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Question regarding pet pull

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Hagen Sienhold - 28 Aug 2004 10:42 GMT
Since a recent raid where our guild did not utilize this pet pulling
strategie we have an internal discussion whether this is an exploit or
just a feature of everquest.
When I say pet pull I mean the situation where you pull a single mob out
of a crowd of social mobs with a green pet and don't get the social mobs
aggroed.
In my opinion this is an exploit of the faction the pets are on. But
there are others who disagree. They say SoE must have known this a long
time and did not do anything against it. So it isn't an exploit but a
feature.
Right now I'm pretty unsure. Some say it doesn't even have to do with
the faction.
May be you have some ideas about this?

Hagen
Lance Berg - 28 Aug 2004 12:04 GMT
> Since a recent raid where our guild did not utilize this pet pulling
> strategie we have an internal discussion whether this is an exploit or
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Hagen

If this were the only way to single pull mobs in the game, I might be
supportive of the idea that its an exploit.  But with FD, Lull, Sneak
pull, Zone pull, COTH pull, Rez pull, high level pull, extreme range
pull, charm pull, and I'm sure others I'm either not thinking of, or not
even aware of, the general idea that using method X to single pull is
automatically an exploit strikes me as invalid.

So next you'd have to approach on the basis that this -specific- method
of pulling is a bug.  I'd agree with you if you were talking about zone
line pulling; zone lines are an artifact of the way they set up the
game, and for the most part make no sense within the context of the game
itself.  Why would something stop chasing you just because you crossed
an arbitrary line, say the one between WC and EC?

But I'm not so sure you'll be able to convince me pet aggro is similar.
 Faction is a concept imbedded deeply into the game; its not congruent
to any Real Life phenomenum, but works entirely on in game logic.  It
is, however, observable, and not only can you act differently towards
mob in game based on these observations, you -must- do so.

Take as an example, invisiblity.  If there's a mob you are KOS to, and
invis makes you not KOS, then you might suppose that you could pull him,
then run around the corner, cast invis, and he'd be unable to find you
any more than he could before you pulled him.  Not so.  In fact, if you
aggro him, then run out of follow range so he goes home, then wait
around for an hour before casting invis and trying to sneak past him,
he'll still be on you instantly.  Because he's more alert?  No, because
your buddy who -isn't- on the hate list can invis and walk right past
him repeatedly.

To me, if I can sneak past someone, and my buddy can sneak past someone,
then an hour later we should still both be able to sneak past him, or
neither of us.  But thats not the way things work on Norrath.

Point being, pet pull works based on faction, and we have to take things
that work on faction based on internal consistency in the game, not on
comparison to real life situations.

Lets try a different approach: unintended utility.  Well, here let me
say this.  Pet classes have been getting the shaft where it comes to
utility on raids for a long time.   Many raids, pets aren't allowed at
all, or only to high end players who have gotten specific AA to give
them the control they should always (IMO) have had all along.  Finding a
raid level situation where pets are a help rather than (or perhaps in
addition to) a hinderance is a "good thing".

So, to sum up: Its not doing something that is generally outlawed, its
not using something that is an unintended artifact of the way the game
world is represented by the program, and its not giving someone who is
already overpowered a further massive advantage.

If you can come up with some other definition of Exploit that might
explain why you think this fits that description, though, I'd be happy
to entertain the notion.

Grage, 54 Berzerk, Luclin
Splendid One, 65 Mage, Firiona Vie
Hagen Sienhold - 28 Aug 2004 17:41 GMT
> But I'm not so sure you'll be able to convince me pet aggro is similar.
>   Faction is a concept imbedded deeply into the game; its not congruent
> to any Real Life phenomenum, but works entirely on in game logic.  It
> is, however, observable, and not only can you act differently towards
> mob in game based on these observations, you -must- do so.

> Point being, pet pull works based on faction, and we have to take things
> that work on faction based on internal consistency in the game, not on
> comparison to real life situations.
So it is a faction issue then? I wasn't so sure as someone in my guild
came up with the idea it could be based on level difference. Though I
don't know why a mob should not aggro on a green pet when one of its
buddies is pulled.

> Lets try a different approach: unintended utility.  Well, here let me
> say this.  Pet classes have been getting the shaft where it comes to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> raid level situation where pets are a help rather than (or perhaps in
> addition to) a hinderance is a "good thing".

> So, to sum up: Its not doing something that is generally outlawed, its
> not using something that is an unintended artifact of the way the game
> world is represented by the program, and its not giving someone who is
> already overpowered a further massive advantage.

