I got my first few bags from killing orcs as I recall.  Got another
for some quest or other.

>> > * instanced dungeons mean you cannot just walk by and see people
>> > fighting in the EQ world.  That in itself was a pleasure.  You
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> There is no reason for anyone to be 'passing thru' anyway. So its sort
> of a moot complaint.

Agreed, I think the complaint is more that people are now off in
instanced zones instead of in noninstanced areas, but, even that, is not
really true to a large degree.

>  
>> > EQ1 in its infancy was more about role-play and IMMERSION, and it
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> reasonably safely make the trip in their teens... provided they know
> the way.

It was quite the adventure for my level 9 shaman to make that trip the
first time.  I did not know the way really, having never been to the
zones, I had no invis of any type, didn't know about the potions.  I died
once on the way out there in NK to a griffawn.  I died once on the run
back at level 14 to a Highland Lion, which was when I first discovered
that some mobs can ran as fast as SoW.  Nonetheless, it was a blast.

>> > The slow boat rides were FOR IMMERSION; you felt it was real.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> The boat as concept wasn't bad, when it worked. Unfortunately, too
> often: it didn't work.

I did not start running into boat issues until well after Velious release
as I recall.

>> > The
>> > long treks were for IMMERSION.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> someone else to do it for me... if no pure casters are around then i
> don't get bound.

That was certainly an annoyance, but, I generally was able to find
someone to bind me, and always offered to bind others.

>> > The dark was for IMMERSION.
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> ... one couldn't see 3 feet, one could see like it was a bright
> moonlit night.

I remember trying to get in and out of Blackburrow with a torch, you
still could not see where you were going with my old Voodoo card.

Signature

On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont in <Insanity Plea>
Graeme, 22 Dwarven Mystic, 20 Sage
Aviv, 11 Gnome Braeler, 14 Craftsman

Rumbledor - 28 Jan 2005 14:30 GMT
>> > * newbie life was better back when you had to go find where your
>> > guildmaster was (hey, that was a quest in itself), and strive hard
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> difficult one. A small box was what 2 gold? Being able to actually
> afford an 8 gold backpack... now that was luxury :D

Well, I found starting with one bag to be just enough of an improvement
to facilitate practical inventory management. When you have to run back
to the bank or merchant every several minutes to avoid having to pass
over even the trivial loot you desperately need, it doesn't allow for
you to get very far at all from town or get started with much more
interesting than the rats at the city gates.

>> > EQ1 in its infancy was more about role-play and IMMERSION, and it
>> > incorporated it well from the very beginning.  Roaming about Qeynos
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> reasonably safely make the trip in their teens... provided they know
> the way.

I remember a few harrowing trips across zones that I thoroughly enjoyed
as a very low level character.

>> > The slow boat rides were FOR IMMERSION; you felt it was real.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> The boat as concept wasn't bad, when it worked. Unfortunately, too
> often: it didn't work.

I can probably count the number of times I had *any* trouble on a boat
on one hand, though I'll concede that the concept was far more sound
than the implementation by the mid to later expansions.

>> > The
>> > long treks were for IMMERSION.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> someone else to do it for me... if no pure casters are around then i
> don't get bound.

So you plan for it. You give the encounter a little more substance than
just popping up nearby, running in, killing something and running out. I
didn't normally have much trouble getting a bind when and where I needed
it though, and always made an effort to offer them when playing a
binding class.

>> > The dark was for IMMERSION.
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> ... one couldn't see 3 feet, one could see like it was a bright
> moonlit night.

True, I suppose. I had a VooDoo 3 card and never had any trouble, but I
can see how it would have been a problem for someone experiencing those
sort of problems.

Still, I think the game was better off with night-blindness than without
even under those circumstances. If I *had* had that sort of trouble due
to my graphics card, I would likely have just played a race that didn't
suffer from it. /shrug

Signature

Rumble
"Write something worth reading, or do something worth writing."
                                      -- Benjamin Franklin

42 - 28 Jan 2005 20:24 GMT
> Well, I found starting with one bag to be just enough of an improvement
> to facilitate practical inventory management. When you have to run back
> to the bank or merchant every several minutes to avoid having to pass
> over even the trivial loot you desperately need, it doesn't allow for
> you to get very far at all from town or get started with much more
> interesting than the rats at the city gates.

The rats & bugs & skells at the city gates were the only thing you could
kill. Where were you planning on going? By level 3 or so, you could have
easily had a small box or two, and maybe a spit or backpack for larger
items.

I always just either focussed on one type of mob to maximize stacking,
or grouped and had each person loot a differnt mob type. We'd easily get
a few gold each between trips to town. Rusty weapons were a gold all by
themselves... and if we managed a cracked staff... jackpot :D

> I can probably count the number of times I had *any* trouble on a boat
> on one hand, though I'll concede that the concept was far more sound
> than the implementation by the mid to later expansions.

I was hit by the 'erudin' raft was out of sync with the boat issue. That
doubled the amount of time to cross.

As far ending up in the ocean after zoning that seemed to affect specfic
people again and again... slow zoners in particular.

> >> > The
> >> > long treks were for IMMERSION.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> it though, and always made an effort to offer them when playing a
> binding class.

