Game Forum / Role Playing Games / EverQuest / August 2004
Which Table are you on?
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Lance Berg - 29 Aug 2004 20:12 GMT Sounds, I know, like some annoying learn spanish at home in your spare time phrase.
But.
I was browsing thru one of the web forums, where I saw someone mention that Berserkers are on the Plate Tank table.
I've heard before that there are several different defensive tables, and that which one you are on matters a great deal.
For example, I've heard (and even repeated) that Clerics and perhaps bards, despite wearing in some cases the very same pieces of plate armor as "real" tanks, despite having the same AC figure, seem to take hits a lot more like a post nerf monk, supposedly because they are on a different table.
This is, I think, supposed to be in addition to avoidance, (which is to say the various dodge, parry, riposte, block skills,) and all the AA out there to affect sponging.
Now A) I don't know what the tables even -are-. Are they
I) Warrior/Knight II) Ranger/Rogue/Beastlord III) Monk/Bard/Cleric IV) Int Caster
and B) How do they relate?
and C) Is this the same as soft cap, or is that yet another factor?
and D) Does this have anything to do with offense, or is it merely about defense?
and E) Is this about avoidance, mitigation, both, niether, or... what?
and F) Where do Berserkers land on that list above; I assumed given that they are wearing chain they'd be on table II), but from the one post I saw mentioning them it seems like they may be on table I), just as clerics and bards, who wear plate, should be on table I) but are on table II) instead (unless I'm wrong about that)
Grage, 55 Berzerk, Luclin
Sean Kennedy - 29 Aug 2004 20:46 GMT Lance Berg <emporer@dejazzd.com> wrote in news:MbCdnX6fvZAvt6_cRVn- iA@dejazzd.com:
> Sounds, I know, like some annoying learn spanish at home in your spare > time phrase. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > III) Monk/Bard/Cleric > IV) Int Caster This might help a little (or just raise more quesitons :) )
http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5868
 Signature Arch Convoker Mairelon Snapbang Feral Lord Bosra Snowclaw Vacationing in the south of Faydwer for the forseeable future.
an Laoch, 8th Level Tanker
Lance Berg - 29 Aug 2004 21:30 GMT > Lance Berg <emporer@dejazzd.com> wrote in news:MbCdnX6fvZAvt6_cRVn- > iA@dejazzd.com: [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5868 Doesn't help me out much, because A) I don't really understand much of it, and B) it is discussing classes which have time+ gear and full defensive AAs and worse C) it doesn't include Berserkers anyway, not to mention D) it doesn't include bards either, so I can test the rumor that bards and clerics are on a different table than warriors and knights.
Further, the classes weren't at even close to the same AC, I'd think it would have been a simple enough matter to control AC by stripping off some gear and by using Faith instead of Virtue so you could add or not add Ward of Gallantry.
Then some classes had defensive augments and some didn't.
Ideally, this should be done at 100 AC intervals from 1K to 2K AC for each class, in each case using characters as close in gear/aa as feasible.
Then, taking a character without a given AA, getting him that AA, and trying it again at the same AC, deliberately changing nothing about the situation but that one AA.
The way this test was done is a lot like taking all the people in an elementary school, sorting them by race and height, and then making conclusions about the connection between race and height while ignoring age and diet.
Still, I'll give this a shot:
Progression warrior monk Paladin shadow knight ranger rogue beast cleric shaman druid
Plate melee plus monk, chain melee, beastlord, then priests again in order plate, chain, leather.
Odd man out is the monk, who is in the middle of the plate classes for some reason, despite a nerf that I'm told put him deep in the priest regions.
Of course the problem is that he takes damage like a warrior but has HP like a druid
Still, back to berserker. I'm looking over the chart trying to see -why- the order is the way it is. It looks to me as though it isn't about any one thing, its about all of them added together; or rather its about mitigation and avoidance multiplied together.
I don't know what the mitigation of a berserker is, but the avoidance should be relatively easy to find; looking at the chart this seems to be the result of block dodge parry riposte... and some other factor I don't get, which shows in the miss% column (which apparantly factors out the above).
Various classes seem to score in those areas just as you might expect by their skill caps in them, with NA where they don't have a skill.
OK, Berserkers have dodge, parry, and riposte, with caps of 175, 175, and 225; they lack block entirely.
Is the Miss thing based on Defense? Berserker defense cap is 240
And from there I'm really lost.
