Game Forum / Role Playing Games / EverQuest / April 2004
class balance - yes yes yawnorama, but not for me :)
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James Hicks - 26 Apr 2004 14:52 GMT Let me begin by saying: The last thing I want from Sony is another nerf to any class. I benefit from the uberness of the uber.
Secondly: What in god's name possesed them to introduce another dps melee? Can anyone think of even a BAD reason to do so? Monks and rogues are almost dead as a class, it is CLEAR they're having real problems thinking of stuff for pure melee's to do, WHY compound it by adding yet another class to this fallen category?
Thirdly: I am a 65/101 shadowknight who caps out at 7,474hp. I consider myself fairly average for a 65 SK on my server. I state my class and status to clarify my viewpoint more than anything. This is important to note as my comments will be WAY off base for both (Eg) level 30 characters, and full-time raiding folk who are now Elemental, Time, or GoDing it up. I will of course be delighted to hear from other viewpoints.
Lastly: following is a list of classes and my thoughts, in many cases ill-informed (those of you who play those classes please step forward and swipe away :).
Monk: A guildie of mine is a monk. Aside from him, I rarely see monks at all anymore. When monk tanking was nerfed, at first I felt vindicated - and then I realised they weren't just put behind plate classes - they were put back so far they cannot tank at all. I also regularly out-dps this monk. We have a comparable number of AA's. Monks, like SK's *used* to have the benefit of FD pulling, however this has been more or less arbitrarily erased from the game. Monks cannot solo. Monks have poor applicability to groups, and monks are no longer terribly useful on raids. Their tanking and pulling abilities are next to dead, and their DPS is behind every single class that considers itself DPS, and in many cases behind hybrids as well.
Rogue: I haven't logged a rogue recently. Last time I did, I wasn't that impressed, but they certainly left monks for dead. I can't *Really* comment here, but for the sake of completeness, I *imagine* these guys are barely behind of monks in the "forgotten class" stakes.
Shadowknights: Like monks, we used to FD pull. I literally have not used FD to pull in *six months*. It is useless in any time-limit situation, and even where my guild raids, we're either pulling hordes to clear them - in which case a shammy with AOE slow pulls for us - or taking on a single mob. My tanking is quite rightly below that of a warrior, however I no longer am really ahead of a similarly geared warrior in agro generation. A warrior can generate agro more or less well enough for any group not to consider an SK over a warrior. Further, I have been arbitrarily f.cked in tanking VS paladins, who now have an extra spell that stacks with V+Brells, giving a pally with identical gear several hundred HP more than I do. As is mathematically evident, a few hundred HP is *irrelevant*, however the in-game fact is that in people's minds, a few hundred HP is enough to decide one over the other. I simply do not tank on raids except in dire emergencies. Further, paladin tanking is easier to bring up than shadowknight - stuns are more readily available than *useable* vampirism. My earlier vampiric joy at using Bond of Death has vaporised - 80/tick is now irrelevant and the spell is not replaced with a useable one. My lifetaps began being irrelevant at level 9, and could be now removed from the game as an entire spell line without any effect on the class whatsoever. I will require many more AA's to build up lifetap-procs into something I can vaguely mitigate with. My DPS, although too high in comparison to a pure melee, lags so incredibly far behind other hybrids and especially casters as to vanish into total irrelevance. As an incredibly difficult and disheartening class to level to 65, I feel shadowknights should be at least on par balancewise, to any class. I'm also at a total loss as to why my ability to Solo, never a threat to anybody, has been arbitrarily removed from the game. My hybridness with necros is *Still* not realised, as I am still paying Necro mana costs for old necro spells, without necro mana regeneration (or five seconds out of any minute to med). The interesting thing is that I can generate almost FT10 for a group, and with another spell from GoD I might get in the next 12 months I can extend that to FT20 - however I would have to spend 20 minutes with a spreadsheet, sliderule and whiteboard proving this to a prospective group. Frankly, this irrelevant-to-the-sk-theme ability has come too late to save us from total obscurity. The inevitable response to this 20 minute discourse is "ok... but what is a 'shadowknight'". In skelly form I am invariably mistaken for a necro by any stranger (even in my own guild) who groups with me.
