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class balance - yes yes yawnorama, but not for me :)

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James Hicks - 26 Apr 2004 14:52 GMT
Let me begin by saying: The last thing I want from Sony is another nerf to
any class. I benefit from the uberness of the uber.

Secondly: What in god's name possesed them to introduce another dps melee?
Can anyone think of even a BAD reason to do so? Monks and rogues are almost
dead as a class, it is CLEAR they're having real problems thinking of stuff
for pure melee's to do, WHY compound it by adding yet another class to this
fallen category?

Thirdly: I am a 65/101 shadowknight who caps out at 7,474hp. I consider
myself fairly average for a 65 SK on my server. I state my class and status
to clarify my viewpoint more than anything. This is important to note as my
comments will be WAY off base for both (Eg) level 30 characters, and
full-time raiding folk who are now Elemental, Time, or GoDing it up. I will
of course be delighted to hear from other viewpoints.

Lastly: following is a list of classes and my thoughts, in many cases
ill-informed (those of you who play those classes please step forward and
swipe away :).

Monk: A guildie of mine is a monk. Aside from him, I rarely see monks at all
anymore. When monk tanking was nerfed, at first I felt vindicated - and then
I realised they weren't just put behind plate classes - they were put back
so far they cannot tank at all. I also regularly out-dps this monk. We have
a comparable number of AA's. Monks, like SK's *used* to have the benefit of
FD pulling, however this has been more or less arbitrarily erased from the
game. Monks cannot solo. Monks have poor applicability to groups, and monks
are no longer terribly useful on raids. Their tanking and pulling abilities
are next to dead, and their DPS is behind every single class that considers
itself DPS, and in many cases behind hybrids as well.

Rogue: I haven't logged a rogue recently. Last time I did, I wasn't that
impressed, but they certainly left monks for dead. I can't *Really* comment
here, but for the sake of completeness, I *imagine* these guys are barely
behind of monks in the "forgotten class" stakes.

Shadowknights: Like monks, we used to FD pull. I literally have not used FD
to pull in *six months*. It is useless in any time-limit situation, and even
where my guild raids, we're either pulling hordes to clear them - in which
case a shammy with AOE slow pulls for us - or taking on a single mob. My
tanking is quite rightly below that of a warrior, however I no longer am
really ahead of a similarly geared warrior in agro generation. A warrior can
generate agro more or less well enough for any group not to consider an SK
over a warrior. Further, I have been arbitrarily f.cked in tanking VS
paladins, who now have an extra spell that stacks with V+Brells, giving a
pally with identical gear several hundred HP more than I do. As is
mathematically evident, a few hundred HP is *irrelevant*, however the
in-game fact is that in people's minds, a few hundred HP is enough to decide
one over the other. I simply do not tank on raids except in dire
emergencies. Further, paladin tanking is easier to bring up than
shadowknight - stuns are more readily available than *useable* vampirism. My
earlier vampiric joy at using Bond of Death has vaporised - 80/tick is now
irrelevant and the spell is not replaced with a useable one. My lifetaps
began being irrelevant at level 9, and could be now removed from the game as
an entire spell line without any effect on the class whatsoever. I will
require many more AA's to build up lifetap-procs into something I can
vaguely mitigate with. My DPS, although too high in comparison to a pure
melee, lags so incredibly far behind other hybrids and especially casters as
to vanish into total irrelevance. As an incredibly difficult and
disheartening class to level to 65, I feel shadowknights should be at least
on par balancewise, to any class. I'm also at a total loss as to why my
ability to Solo, never a threat to anybody, has been arbitrarily removed
from the game. My hybridness with necros is *Still* not realised, as I am
still paying Necro mana costs for old necro spells, without necro mana
regeneration (or five seconds out of any minute to med). The interesting
thing is that I can generate almost FT10 for a group, and with another spell
from GoD I might get in the next 12 months I can extend that to FT20 -
however I would have to spend 20 minutes with a spreadsheet, sliderule and
whiteboard proving this to a prospective group. Frankly, this
irrelevant-to-the-sk-theme ability has come too late to save us from total
obscurity. The inevitable response to this 20 minute discourse is "ok... but
what is a 'shadowknight'". In skelly form I am invariably mistaken for a
necro by any stranger (even in my own guild) who groups with me.

Paladins: Only slightly less forgotten that shadowknights, these hybrid
tanks enjoy the single worst DPS in the game, save for clerics and mebee
druids, and except of course against undead (if you have more AA's than your
local uberguild has a.sholes). Elevated slightly above shadowknights in
tanking via stun-mitigation and a few extra HP, my knight brothers are still
too far behind warriors to be noticed, and are only in use in my guild
because we have only one warrior who turns up regularly to raids. This
class's hybrid clericness is *Still* far from realised in-game; their heals
are *Still* so far behind as to be near irrelevant - occasional mana savers
at best.

Warriors: Much as these amiable gentle giants seem to be delighted with the
prospect of being top-tank again in all areas (a position I in no way ever
wish to threaten again - the cost is too f.cking awful), I still think their
overall balance within the game is just barely above the totally screwed
classes I have just finished w.nking on about. Or perhaps it is the mind
numbing one-dimensionality of this class that gives me waves of nausea
trying to stack them up against almost anything else? Still - being top-tank
isn't THAT great in a game where almost half the population are tanks of
some sort, and 99% of groups want... one. And warrior soloing is never a
credible option. On the other-other hand, it can't be all that bad being a
warrior; as the lvl-65-population of them seems to outnumber SK's and
pallies combined.

Wizard: After 65 levels and 100AA's these guys can nuke noticeably better
than mages (hooray). Who have beaten them to death all along with their pet,
and continue to beat them at this level. Manaburn may's well be deleted, as
can porting and even evacs - by the time you've done casting it, the
Death-Touch-Quadding mobs have eaten your friends. And you. Another
one-dimensional class now that their utility has been reduced to a quick way
back to the Brotherhood camp after your LDoN adventure. Nevertheless, their
ludicrous high-end DPS, especially in bursts on raids, keeps them well above
the "forgotten" crowd. A case of 50% of the character being forgotten, and
the other 50% being so uber they're kinda balanced now - if a little one
dimensional.

Druid: The great root-rotting soloist is a mediocre nobody in the world of
30-second fights and 80% group bonuses. His abrupt re-re-re-training as a
healer has saved his grouping neck, and charm soloing remains a cool
option - but he's the bottom of the top rungs.

Necro: Another great soloer - now reduced to mana-factory status in groups.
Lusted after still for slightly-better-than-useless-DPS, quite good at
single-mob crowd control (A group which can handle one mob per member is
bloody awesome) and rarely turned down by folks who don't like running OOM,
these guys are off their high horse and up sh.t creek with the rest of us,
but they sure have a paddle.

Zerker: wtf?

Shaman: These guys aren't currently stuffed, but they're definitely on the
way back down. They can solo, they're *lusted* after for groups, they're
critical on raids... but they work their reeking a.ses off to get (and stay)
there, and have very little to look forward to right now.

Ranger: If you can save up 50k, or sell ALL of your gear to reach it, you
can be stark naked except for your stonewood and still out-dps most classes.
You can kind-of-tank exp-PoP but why bother? With so many unemployed tanks
out on the streets begging for food... And hats off to you, you ate sh.t for
60 levels getting there!

Cleric: We're in the top rungs now. Any group that doesn't already have a
cleric will take a cleric. A lot of groups who do already have a cleric will
take a cleric. A raiding guild with 97 clerics will take another cleric.
They can't solo for sh.t, mostly because of all the tells they get, begging
them to join a group or guild. Who could be alone with all that lust raining
down on them?

Enchanter: A slight fall from total king of the pops has not mitigated this
guy's top-notch solo, group and raid desireability. Also a wonderfully fun
class to play, tons of dimension, no shortage of options. A bit papertanky
for me, but I still adore my little chanter alt.

Beastlord: Any group, guild, or park bench that says 'no' to a beastlord
should be shot, hung, drawn, quartered and made to watch reruns of the brady
bunch. A monk with some nukes and a necro-level pet - and shammy spells from
3 levels ago. Plus your very own stacks-with-C mana regeneratorernator.
These guys have never worked an honest day in their life :o)

Mage: Highest DPS class in the game - but NOT a pure DPS class (how's that
for unbalanced?). I group regularly with a mage who has 300AA's.
Essentially, grouping with a mage means pulling fast enough to feed him a
steady steam of mobs to shred. This guy's pet tanks almost as well as I do,
better if you count the fact that his owner can heal him, whereas I don't
have an owner. Or healing worth a damn. His pet almost eclipses my damage
too. The 2nd best nuker in the game, and for argument's sake capable of
soloing. NO group who has a healer and slower will turn a mage down. No
guild will turn a mage down if he's in their league. The life of a mage:
take a break from DPS only long enough to completely shame tanks with your
pet, or do some CC, or summon something jaw-dropping and vital. Or CoTH, or
pull, or DS, or modrod, or...