Grage, 55 Berserk, Luclin Warrior Monk
Sean Kennedy - 29 Aug 2004 23:27 GMT
>> http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5868 > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > that bards and clerics are on a different table than warriors and > knights. The second table is the interesting one - note that the following had no avoidance, no shielding and had AC within 70 points of one another.
(shld/avd removed as they are zero here) (DB was 102 for each, so removed it to fit) (also note, best in fixed width)
CLS - Class AC - AC with virtue SHLD - Amount of shielding on items AVD - Amount of avoidance on items DB - Damage Bonus of the mob. This is modified by shielding. DI - Damage interval of the mob. This is modified by warrior innate 5% reduction of the DI. MIT% - 0% mitigation would be max hits every single time. 100% mitigation would be min hits every single time. ATKS - Total number of punch attacks HIT% - Hits that landed divided by total punch attacks MISS% - Misses divided by hits that landed plus misses not including blocks, parries, dodges, or ripostes BLK% - Blocks divided by total punch attacks DDG% - Dodges divided by total punch attacks PRY% - Parries divided by total punch attacks RIP% - Ripostes divided by total punch attacks DMG - Avg damage taken per punch attack, basically AVG * HIT%.
CLS AC DI AVG MIT% ATKS HIT% MISS% BLK% DDG% PRY% RIP% DMG WAR 1380 21 273 64.5 1854 48.1 43.1 NA 4.9 5.9 5.5 131.4 MNK 1331 22.1 317 54.0 2550 46.8 42.1 10.4 4.5 NA 4.4 148.4 RNG 1308 22.1 316 54.2 2026 51.6 40.6 NA 3.6 5.6 4.0 163.3
Note that the Average hit on the monk was nearly the same as that on the ranger, with only a 22 point difference in AC.
Also note that miss% + blk% + ddg% + pry% + rip% + hit% is greater than 100. 2 guesses: 1) more than one can happen on a swing or 2) Since percentages are found with parrys/punches, if a bash/kick got parried/blocked etc then that would skew the numbers.
> Progression > warrior [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > some reason, despite a nerf that I'm told put him deep in the priest > regions. Look at the monks hit% vs. the other classes. He took the same average hit as the ranger, he just got hit less. Based on this (truly insufficient data) I'd hypothesize (as in just a guess) that mitigation goes in tiers:
Tier 1: Warriors (with their inherent bonus) Tier 2: SK, PAL Tier 3: Monk, Ranger, Rogue, Berserker, Cleric, Bard, Shaman Tier 4: BL, Druid Tier 5: Robes
Those are very loose - note that the cleric got hit a bit harder than an SK with 97 less ac and a bit of avd as opposed to the 2% shld the cleric had. But he may actually belong in Tier 2.
> Of course the problem is that he takes damage like a warrior but has > HP like a druid [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > about any one thing, its about all of them added together; or rather > its about mitigation and avoidance multiplied together. That's why average hit is in there, as is hit percentage. You can clearly see why the monk took less DPS than the ranger.
> I don't know what the mitigation of a berserker is, but the avoidance > should be relatively easy to find; looking at the chart this seems to [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > And from there I'm really lost. What are the caps on ranger Defense/Parry/Riposte/Block?
(quick look up)
Here's why I don't like Caster's realm, they still list Ranger Defense capped at 200. I know it got upped, I seem to recall to 240. I know my BL caps at 240. If the rest of the caps are right (no guarantee) then it's 220 parry, 170 dodge, 150 riposte.
At a guess, berserkers should get hit a little less often.
 Signature Arch Convoker Mairelon Snapbang Feral Lord Bosra Snowclaw Vacationing in the south of Faydwer for the forseeable future.
@ndrew - 30 Aug 2004 00:06 GMT > At a guess, berserkers should get hit a little less often. Not bad .. except the Berserker is on the knight table.
regards
@ndrew
Lief - 30 Aug 2004 03:22 GMT > Here's why I don't like Caster's realm, they still list Ranger Defense > capped at 200. I know it got upped, I seem to recall to 240. I know > my BL caps at 240. If the rest of the caps are right (no guarantee) > then it's 220 parry, 170 dodge, 150 riposte. Close :P Too lazy to type, check magelo for caps.
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=632063
Sean Kennedy - 30 Aug 2004 04:10 GMT "Lief" <ask.me.for@it.com> wrote in news:4cwYc.240$I_6.221@newsfe4- gui.ntli.net:
> http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=632063 220 parry, 170 dodge, 185 riposte and 240 defense.
Thanks Lief.