Paladins: Only slightly less forgotten that shadowknights, these hybrid tanks enjoy the single worst DPS in the game, save for clerics and mebee druids, and except of course against undead (if you have more AA's than your local uberguild has a.sholes). Elevated slightly above shadowknights in tanking via stun-mitigation and a few extra HP, my knight brothers are still too far behind warriors to be noticed, and are only in use in my guild because we have only one warrior who turns up regularly to raids. This class's hybrid clericness is *Still* far from realised in-game; their heals are *Still* so far behind as to be near irrelevant - occasional mana savers at best.
Warriors: Much as these amiable gentle giants seem to be delighted with the prospect of being top-tank again in all areas (a position I in no way ever wish to threaten again - the cost is too f.cking awful), I still think their overall balance within the game is just barely above the totally screwed classes I have just finished w.nking on about. Or perhaps it is the mind numbing one-dimensionality of this class that gives me waves of nausea trying to stack them up against almost anything else? Still - being top-tank isn't THAT great in a game where almost half the population are tanks of some sort, and 99% of groups want... one. And warrior soloing is never a credible option. On the other-other hand, it can't be all that bad being a warrior; as the lvl-65-population of them seems to outnumber SK's and pallies combined.
Wizard: After 65 levels and 100AA's these guys can nuke noticeably better than mages (hooray). Who have beaten them to death all along with their pet, and continue to beat them at this level. Manaburn may's well be deleted, as can porting and even evacs - by the time you've done casting it, the Death-Touch-Quadding mobs have eaten your friends. And you. Another one-dimensional class now that their utility has been reduced to a quick way back to the Brotherhood camp after your LDoN adventure. Nevertheless, their ludicrous high-end DPS, especially in bursts on raids, keeps them well above the "forgotten" crowd. A case of 50% of the character being forgotten, and the other 50% being so uber they're kinda balanced now - if a little one dimensional.
Druid: The great root-rotting soloist is a mediocre nobody in the world of 30-second fights and 80% group bonuses. His abrupt re-re-re-training as a healer has saved his grouping neck, and charm soloing remains a cool option - but he's the bottom of the top rungs.
Necro: Another great soloer - now reduced to mana-factory status in groups. Lusted after still for slightly-better-than-useless-DPS, quite good at single-mob crowd control (A group which can handle one mob per member is bloody awesome) and rarely turned down by folks who don't like running OOM, these guys are off their high horse and up sh.t creek with the rest of us, but they sure have a paddle.
Zerker: wtf?
Shaman: These guys aren't currently stuffed, but they're definitely on the way back down. They can solo, they're *lusted* after for groups, they're critical on raids... but they work their reeking a.ses off to get (and stay) there, and have very little to look forward to right now.
Ranger: If you can save up 50k, or sell ALL of your gear to reach it, you can be stark naked except for your stonewood and still out-dps most classes. You can kind-of-tank exp-PoP but why bother? With so many unemployed tanks out on the streets begging for food... And hats off to you, you ate sh.t for 60 levels getting there!
Cleric: We're in the top rungs now. Any group that doesn't already have a cleric will take a cleric. A lot of groups who do already have a cleric will take a cleric. A raiding guild with 97 clerics will take another cleric. They can't solo for sh.t, mostly because of all the tells they get, begging them to join a group or guild. Who could be alone with all that lust raining down on them?
Enchanter: A slight fall from total king of the pops has not mitigated this guy's top-notch solo, group and raid desireability. Also a wonderfully fun class to play, tons of dimension, no shortage of options. A bit papertanky for me, but I still adore my little chanter alt.
Beastlord: Any group, guild, or park bench that says 'no' to a beastlord should be shot, hung, drawn, quartered and made to watch reruns of the brady bunch. A monk with some nukes and a necro-level pet - and shammy spells from 3 levels ago. Plus your very own stacks-with-C mana regeneratorernator. These guys have never worked an honest day in their life :o)
Mage: Highest DPS class in the game - but NOT a pure DPS class (how's that for unbalanced?). I group regularly with a mage who has 300AA's. Essentially, grouping with a mage means pulling fast enough to feed him a steady steam of mobs to shred. This guy's pet tanks almost as well as I do, better if you count the fact that his owner can heal him, whereas I don't have an owner. Or healing worth a damn. His pet almost eclipses my damage too. The 2nd best nuker in the game, and for argument's sake capable of soloing. NO group who has a healer and slower will turn a mage down. No guild will turn a mage down if he's in their league. The life of a mage: take a break from DPS only long enough to completely shame tanks with your pet, or do some CC, or summon something jaw-dropping and vital. Or CoTH, or pull, or DS, or modrod, or...