Bard:  Still absolutely crapping on everyone else, but remaining rare due to
the fact that people who play bards hands come off and jitter around on the
floor in their mid 60's. Or earlier.

Ok so there you gottit. Maybe tomorrow I'll stop whining and post some
positive suggestions :)

Cheers,
James
-martin - 26 Apr 2004 17:00 GMT
> Monk: A guildie of mine is a monk. Aside from him, I rarely see monks at all
> anymore. When monk tanking was nerfed, at first I felt vindicated -

Using 3 plane of time+ guilds on my server to base my response..
Each guild has an average of 4 monks.. 1.5 beastlords.. 1.5 SK's.. 4 palis..
5 rangers.. 4 rogues

This doesnt rate terribly differently to the numbers I saw on Prexus for
several years either.

> I realised they weren't just put behind plate classes - they were put back
> so far they cannot tank at all.

Not true

> I also regularly out-dps this monk.

Which weapons do you both use?

> a comparable number of AA's. Monks, like SK's *used* to have the benefit of
> FD pulling, however this has been more or less arbitrarily erased from the
> game.

I use FD in raids, elemental groups and ldons.. which part was it erased
from?

> Monks cannot solo.

Nope, not very well.

> and monks are no longer terribly useful on raids. Their tanking and
pulling abilities
> are next to dead

I don't believe that 1 single bit

> and their DPS is behind every single class that considers
> itself DPS, and in many cases behind hybrids as well.

Logs, please.
At the level i play, thats not even close to being true.

> Shadowknights: Like monks, we used to FD pull. I literally have not used FD
...
> on par balancewise, to any class. I'm also at a total loss as to why my
> ability to Solo, never a threat to anybody, has been arbitrarily removed
> from the game.

A friend just recently servermoved to apply to my guild.. hes not PoTime
geared or anything of the sort. 6k hp unbuffed, BoT weapon.. so hes closer
to you than me in terms of gear, flags and such. (He is an SK)

He solos in Kod'Taz and Yxtta with ease.  Some mobs summon, but most don't.
FD is a good enough get out of jail card for that.. so where exactly has an
SK's soloability been removed?

> Paladins: Only slightly less forgotten that shadowknights, these hybrid
> tanks enjoy the single worst DPS in the game, save for clerics and mebee
> druids, and except of course against undead (if you have more AA's than your
> local uberguild has a.sholes).

I think bards come in considerably below paladins for DPS...

> class's hybrid clericness is *Still* far from realised in-game; their heals
> are *Still* so far behind as to be near irrelevant - occasional mana savers
> at best.

Lol. A paladin who thinks and believes that is somebody who will never be
better than abysmal at his class.

> Wizard: After 65 levels and 100AA's these guys can nuke noticeably better
> than mages (hooray). Who have beaten them to death all along with their pet,
> and continue to beat them at this level.

/boggle

> Manaburn may's well be deleted, as can porting and even evacs - by the
time you've done casting it, the
> Death-Touch-Quadding mobs have eaten your friends. And you.

Exodus is pretty much an instant cas evac spell.. their port spells are
always desirable. Ae Tl more so, and Natimbi port even more so.

> Necro: Another great soloer - now reduced to mana-factory status in groups.
> Lusted after still for slightly-better-than-useless-DPS, quite good at

Necro DPS is high, potentially very high indeed.  You know.. these class
descriptions you are posting.. really makes me boggle and wonder about the
sort of people you are grouping and playing with

> Ok so there you gottit. Maybe tomorrow I'll stop whining and post some
> positive suggestions :)

If you can never look to the GOOD things your class can do.. you will NEVER
be happy or satisfied..

-m
Graeme Faelban - 26 Apr 2004 17:26 GMT
>> Monk: A guildie of mine is a monk. Aside from him, I rarely see monks
>> at all anymore. When monk tanking was nerfed, at first I felt
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> This doesnt rate terribly differently to the numbers I saw on Prexus
> for several years either.

Just to add to this from something closer to James' level...

I am a level 65 shaman, 140ish AAs, in a guild of almost all 65s, with
AAs ranging from none to 400ish, hitting places like Ssra, NToV, Terris
Thule, Manaetic Behemoth, and getting lots of equipment upgrades from all
of them yet.

>> I realised they weren't just put behind plate classes - they were put
>> back so far they cannot tank at all.
>
> Not true

Several of our monks still tank, sure, not as well as the warriors and
knights, but, they do it in a pinch.

>> I also regularly out-dps this monk.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I use FD in raids, elemental groups and ldons.. which part was it
> erased from?

Same here, FD is used for pulling in many zones, and in groups, and even
LDoNs (although rarely there, as speed is important).

>> Monks cannot solo.
>
> Nope, not very well.

Agreed.

>> and monks are no longer terribly useful on raids. Their tanking and
>> pulling abilities are next to dead
>
> I don't believe that 1 single bit

Our pull team consists of 2 to 4 monks, a rogue or two for scouting, and
usually one SK.

>> and their DPS is behind every single class that considers itself DPS,
>> and in many cases behind hybrids as well.
>
> Logs, please.
> At the level i play, thats not even close to being true.

Would love to see them too.

>> Shadowknights: Like monks, we used to FD pull. I literally have not
>> used
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> don't. FD is a good enough get out of jail card for that.. so where
> exactly has an SK's soloability been removed?

Several SK friends of mine, some in guild, some not, regularly solo, not
quite sure what he is talking about either.

>> Paladins: Only slightly less forgotten that shadowknights, these
>> hybrid tanks enjoy the single worst DPS in the game, save for clerics
>> and mebee druids, and except of course against undead (if you have
>> more AA's than your local uberguild has a.sholes).
>
> I think bards come in considerably below paladins for DPS...

Yep, but still great to have one around.

>> class's hybrid clericness is *Still* far from realised in-game; their
>> heals are *Still* so far behind as to be near irrelevant - occasional
>> mana savers at best.
>
> Lol. A paladin who thinks and believes that is somebody who will never
> be better than abysmal at his class.

I love having a paladin in my group when I am the main healer, it means I
get to nuke, dot, melee, because I don't have to do much healing.

>> Wizard: After 65 levels and 100AA's these guys can nuke noticeably
>> better than mages (hooray). Who have beaten them to death all along
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Exodus is pretty much an instant cas evac spell.. their port spells
> are always desirable. Ae Tl more so, and Natimbi port even more so.

It'd be a real bitch getting the raid out of some places without have AE
TL available.

>> Necro: Another great soloer - now reduced to mana-factory status in
>> groups. Lusted after still for slightly-better-than-useless-DPS,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> class descriptions you are posting.. really makes me boggle and wonder
> about the sort of people you are grouping and playing with

Necros rock.  80hp/tick group lifetap.  Group manatap.  Awesome DoTs,
with FD to slough the agro.  And, in a pinch, when really needed, they
can feed mana to seriously speed up recovery from death and to keep a
healer or CCer going when things get rough.

>> Ok so there you gottit. Maybe tomorrow I'll stop whining and post
>> some positive suggestions :)
>
> If you can never look to the GOOD things your class can do.. you will
> NEVER be happy or satisfied..

Signature

On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Elder Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Prophet of 65 seasons
Tainniel Fleabane, Halfling Warrior of 32 seasons
Giluven, Wood Elf Druid of 26 seasons
Graeniel, High Elf Enchanter of 25 seasons

Rumbledor - 26 Apr 2004 18:08 GMT
< snip wet blanket of at least partial misinformation >

>> Ok so there you gottit. Maybe tomorrow I'll stop whining and post
>> some positive suggestions :)
>
> If you can never look to the GOOD things your class can do.. you will
> NEVER be happy or satisfied..

/agree high

We can all find disadvantages with every class. Many people play a monk
or paladin, for example, because they like the character, not because
they parse out at a certain level. Good grief, get your head out of the
math and try to enjoy the game a bit. :P

However, you did qualify that this was from the perspective of the high-
end game, though. Maybe it gets to be more of a picking of nits at that
level. I wouldn't know yet. Your post just had a bit of a depressing
tone. /shrug

Signature

Rumble

"Am I jumpin' from tree to tree all nimbly-bimbly?!"

Don Woods - 26 Apr 2004 23:09 GMT
> > I also regularly out-dps this monk.
>
> Which weapons do you both use?

I meant to ask this in the "what's the role of a monk" thread
when someone brought up weapons, but I lost track of that post
and remembered it when I saw the above remark.

Like someone else in that thread, my monk picked up a pair of
Polished Steel Ulaks early in his career, and is finding them
a bit weak at level 30.  But I'm having trouble deciding what
to replace them with.  I've got a bit under 10K saved up (after
buying various other gear) and I try to search the bazaar, but
it's hard, partly because the bazaar search window doesn't let
me filter on (a) damage/delay ratio or (b) weight.  (For that
matter, it won't let me filter on "Hand To Hand".)

