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Game Forum / Role Playing Games / EverQuest / August 2004

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Which Table are you on?

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Lance Berg - 29 Aug 2004 20:12 GMT
Sounds, I know, like some annoying learn spanish at home in your spare
time phrase.

But.

I was browsing thru one of the web forums, where I saw someone mention
that Berserkers are on the Plate Tank table.

I've heard before that there are several different defensive tables, and
that which one you are on matters a great deal.

For example, I've heard (and even repeated) that Clerics and perhaps
bards, despite wearing in some cases the very same pieces of plate armor
as "real" tanks, despite having the same AC figure, seem to take hits a
lot more like a post nerf monk, supposedly because they are on a
different table.

This is, I think, supposed to be in addition to avoidance, (which is to
say the various dodge, parry, riposte, block skills,) and all the AA out
there to affect sponging.

Now A) I don't know what the tables even -are-.  Are they

I) Warrior/Knight
II) Ranger/Rogue/Beastlord
III) Monk/Bard/Cleric
IV) Int Caster

and B) How do they relate?

and C) Is this the same as soft cap, or is that yet another factor?

and D) Does this have anything to do with offense, or is it merely about
defense?

and E) Is this about avoidance, mitigation, both, niether, or... what?

and F) Where do Berserkers land on that list above; I assumed given that
they are wearing chain they'd be on table II), but from the one post I
saw mentioning them it seems like they may be on table I), just as
clerics and bards, who wear plate, should be on table I) but are on
table II) instead (unless I'm wrong about that)

Grage, 55 Berzerk, Luclin
Sean Kennedy - 29 Aug 2004 20:46 GMT
Lance Berg <emporer@dejazzd.com> wrote in news:MbCdnX6fvZAvt6_cRVn-
iA@dejazzd.com:

> Sounds, I know, like some annoying learn spanish at home in your spare
> time phrase.
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> III) Monk/Bard/Cleric
> IV) Int Caster

This might help a little (or just raise more quesitons :) )

http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5868

Signature

Arch Convoker Mairelon Snapbang
Feral Lord Bosra Snowclaw
 Vacationing in the south of Faydwer
 for the forseeable future.

an Laoch,  8th Level Tanker

Lance Berg - 29 Aug 2004 21:30 GMT
> Lance Berg <emporer@dejazzd.com> wrote in news:MbCdnX6fvZAvt6_cRVn-
> iA@dejazzd.com:
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>
> http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5868

Doesn't help me out much, because A) I don't really understand much of
it, and B) it is discussing classes which have time+ gear and full
defensive AAs and worse C) it doesn't include Berserkers anyway, not to
mention D) it doesn't include bards either, so I can test the rumor that
bards and clerics are on a different table than warriors and knights.

Further, the classes weren't at even close to the same AC, I'd think it
would have been a simple enough matter to control AC by stripping off
some gear and by using Faith instead of Virtue so you could add or not
add Ward of Gallantry.

Then some classes had defensive augments and some didn't.

Ideally, this should be done at 100 AC intervals from 1K to 2K AC for
each class, in each case using characters as close in gear/aa as feasible.

Then, taking a character without a given AA, getting him that AA, and
trying it again at the same AC, deliberately changing nothing about the
situation but that one AA.

The way this test was done is a lot like taking all the people in an
elementary school, sorting them by race and height, and then making
conclusions about the connection between race and height while ignoring
age and diet.

Still, I'll give this a shot:

Progression
warrior
monk
Paladin
shadow knight
ranger
rogue
beast
cleric
shaman
druid

Plate melee plus monk, chain melee, beastlord, then priests again in
order plate, chain, leather.

Odd man out is the monk, who is in the middle of the plate classes for
some reason, despite a nerf that I'm told put him deep in the priest
regions.

Of course the problem is that he takes damage like a warrior but has HP
like a druid

Still, back to berserker.  I'm looking over the chart trying to see
-why- the order is the way it is.  It looks to me as though it isn't
about any one thing, its about all of them added together; or rather its
about mitigation and avoidance multiplied together.

I don't know what the mitigation of a berserker is, but the avoidance
should be relatively easy to find; looking at the chart this seems to be
the result of block dodge parry riposte... and some other factor I don't
get, which shows in the miss% column (which apparantly factors out the
above).

Various classes seem to score in those areas just as you might expect by
their skill caps in them, with NA where they don't have a skill.

OK, Berserkers have dodge, parry, and riposte, with caps of 175, 175,
and 225; they lack block entirely.

Is the Miss thing based on Defense?  Berserker defense cap is 240

And from there I'm really lost.