> If you can come up with some other definition of Exploit that might
> explain why you think this fits that description, though, I'd be happy
> to entertain the notion.
I'm trying to make my point more clear. If I remember correctly pets are
set on beta neutral faction. This was deliberatily done to avoid trouble
when pets were going all over the zone due to bad pathing. So now they
can run everywhere and don't aggro anything.
If I'm still right to assume that exactly this faction issue is what
avoids the social aggro then I'm thinking this could be interpreted as
an exploit.
The thing that bothers me with this pulling method is that it defies
scripted events which rely on adds.
It's just a whim of me to fight honorable. :) And just circumvent aggro
rules strikes me as not so honorable. Or to name it - as an exploit.

Hagen
Lance Berg - 28 Aug 2004 21:34 GMT
>>But I'm not so sure you'll be able to convince me pet aggro is similar.
>>  Faction is a concept imbedded deeply into the game; its not congruent
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> don't know why a mob should not aggro on a green pet when one of its
> buddies is pulled.

I don't know, I was basing this entirely on your post, which seemed to
indicate you were using the pet's beta nuetral faction in order to pull
singles somehow.

>>Lets try a different approach: unintended utility.  Well, here let me
>>say this.  Pet classes have been getting the shaft where it comes to
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> avoids the social aggro then I'm thinking this could be interpreted as
> an exploit.
I don't think this will work if the pet attacks something which is
social; the other mobs will add in defense regardless of the faction of
the attacker.  However, it might work to single pull mobs which are KOS
to all, but specifically -not- social.  You could send pet in to attack
 a mob and then back it out to the group with only the target
following, while perhaps nobody else would be able to get in range to
pull said mob single, due to a large aggro range and pull area geometry
preventing LOS without getting close enough for the mobs to all come.

However, another obvious way to accomplish the same pull would be for a
monk to prox aggro the room, pull out to a long site  line spot, and
have someone tag while he goes FD.  The mobs won't add because they
aren't social, and they won't attack the tagger since he's out of aggro
range.

This is merely an alternate approach to the same problem, if I'm
understanding it correctly.

> The thing that bothers me with this pulling method is that it defies
> scripted events which rely on adds.

I don't see how thats a problem; strategy is about overcoming the
enemies plans with superior plans of your own.  If the hard thing about
a fight is the adds, you have several options; one, tank em all.  Two,
CC em so you can fight one at a time.  Three, single pull to avoid adds.

Three is the most effective way of doing this if the mobs are difficult.

> It's just a whim of me to fight honorable. :) And just circumvent aggro
> rules strikes me as not so honorable. Or to name it - as an exploit.

Honorable is something for your concience and your personal chivalric
rules.  You could, for example, refuse to ever kill or help to kill any
mob which is Ally faction to you.  I did that, and eventually ended up
quitting the characters in question because the guilds I was in kept
making a fuss about that.  However, to violate that rule would not be an
exploit, it would just voilate my personal code.

Exploit, however, is an actual violation of the rules of the game; for
example, it was until recently possible to cross Siren's Grottoe by
logging out in a corner, then logging back in, two or three times and
you'd appear at the succor point.  This worked because the game had
trouble figuring out where you were supposed to be, and gave up and put
you at the safe spot.  This was using a game error to your benefit, and
was certainly an exploit.

It seems to me that the mobs in the strategy you are discussing are
acting just as you would expect, knowing about faction and about pet
faction and about such things as social and "help your buddy" aggro
types.  I can't be sure, because I'm not certain I understand exactly
whats going on, but if I'm right about how it works, I don't think its
an exploit, I think its a tactic.  It might still feel dishonorable to
you, which is fine, figure out how to do the fight without using it,
just like I figured out how to cross SG without using the corner
exploit... eventually (because I'm not as stuck on not using exploits as
I am on not breaking my -own- honor code)

Grage, 55 Berzerk, Luclin
42 - 30 Aug 2004 23:49 GMT
> Lets try a different approach: unintended utility.  Well, here let me
> say this.  Pet classes have been getting the shaft where it comes to
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> explain why you think this fits that description, though, I'd be happy
> to entertain the notion.

I think unintended utility is a perfectly good description of an
exploit, and applies to pet pulling perfectly.

Your counter-argument misses the mark, alleging that pets are a
hindrance in raids does not somehow make pet pulling less of an exploit.

They are separate issues.

Consider SOEs position on Pet Canni... its the same argument really.
Extra utility from utiliy deprived pets.