The Ulaks are damage/delay = 9/27, weigh 1.1, and give 25 HP
plus a little AC, STR, and other stats.  I've picked up a
Master Wu's Trance Stick at 7/18 with a damage bonus (which
applies how, exactly?), weighs 1.0, no stats, and will proc
for extra damage when I reach level 35 I think.  I also have
an Essence of Dol (10/28, weight 0.1, DEX +5) that I use for
skilling up 1HB.  And I managed to scavenge-loot a Steel Rod
of the Knight from a skel commander, 2HB 35/44, 10 HP plus
some other stats.

I look at things like Knuckle Dusters and see better damage
ratio, but no stats.  Or an Etched Steel Baton for the same
ratio (14/28), but not a lot of stats and weight 3.0.  Those
50 HP from the two batons are a lot at level 30.  Is the extra
damage worth giving up the stats?  Are the ESB stats worth the
extra weight?

Basically, what weapons do folks recommend for a level 30 monk
that I can either quest for or buy at under 10K?

    -- Don.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
-- Sukrasisx, Monk 30 on E. Marr       Note: If you reply by mail,
-- Terrwini, Druid 17 on E. Marr       I'll get to it sooner if you
-- http://www.iCynic.com/~don          remove the "hyphen n s"
Tyas_MT - 27 Apr 2004 00:53 GMT
> > > I also regularly out-dps this monk.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> me filter on (a) damage/delay ratio or (b) weight.  (For that
> matter, it won't let me filter on "Hand To Hand".)
I believe the term for the h2h weapon filter is 'martial' iirc
Tolkienfan - 27 Apr 2004 00:56 GMT
> Basically, what weapons do folks recommend for a level 30 monk
> that I can either quest for or buy at under 10K?

For your 2HB I would say a Peacebringer
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=568
These go pretty cheap on Stromm so I assume the older servers are even
better.  Usually in the 1K-2Kpp range.

For H2H the Bladed Knuckles of Submission
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=19346 are fairly cheap.
Saw a set selling for 800pp in Stromm Bazaar and advised my friend who has a
30 monk to go get them.

For 1HB there are more options.  The Adamantite Club
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=147  I got for 760pp in
Bazaar.  At 46 I started using an Entwood Mace
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=16475 .  These sell for
about 5Kpp.

LM
David Navarro - 27 Apr 2004 01:46 GMT
Quoth Don Woods :

> Basically, what weapons do folks recommend for a level 30 monk
> that I can either quest for or buy at under 10K?

Goranga Spiked Club for the main hand (free)
Stave of Shielding for the off-hand (2 to 4k)
Steel Rod of the Knight for 2HB (no longer drops)

Approaching 40, I bought a Zekhas's Katar. Same ratio as the GSC, but
useful for keeping H2H skilled up. To be honest, I don't find that the
proc makes much of a difference.

Signature

Venerable Hanrahan, Storm Warden (Human), Fennin Ro
Molgarin, 40-odd Monk (Human), Fennin Ro
           
"Actually, the road to Hell is paved with human skulls.
You can feel their teeth chittering through
the soles of your boots as you walk on it."

Faeandar - 27 Apr 2004 02:12 GMT
>Quoth Don Woods :
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>useful for keeping H2H skilled up. To be honest, I don't find that the
>proc makes much of a difference.

How about a PeaceBringer?  Any good?

~JK
David Navarro - 27 Apr 2004 07:54 GMT
Quoth Faeandar :

>>Quoth Don Woods :
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> How about a PeaceBringer?  Any good?

Well, as far as 2HB is concerned, in my case the weapon came first, and
then the need to skill up to use it. I haven't been losing sleep about
upgrading my 2HB weapon, but the ratio on that Peacebringer is pretty
sweet... The weight is rather horrible for a Monk, but this is probably
a secondary consideration these days.

Signature

Venerable Hanrahan, Storm Warden (Human), Fennin Ro
Molgarin, 40-odd Monk (Human), Fennin Ro
           
An Apple a day keeps Microsoft away.

Frank E - 27 Apr 2004 20:44 GMT
>Well, as far as 2HB is concerned, in my case the weapon came first, and
>then the need to skill up to use it. I haven't been losing sleep about
>upgrading my 2HB weapon, but the ratio on that Peacebringer is pretty
>sweet... The weight is rather horrible for a Monk, but this is probably
>a secondary consideration these days.

IFS, if you can find one, is a nice 38/40 2HB that I don't think has a
recommended lvl. There's also an easy to get 2hb that drops in solC,
don't recall if it has a recommended lvl but a group of 50s should be
able to get one in an hour or so.

As for 1hb, I'd go with a Jade Mace and SoS, should be able to get
them for around 3k total and they'd up your damage by about 50% from
the Ulaks.

Rgds, Frank
Faned - 27 Apr 2004 15:46 GMT
<don-ns@iCynic.com> wrote:

> I look at things like Knuckle Dusters and see better damage
> ratio, but no stats.

Get your stats elsewhere.  Weapons are for hitting.  A lot of monks switch
weapons when they're pulling simply because their fighting weapons don't
give them as much hp.

> Basically, what weapons do folks recommend for a level 30 monk
> that I can either quest for or buy at under 10K?

Knuckle Dusters or Jade Mace (my preference) / Stave of Shielding.  I used
two stave of shielding for a while back when it was a 30k item just because
I fought in Chardok a lot and looted them.  The goranga club is free, but
not nearly as easy to get as it used to be since that zone is often nearly
empty these days.  There are a few other decent options, but probably none
as cheap.

That's about the best damage you're gonna get without dropping a serious
chunk of change.

Might want to look at a tranquil staff after you hit 50.
Don Woods - 29 Apr 2004 03:42 GMT
> Knuckle Dusters or Jade Mace (my preference) / Stave of Shielding.  I used
> two stave of shielding for a while back when it was a 30k item just because
> I fought in Chardok a lot and looted them.

Several people mentioned the SoS, but all of them talk about using
it in the secondary slot.  You're the only one who mentioned using
them in the primary.  I ran some numbers, and it seems like at least
through level 57 the SoS gives better DPS than any of the other
suggestions, that 17/28 ratio is awesome compared to things like
14/28 or 9/18 or even 12/23, even once you factor in damage bonus.
So why do people prefer other weapons for the primary slot?

    -- Don.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
-- Sukrasisx, Monk 30 on E. Marr       Note: If you reply by mail,
-- Terrwini, Druid 17 on E. Marr       I'll get to it sooner if you
-- http://www.iCynic.com/~don          remove the "hyphen n s"
Faned - 29 Apr 2004 15:44 GMT
<don-ns@iCynic.com> wrote:
> > Knuckle Dusters or Jade Mace (my preference) / Stave of Shielding.  I used
> > two stave of shielding for a while back when it was a 30k item just because
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> 14/28 or 9/18 or even 12/23, even once you factor in damage bonus.
> So why do people prefer other weapons for the primary slot?

It's a sloooow weapon for main hand.  A lot of monks are addicted to the
spam.  =)
Don Woods - 29 Apr 2004 23:26 GMT
> It's a sloooow weapon for main hand.  A lot of monks are addicted to the
> spam.  =)

But why does weapon speed matter, rather than DPS?  Yeah, I admit
it's nice seeing my strikes spamming up the chat window, but I'd
rather kill the mobs faster!  If the Stave of Shielding swings only
2/3 as often, but does more than 3/2 the damage on average, why
isn't it better?

Okay, I know that faster weapons mean more chances to skill up, and
more chances to proc if the weapon has a proc, but if those aren't
considerations, why else?  Oh, and there's also at least one downside
to a faster weapon: if the target has a damage shield, you'd rather
concentrate your damage into fewer hits.  Actually, I can see wanting
to have primary/secondary weapons of different speeds, to increase
the chance of interrupting a spellcasting mob, but I'm not sure how
much that matters in practice.

    -- Don.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
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-- Terrwini, Druid 17 on E. Marr       I'll get to it sooner if you
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Remington Stone - 29 Apr 2004 23:53 GMT
Don Woods  said:
}Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> writes:
}> It's a sloooow weapon for main hand.  A lot of monks are addicted to the
}> spam.  =)
}But why does weapon speed matter, rather than DPS?  Yeah, I admit
}it's nice seeing my strikes spamming up the chat window, but I'd
}rather kill the mobs faster!  If the Stave of Shielding swings only
}2/3 as often, but does more than 3/2 the damage on average, why
}isn't it better?

Damage bonus.  In the main hand, there is a level-dependent damage bonus
that is added with every hit.  So faster hitting means the damage bonus
gets applied more often.

Mainhand weapond should be compared not with dmg1/dly1 vs. dmg2/dly2 but
with (2*dmg1+bonus)/dly1 vs (2*dmg2+bonus)/dly2.  Further experimentation
shows that the '2' varies as your ATK becomes obscene, but this provides a
much better first approximation.

[65 Coercer] Zinphandel Chianti <Prism> (Gnome) Ayonae Ro
Don Woods - 30 Apr 2004 00:20 GMT
> }But why does weapon speed matter, rather than DPS?  Yeah, I admit
> }it's nice seeing my strikes spamming up the chat window, but I'd
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> shows that the '2' varies as your ATK becomes obscene, but this provides a
> much better first approximation.