It wasn't bad at higher levels, but in the kunark/velious era getting a
bind in Qeynos or anywhere on Odus was brutal. I remember playing with
some freinds, and we'd decided to do Kerra Isle off Tox, so we took the
boat from Qeynos where we were bound, and arrived at the perpetual ghost
town of erudin. We waited around for a long while for a binder, and
never got one. (We weren't high enough to bind ourselves.)

You see it wasn't the *trip* that we objected to. It was the lack of
soulbinders, particularly around 10th level... high enough to get to low
level out of the way places, but not high enough to bind.

Same with my SK sceario. If he could have bound himself by Kaesora it
would have been a no brainer, but he couldn't, and usually the players
in FoB couldn't either due to level. So I had to make the group wait
indefinately, or come out to me which they were often reluctant to do if
they had the ability to fight without me. And given the amount of
downtime in the game at that point I don't really blame them.

> Still, I think the game was better off with night-blindness than without
> even under those circumstances. If I *had* had that sort of trouble due
> to my graphics card, I would likely have just played a race that didn't
> suffer from it. /shrug

I think most of us had faith they would -fix- it. an LLS was easy to
come by, and a GLS only slightly harder. And even a firebeetle eye was
theoretically enough to light your way through dark tunnels.

Its just that they didn't actually work.
Rumbledor - 28 Jan 2005 21:22 GMT
>> Well, I found starting with one bag to be just enough of an
>> improvement to facilitate practical inventory management. When you
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> could have easily had a small box or two, and maybe a spit or backpack
> for larger items.

Sure, if that's all you needed to focus on purchasing. There was also
bandages (which weren't cheap at that level), sewing kit & patterns to
craft tattered armor, maybe a bow, fletching kit and components, next
level of spells, etc.

> I always just either focussed on one type of mob to maximize stacking,
> or grouped and had each person loot a differnt mob type. We'd easily
> get a few gold each between trips to town. Rusty weapons were a gold
> all by themselves... and if we managed a cracked staff... jackpot :D

Mmmm...cracked staves and plague rat tails. :)

>> >> > The
>> >> > long treks were for IMMERSION.
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> if they had the ability to fight without me. And given the amount of
> downtime in the game at that point I don't really blame them.

Well, I guess we can just agree to disagree here. I think it added to
the atmosphere of being far from home and certain dangers that go along
with that.

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42 - 29 Jan 2005 00:01 GMT
> >> Well, I found starting with one bag to be just enough of an
> >> improvement to facilitate practical inventory management. When you
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> craft tattered armor, maybe a bow, fletching kit and components, next
> level of spells, etc.

If you couldn't afford it you didn't buy it. A bow and arrows was a
luxury that you could live without for the first dozen levels. (and
never miss it either, although perhaps we didn't know that at the time.)
My first bows came from BB gnolls... I don't think i ever saw one I
could afford at the merchants. I rarely did more than 1 damage with
it... hardly with a silver per shot.

Bandages? Waste of money. 10 seconds... 1-4 hit points. Certainly not
worth a silver+ each on a newbie bankroll. You'd get hit points back
just as fast by sitting, and mana too.

Bandages became relevant later on, but were not an expense a level 1-10
should have indulged in if cash was tight.

But a sewing kit was a great investment... it doubled as a container,
and let you combine silks out in the field. When I found out you could
get large sewing kits in Halas that motivated me to make the trip.

The tattered armour was fun too, but that didn't happen for me until
after I had a few boxes.

> > I always just either focussed on one type of mob to maximize stacking,
> > or grouped and had each person loot a differnt mob type. We'd easily
> > get a few gold each between trips to town. Rusty weapons were a gold
> > all by themselves... and if we managed a cracked staff... jackpot :D
>
> Mmmm...cracked staves and plague rat tails. :)

I actually don't remember plague rat tails back in '99. I swear they
added them later. (either that or made them a lot more common)

> >> >> > The
> >> >> > long treks were for IMMERSION.

> Well, I guess we can just agree to disagree here. I think it added to
> the atmosphere of being far from home and certain dangers that go along
> with that.

I'm not even sure if we *really* disagree. I agree long trips did add to
immersion.

As I said... I liked making the trip. I liked the sense I had gone
*somewhere* and that I couldn't just pop back. I just didn't like not
being able to bind at the end of it. Making the same 40 minute trip 3
times in one day didn't add to anything. And I'd have welcomed trips
that were twice as long if there was a way of reliably binding at the
other end.

Quite frankly, it detracted from the immersion to have traveled that
long and that far to a distant land... where the trip back would be
another hour... only to trip over a cliff and find yourself home 2
continents away in the blink of an eye.

Trolls and Ogres in particular had a beast of time. There were
significant faction obstacles to many bind spots.

It was even hard getting a bind at home in Ogguk. One was actually
better off trying for a bind in freeport. (Ogguk like Erudin was always
a ghost town... erudin at least was home mostly to bind capable
casters... ogre shamens otoh were comparatively few and far between vs
erudite ... well...erudite anything almost.