On the flip side, their -is- possibly a counterbalancing argument that
argues in favour of pet pulling as legit. The very same mechanics that
enable pet pulling make pets very dangerous to use at low levels.

Consider a 15th level mage in the warrens: the pet will pull swarms of
adds that would have not jumped the PC. Worse the adds are all
runners... and will run at 50% health (very quickly pulling swarms
more)...

FWIW I'm not convinced that either should happen. I think mobs should
react to the pet as if its your level, and your faction if its engaged.
And should ignore it completely if its not engaged.
Vladesch - 28 Aug 2004 15:23 GMT
> Since a recent raid where our guild did not utilize this pet pulling
> strategie we have an internal discussion whether this is an exploit or
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Hagen

I think that to be able to pet pull, you need to be high enough level so
they dont chain agro.
All the pet pull does is let you agro the mob without getting too close to
the others.
If you were out in the open, you wouldnt need it, you could just single pull
with a dd.

So no, I dont think it realy does enough to be called exploit.
Hagen Sienhold - 28 Aug 2004 17:45 GMT
> I think that to be able to pet pull, you need to be high enough level so
> they dont chain agro.
> All the pet pull does is let you agro the mob without getting too close to
> the others.
> If you were out in the open, you wouldnt need it, you could just single pull
> with a dd.

> So no, I dont think it realy does enough to be called exploit.
Thank you.
The reason for my question is the vallon zek encounter. We are only
about 30-35 people on a raid and just starting to work our way up. And
as we already have beaten the encounter with the pet pulling strategy we
are looking to beat it more satisfactory.

Hagen
Darkensolo - 28 Aug 2004 18:11 GMT
>Since a recent raid where our guild did not utilize this pet pulling
>strategie we have an internal discussion whether this is an exploit or
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>the faction.
>May be you have some ideas about this?

I don't think it's an exploit.  

Look at it this way:  Sure, you can pet pull with a green pet; but to
balance things out, when the mob is at camp you have a green pet...

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-martin - 29 Aug 2004 13:22 GMT
> On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:42:27 +0200, Hagen Sienhold <durragon@web.de>
> I don't think it's an exploit.
>
> Look at it this way:  Sure, you can pet pull with a green pet; but to
> balance things out, when the mob is at camp you have a green pet...

That doesn't balance out an exploit.........

-m
Darkensolo - 29 Aug 2004 21:54 GMT
>> On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:42:27 +0200, Hagen Sienhold <durragon@web.de>
>> I don't think it's an exploit.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>That doesn't balance out an exploit.........

I may have missed if you replied to this thread earlier.  

Why do you feel pet-pulling is an exploit?
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Elder Lizsolo Spiritmaster - 65 Beastlord
Baron Darkensolo - 65 Cleric
Jester Rachsolo - 45 Bardling

Rodcet Nife

Graeme Faelban - 30 Aug 2004 14:48 GMT
>>> On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:42:27 +0200, Hagen Sienhold <durragon@web.de>
>>> I don't think it's an exploit.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Why do you feel pet-pulling is an exploit?

He did not actually say it is, he was just correctly pointing out the
flaw in your logic.  The fact that you have a green pet in no way
balances out using an exploit.  Whether or not it actually is an exploit
is a different question.

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Sean Kennedy - 30 Aug 2004 14:57 GMT
> He did not actually say it is, he was just correctly pointing out the
> flaw in your logic.  The fact that you have a green pet in no way
> balances out using an exploit.  Whether or not it actually is an
> exploit is a different question.

Most people I know who used pet pulls also had suspended
minion 2 - you're 4 seconds from your fully buffed pet.

I tried it a couple of times, but the few occasions where
we needed to single pull, we had a cleric take care of
pacifying - pet pulls were just too much of a pain.

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Darkensolo - 30 Aug 2004 16:01 GMT
>> He did not actually say it is, he was just correctly pointing out the
>> flaw in your logic.  The fact that you have a green pet in no way
>> balances out using an exploit.  Whether or not it actually is an
>> exploit is a different question.

Good point.  I could've expressed my thoughts more clearly.  Hopefully
you got the drift of it though.

>Most people I know who used pet pulls also had suspended
>minion 2 - you're 4 seconds from your fully buffed pet.
>
>I tried it a couple of times, but the few occasions where
>we needed to single pull, we had a cleric take care of
>pacifying - pet pulls were just too much of a pain.

I have to agree with your last paragraph here.   But then I've never
tried (or seen it tried) on raids - and probably never will.  
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