Yes, but in my earlier post (snipped at this point, but it's what Faned
was replying to when he said the problem with SoS was it's too slow), I
noted that even using the (2*dmg+bonus)/dly formula, the SoS at 17/28
comes out better than, say, Jade Mace at 9/18 or Zekhas' Katas or Goranga
Spiked Club at 12/23:

    Level 30 (bonus = 1):
        17/28 --> 35/28 = 1.250
        9/18 --> 19/18 = 1.056
    Level 55 (bonus = 10):
        17/28 --> 44/28 = 1.571
        9/18 --> 28/18 = 1.556

I do see that, if you one 17/28 weapon and one 9/18, then after about
level 35 you're better off putting the 9/18 in the primary, assuming you
have a reasonable Dual Wield skill so the secondary weapon swings fairly
often.  But it still looks like you'd be better off with two of the 17/28,
assuming they're not Lore.

Your remark about the "2" varying based on ATK probably answers my other
recent post where I asked how average damage is computed.  I knew about
the "2*dmg+bonus" stuff but couldn't figure out where the "2*" came from.
Of course, nobody seems real sure how to compute ATK, let alone exactly
how ATK affects damage, so I guess I'm stuck with the approximation.

    -- Don.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
-- Sukrasisx, Monk 30 on E. Marr       Note: If you reply by mail,
-- Terrwini, Druid 17 on E. Marr       I'll get to it sooner if you
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Faned - 30 Apr 2004 03:08 GMT
<ez064842@veni.ucdavis.edu> wrote:
> Don Woods  said:
> }Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> writes:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> shows that the '2' varies as your ATK becomes obscene, but this provides a
> much better first approximation.

At level 57

(2*17+10)/28 = 44/28 = 1.57 (SoS)
(2*9+10)/18 = 28/18 = 1.55 (Jade Mace)

That was the question.  He indicated he understood the damage bonus and
asked why monks would choose weapon speed *over* DPS.  I think you answered
it quite well, actually.  Most people don't bother to actually do the math
or any parsing.  =)
Don Woods - 29 Apr 2004 00:36 GMT
> Basically, what weapons do folks recommend for a level 30 monk
> that I can either quest for or buy at under 10K?

I'd like the thank all the folks who replied, and especially the
one who informed me that HTH items are searchable in the Bazaar
window using the term "Martial".  How the bleep I was expected to
figure that out I'll never know!

Now I'm off to crank some damage ratios (primary and off-hand, etc.)
to compare some of the suggestions that got made, while I watch a
bit to see what the typical prices are.

Summary of items mentioned:
1HB/HTH:
 Goranga Spiked Club ("free", but looks a bit beyond my reach at level 30)
 Stave of Shielding
 Zekhas's Katar
 Knuckle Dusters
 Jade Mace
 Etched Steel Baton
2HB:
 Steel Rod of the Knight (I got one of these while they were dropping)
 Peacebringer (nice damage/delay, but heavy)
 Imbued Fighters Staff

    -- Don.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
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-- Terrwini, Druid 17 on E. Marr       I'll get to it sooner if you
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David Navarro - 29 Apr 2004 21:05 GMT
Quoth Don Woods :

>   Goranga Spiked Club ("free", but looks a bit beyond my reach at
> level 30)  

Only a problem if you have to kill the Gorangas yourself, but they are
left to rot with regularity. Your biggest problem will be beating other
twinks to it. :) It's not a hard area to reach, and at 30 you can take a
couple of licks from a Goranga until a successful Feign. After that,
it's just a matter of being patient.

Signature

Venerable Hanrahan, Storm Warden (Human), Fennin Ro
Molgarin, 40-odd Monk (Human), Fennin Ro
           
When it comes to superheroes, few have struck as little fear
in the hearts of villains as The Crimson Ptarmigan.

James Hicks - 28 Apr 2004 12:21 GMT
> > Monk: A guildie of mine is a monk. Aside from him, I rarely see monks at
> all
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Each guild has an average of 4 monks.. 1.5 beastlords.. 1.5 SK's.. 4 palis..
> 5 rangers.. 4 rogues

   Nice to see another PoV - also good to hear from you again Martin...

   My guild has one SK, and one monk - but probably more than half it's
current members joined in the last 12 months, so I would guess it's far more
susceptable to trends than older, more established guilds where folks have
had good gear for years.

> This doesnt rate terribly differently to the numbers I saw on Prexus for
> several years either.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Not true

   I guess that judgement is fairly subjective - I haven't seen a monk tank
SINCE the nerf, so I guess I have no hard data.

> > I also regularly out-dps this monk.
>
> Which weapons do you both use?

   He's got a SoFW, I've got a WMBS.

   My melee is slightly more than half his, but when you add dots, my pet,
etc, I get uncomfortably close.

   For logs, I've got:

   a burrower fight - I logged him at 80dps and me at 91. A small margin,
but the fact is I shouldn't be anywhere NEAR him.

   A couple of Tactics fights:
   him    me
  100   144
   96    61
   78    76
   123    78
   87    111
   105    101
   77    105
   141    100
   123    73
   173    98
   79    83
   91    67
   114    140
   97    110
   134    92
   95    85
   130    109
   98    94
   95 121

   Averages 107, 97? Did I mention I was pulling and tanking throughout,
and probably had a dead pet for some of those fights? :)

   There is no way in hell I should be anywhere NEAR this guy in dps.
Meanwhile, the mage in the same group *usually* managed to output more
damage than both of us put together (and I know for fact he was half-AFK for
bits of that log, not nuking as much as usual), and we had a 63 Epic
berserker with almost no AA's (I think), who easily kept pace with us.. Now,
do you actually want me to send these logs somewhere? Or were you just
interested in the results?

   Monks are a DPS class and should be outputting equal or better than a
mage's DPS. They aren't even close at my stage of the game.

> > FD pulling, however this has been more or less arbitrarily erased from the
> > game.
>
> I use FD in raids, elemental groups and ldons.. which part was it erased
> from?

   My game. My usual group isn't ready for hardons, and the "normal"
setting, well, I can pull 4-5 and it's the only time that adventure gets
vaguely exciting. Our other places of grouping atm are basically tactics,
where pretty much the same rule applies - 2-3 is fine (We have no crowd
control), more than that is overdoing it. Oh and we still hit veksar every
now and then. I can tank 2-3 veksar mobs myself, and i can't recall a pull
of more than that there. I don't quite have elemental access.

   On the plus side we're going to try a hardon with me FD pulling soon.
I'm expecting to run out of time for the first 2-3 tries, but I hope after a
few attempts it becomes viable.

> > Monks cannot solo.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> I don't believe that 1 single bit

   I think this might be a difference of viewpoint thing, and also come
down to what you mean when you say tank.

   Do you tank stuff you'd *normally* have a plate class tank in your
group? Or do you just tank when the pressure's off, doing stuff that's
pretty easy? Can you tank hard ldons?

> A friend just recently servermoved to apply to my guild.. hes not PoTime
> geared or anything of the sort. 6k hp unbuffed, BoT weapon.. so hes closer
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> FD is a good enough get out of jail card for that.. so where exactly has an
> SK's soloability been removed?

   Lot's of places I *can* solo if I'm willing to either Kite mobs that
give good experience, and thusly sacrifice about 75% of my DPS, OR I can
have 100% of my DPS and kill babies that barely give any experience, or fear
kite same. Fear arbitrarily being resisted from early-mid 50's mobs onwards
has completely trashed my soloing.

   How your SK buddy gets viable experience out of it is guesswork to me.
Does he kite, or does he have some insanely cool vampiric thing going?

> > Paladins: Only slightly less forgotten that shadowknights, these hybrid
> > tanks enjoy the single worst DPS in the game, save for clerics and mebee
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> I think bards come in considerably below paladins for DPS...

   Would that be the swarm kiting bard, the one grouping with a charmed
pet, or the one who's twisting mana and melee dots that add 50% to the
group's DPS?

   Still, I can agree with your statement. A bard trying to do DPS directly
might be outdone by a pally. I've never tried to compare it.

> > class's hybrid clericness is *Still* far from realised in-game; their
> heals
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Lol. A paladin who thinks and believes that is somebody who will never be
> better than abysmal at his class.

   A lot of paladins who are damned brilliant at playing their class are
saying it. One in particular I group with most days is skilled enough to
pull/tank on a hard LDoN without a single piece of either VT or elemental
gear - with a shammy healing. I suppose that might not be the greatest feat
out there, but it DOES say something about his ability, I believe.

> > Manaburn may's well be deleted, as can porting and even evacs - by the
> time you've done casting it, the
> > Death-Touch-Quadding mobs have eaten your friends. And you.
>
> Exodus is pretty much an instant cas evac spell.. their port spells are
> always desirable. Ae Tl more so, and Natimbi port even more so.

   their port spells are less than half as desirable as they were when most
current 65 wizzies started their class. I don't think I've heard a wizzie
say much positive about porting in a while.