When you consider that most players played humans and elves, races with
reduced faction issues, and 5 or even 6 bind capable classes, and most
lived in the great hubs (freeport & kelethin); its no wonder there is
such a large spread of perspective. Sure I could get into Freeport or
Kelethin to bind (well under kelethin anyway), but I couldn't bank, or
shop there. I regularly had to make a pilgramige back to Ogguk or Neriak
relied extensively on others to purchase food/water, change money for
me, and sell items. I carried gems around as lightweight liquid
currency.

I was friends with a rogue at the time and even his experience was quite
different. Home was Kelethin... he never had trouble finding a bind
there and he was welcome in places like halas, hhk, erudin, kaladim,
rivervale, etc and if a binder was available he could even get bound
safely in Ogguk or Grobb.
Rumbledor - 29 Jan 2005 13:36 GMT
>> >> Well, I found starting with one bag to be just enough of an
>> >> improvement to facilitate practical inventory management. When you
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> one I could afford at the merchants. I rarely did more than 1 damage
> with it... hardly with a silver per shot.

Pulling and maintaining your skill. 'Nuf said.

> Bandages? Waste of money. 10 seconds... 1-4 hit points. Certainly not
> worth a silver+ each on a newbie bankroll. You'd get hit points back
> just as fast by sitting, and mana too.

Waste the time now when 1-4 hp is at least something, or later when it
is just a time sink *and* robbing you of med time.

With the ability to bw while sitting now, it's not an issue, but back
then it was.

> But a sewing kit was a great investment... it doubled as a container,
> and let you combine silks out in the field. When I found out you could
> get large sewing kits in Halas that motivated me to make the trip.

Unless, being more expensive than a backpack, it was the only container
you could afford, in which case it was always full of stuff, preventing
you from crafting with it.

>> Mmmm...cracked staves and plague rat tails. :)
>
> I actually don't remember plague rat tails back in '99. I swear they
> added them later. (either that or made them a lot more common)

You may be right.
 
>> >> >> > The
>> >> >> > long treks were for IMMERSION.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> another hour... only to trip over a cliff and find yourself home 2
> continents away in the blink of an eye.

Simple solution -> be more careful. Nothing keeps you from accidentally
selling that uber breastplate to a vendor either. ;)

> Trolls and Ogres in particular had a beast of time. There were
> significant faction obstacles to many bind spots.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> casters... ogre shamens otoh were comparatively few and far between vs
> erudite ... well...erudite anything almost.

Granted, ogres had it tough, trolls not nearly so, sharing their home
city with dark elves. Still, that is something that needed attention at
the race/class level, not in game design philosophy.

Aside from that, playing one of the most hated races in all of Norrath
was *supposed* to offer challenges.

> When you consider that most players played humans and elves, races
> with reduced faction issues, and 5 or even 6 bind capable classes, and
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> kaladim, rivervale, etc and if a binder was available he could even
> get bound safely in Ogguk or Grobb.

Like I said, ogres obviously had issues. That doesn't begin to explain
or justify the complete removal of the travel aspect from the game.

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Paleghost - 29 Jan 2005 22:48 GMT
i enjoyed taking the boat and running through freeport as an iksar.. I
enjoyed having to sneak around in every city there was.

it all started with luclin.. and PoP topped it off.  Next thing you
know.. everyone will get gate. =(
Graeme Faelban - 31 Jan 2005 16:26 GMT
"Paleghost" <avicars@gmail.com> wrote in news:1107038896.062270.143220
@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:

> i enjoyed taking the boat and running through freeport as an iksar.. I
> enjoyed having to sneak around in every city there was.
>
> it all started with luclin.. and PoP topped it off.  Next thing you
> know.. everyone will get gate. =(

Oh, wait, they did...

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Don Woods - 01 Feb 2005 02:24 GMT
> > Next thing you know.. everyone will get gate. =(
>
> Oh, wait, they did...

Yeah?  Tell that to my level 51 monk.  (As I understand it, the
everyman gate ability is only available to high-level characters,
or costs a lot of AA points, or both.)

    -- Don.

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--
-- Sukrasisx, Monk 51 on E. Marr       Note: If you reply by mail,
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Graeme Faelban - 01 Feb 2005 15:17 GMT
>> > Next thing you know.. everyone will get gate. =(
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> everyman gate ability is only available to high-level characters,
> or costs a lot of AA points, or both.)

Level 70, not sure off hand about the cost.  Nobody specified level, aside
from which, everyone does have gate available to them if they really want
it.  I've sold quite a few gate potions.

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Davian - 02 Feb 2005 01:02 GMT
> >> > Next thing you know.. everyone will get gate. =(
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> from which, everyone does have gate available to them if they really want
> it.  I've sold quite a few gate potions.

67 and 8 AA's, I believe.

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Graeme Faelban - 02 Feb 2005 15:23 GMT
>> >> > Next thing you know.. everyone will get gate. =(
>> >>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> 67 and 8 AA's, I believe.

Oooh, better yet, 3 whole levels earlier...

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Meldur - 02 Feb 2005 03:02 GMT
>>> > Next thing you know.. everyone will get gate. =(
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>from which, everyone does have gate available to them if they really want
>it.  I've sold quite a few gate potions.

Level 67 and 7 AAs for  Rangers,transports you to your birthing
place,annoying if you were born in Surefall Glade.In this case I am
glad I have a Woodelf Ranger,"Origin" ports me to Kelethin Ranger
Guild.