Bard: Still absolutely crapping on everyone else, but remaining rare due to the fact that people who play bards hands come off and jitter around on the floor in their mid 60's. Or earlier.
Ok so there you gottit. Maybe tomorrow I'll stop whining and post some positive suggestions :)
Cheers, James
-martin - 26 Apr 2004 17:00 GMT > Monk: A guildie of mine is a monk. Aside from him, I rarely see monks at all > anymore. When monk tanking was nerfed, at first I felt vindicated - Using 3 plane of time+ guilds on my server to base my response.. Each guild has an average of 4 monks.. 1.5 beastlords.. 1.5 SK's.. 4 palis.. 5 rangers.. 4 rogues
This doesnt rate terribly differently to the numbers I saw on Prexus for several years either.
> I realised they weren't just put behind plate classes - they were put back > so far they cannot tank at all. Not true
> I also regularly out-dps this monk. Which weapons do you both use?
> a comparable number of AA's. Monks, like SK's *used* to have the benefit of > FD pulling, however this has been more or less arbitrarily erased from the > game. I use FD in raids, elemental groups and ldons.. which part was it erased from?
> Monks cannot solo. Nope, not very well.
> and monks are no longer terribly useful on raids. Their tanking and pulling abilities
> are next to dead I don't believe that 1 single bit
> and their DPS is behind every single class that considers > itself DPS, and in many cases behind hybrids as well. Logs, please. At the level i play, thats not even close to being true.
> Shadowknights: Like monks, we used to FD pull. I literally have not used FD ...
> on par balancewise, to any class. I'm also at a total loss as to why my > ability to Solo, never a threat to anybody, has been arbitrarily removed > from the game. A friend just recently servermoved to apply to my guild.. hes not PoTime geared or anything of the sort. 6k hp unbuffed, BoT weapon.. so hes closer to you than me in terms of gear, flags and such. (He is an SK)
He solos in Kod'Taz and Yxtta with ease. Some mobs summon, but most don't. FD is a good enough get out of jail card for that.. so where exactly has an SK's soloability been removed?
> Paladins: Only slightly less forgotten that shadowknights, these hybrid > tanks enjoy the single worst DPS in the game, save for clerics and mebee > druids, and except of course against undead (if you have more AA's than your > local uberguild has a.sholes). I think bards come in considerably below paladins for DPS...
> class's hybrid clericness is *Still* far from realised in-game; their heals > are *Still* so far behind as to be near irrelevant - occasional mana savers > at best. Lol. A paladin who thinks and believes that is somebody who will never be better than abysmal at his class.
> Wizard: After 65 levels and 100AA's these guys can nuke noticeably better > than mages (hooray). Who have beaten them to death all along with their pet, > and continue to beat them at this level. /boggle
> Manaburn may's well be deleted, as can porting and even evacs - by the time you've done casting it, the
> Death-Touch-Quadding mobs have eaten your friends. And you. Exodus is pretty much an instant cas evac spell.. their port spells are always desirable. Ae Tl more so, and Natimbi port even more so.
> Necro: Another great soloer - now reduced to mana-factory status in groups. > Lusted after still for slightly-better-than-useless-DPS, quite good at Necro DPS is high, potentially very high indeed. You know.. these class descriptions you are posting.. really makes me boggle and wonder about the sort of people you are grouping and playing with
> Ok so there you gottit. Maybe tomorrow I'll stop whining and post some > positive suggestions :) If you can never look to the GOOD things your class can do.. you will NEVER be happy or satisfied..
-m
Graeme Faelban - 26 Apr 2004 17:26 GMT >> Monk: A guildie of mine is a monk. Aside from him, I rarely see monks >> at all anymore. When monk tanking was nerfed, at first I felt [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > This doesnt rate terribly differently to the numbers I saw on Prexus > for several years either. Just to add to this from something closer to James' level...