Grage, 55 Berserk, Luclin
Warrior
Monk
Sean Kennedy - 29 Aug 2004 23:27 GMT

>> http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5868
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> that bards and clerics are on a different table than warriors and
> knights.

The second table is the interesting one - note that the following had no
avoidance, no shielding and had AC within 70 points of one another.

(shld/avd removed as they are zero here)
(DB was 102 for each, so removed it to fit)
(also note, best in fixed width)

CLS - Class
AC - AC with virtue
SHLD - Amount of shielding on items
AVD - Amount of avoidance on items
DB - Damage Bonus of the mob. This is modified by shielding.
DI - Damage interval of the mob. This is modified by warrior innate 5%
reduction of the DI.
MIT% - 0% mitigation would be max hits every single time. 100%
mitigation would be min hits every single time.
ATKS - Total number of punch attacks
HIT% - Hits that landed divided by total punch attacks
MISS% - Misses divided by hits that landed plus misses not including
blocks, parries, dodges, or ripostes
BLK% - Blocks divided by total punch attacks
DDG% - Dodges divided by total punch attacks
PRY% - Parries divided by total punch attacks
RIP% - Ripostes divided by total punch attacks
DMG - Avg damage taken per punch attack, basically AVG * HIT%.

CLS AC   DI    AVG MIT% ATKS HIT%  MISS% BLK% DDG% PRY% RIP% DMG
WAR 1380 21    273 64.5 1854 48.1  43.1  NA   4.9  5.9  5.5  131.4
MNK 1331 22.1  317 54.0 2550 46.8  42.1  10.4 4.5  NA   4.4  148.4
RNG 1308 22.1  316 54.2 2026 51.6  40.6  NA   3.6  5.6  4.0  163.3

Note that the Average hit on the monk was nearly the same as that
on the ranger, with only a 22 point difference in AC.

Also note that miss% + blk% + ddg% + pry% + rip% + hit% is greater
than 100.  2 guesses: 1) more than one can happen on a swing or
2) Since percentages are found with parrys/punches, if a bash/kick
got parried/blocked etc then that would skew the numbers.

> Progression
> warrior
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> some reason, despite a nerf that I'm told put him deep in the priest
> regions.

Look at the monks hit% vs. the other classes.  He took the same average
hit as the ranger, he just got hit less.  Based on this (truly
insufficient data) I'd hypothesize (as in just a guess) that mitigation
goes in tiers:

Tier 1: Warriors (with their inherent bonus)
Tier 2: SK, PAL
Tier 3: Monk, Ranger, Rogue, Berserker, Cleric, Bard, Shaman
Tier 4: BL, Druid
Tier 5: Robes

Those are very loose - note that the cleric got hit a bit harder
than an SK with 97 less ac and a bit of avd as opposed to the 2%
shld the cleric had.  But he may actually belong in Tier 2.

> Of course the problem is that he takes damage like a warrior but has
> HP like a druid
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> about any one thing, its about all of them added together; or rather
> its about mitigation and avoidance multiplied together.

That's why average hit is in there, as is hit percentage.  You can
clearly see why the monk took less DPS than the ranger.

> I don't know what the mitigation of a berserker is, but the avoidance
> should be relatively easy to find; looking at the chart this seems to
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> And from there I'm really lost.

What are the caps on ranger Defense/Parry/Riposte/Block?

(quick look up)

Here's why I don't like Caster's realm, they still list Ranger Defense
capped at 200.  I know it got upped, I seem to recall to 240.  I know
my BL caps at 240.  If the rest of the caps are right (no guarantee)
then it's 220 parry, 170 dodge, 150 riposte.

At a guess, berserkers should get hit a little less often.

Signature

Arch Convoker Mairelon Snapbang
Feral Lord Bosra Snowclaw
 Vacationing in the south of Faydwer
 for the forseeable future.

@ndrew - 30 Aug 2004 00:06 GMT
> At a guess, berserkers should get hit a little less often.

Not bad .. except the Berserker is on the knight table.

regards

@ndrew
Lief - 30 Aug 2004 03:22 GMT
> Here's why I don't like Caster's realm, they still list Ranger Defense
> capped at 200.  I know it got upped, I seem to recall to 240.  I know
> my BL caps at 240.  If the rest of the caps are right (no guarantee)
> then it's 220 parry, 170 dodge, 150 riposte.

Close :P Too lazy to type, check magelo for caps.

http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=632063
Sean Kennedy - 30 Aug 2004 04:10 GMT
"Lief" <ask.me.for@it.com> wrote in news:4cwYc.240$I_6.221@newsfe4-
gui.ntli.net:

> http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=632063

220 parry, 170 dodge, 185 riposte and 240 defense.

Thanks Lief.