Uland 67 Hunter
Moopy - 02 Feb 2005 10:59 GMT
> Level 67 and 7 AAs for  Rangers,transports you to your birthing
> place,annoying if you were born in Surefall Glade.In this case I am
> glad I have a Woodelf Ranger,"Origin" ports me to Kelethin Ranger
> Guild.

Annoying? Why?

Surefall glade with AA. Lesser Faydark with Tolans BP. Best of both
worlds ;)

Once-Was-Suiddaru ;)

Matt
42 - 02 Feb 2005 12:57 GMT
> > Level 67 and 7 AAs for  Rangers,transports you to your birthing
> > place,annoying if you were born in Surefall Glade.In this case I am
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Surefall glade with AA. Lesser Faydark with Tolans BP. Best of both
> worlds ;)

Not really. :)

There is never a reason to return to SFG. Its 3 zones from PoK, the
closest bank, or anywhere worth going.

Tolans BP gets you to LF, which makes a Kelethin bound Ranger again, 1
zone closer to everything relevant.

PrePoK books it would have been pretty awesome... now its virtually
irrelevant to be able to land in sfg.
Moopy - 02 Feb 2005 13:47 GMT
> Not really. :)
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> PrePoK books it would have been pretty awesome... now its virtually
> irrelevant to be able to land in sfg.

I *liked* surefall ;) And anyway, you might be a zone further
away in LFay ,but you're about 200 meters closer to the book ;) depends
how fast you zone which you prefer, I guess ;)

I suppose you might have a point that its, uh, a bit of a backwater now,
though ;)

M
42 - 02 Feb 2005 19:22 GMT
> > Not really. :)
> >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> away in LFay ,but you're about 200 meters closer to the book ;) depends
> how fast you zone which you prefer, I guess ;)

Fair enough. But the kelethin ranger could get a BP too :)

> I suppose you might have a point that its, uh, a bit of a backwater now,
> though ;)

I liked SFG too... but sans bank, and on the way to nowhere...qeynos is
a backwater... SFG is a backwater to the backwater. :p
Hagen Sienhold - 03 Feb 2005 08:56 GMT
> I liked SFG too... but sans bank, and on the way to nowhere...qeynos is
> a backwater... SFG is a backwater to the backwater. :p
The no bank remark puzzles me. Jagged pine forest does have a bank. And
unless you're KoS to them it is very easy to reach.

Hagen
Celaeno - 03 Feb 2005 15:13 GMT
Did you say something, Hagen Sienhold <durragon@web.de>?

>> I liked SFG too... but sans bank, and on the way to nowhere...qeynos is
>> a backwater... SFG is a backwater to the backwater. :p
>The no bank remark puzzles me. Jagged pine forest does have a bank. And
>unless you're KoS to them it is very easy to reach.

I  used the Surefall Gate a *lot* for selling/banking purposes. Less
lag than in zoning in to PoK was the main reason, foraging the
occasional plant shoot was the other.

Cel
Retired druids & sundry
Jennaii - 04 Feb 2005 12:33 GMT
>I liked SFG too... but sans bank, and on the way to nowhere...qeynos is
>a backwater... SFG is a backwater to the backwater. :p

I have always thought SFG should have a bank.  Back in the olden days - BEFORE
Jaggedpine -  it sure would have come in handy....

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Rumbledor - 04 Feb 2005 18:25 GMT
>>I liked SFG too... but sans bank, and on the way to nowhere...qeynos
>>is a backwater... SFG is a backwater to the backwater. :p
>
> I have always thought SFG should have a bank.  Back in the olden days
> - BEFORE Jaggedpine -  it sure would have come in handy....

It never made sense to me for a starting city not to have a bank.

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42 - 04 Feb 2005 19:14 GMT
> >I liked SFG too... but sans bank, and on the way to nowhere...qeynos is
> >a backwater... SFG is a backwater to the backwater. :p
>
> I have always thought SFG should have a bank.  Back in the olden days - BEFORE
> Jaggedpine -  it sure would have come in handy....

Yeah, when I'd commented I'd forgotten about the bank in JF... shows how
much I've been to JF :/
Meldur - 02 Feb 2005 02:59 GMT
>> > Next thing you know.. everyone will get gate. =(
>>
>> Oh, wait, they did...
>
>Yeah?  Tell that to my level 51 monk.

Gating potions ?
Going price is 2800 to 3000p for a 10 charge gate potion,NPC Vendors
buy it back for 1900p independtly of how many charges are left.
So the average price is 120p to gate,affordable in a game where mobs
with 16 hitpoints drop bazaar sellable loot up to 30p.  :)

Uland 67 Hunter
Ken Andrews - 07 Feb 2005 16:19 GMT
> i enjoyed taking the boat and running through freeport as an iksar.. I
> enjoyed having to sneak around in every city there was.
>
> it all started with luclin.. and PoP topped it off.  Next thing you
> know.. everyone will get gate. =(

EQ2, everyone did.  Useable once an hour.
42 - 29 Jan 2005 22:56 GMT
> >> >> Well, I found starting with one bag to be just enough of an
> >> >> improvement to facilitate practical inventory management. When you
[quoted text clipped - 72 lines]
> Simple solution -> be more careful. Nothing keeps you from accidentally
> selling that uber breastplate to a vendor either. ;)

Actually I aug things I don't want to accidently sell. ;)
"Be more careful" is all well and fine, but accidents do happen...
whether it was hitting combine on your sewing kit-cum-backpack and
*destroying* everything in it, tripping off a cliff, standing where a
hillgiant is about to spawn. The punishment for an accident should be
commesurate with the avoidability and severity of misjudgement.