I am a level 65 shaman, 140ish AAs, in a guild of almost all 65s, with AAs ranging from none to 400ish, hitting places like Ssra, NToV, Terris Thule, Manaetic Behemoth, and getting lots of equipment upgrades from all of them yet.
>> I realised they weren't just put behind plate classes - they were put >> back so far they cannot tank at all. > > Not true Several of our monks still tank, sure, not as well as the warriors and knights, but, they do it in a pinch.
>> I also regularly out-dps this monk. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I use FD in raids, elemental groups and ldons.. which part was it > erased from? Same here, FD is used for pulling in many zones, and in groups, and even LDoNs (although rarely there, as speed is important).
>> Monks cannot solo. > > Nope, not very well. Agreed.
>> and monks are no longer terribly useful on raids. Their tanking and >> pulling abilities are next to dead > > I don't believe that 1 single bit Our pull team consists of 2 to 4 monks, a rogue or two for scouting, and usually one SK.
>> and their DPS is behind every single class that considers itself DPS, >> and in many cases behind hybrids as well. > > Logs, please. > At the level i play, thats not even close to being true. Would love to see them too.
>> Shadowknights: Like monks, we used to FD pull. I literally have not >> used [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > don't. FD is a good enough get out of jail card for that.. so where > exactly has an SK's soloability been removed? Several SK friends of mine, some in guild, some not, regularly solo, not quite sure what he is talking about either.
>> Paladins: Only slightly less forgotten that shadowknights, these >> hybrid tanks enjoy the single worst DPS in the game, save for clerics >> and mebee druids, and except of course against undead (if you have >> more AA's than your local uberguild has a.sholes). > > I think bards come in considerably below paladins for DPS... Yep, but still great to have one around.
>> class's hybrid clericness is *Still* far from realised in-game; their >> heals are *Still* so far behind as to be near irrelevant - occasional >> mana savers at best. > > Lol. A paladin who thinks and believes that is somebody who will never > be better than abysmal at his class. I love having a paladin in my group when I am the main healer, it means I get to nuke, dot, melee, because I don't have to do much healing.
>> Wizard: After 65 levels and 100AA's these guys can nuke noticeably >> better than mages (hooray). Who have beaten them to death all along [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Exodus is pretty much an instant cas evac spell.. their port spells > are always desirable. Ae Tl more so, and Natimbi port even more so. It'd be a real bitch getting the raid out of some places without have AE TL available.
>> Necro: Another great soloer - now reduced to mana-factory status in >> groups. Lusted after still for slightly-better-than-useless-DPS, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > class descriptions you are posting.. really makes me boggle and wonder > about the sort of people you are grouping and playing with Necros rock. 80hp/tick group lifetap. Group manatap. Awesome DoTs, with FD to slough the agro. And, in a pinch, when really needed, they can feed mana to seriously speed up recovery from death and to keep a healer or CCer going when things get rough.
>> Ok so there you gottit. Maybe tomorrow I'll stop whining and post >> some positive suggestions :) > > If you can never look to the GOOD things your class can do.. you will > NEVER be happy or satisfied..
 Signature On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr> Elder Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Prophet of 65 seasons Tainniel Fleabane, Halfling Warrior of 32 seasons Giluven, Wood Elf Druid of 26 seasons Graeniel, High Elf Enchanter of 25 seasons
Rumbledor - 26 Apr 2004 18:08 GMT < snip wet blanket of at least partial misinformation >
>> Ok so there you gottit. Maybe tomorrow I'll stop whining and post >> some positive suggestions :) > > If you can never look to the GOOD things your class can do.. you will > NEVER be happy or satisfied.. /agree high
We can all find disadvantages with every class. Many people play a monk or paladin, for example, because they like the character, not because they parse out at a certain level. Good grief, get your head out of the math and try to enjoy the game a bit. :P
However, you did qualify that this was from the perspective of the high- end game, though. Maybe it gets to be more of a picking of nits at that level. I wouldn't know yet. Your post just had a bit of a depressing tone. /shrug
 Signature Rumble
"Am I jumpin' from tree to tree all nimbly-bimbly?!"