> > Necro: Another great soloer - now reduced to mana-factory status in
> groups.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> descriptions you are posting.. really makes me boggle and wonder about the
> sort of people you are grouping and playing with

   Yeah, it's far higher than average - I did list them in the top half, I
don't think necros are currently getting hammered as such, but they ARE
being eclipsed by classes that are easier to play AND have more utility.

> > Ok so there you gottit. Maybe tomorrow I'll stop whining and post some
> > positive suggestions :)
>
> If you can never look to the GOOD things your class can do.. you will NEVER
> be happy or satisfied..

   I can see the good, and regularly do. But if I posted 4 pages on what I
think is good about my class, nobody would READ it, much less reply. Or
would they? useful exercise?

Thanks for the post martin.

cheers,
James

> -m
-martin - 28 Apr 2004 13:33 GMT
>     Nice to see another PoV - also good to hear from you again Martin...

Likewise :)

>     My guild has one SK, and one monk - but probably more than half it's
> current members joined in the last 12 months, so I would guess it's far more
> susceptable to trends than older, more established guilds where folks have
> had good gear for years.

I think thats probably a good reasoning for some of it.. sortof a
"traditional" guild, where monks exist, and do the pulling by default :)

> > > I also regularly out-dps this monk.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>     For logs, I've got:

Assuming haste, brain cells etc were all on a par.. :)
Thats pretty sad.

I know at the lower game equal weapons may not be as readily available (e.g
the best droppable weapon for each class/type doesn't necesarily balance
out).. wheras in a higher raiding guild, its pretty much the norm that all
classes have (or are realistically waiting on) their dream weapons.  These
weapons do seem more balanced against each other.. which I guess is obvious,
seens as they are both number "1".. wheras the best droppables would be
numbers 5 and 15 for the class!

I know that when I do Ldons with "random_people", I will always outdamage
all the melees in the group (refering to guilds clearly below me, or not
guilded.. not including similar potime people).. this includes rogues too,
by a good margin. (with less than elemental pokers).  Yes, im fully aware
that the only reason I outdamage some of them is because my weapons, attack,
mods etc are far superioir... but the point is, things like this can create
"blips" at lower levels too, and far easier/more common

> bits of that log, not nuking as much as usual), and we had a 63 Epic
> berserker with almost no AA's (I think), who easily kept pace with us..

We have a 65 beserker, mostly in "noob" gear, but with a plane of time
weapon (I haven't done any zerker research, but the weapon is the best 2hand
knight weapon in the game atm).. so i figure his DPS will be pretty close to
his maximum potential.  I did an ikkinz trial with him recently (a
quick/small expedition, with a named mob that everybody knows must be burned
down asap.. so parsing is a decent indication here)

When i get a bit of time (busy busy this week!) I will try and dig the
logfile out.. (I *think* I parsed the fight)

> Now, do you actually want me to send these logs somewhere? Or were you
just
> interested in the results?

Results :)

>     Monks are a DPS class and should be outputting equal or better than a
> mage's DPS. They aren't even close at my stage of the game.

Well.. should they?
Both are offensive classes, but 1 is pure melee and 1 is a caster... and
thats a whole new can of worms for balance issues..

I know a mage can reach my DPS without attaining my level of gear.. I still
group with melees over casters, though!  Its too easy to afk and harder to
detect as a caster than a melee !

> > I use FD in raids, elemental groups and ldons.. which part was it erased
> > from?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> where pretty much the same rule applies - 2-3 is fine (We have no crowd
> control), more than that is overdoing it

But is it really better to deal with so many at once? I dunno.. i mean maybe
for your group makeup it is.
I know that when I exp in lower tiers, PoV or Tactics, whilst I can handle a
3 mob pull/train without major risk of death.. i just don't find it
efficient to do so.  In ldons its a bit different.. but the focus isnt on
efficiency there (for a 4 hour exp grind etc).. so wasting extra mana is a
welcome tradeoff for faster adventure points.

>     On the plus side we're going to try a hardon with me FD pulling soon.
> I'm expecting to run out of time for the first 2-3 tries, but I hope after a
> few attempts it becomes viable.

Start with a MM or Ruj mission.  These are pretty spaced out (compared to
some 6-7 mob rooms in other missions on regular occurance..)

>     Do you tank stuff you'd *normally* have a plate class tank in your
> group? Or do you just tank when the pressure's off, doing stuff that's
> pretty easy? Can you tank hard ldons?

Well.. I don't "normally" have a plate class in my group. I don't do the LFG
thing anymore, and the core of my group is always monk/shaman/cleric.  I
have a r/l & best online friends channel, whom I will group with (and often
do).. but if nobody is free, well its just the 2(3) of us.  Some of it *is*
tough as sh.t for me to tank, or tough for us to duo.. so yeah, Id say its
stuff that "normal" people would use a plate class for.  A lot of it isnt
very efficient for me to tank, but its the norm and my cleric will always
keep me up versus "difficult but not impossible" mobs.  And whilst im pretty
anal about group efficiency.. I guess an inefficient tank + good dps beats
twiddling my thumbs and waiting for a tank.

Yes I have tanked hard LDons. I've tanked about 10 I guess (out of 20 or so
hard ldons that ive attended).. Monk/Cleric/Shaman struggles a bit for DPS
though in ldon hards (I also dont find hard ldons fun).  Its not a regular
occurance though - I tank in places where the 3 of us can work fine. If some
friends come to join me, then fine. If not, its cool.. the 2(3) of us will
just keep plugging away.  Hard ldons are places id want to delay and get
some proper dps for before i begin.. and if im doing that, I may as well
delay and get a proper tank too.  So i just don't!

>     Lot's of places I *can* solo if I'm willing to either Kite mobs that
> give good experience, and thusly sacrifice about 75% of my DPS, OR I can
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>     How your SK buddy gets viable experience out of it is guesswork to me.
> Does he kite, or does he have some insanely cool vampiric thing going?

Ya he agro kites.  I don't know if the exp is particularly fantastic, but it
sure beats my inability to solo sh.t in god :) He also got this little
trinket on his second day on the server (he only got the flag a day or so
before moving)
Glowing Bone Ring
MAGIC ITEM  LORE ITEM  NO DROP
AC: 11 STR: +20  DEX: +15  STA: +10  WIS: +15   INT: +15  HP: +140  MANA:
+120  ENDUR: +120
SV FIRE: +15  SV COLD: +15  SV MAGIC: +15  SV POISON: +15
Attack: +25
Regeneration: +8
Required level of 65.
Focus Effect: Anger of E`ci
Class: ALL
Race: ALL

From a non-summoning, non-named mob.. :)

>     Would that be the swarm kiting bard, the one grouping with a charmed
> pet, or the one who's twisting mana and melee dots that add 50% to the
> group's DPS?
>
>     Still, I can agree with your statement. A bard trying to do DPS directly
> might be outdone by a pally. I've never tried to compare it.

Bard melee is very low.. average of maybe 100 dps in the highend (dps
classes are doing upwards of 300 dps at this stage).. of course they can add
like 10% dps to everybody else in the group

>     A lot of paladins who are damned brilliant at playing their class are
> saying it. One in particular I group with most days is skilled enough to
> pull/tank on a hard LDoN without a single piece of either VT or elemental
> gear - with a shammy healing. I suppose that might not be the greatest feat
> out there, but it DOES say something about his ability, I believe.

I don't think hes pulling, unless you have an equally skilled mezzer in the
group too :) But I still stand by my comment, paladin heals are a lot more
than insignificant "mana savers".. heck, often they are raid savers :)  But
of course it depends where you play.. if you are dealing with big nasty
AE's, you will see how invaluable they are.

>     their port spells are less than half as desirable as they were when most
> current 65 wizzies started their class. I don't think I've heard a wizzie
> say much positive about porting in a while.

Well PoK book was going to "ruin" their business, right?  the same class who
friggin whined and whined about always being begged to port, before there
were any alternatives.

It may not be the only way to travel now.. PoK books and selos dino are a
useful alternate method.. but nothing beats the speed and ease of porting
still.

>     I can see the good, and regularly do. But if I posted 4 pages on what I
> think is good about my class, nobody would READ it, much less reply. Or
> would they? useful exercise?

Yes. But only to prove you wrong :)

-m
Hippie Ramone - 28 Apr 2004 17:26 GMT
: Start with a MM or Ruj mission.  These are pretty spaced out (compared to
: some 6-7 mob rooms in other missions on regular occurance..)

This is good advice on your 1st hard ldon, however! If you get the Ruj
map Hall of War or somesuch.  Stop. Leave. Get a new one.  It's a really
horrible thing to break  as you have a short distance from the ZI to
a crossroad with around 8 or so statics and a couple of roamers.  I'd
rather do *any* Hard LDON Guk than that map.