Getting sent 10 zones backwards, 45 minutes of travel, without your
stuff and docked the better part of a yellow of xp for getting too close
to a hill giants spawn point is too high a penalty.

Raiders fighting gods suffer less when they die. (96% xp rezzes, 0
return travel time,... worst case they fail to take the god out...)

 
> > Trolls and Ogres in particular had a beast of time. There were
> > significant faction obstacles to many bind spots.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> city with dark elves. Still, that is something that needed attention at
> the race/class level, not in game design philosophy.

Uh... trolls home city used to be Grobb (now Gukta) in Innothule Swamp.
But both trolls and ogres have always been reasonably welcome in Neriak.

> Aside from that, playing one of the most hated races in all of Norrath
> was *supposed* to offer challenges.

Extra downtime isn't a challenge. If you upped the difficulty level in
Doom III and the only difference was that load times were tripled...
well feeling a little ripped off would be an understatement :)

> Like I said, ogres obviously had issues. That doesn't begin to explain
> or justify the complete removal of the travel aspect from the game.

Sometimes I wonder if you are even reading what I'm writing. I like
travel. I am not arguing to remove it from the game.

For me, the biggest flaw with slow travel is the deathport. If I die I
should respawn in a safe spot not more than a zone away, not halfway
around the world.

If they did that I'd be happy to remove *all* fast travel from the game.

(Of course, if that were to happen, other things would have to change
too... like more places to sell/bank, some way of gathering for raids,
etc...)
Rumbledor - 31 Jan 2005 05:48 GMT
>> >> >> Well, I found starting with one bag to be just enough of an
>> >> >> improvement to facilitate practical inventory management. When
[quoted text clipped - 80 lines]
> hillgiant is about to spawn. The punishment for an accident should be
> commesurate with the avoidability and severity of misjudgement.

Pfft. I could cross the center line on a highway by merely not paying
enough attention, and the punishment for that is quite severe. I don't
think your philosophy in this regard is grounded.

> Getting sent 10 zones backwards, 45 minutes of travel, without your
> stuff and docked the better part of a yellow of xp for getting too
> close to a hill giants spawn point is too high a penalty.

Except for the fact that when the punishment is more severe, you'll tend
to take more steps to avoid the mishap. You have control.

> Raiders fighting gods suffer less when they die. (96% xp rezzes, 0
> return travel time,... worst case they fail to take the god out...)

Yeah, I've never quite figured that one out. I do believe the higher the
reward the higher the risk.

>> > Trolls and Ogres in particular had a beast of time. There were
>> > significant faction obstacles to many bind spots.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Swamp. But both trolls and ogres have always been reasonably welcome
> in Neriak.

Doh. You're right. I wasn't thinking. Darned game changes have gone to
my brain.

>> Aside from that, playing one of the most hated races in all of
>> Norrath was *supposed* to offer challenges.
>
> Extra downtime isn't a challenge.

No, but avoiding it *is*.

> If you upped the difficulty level in
> Doom III and the only difference was that load times were tripled...
> well feeling a little ripped off would be an understatement :)

Not a fair comparison.

>> Like I said, ogres obviously had issues. That doesn't begin to
>> explain or justify the complete removal of the travel aspect from the
>> game.
>
> Sometimes I wonder if you are even reading what I'm writing. I like
> travel. I am not arguing to remove it from the game.

I've not seen any alternative to the PoK books come from you, so it was
a safe enough assumption. Perhaps I'm not hearing your point in full.

> For me, the biggest flaw with slow travel is the deathport. If I die I
> should respawn in a safe spot not more than a zone away, not halfway
> around the world.
>
> If they did that I'd be happy to remove *all* fast travel from the
> game.

That makes some sense.

> (Of course, if that were to happen, other things would have to change
> too... like more places to sell/bank, some way of gathering for raids,
> etc...)

Perhaps scattered outposts where prices aren't nearly as good as a more
familiar locale.

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Tim Smith - 31 Jan 2005 18:52 GMT
>> Getting sent 10 zones backwards, 45 minutes of travel, without your stuff
>> and docked the better part of a yellow of xp for getting too close to a
>> hill giants spawn point is too high a penalty.
>
> Except for the fact that when the punishment is more severe, you'll tend
> to take more steps to avoid the mishap. You have control.

That specific case is just annoying--at least on the corpse recovery you now
know where  Hill Giant spawn point is so you can maybe avoid it.  Where the
EQ1 death penalty really sucked was when you died because something you were
trying to do turned out to be too hard.  Let's see...doing X was too hard,
so you punishment for failure is to get to try X again but this time without
your best equipment?

In a game where so much of one's power comes from equipment, the EQ1 death
penalty was somewhere between cruel and stupid.