Don Woods - 26 Apr 2004 23:09 GMT > > I also regularly out-dps this monk. > > Which weapons do you both use? I meant to ask this in the "what's the role of a monk" thread when someone brought up weapons, but I lost track of that post and remembered it when I saw the above remark.
Like someone else in that thread, my monk picked up a pair of Polished Steel Ulaks early in his career, and is finding them a bit weak at level 30. But I'm having trouble deciding what to replace them with. I've got a bit under 10K saved up (after buying various other gear) and I try to search the bazaar, but it's hard, partly because the bazaar search window doesn't let me filter on (a) damage/delay ratio or (b) weight. (For that matter, it won't let me filter on "Hand To Hand".)
The Ulaks are damage/delay = 9/27, weigh 1.1, and give 25 HP plus a little AC, STR, and other stats. I've picked up a Master Wu's Trance Stick at 7/18 with a damage bonus (which applies how, exactly?), weighs 1.0, no stats, and will proc for extra damage when I reach level 35 I think. I also have an Essence of Dol (10/28, weight 0.1, DEX +5) that I use for skilling up 1HB. And I managed to scavenge-loot a Steel Rod of the Knight from a skel commander, 2HB 35/44, 10 HP plus some other stats.
I look at things like Knuckle Dusters and see better damage ratio, but no stats. Or an Etched Steel Baton for the same ratio (14/28), but not a lot of stats and weight 3.0. Those 50 HP from the two batons are a lot at level 30. Is the extra damage worth giving up the stats? Are the ESB stats worth the extra weight?
Basically, what weapons do folks recommend for a level 30 monk that I can either quest for or buy at under 10K?
-- Don.
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Tyas_MT - 27 Apr 2004 00:53 GMT > > > I also regularly out-dps this monk. > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > me filter on (a) damage/delay ratio or (b) weight. (For that > matter, it won't let me filter on "Hand To Hand".) I believe the term for the h2h weapon filter is 'martial' iirc
Tolkienfan - 27 Apr 2004 00:56 GMT > Basically, what weapons do folks recommend for a level 30 monk > that I can either quest for or buy at under 10K? For your 2HB I would say a Peacebringer http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=568 These go pretty cheap on Stromm so I assume the older servers are even better. Usually in the 1K-2Kpp range.
For H2H the Bladed Knuckles of Submission http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=19346 are fairly cheap. Saw a set selling for 800pp in Stromm Bazaar and advised my friend who has a 30 monk to go get them.
For 1HB there are more options. The Adamantite Club http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=147 I got for 760pp in Bazaar. At 46 I started using an Entwood Mace http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=16475 . These sell for about 5Kpp.
LM
David Navarro - 27 Apr 2004 01:46 GMT Quoth Don Woods :
> Basically, what weapons do folks recommend for a level 30 monk > that I can either quest for or buy at under 10K? Goranga Spiked Club for the main hand (free) Stave of Shielding for the off-hand (2 to 4k) Steel Rod of the Knight for 2HB (no longer drops)
Approaching 40, I bought a Zekhas's Katar. Same ratio as the GSC, but useful for keeping H2H skilled up. To be honest, I don't find that the proc makes much of a difference.
 Signature Venerable Hanrahan, Storm Warden (Human), Fennin Ro Molgarin, 40-odd Monk (Human), Fennin Ro "Actually, the road to Hell is paved with human skulls. You can feel their teeth chittering through the soles of your boots as you walk on it."
Faeandar - 27 Apr 2004 02:12 GMT >Quoth Don Woods : > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >useful for keeping H2H skilled up. To be honest, I don't find that the >proc makes much of a difference. How about a PeaceBringer? Any good?
~JK
David Navarro - 27 Apr 2004 07:54 GMT Quoth Faeandar :
>>Quoth Don Woods : >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > How about a PeaceBringer? Any good? Well, as far as 2HB is concerned, in my case the weapon came first, and then the need to skill up to use it. I haven't been losing sleep about upgrading my 2HB weapon, but the ratio on that Peacebringer is pretty sweet... The weight is rather horrible for a Monk, but this is probably a secondary consideration these days.
 Signature Venerable Hanrahan, Storm Warden (Human), Fennin Ro Molgarin, 40-odd Monk (Human), Fennin Ro An Apple a day keeps Microsoft away.