K
Frank E - 28 Apr 2004 20:39 GMT
>>     On the plus side we're going to try a hardon with me FD pulling soon.
>> I'm expecting to run out of time for the first 2-3 tries, but I hope after
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Start with a MM or Ruj mission.  These are pretty spaced out (compared to
>some 6-7 mob rooms in other missions on regular occurance..)

The bards I know both prefer pulling Ruj to any of the other themes
(on hard) but from what I've seen, the monks and SKs got owned pretty
hard pulling there. It's an admittedly small sample size (just now
getting started doing hard w/o a bard) but Mir seems to be the easiest
for them to pull. Very few casters and decent mob spacings even in the
big rooms. Also, I don't think anything enrages in Mir which makes mob
placement for pets less critical.

It might have just been the luck-of-the-draw so far. I'd be interested
in how other non-raiders (that can't handle a 3 or 4 pull on hard)
view the difficulty.

Rgds, Frank
Ray Rocker - 28 Apr 2004 18:07 GMT
>>>     On the plus side we're going to try a hardon with me FD pulling soon.
>>> I'm expecting to run out of time for the first 2-3 tries, but I hope after
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>in how other non-raiders (that can't handle a 3 or 4 pull on hard)
>view the difficulty.

Yes, the pullers I know seem to prefer Ruj also. MMC doesn't seem too
bad either. I've had good luck in Guk hards (won first six I think
before failing one) but a lot of people really don't like Guk hard.
I don't think I've ever tried a Mir hard.

The really nasty one in my experience is Tak. My record is pretty
dismal there. Had one recently where the bard died four times trying
to pull a room with eight mobs, before we gave up and headed out.
Felt bad for the guy because he claimed to have never failed a
Tak mission before then.

--
Ray Rocker
rocker@datasync.com
Jekke, Just Jekke - 28 Apr 2004 18:08 GMT
>>>     On the plus side we're going to try a hardon with me FD pulling soon.
>>> I'm expecting to run out of time for the first 2-3 tries, but I hope after
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>big rooms. Also, I don't think anything enrages in Mir which makes mob
>placement for pets less critical.

Each theme seems to have a few rooms that, when combined, account for
about 3/4 of all the LDoN deaths I've seen. Miragul's has one of the
worst, which is less-than-affectionately known as the "flying monkey
room of death."

Signature

--Jekke
 =====================
 Playing on Torvonilous
 Mipmip Bromeliad (Froglok Cleric, 63)
 http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=850034
 Venerable Sheava Ebonrezzor (Dark Elf Cleric, 65) *STOLEN*
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Jennaii - 27 Apr 2004 02:43 GMT
>Lastly: following is a list of classes and my thoughts, in many cases
>ill-informed (those of you who play those classes please step forward and
>swipe away :).

I think you are wrong on all counts.  The key to being *wanted* in groups is
knowing how to play your class.  I've played with crappy beasties, paladins,
rangers, rogues, clerics, etc.  They didn't know how to play their characters,
they were lazy, they were AFK, they were ineffective, loud, overbearing, self
centered, I often wonder: powerleveled or ebayed, which is it?
I've also played with GREAT monks, paladins, rogues, druids, rangers etc.  They
knew how to adapt their playing style to fit the group.  They were always
attentive and at their post ready for action.  They make suggestions not
demands.  
If you are ill informed of how to play your character you are going to suck.
If you watch, learn, read up, take advise, and contribute effectively you'll be
great at your class.
Healea Sternstar -  60 cleric
Skila Windrunner - 57 ranger
Jennaii - 45 druid
Deatha - 32 necromancer
Linni - 31 shaman
Stormfoot - 31 warrior
Deatha - 26 necro
Tholuxe Paells
Hamsterface - 27 Apr 2004 10:48 GMT
> I think you are wrong on all counts.  The key to being *wanted* in groups is
> knowing how to play your class.

I agree with you for the most part but that point is wrong.  It only
applies if you are grouping with people that you know.  If you are
just a name on a LFG list then being good doesn't help.... all that
helps is the perceived usefulness of your class.

> I've played with crappy beasties, paladins,
> rangers, rogues, clerics, etc.  They didn't know how to play their characters,
> they were lazy, they were AFK, they were ineffective, loud, overbearing, self
> centered, I often wonder: powerleveled or ebayed, which is it?

Have been fairly lucky with groups so far.  Always fine the worst
players to be the ones who start "I have a 65th level xxxx main so I
know what I am talking about".  Often not the case as they can't play
their alt nearly as well as they claim to play there main and they
also try to harrangue(sp?) the guy in the party who is playing the
class of their main.  People have different play styles - just because
a level 30, 50, 60th level player doesn't play the way you do does not
necessarily mean they are wrong.

> I've also played with GREAT monks, paladins, rogues, druids, rangers etc.
> They knew how to adapt their playing style to fit the group.  They were always
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> If you watch, learn, read up, take advise, and contribute effectively you'll
> be great at your class.

/agree

> Healea Sternstar -  60 cleric
> Skila Windrunner - 57 ranger
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Deatha - 26 necro
> Tholuxe Paells

61 mnk, 52 nec, 47 clr, 47 drd, 34 enc, 34 pal, 14 war ... got way too
many characters 8(
Palindrome - 27 Apr 2004 11:30 GMT
>> I think you are wrong on all counts.  The key to being *wanted* in groups is
>> knowing how to play your class.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>just a name on a LFG list then being good doesn't help.... all that
>helps is the perceived usefulness of your class.
Yes, true. LFG does not indicate how good you are...  If the
perception of a class (any class) is that they are not that good, a
*good* player is probably going to be very lucky just to get an
invite.  If they recruit a bad player, the perception of the class
drops again.  Give a dog a bad name...

Mind you, friends in-game and Guildies would be a useful way to get a
Monk (or whatever) in group, naturally...  It's just that in my guild
the majority of players are using characters at lvl 45+, and if it
*is* lower, it's almost always just a bazaar mule.  (This is causing a
bit of flak between players who only have low level characters and the
higher level ones who rarely even chat in guild to them, but that's
another topic)

Palindrome
Jennaii - 27 Apr 2004 11:36 GMT
>If you are
>just a name on a LFG list then being good doesn't help.... all that
>helps is the perceived usefulness of your class.

Yes and no.  There's a cleric on TP that I will NOT group with, I'd rather take
a druid or a shaman for healer over her.   And several necros and rangers that
I'll take *any* time because they are such good team players.  But I know what
you are saying.  

>People have different play styles - just because
>a level 30, 50, 60th level player doesn't play the way you do does not
>necessarily mean they are wrong.

True.  *But*.  I've played with rangers who really thought their job in a group
was to shoot arrows.  Clerics who did nothing but heal and sat around with full
mana in a dungeon full of undead.  Pet classes who send their pets into battle
and spent the rest of the time sitting on their butts doing nothing.  Warriors
who clearly never learned taunt.  They may not be playing *wrong*, but I'm sure
not going to be eager to play with any of them again.
I *prefer* to play with people who are truly having a good time being their
class.  Not the ones who put in the /lfg description: "experience grind".  

Healea Sternstar -  60 cleric
Skila Windrunner - 57 ranger
Jennaii - 45 druid
Deatha - 32 necromancer
Linni - 31 shaman
Stormfoot - 31 warrior
Deatha - 26 necro
Tholuxe Paells
Tyas_MT - 27 Apr 2004 17:00 GMT
> >Lastly: following is a list of classes and my thoughts, in many cases
<snip>
> rangers, rogues, clerics, etc.  They didn't know how to play their characters,
> they were lazy, they were AFK, they were ineffective, loud, overbearing, self
> centered, I often wonder: powerleveled or ebayed, which is it?
Just because I was Lazy, loud, overbearing and self-centered doesn't mean I
was a bad enchanter.

Actually, the last 3 are a requirement for good enchanters, according to the
union pamphlet.
^_-
Remington Stone - 27 Apr 2004 21:40 GMT
Tyas_MT said:
}"Jennaii" <jennaii@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
}> >Lastly: following is a list of classes and my thoughts, in many cases
}> rangers, rogues, clerics, etc.  They didn't know how to play their
}> characters, they were lazy, they were AFK, they were ineffective,
}> loud, overbearing, self centered, I often wonder: powerleveled or
}> ebayed, which is it?
}Just because I was Lazy, loud, overbearing and self-centered doesn't mean I
}was a bad enchanter.
}Actually, the last 3 are a requirement for good enchanters, according to the
}union pamphlet.

Heh, the union pamphlet lies!  There's no way you can be a lazy chanter
(in a group) and be even marginally effective.  On a raid (where mana
draining doesn't play a role), sure.  Buff everyone, then maybe nuke if
you feel like it, unless you're the only enchanter, then you'll have to
tash too, and cripple if the shammies are being lazy.

Loud and overbearing?  Yes, those are required, usually, in pickup groups.  
Usually after the eleventy-seventh mezz has been broken.

Self-centered is not allowed.  Enchanters are one of the top classes for
being put in the position of having to take one for the team.  If you're
too self-centered for that... please.  This is not the class you are
looking for.  Move along.