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Graeme Faelban - 31 Jan 2005 20:13 GMT
>>> Getting sent 10 zones backwards, 45 minutes of travel, without your
>>> stuff and docked the better part of a yellow of xp for getting too
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> In a game where so much of one's power comes from equipment, the EQ1
> death penalty was somewhere between cruel and stupid.

You see, now, I found it frustrating but fun.  One of my favorite
memories was a guild raid gone bad, where we had to fight our way back in
all decked out in mage summoned gear.  We had a blast, despite the
original wipe.

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Rumbledor - 01 Feb 2005 00:48 GMT
>>>> Getting sent 10 zones backwards, 45 minutes of travel, without your
>>>> stuff and docked the better part of a yellow of xp for getting too
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> in all decked out in mage summoned gear.  We had a blast, despite the
> original wipe.

It's interesting that those who find such fault with things like this are
all but unable to enjoy anything that doesn't move them farther down the xp
track.

There really is more to EQ than merely levelling. Criminy, in a fantasy
adventure, do you think the characters would just run in willy nilly and
take a stab at a dragon just to see if they could kill it? Heck no, they
formed battle plans and contingency plans. When you go in with no plan for
getting out, sometimes you won't get out.

There's more to the experience that running in, smacking the attack key and
waiting for phat lewtz to drop.

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Davian - 01 Feb 2005 00:57 GMT
> It's interesting that those who find such fault with things like this are
> all but unable to enjoy anything that doesn't move them farther down the xp
> track.

Generalize much?

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Rumbledor - 01 Feb 2005 04:17 GMT
>> It's interesting that those who find such fault with things like this
>> are all but unable to enjoy anything that doesn't move them farther
>> down the xp track.
>
> Generalize much?

Excuse me. *Many* of those. Feel better?

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Davian - 01 Feb 2005 23:38 GMT
> >> It's interesting that those who find such fault with things like this
> >> are all but unable to enjoy anything that doesn't move them farther
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Excuse me. *Many* of those. Feel better?

Not particularly.  Whether its everyone or almost everyone, declaring
unilaterally that those who disagree with you on this are exp obsessed, non rp
powergamers (or whatever you're calling them this week) may be a nice way to
declare victory in your argument, but it doesn't really bolster your point.

In other words, unless you have some way to back up what you're saying, I
officially declare you to be talking out of your a.s.

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Rumbledor - 02 Feb 2005 17:25 GMT
>> >> It's interesting that those who find such fault with things like
>> >> this are all but unable to enjoy anything that doesn't move them
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> In other words, unless you have some way to back up what you're
> saying, I officially declare you to be talking out of your a.s.

Please. You're putting enough words into my mouth as to have your own two-
way argument.

It was a fair observation. Of course it does not apply to everyone of that
opinion, but quite often enough to be used in discussion.

Pick a fight someplace else. I'm really not in the mood.

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Davian - 02 Feb 2005 23:17 GMT
> > In other words, unless you have some way to back up what you're
> > saying, I officially declare you to be talking out of your a.s.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> It was a fair observation. Of course it does not apply to everyone of that
> opinion, but quite often enough to be used in discussion.

Sure, if you don't mind using blatant generalizations that have little backing
in reality.

> Pick a fight someplace else. I'm really not in the mood.

Then leave.

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Rumbledor - 04 Feb 2005 01:51 GMT
>> Pick a fight someplace else. I'm really not in the mood.
>
> Then leave.

Oh, grow up.

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Davian - 04 Feb 2005 04:06 GMT
> >> Pick a fight someplace else. I'm really not in the mood.
> >
> > Then leave.
>
> Oh, grow up.

Just can't live without the last word, eh?

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Rumbledor - 04 Feb 2005 06:26 GMT
"Davian" <davian@nospammindspring.com> wrote in news:182dnaWfK-QyaZ_fRVn-
3Q@adelphia.com:

>> >> Pick a fight someplace else. I'm really not in the mood.
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Just can't live without the last word, eh?

Here's a last word for you. *plonk*

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Davian - 04 Feb 2005 12:21 GMT
> "Davian" <davian@nospammindspring.com> wrote in news:182dnaWfK-QyaZ_fRVn-
> 3Q@adelphia.com:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Here's a last word for you. *plonk*

You will of course forgive me if I don't break down crying because a grade A
jackass such as yourself doesn't want to talk to me.

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Moopy - 04 Feb 2005 13:05 GMT
>> "Davian" <davian@nospammindspring.com> wrote in news:182dnaWfK-QyaZ_fRVn-
>> 3Q@adelphia.com:
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> You will of course forgive me if I don't break down crying because a grade A
> jackass such as yourself doesn't want to talk to me.

Oh, grow up.
Davian - 04 Feb 2005 20:03 GMT
> >> "Davian" <davian@nospammindspring.com> wrote in news:182dnaWfK-QyaZ_fRVn-
> >> 3Q@adelphia.com:

> >> >> Oh, grow up.
> >> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Oh, grow up.

Sorry Matt, I'm not quite sure what reaction you were hoping for, but that one
doesn't really work on me without the long history.