Frank E - 27 Apr 2004 20:44 GMT >Well, as far as 2HB is concerned, in my case the weapon came first, and >then the need to skill up to use it. I haven't been losing sleep about >upgrading my 2HB weapon, but the ratio on that Peacebringer is pretty >sweet... The weight is rather horrible for a Monk, but this is probably >a secondary consideration these days. IFS, if you can find one, is a nice 38/40 2HB that I don't think has a recommended lvl. There's also an easy to get 2hb that drops in solC, don't recall if it has a recommended lvl but a group of 50s should be able to get one in an hour or so.
As for 1hb, I'd go with a Jade Mace and SoS, should be able to get them for around 3k total and they'd up your damage by about 50% from the Ulaks.
Rgds, Frank
Faned - 27 Apr 2004 15:46 GMT <don-ns@iCynic.com> wrote:
> I look at things like Knuckle Dusters and see better damage > ratio, but no stats. Get your stats elsewhere. Weapons are for hitting. A lot of monks switch weapons when they're pulling simply because their fighting weapons don't give them as much hp.
> Basically, what weapons do folks recommend for a level 30 monk > that I can either quest for or buy at under 10K? Knuckle Dusters or Jade Mace (my preference) / Stave of Shielding. I used two stave of shielding for a while back when it was a 30k item just because I fought in Chardok a lot and looted them. The goranga club is free, but not nearly as easy to get as it used to be since that zone is often nearly empty these days. There are a few other decent options, but probably none as cheap.
That's about the best damage you're gonna get without dropping a serious chunk of change.
Might want to look at a tranquil staff after you hit 50.
Don Woods - 29 Apr 2004 03:42 GMT > Knuckle Dusters or Jade Mace (my preference) / Stave of Shielding. I used > two stave of shielding for a while back when it was a 30k item just because > I fought in Chardok a lot and looted them. Several people mentioned the SoS, but all of them talk about using it in the secondary slot. You're the only one who mentioned using them in the primary. I ran some numbers, and it seems like at least through level 57 the SoS gives better DPS than any of the other suggestions, that 17/28 ratio is awesome compared to things like 14/28 or 9/18 or even 12/23, even once you factor in damage bonus. So why do people prefer other weapons for the primary slot?
-- Don.
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Faned - 29 Apr 2004 15:44 GMT <don-ns@iCynic.com> wrote:
> > Knuckle Dusters or Jade Mace (my preference) / Stave of Shielding. I used > > two stave of shielding for a while back when it was a 30k item just because [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > 14/28 or 9/18 or even 12/23, even once you factor in damage bonus. > So why do people prefer other weapons for the primary slot? It's a sloooow weapon for main hand. A lot of monks are addicted to the spam. =)
Don Woods - 29 Apr 2004 23:26 GMT > It's a sloooow weapon for main hand. A lot of monks are addicted to the > spam. =) But why does weapon speed matter, rather than DPS? Yeah, I admit it's nice seeing my strikes spamming up the chat window, but I'd rather kill the mobs faster! If the Stave of Shielding swings only 2/3 as often, but does more than 3/2 the damage on average, why isn't it better?
Okay, I know that faster weapons mean more chances to skill up, and more chances to proc if the weapon has a proc, but if those aren't considerations, why else? Oh, and there's also at least one downside to a faster weapon: if the target has a damage shield, you'd rather concentrate your damage into fewer hits. Actually, I can see wanting to have primary/secondary weapons of different speeds, to increase the chance of interrupting a spellcasting mob, but I'm not sure how much that matters in practice.
-- Don.
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Remington Stone - 29 Apr 2004 23:53 GMT Don Woods said: }Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> writes: }> It's a sloooow weapon for main hand. A lot of monks are addicted to the }> spam. =) }But why does weapon speed matter, rather than DPS? Yeah, I admit }it's nice seeing my strikes spamming up the chat window, but I'd }rather kill the mobs faster! If the Stave of Shielding swings only }2/3 as often, but does more than 3/2 the damage on average, why }isn't it better?
Damage bonus. In the main hand, there is a level-dependent damage bonus that is added with every hit. So faster hitting means the damage bonus gets applied more often.