 Signature Arch Convoker Mairelon Snapbang Feral Lord Bosra Snowclaw Vacationing in the south of Faydwer for the forseeable future.
an Laoch, 8th Level Tanker
Jeff Lindholm - 30 Aug 2004 16:03 GMT >> I) Warrior/Knight >> II) Ranger/Rogue/Beastlord [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5868 Well I would like to see a little more info with people using at least similar AC values. Though from personal experience the BST at 1400 AC seems pretty low, since mine at level 51 is at 1100 AC with self bufs. (A little twinked but nothing like I would assume time gear should do) I am assuming the tests where the same guard, so there was no level changes etc. Maybe do this a little more controlled vs. a caster's pet in a duel or just a duel vs. a level 65.
Course I am not volunteering to take the time to do this, and I applaud the person who did the test, just suggesting alternatives :)
Faned - 30 Aug 2004 04:24 GMT <emporer@dejazzd.com> wrote:
> I was browsing thru one of the web forums, where I saw someone mention > that Berserkers are on the Plate Tank table. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > III) Monk/Bard/Cleric > IV) Int Caster I) Warrior II) Knight/Bard/Cleric III) Ranger/Rogue/Shaman/Berserker IV) Beastlord/Druid V) Monk VI) Int Caster
> and B) How do they relate? I put warriors on a different "table" even though it's probably the same table as the other plate classes, because they have a bonus that affects the entire range of hits. Same reasoning for monks being on their own table, except it's a penalty.
And clerics are definitely on the same table as the other plate classes. The difference is they don't have (or don't have the same skill caps on) dodge/parry/riposte/block, plus they tend to not have the same support AAs, though most of those AAs are available to them. On top of that, even though they wear plate they usually have considerably lower AC (and hp) than the warriors/knights (same applies to bards).
> and C) Is this the same as soft cap, or is that yet another factor? Yet another factor.
> and D) Does this have anything to do with offense, or is it merely about > defense? There are tables for offense as well. There are fewer, with the bulk of the classes grouped into one table and skill caps making the difference in offense capability.
> and E) Is this about avoidance, mitigation, both, niether, or... what? Mitigation. Avoidance seems to be a single table for all classes.
> and F) Where do Berserkers land on that list above; I assumed given that > they are wearing chain they'd be on table II), but from the one post I > saw mentioning them it seems like they may be on table I), just as > clerics and bards, who wear plate, should be on table I) but are on > table II) instead (unless I'm wrong about that) Anecdotal evidence, but from watching the beatdown berserkers get when they steal aggro from a plate tank, they're definitely not on the plate table.
Sean Kennedy - 30 Aug 2004 13:23 GMT > I) Warrior > II) Knight/Bard/Cleric > III) Ranger/Rogue/Shaman/Berserker > IV) Beastlord/Druid > V) Monk > VI) Int Caster Ok - everything except the monk one makes sense from the steel warrior parses. In those they had a 1300 AC monk (no shld/avd) and 1300 ac ranger (no shld/avd) take approximately the same average hit (although the monk avoided far more). Is there more than a subjective feeling that supports that?
 Signature Arch Convoker Mairelon Snapbang Feral Lord Bosra Snowclaw Vacationing in the south of Faydwer for the forseeable future.
an Laoch, 8th Level Tanker
Faned - 30 Aug 2004 16:17 GMT <x@y.z> wrote:
> > I) Warrior > > II) Knight/Bard/Cleric [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > (although the monk avoided far more). Is there > more than a subjective feeling that supports that? Yes, look at more than a single column of those results. Take a look at the percentage of hits for maximum, which will give you a (limited) glimpse at the monk nerf's impact.
Better, draw the curves for the entire distribution of hits for all the classes and notice that monks and warriors have distinctly different curves from everybody else due to the way the bonus/penalty affects that distribution of hits.
Graeme Faelban - 30 Aug 2004 16:26 GMT > <x@y.z> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > different curves from everybody else due to the way the bonus/penalty > affects that distribution of hits. As I recall, from seeing data in the past, monks have good avoidance, but, a few lucky hits will drop a monk fast. You will get lucky streaks where you avoid almost everything, and unlucky streaks where you get hit by almost everything. It sucks for someone having to heal a monk, and, of course, it sucks as the monk because you tend to die a lot more when pulling for raids.
 Signature On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr> Elder Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Prophet of 65 seasons Tainniel Fleabane, Halfling Warrior of 32 seasons Giluven, Wood Elf Druid of 29 seasons Graeniel, High Elf Enchanter of 25 seasons
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