If it's really that important to you though, you could always act like a jerk
for a couple weeks then come back and try again? :)

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Moopy - 31 Jan 2005 10:48 GMT
> Actually I aug things I don't want to accidently sell. ;)
> "Be more careful" is all well and fine, but accidents do happen...
> whether it was hitting combine on your sewing kit-cum-backpack and
> *destroying* everything in it, tripping off a cliff, standing where a
> hillgiant is about to spawn. The punishment for an accident should be
> commesurate with the avoidability and severity of misjudgement.

Shrug. One of my favourite memories of EQ was accidentally selling
my ebony bladed longswords in Oggok after a very long day in Cazic
Thule with my bags full of the identical graphic fine steel longswords
(4pp each or so, that was *money*). After mournfully trying to buy
back every single item on the vendor to pop the swords back into
view, I despondantly told my group what I'd done. Oh Crapsticks.

5 minutes later one of them turned up minus his efreeti boots and
with a pair of ykesha shortswords and a big smile. The consequence
of the game, the difficulty, the long downtimes lead, for me at
any rate, to lots of time making friends, building genuine
camaraderie, and a genuine empathy when things like that happened.

It wasn't 'FFS stop whining and come to outer caves to grind it out',
it was 'Oh, OUCH, what can we do to help?'. I remember generous druids
porting me to corpses half way across the world and making my friends
list forever after. I remember guarding a naked caster across velious
with SOW and invis for much the same reasons and being offered groups
by them for a fortnight after. I remember the difficulty lending the
game depth, and meaning, and requiring players to help and support
one another in a way that lead to real friendships.

But thats what *I* remember ;) I can see others might remember having
to walk 45 minutes without a peep from anyone ;) I certainly remember
shouting obscenities at my monitor after dying for the third time in
Guk bound in freeport in a night ;)

> Getting sent 10 zones backwards, 45 minutes of travel, without your
> stuff and docked the better part of a yellow of xp for getting too close
> to a hill giants spawn point is too high a penalty.

But it was exactly that threat that made the successful completion of
traveling from Qeynos to Freeport at level 8 such a thrill. Of creeping
through Oggok with invis and sneak to explore. Of all the other stupid
crazy fun things we did. Really, who gives a crap if you die with
instant 96% rez? its not like thats raider only.

> Raiders fighting gods suffer less when they die. (96% xp rezzes, 0
> return travel time,... worst case they fail to take the god out...)

Well, competent raiders, maybe, in todays game. It wasnt as simple
as you imply if you wiped deep in TOV or Fear. No Graveyards. Long
travel time to the zone. KOS creatures everywhere. No SOS. Watch
monks try and FD drag your entire guilds bodies to a safe spot while
the druids ferry everyone to cobalt scar then watch them try to run
naked through sirens grotto and the western wastes and tell me
theres no penalty.

> Extra downtime isn't a challenge. If you upped the difficulty level in
> Doom III and the only difference was that load times were tripled...
> well feeling a little ripped off would be an understatement :)

But EQ isnt doom. The core difference in philosophy, and the one that
seems to have won out in EQ design ethos, is that it *is* doom. That
unless you're fighting and pushing the xp meter up you're not *playing*.

I always used to think Sonys greatest scam was successfully making us
pay to provide one another with content while they sat back and raked
in the cash for providing a few props and theatre backdrops. They
seem to have lost sight of that approach and imagined we (I ;) )
play to play the *game*. The game of EQ is *boring*. Its turning on
autoattack and watching two red bars decrease. Its easy, and it
doesnt change from 1-70, raiding or casual, substantively. A few
interesting pulls + crowd control, a few close heals, thats it.

Ok, so thats an exageration, but my point is - the interesting bit
is the other people, and the obstacles you overcome together. If you
remove all requirements to work together with people, smooth the
obstacles out entirely for the worst and most antisocial players,
reduce the game solely to a constant stream of click-killing, then...

you've removed what made everquest an interesting game, and turned it
into a crappy Doom. People say EQ doesnt start till 65 nowadays. Or
70 now, I suppose. Thats because raiding is the one activity left
that requires group cooperation, has a difficulty level, and ironic
as it is given your post above, incurs significant downtime in terms
of prep, travel and wipe recovery , that leads to people actually
getting to know one another and build shared experiences.

By removing those things that make raiding attractive from the 1-70
game, by turning it into just a constant 'grind' they have removed
the *game*.

In my opinion ;)

Matt

>> Like I said, ogres obviously had issues. That doesn't begin to explain
>> or justify the complete removal of the travel aspect from the game.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> too... like more places to sell/bank, some way of gathering for raids,
> etc...)
Rumbledor - 31 Jan 2005 12:53 GMT
>> Actually I aug things I don't want to accidently sell. ;)
>> "Be more careful" is all well and fine, but accidents do happen...
[quoted text clipped - 89 lines]
>
> In my opinion ;)

Great post.

(apologies to the snip nazi's)

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murdocj - 31 Jan 2005 13:39 GMT
>Shrug. One of my favourite memories of EQ was accidentally selling
>my ebony bladed longswords in Oggok after a very long day in Cazic
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>any rate, to lots of time making friends, building genuine
>camaraderie, and a genuine empathy when things like that happened.