Signature

Arch Convoker Mairelon Snapbang
Feral Lord Bosra Snowclaw
 Vacationing in the south of Faydwer
 for the forseeable future.

an Laoch,  8th Level Tanker

Jeff Lindholm - 30 Aug 2004 16:03 GMT
>> I) Warrior/Knight
>> II) Ranger/Rogue/Beastlord
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5868

Well I would like to see a little more info with people using at least
similar AC values. Though from personal experience the BST at 1400 AC seems
pretty low, since mine at level 51 is at 1100 AC with self bufs. (A little
twinked but nothing like I would assume time gear should do)
I am assuming the tests where the same guard, so there was no level changes
etc. Maybe do this a little more controlled vs. a caster's pet in a duel or
just a duel vs. a level 65.

Course I am not volunteering to take the time to do this, and I applaud the
person who did the test, just suggesting alternatives :)
Faned - 30 Aug 2004 04:24 GMT
<emporer@dejazzd.com> wrote:

> I was browsing thru one of the web forums, where I saw someone mention
> that Berserkers are on the Plate Tank table.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> III) Monk/Bard/Cleric
> IV) Int Caster

I) Warrior
II) Knight/Bard/Cleric
III) Ranger/Rogue/Shaman/Berserker
IV) Beastlord/Druid
V) Monk
VI) Int Caster

> and B) How do they relate?

I put warriors on a different "table" even though it's probably the same
table as the other plate classes, because they have a bonus that affects the
entire range of hits.  Same reasoning for monks being on their own table,
except it's a penalty.

And clerics are definitely on the same table as the other plate classes.
The difference is they don't have (or don't have the same skill caps on)
dodge/parry/riposte/block, plus they tend to not have the same support AAs,
though most of those AAs are available to them.  On top of that, even though
they wear plate they usually have considerably lower AC (and hp) than the
warriors/knights (same applies to bards).

> and C) Is this the same as soft cap, or is that yet another factor?

Yet another factor.

> and D) Does this have anything to do with offense, or is it merely about
> defense?

There are tables for offense as well.  There are fewer, with the bulk of the
classes grouped into one table and skill caps making the difference in
offense capability.

> and E) Is this about avoidance, mitigation, both, niether, or... what?

Mitigation.  Avoidance seems to be a single table for all classes.

> and F) Where do Berserkers land on that list above; I assumed given that
> they are wearing chain they'd be on table II), but from the one post I
> saw mentioning them it seems like they may be on table I), just as
> clerics and bards, who wear plate, should be on table I) but are on
> table II) instead (unless I'm wrong about that)

Anecdotal evidence, but from watching the beatdown berserkers get when they
steal aggro from a plate tank, they're definitely not on the plate table.
Sean Kennedy - 30 Aug 2004 13:23 GMT
> I) Warrior
> II) Knight/Bard/Cleric
> III) Ranger/Rogue/Shaman/Berserker
> IV) Beastlord/Druid
> V) Monk
> VI) Int Caster

Ok - everything except the monk one makes sense
from the steel warrior parses.  In those they
had a 1300 AC monk (no shld/avd) and 1300 ac
ranger (no shld/avd) take approximately the same average hit
(although the monk avoided far more).  Is there
more than a subjective feeling that supports that?

Signature

Arch Convoker Mairelon Snapbang
Feral Lord Bosra Snowclaw
 Vacationing in the south of Faydwer
 for the forseeable future.

an Laoch,  8th Level Tanker

Faned - 30 Aug 2004 16:17 GMT
<x@y.z> wrote:

> > I) Warrior
> > II) Knight/Bard/Cleric
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> (although the monk avoided far more).  Is there
> more than a subjective feeling that supports that?

Yes, look at more than a single column of those results.  Take a look at the
percentage of hits for maximum, which will give you a (limited) glimpse at
the monk nerf's impact.

Better, draw the curves for the entire distribution of hits for all the
classes and notice that monks and warriors have distinctly different curves
from everybody else due to the way the bonus/penalty affects that
distribution of hits.
Graeme Faelban - 30 Aug 2004 16:26 GMT
> <x@y.z> wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> different curves from everybody else due to the way the bonus/penalty
> affects that distribution of hits.

As I recall, from seeing data in the past, monks have good avoidance,
but, a few lucky hits will drop a monk fast.  You will get lucky streaks
where you avoid almost everything, and unlucky streaks where you get hit
by almost everything.  It sucks for someone having to heal a monk, and,
of course, it sucks as the monk because you tend to die a lot more when
pulling for raids.

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On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Elder Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Prophet of 65 seasons
Tainniel Fleabane, Halfling Warrior of 32 seasons
Giluven, Wood Elf Druid of 29 seasons
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