Mainhand weapond should be compared not with dmg1/dly1 vs. dmg2/dly2 but with (2*dmg1+bonus)/dly1 vs (2*dmg2+bonus)/dly2. Further experimentation shows that the '2' varies as your ATK becomes obscene, but this provides a much better first approximation.
[65 Coercer] Zinphandel Chianti <Prism> (Gnome) Ayonae Ro
Don Woods - 30 Apr 2004 00:20 GMT > }But why does weapon speed matter, rather than DPS? Yeah, I admit > }it's nice seeing my strikes spamming up the chat window, but I'd [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > shows that the '2' varies as your ATK becomes obscene, but this provides a > much better first approximation. Yes, but in my earlier post (snipped at this point, but it's what Faned was replying to when he said the problem with SoS was it's too slow), I noted that even using the (2*dmg+bonus)/dly formula, the SoS at 17/28 comes out better than, say, Jade Mace at 9/18 or Zekhas' Katas or Goranga Spiked Club at 12/23:
Level 30 (bonus = 1): 17/28 --> 35/28 = 1.250 9/18 --> 19/18 = 1.056 Level 55 (bonus = 10): 17/28 --> 44/28 = 1.571 9/18 --> 28/18 = 1.556
I do see that, if you one 17/28 weapon and one 9/18, then after about level 35 you're better off putting the 9/18 in the primary, assuming you have a reasonable Dual Wield skill so the secondary weapon swings fairly often. But it still looks like you'd be better off with two of the 17/28, assuming they're not Lore.
Your remark about the "2" varying based on ATK probably answers my other recent post where I asked how average damage is computed. I knew about the "2*dmg+bonus" stuff but couldn't figure out where the "2*" came from. Of course, nobody seems real sure how to compute ATK, let alone exactly how ATK affects damage, so I guess I'm stuck with the approximation.
-- Don.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Sukrasisx, Monk 30 on E. Marr Note: If you reply by mail, -- Terrwini, Druid 17 on E. Marr I'll get to it sooner if you -- http://www.iCynic.com/~don remove the "hyphen n s"
Faned - 30 Apr 2004 03:08 GMT <ez064842@veni.ucdavis.edu> wrote:
> Don Woods said: > }Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> writes: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > shows that the '2' varies as your ATK becomes obscene, but this provides a > much better first approximation. At level 57
(2*17+10)/28 = 44/28 = 1.57 (SoS) (2*9+10)/18 = 28/18 = 1.55 (Jade Mace)
That was the question. He indicated he understood the damage bonus and asked why monks would choose weapon speed *over* DPS. I think you answered it quite well, actually. Most people don't bother to actually do the math or any parsing. =)
Don Woods - 29 Apr 2004 00:36 GMT > Basically, what weapons do folks recommend for a level 30 monk > that I can either quest for or buy at under 10K? I'd like the thank all the folks who replied, and especially the one who informed me that HTH items are searchable in the Bazaar window using the term "Martial". How the bleep I was expected to figure that out I'll never know!
Now I'm off to crank some damage ratios (primary and off-hand, etc.) to compare some of the suggestions that got made, while I watch a bit to see what the typical prices are.
Summary of items mentioned: 1HB/HTH: Goranga Spiked Club ("free", but looks a bit beyond my reach at level 30) Stave of Shielding Zekhas's Katar Knuckle Dusters Jade Mace Etched Steel Baton 2HB: Steel Rod of the Knight (I got one of these while they were dropping) Peacebringer (nice damage/delay, but heavy) Imbued Fighters Staff
-- Don.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Sukrasisx, Monk 30 on E. Marr Note: If you reply by mail, -- Terrwini, Druid 17 on E. Marr I'll get to it sooner if you -- http://www.iCynic.com/~don remove the "hyphen n s"
David Navarro - 29 Apr 2004 21:05 GMT Quoth Don Woods :
> Goranga Spiked Club ("free", but looks a bit beyond my reach at > level 30) Only a problem if you have to kill the Gorangas yourself, but they are left to rot with regularity. Your biggest problem will be beating other twinks to it. :) It's not a hard area to reach, and at 30 you can take a couple of licks from a Goranga until a successful Feign. After that, it's just a matter of being patient.