[65 Coercer] Zinphandel Chianti <Prism> (Gnome) Ayonae Ro
Tyas_MT - 27 Apr 2004 23:37 GMT
> Tyas_MT said:
> }"Jennaii" <jennaii@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> you feel like it, unless you're the only enchanter, then you'll have to
> tash too, and cripple if the shammies are being lazy.
Lazy is 1, then there are 3 more. Therefore the  pamphlet desn't include
lazy...
> Loud and overbearing?  Yes, those are required, usually, in pickup groups.
> Usually after the eleventy-seventh mezz has been broken.
Ohhh yeah.
> Self-centered is not allowed.  Enchanters are one of the top classes for
> being put in the position of having to take one for the team.  If you're
> too self-centered for that... please.  This is not the class you are
> looking for.  Move along.
But, the world revolves around me!!!

Seriously, I (was) a level 55 enchanter... and while I am lazy, lazy groups
were not worth the effort...

If my mana bar wasn't going down, I was bored.

Well I was far from Uber, not even Uber from afar...

> [65 Coercer] Zinphandel Chianti <Prism> (Gnome) Ayonae Ro
Remington Stone - 28 Apr 2004 00:14 GMT
Tyas_MT said:
}"Remington Stone" <ez064842@vici.ucdavis.edu> wrote in message
}> Tyas_MT said:
}> }"Jennaii" <jennaii@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
}> }> >Lastly: following is a list of classes and my thoughts, in many cases
}> }> rangers, rogues, clerics, etc.  They didn't know how to play their
}> }> characters, they were lazy, they were AFK, they were ineffective,
}> }> loud, overbearing, self centered, I often wonder: powerleveled or
}> }> ebayed, which is it?
}> }Just because I was Lazy, loud, overbearing and self-centered doesn't mean
}> }I was a bad enchanter.
}> }Actually, the last 3 are a requirement for good enchanters, according to
}> }the union pamphlet.
}> Heh, the union pamphlet lies!  There's no way you can be a lazy chanter
}> (in a group) and be even marginally effective.  On a raid (where mana
}> draining doesn't play a role), sure.  Buff everyone, then maybe nuke if
}> you feel like it, unless you're the only enchanter, then you'll have to
}> tash too, and cripple if the shammies are being lazy.
}Lazy is 1, then there are 3 more. Therefore the  pamphlet desn't include
}lazy...

Ahh!  Good thing 'ability to count to 3' wasn't a requirement. :)

[65 Coercer] Zinphandel Chianti <Prism> (Gnome) Ayonae Ro
Graeme Faelban - 28 Apr 2004 14:43 GMT
You should try to get into the habit of moving the "-- " to the bottom of
the post, that signifies the start of the signature.  It makes newsreaders
that automatically snip signatures in replies snip your entire post.

Signature

On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Elder Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Prophet of 65 seasons
Tainniel Fleabane, Halfling Warrior of 32 seasons
Giluven, Wood Elf Druid of 26 seasons
Graeniel, High Elf Enchanter of 25 seasons

Tyas_MT - 28 Apr 2004 16:35 GMT
> "Tyas_MT" <tyas_mt@hotplonkmail.com> wrote in
>
> You should try to get into the habit of moving the "-- " to the bottom of
> the post, that signifies the start of the signature.  It makes newsreaders
> that automatically snip signatures in replies snip your entire post.

hmmm I've never used a newsreader that fancy... kay.

stupid top post encouraging OE...
Graeme Faelban - 28 Apr 2004 17:05 GMT
>> "Tyas_MT" <tyas_mt@hotplonkmail.com> wrote in
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> stupid top post encouraging OE...

Well, you could switch to a more friendly newsreader...

Signature

On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Elder Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Prophet of 65 seasons
Tainniel Fleabane, Halfling Warrior of 32 seasons
Giluven, Wood Elf Druid of 26 seasons
Graeniel, High Elf Enchanter of 25 seasons

Tyas_MT - 29 Apr 2004 16:13 GMT
> Well, you could switch to a more friendly newsreader...
I'm at work.. we have OE and outlook, we can't have other software installed
without 'good cause'.

While I am the one that enforces that, I'm just honest enough not to cheat.
Graeme Faelban - 30 Apr 2004 14:53 GMT
>> Well, you could switch to a more friendly newsreader...
> I'm at work.. we have OE and outlook, we can't have other software
> installed without 'good cause'.
>
> While I am the one that enforces that, I'm just honest enough not to
> cheat.

Ah well, sorry to hear that.

Signature

On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Elder Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Prophet of 65 seasons
Tainniel Fleabane, Halfling Warrior of 32 seasons
Giluven, Wood Elf Druid of 26 seasons
Graeniel, High Elf Enchanter of 25 seasons

Sean Kennedy - 30 Apr 2004 23:43 GMT
>>> Well, you could switch to a more friendly newsreader...
>> I'm at work.. we have OE and outlook, we can't have other software
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Ah well, sorry to hear that.

Oh, heck.  I can't remember the name of the program I had
running on my Linux box .......... it did remote desktop
over HTTP.  Anywhere you had web access you could access your
linux  box.  At any rate, I used it so I could run my newsreader
and mail software on my home box and not leave any footprints
on the box I used to access it.
Ringo - 27 Apr 2004 22:36 GMT
>>Lastly: following is a list of classes and my thoughts, in many cases
>>ill-informed (those of you who play those classes please step forward and
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>Deatha - 26 necro
>Tholuxe Paells

After some thought on the issue I really think the main problem with
EQ (and many of the older games) is that the AI engine is pathetic.
Course this is due to when it was written but after playing a couple
of other games I can say that a stronger AI allows a much better
balance of player classes. Wizzie type mobs that hit like war and nuke
like a moron are not needed because the mob is acting according to its
class and doing it fairly well. Also mobs tend to seem to work
together in a much more realistic fashion. This takes the burden off
the melee classes and puts more on the caster classes who may not have
the hitpoints to survive a large nuke. Mobs focus on healers and
nukers quickly if the melee isnt doing a good job and may do it
anyway. Smarter mobs make for better play and EQ mobs are dumb as
rocks for the most part. Just something to consider, seriously hope
future releases take this to heart. Till then dont think theres any
way to have a fair balance between player classes.
Hamsterface - 28 Apr 2004 10:20 GMT
> After some thought on the issue I really think the main problem with
> EQ (and many of the older games) is that the AI engine is pathetic.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> future releases take this to heart. Till then dont think theres any
> way to have a fair balance between player classes.

Yes the AI is old fashioned.  You would expect caster mobs to hang
back rather than charging into melee to get slaughtered.

However, if the AI was better it would be a slaughter .. can you
imagine the mob  casters seeing a wizard standing there and chain
nuking him?  Wouldn't be many people playing casters after a few weeks
of that !

What about the mobs that see your cleric and think "breakfast" before
he even starts healing?

They'd have to redesign the whole balance of the game (taunt / aggro
etc) to make that work.
Ringo - 28 Apr 2004 11:36 GMT
>> After some thought on the issue I really think the main problem with
>> EQ (and many of the older games) is that the AI engine is pathetic.
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>They'd have to redesign the whole balance of the game (taunt / aggro
>etc) to make that work.

Well remember that they currently do a few things now to "make up" for
the lack of AI. Mob hitpoints are way out of proportion to player hit
points, mobs are made to hit for much more than a player and are given
some really outlandish abilites. Ask any chanter that solos how good a
tank a mob makes. As you level up these differences increase to the
point that things get unworkable. Now basicaly the whole class balance
issue is made unfixable by this method. My point is older games like
EQ are unfixable and we should look to the newer games.
James Hicks - 28 Apr 2004 11:38 GMT
> >Lastly: following is a list of classes and my thoughts, in many cases
> >ill-informed (those of you who play those classes please step forward and
> >swipe away :).
>
> I think you are wrong on all counts.  The key to being *wanted* in groups is
> knowing how to play your class.

   The second time, yes.

   The first time anyone has the option of grouping with you, they usually
haven't the faintest clue how good YOU are, and will go on things like
level, guild, and class - which is where class perceptions/balance come in.

> I've played with crappy beasties, paladins,
> rangers, rogues, clerics, etc.  They didn't know how to play their characters,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> If you watch, learn, read up, take advise, and contribute effectively you'll be
> great at your class.

   Yeah, and after 18 months, 65 levels, 100AA's, tons of carefully
selected and earned gear, I'm a pretty good shadowknight.

   Unfortunately, a pretty good shadowknight comes out poorly next to
favorably unbalanced classes who may be played relatively badly.

   Yes if someone's a *total* idiot it doesn't matter what class they
play - they will suck. But I haven't seen many total idiots about since I
hit the 60's. Usually even if someone's a dickhead they'll have *some*
apparent skill.

> Healea Sternstar -  60 cleric
> Skila Windrunner - 57 ranger
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Deatha - 26 necro
> Tholuxe Paells
Ringo - 27 Apr 2004 14:46 GMT
Since you are about to be picked apart by the "every thing is rosey"
crowd that will cut you valid points, Heres a bit of fairness.