It's true that it's the social interaction that makes EQ.  I have a
couple of fond memories of Velious, all centered around a mob that
dropped an "etched stone mace" (I think).  I dropped that guy a couple
of times, very much spur of the moment (we were just fighting there
off and on) and one player was so grateful she gave a very nice
necklace after a touch and go fight.  Another time some player came up
to me and asked me about the mace and then said "I'll buy that off
you" and I had the pleasure of for once having "cool gear" (of course,
I didn't sell, I still have that mace in the bank, although it's been
years since I used it).

>Well, competent raiders, maybe, in todays game. It wasnt as simple
>as you imply if you wiped deep in TOV or Fear. No Graveyards. Long
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>naked through sirens grotto and the western wastes and tell me
>theres no penalty.

This was pretty much why I didn't raid.  The last time I went on a
raid, the server died right a few minutes before I was getting ready
to head out... meaning the next time I logged in I was going to
appear, alone, deep in a dungeon, surrounded by mobs.  We had no idea
when the server would come back up, I had work the next day, and I was
not staying up all night because of what's supposed to be a fun game.

The happy ending was that my wife did stay up, she logged into my char
and got me out, so the next more all was cool and I was in a happier
mood.  But getting into situations where you either MUST stay online
or suffer the loss of all the gear you've spent 5 years accumulating
is NOT fun, unless you are an extreme masochist.

>Ok, so thats an exageration, but my point is - the interesting bit
>is the other people, and the obstacles you overcome together. If you
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>game, by turning it into just a constant 'grind' they have removed
>the *game*.

But there IS an alternative to raiding. At  least up to level 19 in
WoW, there is a quest driven plotline.  Essentially WoW has melded
being in a "real world" with other players, and the plotline of a solo
game.  What typically has happened so far is that as you do quests,
you meet up with a few other people doing the same quest, join forces,
complete the quest and move on.  

The game is more social because there are not huge penalties for
failure.  There are still people that you don't want to play with
because of their antics, but there isn't a huge penalty for making the
wrong choice.  I can sign on quickly, play for an hour, have some fun,
and sign off again.  In EQ, it might take me an hour just to get set
up with a group and start playing.  It had gotten to the point in EQ
where I really felt like I had to have a block of 3 hours to "play" in
order to sign on...  
Graeme Faelban - 31 Jan 2005 16:40 GMT
<snip>
> The game is more social because there are not huge penalties for
> failure.  There are still people that you don't want to play with
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> where I really felt like I had to have a block of 3 hours to "play" in
> order to sign on...  

Fortunately, playing a shaman, I always had, and still have, the
alternative of just soloing when I know I don't have enough time to group.  
Admittedly, now, when I have just an hour or so to play, I choose EQ2
instead of EQ, as it is much friendlier to a casual player than EQ is.

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Graeme Faelban - 31 Jan 2005 16:37 GMT
>> Actually I aug things I don't want to accidently sell. ;)
>> "Be more careful" is all well and fine, but accidents do happen...
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> shouting obscenities at my monitor after dying for the third time in
> Guk bound in freeport in a night ;)

Excellent summary of what it was that I loved about EQ prior to all the
changes to make things easy for everyone.  I built up many great
friendships in game due to the fact that you had to cooperate and help
each other.

>> Getting sent 10 zones backwards, 45 minutes of travel, without your
>> stuff and docked the better part of a yellow of xp for getting too
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> other stupid crazy fun things we did. Really, who gives a crap if you
> die with instant 96% rez? its not like thats raider only.

And if you couldn't get a rez, well, you ate the loss and moved on, I've
done that many times.

<snip>
>> Extra downtime isn't a challenge. If you upped the difficulty level
>> in Doom III and the only difference was that load times were
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> In my opinion ;)

One, which to a large degree, I share.

I still play EQ, but largely only for the raiding experience.

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Graeme Faelban - 31 Jan 2005 16:29 GMT
>> Like I said, ogres obviously had issues. That doesn't begin to explain
>> or justify the complete removal of the travel aspect from the game.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> too... like more places to sell/bank, some way of gathering for raids,
> etc...)

Heh, EQ2.  That is exactly what they did for deaths (you get to pick a
spot to pop in at when you die, unless you are getting a rez).  They do
however have some of the fast travel options in game, and no boats, in
general, for transport.

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Graeme Faelban - 31 Jan 2005 16:26 GMT
>>> Sure, if that's all you needed to focus on purchasing. There was also
>>> bandages (which weren't cheap at that level), sewing kit & patterns
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Pulling and maintaining your skill. 'Nuf said.

My warrior got his first bow and a supply of arrows off goblins he was
killing.

>  
>> Bandages? Waste of money. 10 seconds... 1-4 hit points. Certainly not
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> With the ability to bw while sitting now, it's not an issue, but back
> then it was.

I let BW languish at early levels due to the cost of the bandages I have
to admit.  It was a pain later on, but I did raise it. (Not on my shaman,
that was a total waste).

<snip>
> Granted, ogres had it tough, trolls not nearly so, sharing their home
> city with dark elves. Still, that is something that needed attention at
> the race/class level, not in game design philosophy.

Trolls had their own city once...

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Rumbledor - 31 Jan 2005 18:28 GMT</