>Let me begin by saying: The last thing I want from Sony is another nerf to
>any class. I benefit from the uberness of the uber.

Amen

>Secondly: What in god's name possesed them to introduce another dps melee?
>Can anyone think of even a BAD reason to do so? Monks and rogues are almost
>dead as a class, it is CLEAR they're having real problems thinking of stuff
>for pure melee's to do, WHY compound it by adding yet another class to this
>fallen category?

Money. Milking the last drop from the game.

>Thirdly: I am a 65/101 shadowknight who caps out at 7,474hp. I consider
>myself fairly average for a 65 SK on my server. I state my class and status
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>are next to dead, and their DPS is behind every single class that considers
>itself DPS, and in many cases behind hybrids as well.

The reason I left the game. Very true, logs are availible at Monkly
Biz for the uneducated.

>Rogue: I haven't logged a rogue recently. Last time I did, I wasn't that
>impressed, but they certainly left monks for dead. I can't *Really* comment
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>what is a 'shadowknight'". In skelly form I am invariably mistaken for a
>necro by any stranger (even in my own guild) who groups with me.

SK was my last attempt to stay with EQ. But I could see the way things
were going in LDoN and just gave up. Seems now I was right to do so.

>Paladins: Only slightly less forgotten that shadowknights, these hybrid
>tanks enjoy the single worst DPS in the game, save for clerics and mebee
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>the other 50% being so uber they're kinda balanced now - if a little one
>dimensional.

Oh man how true.

>Druid: The great root-rotting soloist is a mediocre nobody in the world of
>30-second fights and 80% group bonuses. His abrupt re-re-re-training as a
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>these guys are off their high horse and up sh.t creek with the rest of us,
>but they sure have a paddle.

Necro DPS is a bit better than this. Would place them just below Mage
for favorite child class.

>Zerker: wtf?

Money lol

>Shaman: These guys aren't currently stuffed, but they're definitely on the
>way back down. They can solo, they're *lusted* after for groups, they're
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>out on the streets begging for food... And hats off to you, you ate sh.t for
>60 levels getting there!

Another Amen

>Cleric: We're in the top rungs now. Any group that doesn't already have a
>cleric will take a cleric. A lot of groups who do already have a cleric will
>take a cleric. A raiding guild with 97 clerics will take another cleric.
>They can't solo for sh.t, mostly because of all the tells they get, begging
>them to join a group or guild. Who could be alone with all that lust raining
>down on them?

But god how boring it was and frustrating too. Very true and dead on.

>Enchanter: A slight fall from total king of the pops has not mitigated this
>guy's top-notch solo, group and raid desireability. Also a wonderfully fun
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>3 levels ago. Plus your very own stacks-with-C mana regeneratorernator.
>These guys have never worked an honest day in their life :o)

Most favored child in the melee line no doubt.

>Mage: Highest DPS class in the game - but NOT a pure DPS class (how's that
>for unbalanced?). I group regularly with a mage who has 300AA's.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>pet, or do some CC, or summon something jaw-dropping and vital. Or CoTH, or
>pull, or DS, or modrod, or...

Sickening isnt it....

>Bard:  Still absolutely crapping on everyone else, but remaining rare due to
>the fact that people who play bards hands come off and jitter around on the
>floor in their mid 60's. Or earlier.

Dead on. Even with a Nostro and macros carpal tunnel is a very real
danger. Sony could be sued over this intentional design flaw  lol

>Ok so there you gottit. Maybe tomorrow I'll stop whining and post some
>positive suggestions :)
>
>Cheers,
>James

James just quit. Seriously just walk away and find a new addiction.
Its fun and theres a lot to pick from today.
Scott - 27 Apr 2004 18:04 GMT
> Since you are about to be picked apart by the "every thing is rosey"
> crowd that will cut you valid points, Heres a bit of fairness.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> >
> Money. Milking the last drop from the game.

I actually have fun playing my rogue and zerker.
Hamsterface - 28 Apr 2004 10:14 GMT
> >Secondly: What in god's name possesed them to introduce another dps melee?
> >Can anyone think of even a BAD reason to do so? Monks and rogues are almost
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> >
> Money. Milking the last drop from the game.

Yup, must be .. certainly wasn't need and wasn't wanted by a lot of
the people whose classes were going to get squeezed (monks and rangers
spring to mind).

> >Necro: Another great soloer - now reduced to mana-factory status in groups.
> >Lusted after still for slightly-better-than-useless-DPS, quite good at
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Necro DPS is a bit better than this. Would place them just below Mage
> for favorite child class.

My highest alt is a necro ... bet thing I have seen about them that
you don't mention is that the 49+ level pets can often outdamage the
tanks in the group (unless they are twinked to the eyeballs!) as well
as the role you list above.  Pre-49 bit of a waste of space in a group
but post 49 I'll give them room anytime.

Never really been impressed with necro mez though ... maybe my DE just
hasn't got the charisma to pull it off.
Michael Johnson - 29 Apr 2004 02:19 GMT
>Let me begin by saying: The last thing I want from Sony is another nerf to
>any class. I benefit from the uberness of the uber.

SoE to players.. you are all equally worthless.. hence you are all
equally balanced :>

>Secondly: What in god's name possesed them to introduce another dps melee?
>Can anyone think of even a BAD reason to do so?

Hmm.. maybe they couldn't think of a caster class that was
distinguishable enough to create.

>Monks and rogues are almost dead as a class

Weird on rogues.. i would often go rogue for damage in group.

>Rogue: I haven't logged a rogue recently. Last time I did, I wasn't that
>impressed, but they certainly left monks for dead. I can't *Really* comment
>here, but for the sake of completeness, I *imagine* these guys are barely
>behind of monks in the "forgotten class" stakes.

They have a warm place in my heart.. and I always had them along.. the
more the better. Their sustained dps, especially at the high end,
torches every other class i've used for damage. I've gone as many as 3
elementally equipped rogues in group. The mobs were practically
throwing themselves down before we could get to them due to the hurt.
The nice part about rogues as opposed to wizards/mages is that you
know they won't run low on mana over time.

>Shadowknights: Like monks, we used to FD pull. I literally have not used FD
>to pull in *six months*. It is useless in any time-limit situation, and even
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>what is a 'shadowknight'". In skelly form I am invariably mistaken for a
>necro by any stranger (even in my own guild) who groups with me.

Well... regardless of the changes, wizards and mages still have you in
their hearts for normal group tanking... anything short of high level
GoD.

>Warriors: Much as these amiable gentle giants seem to be delighted with the
>prospect of being top-tank again in all areas (a position I in no way ever
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>isn't THAT great in a game where almost half the population are tanks of
>some sort, and 99% of groups want... one.

>And warrior soloing is never a credible option.

We can kill dark blue biles in PoD if that counts... and if you
disregard the downtime.

>Druid: The great root-rotting soloist is a mediocre nobody in the world of
>30-second fights and 80% group bonuses. His abrupt re-re-re-training as a
>healer has saved his grouping neck, and charm soloing remains a cool
>option - but he's the bottom of the top rungs.

Aye.. still a viable healer for your easy ldon's.. and i've seen
'great' druids be able to heal hards.

>Necro: Another great soloer - now reduced to mana-factory status in groups.

Maybe in your groups. Sure they've got the mana pump going.. but i
usually look at them for damage and then twitching. And in a pinch..
jfc... necro healing/BL regen could break me even on HP. The number of
roles they can have in a LDoN is just staggering.. and the more necros
the better imo. For all the devastation LDoN did monks for grouping..
it did the flip side for necros and got them a lot of groups. A LOT.

>Lusted after still for slightly-better-than-useless-DPS

A high level necro has very good dps, even while twitching. And if
they crit dot Horror they can do 1K/tick.. and have the best mana
regen in the game so that they can almost never not have mana.

>Shaman: These guys aren't currently stuffed, but they're definitely on the
>way back down. They can solo, they're *lusted* after for groups,

Not my groups. Removing of course GoD from the equation, I would
*ALWAYS* go high level BL over high level shaman if I could get one.
Main reason.. dps and the fact that both the BL pet and the BL could
be used as an add tank in a pinch. Its basically like adding 2 tanks.
Shaman are good when you need a big mob slowed fast... other than
that?

>they're critical on raids... but they work their reeking a.ses off to get (and stay)
>there, and have very little to look forward to right now.

Group wise they've been in the hurt locker from BL's for a while now.

>Beastlord: Any group, guild, or park bench that says 'no' to a beastlord
>should be shot, hung, drawn, quartered and made to watch reruns of the brady
>bunch. A monk with some nukes and a necro-level pet - and shammy spells from
>3 levels ago. Plus your very own stacks-with-C mana regeneratorernator.
>These guys have never worked an honest day in their life :o)

Pretty much :>. And if you have one.. why get a shaman? :>

Nice breakdown.

-MJ
 
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