 Signature Venerable Hanrahan, Storm Warden (Human), Fennin Ro Molgarin, 40-odd Monk (Human), Fennin Ro When it comes to superheroes, few have struck as little fear in the hearts of villains as The Crimson Ptarmigan.
James Hicks - 28 Apr 2004 12:21 GMT > > Monk: A guildie of mine is a monk. Aside from him, I rarely see monks at > all [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Each guild has an average of 4 monks.. 1.5 beastlords.. 1.5 SK's.. 4 palis.. > 5 rangers.. 4 rogues Nice to see another PoV - also good to hear from you again Martin...
My guild has one SK, and one monk - but probably more than half it's current members joined in the last 12 months, so I would guess it's far more susceptable to trends than older, more established guilds where folks have had good gear for years.
> This doesnt rate terribly differently to the numbers I saw on Prexus for > several years either. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Not true I guess that judgement is fairly subjective - I haven't seen a monk tank SINCE the nerf, so I guess I have no hard data.
> > I also regularly out-dps this monk. > > Which weapons do you both use? He's got a SoFW, I've got a WMBS.
My melee is slightly more than half his, but when you add dots, my pet, etc, I get uncomfortably close.
For logs, I've got:
a burrower fight - I logged him at 80dps and me at 91. A small margin, but the fact is I shouldn't be anywhere NEAR him.
A couple of Tactics fights: him me 100 144 96 61 78 76 123 78 87 111 105 101 77 105 141 100 123 73 173 98 79 83 91 67 114 140 97 110 134 92 95 85 130 109 98 94 95 121
Averages 107, 97? Did I mention I was pulling and tanking throughout, and probably had a dead pet for some of those fights? :)
There is no way in hell I should be anywhere NEAR this guy in dps. Meanwhile, the mage in the same group *usually* managed to output more damage than both of us put together (and I know for fact he was half-AFK for bits of that log, not nuking as much as usual), and we had a 63 Epic berserker with almost no AA's (I think), who easily kept pace with us.. Now, do you actually want me to send these logs somewhere? Or were you just interested in the results?
Monks are a DPS class and should be outputting equal or better than a mage's DPS. They aren't even close at my stage of the game.
> > FD pulling, however this has been more or less arbitrarily erased from the > > game. > > I use FD in raids, elemental groups and ldons.. which part was it erased > from? My game. My usual group isn't ready for hardons, and the "normal" setting, well, I can pull 4-5 and it's the only time that adventure gets vaguely exciting. Our other places of grouping atm are basically tactics, where pretty much the same rule applies - 2-3 is fine (We have no crowd control), more than that is overdoing it. Oh and we still hit veksar every now and then. I can tank 2-3 veksar mobs myself, and i can't recall a pull of more than that there. I don't quite have elemental access.
On the plus side we're going to try a hardon with me FD pulling soon. I'm expecting to run out of time for the first 2-3 tries, but I hope after a few attempts it becomes viable.
> > Monks cannot solo. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I don't believe that 1 single bit I think this might be a difference of viewpoint thing, and also come down to what you mean when you say tank.
Do you tank stuff you'd *normally* have a plate class tank in your group? Or do you just tank when the pressure's off, doing stuff that's pretty easy? Can you tank hard ldons?
> A friend just recently servermoved to apply to my guild.. hes not PoTime > geared or anything of the sort. 6k hp unbuffed, BoT weapon.. so hes closer [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > FD is a good enough get out of jail card for that.. so where exactly has an > SK's soloability been removed? Lot's of places I *can* solo if I'm willing to either Kite mobs that give good experience, and thusly sacrifice about 75% of my DPS, OR I can have 100% of my DPS and kill babies that barely give any experience, or fear kite same. Fear arbitrarily being resisted from early-mid 50's mobs onwards has completely trashed my soloing.
How your SK buddy gets viable experience out of it is guesswork to me. Does he kite, or does he have some insanely cool vampiric thing going?
> > Paladins: Only slightly less forgotten that shadowknights, these hybrid > > tanks enjoy the single worst DPS in the game, save for clerics and mebee [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I think bards come in considerably below paladins for DPS... Would that be the swarm kiting bard, the one grouping with a charmed pet, or the one who's twisting mana and melee dots that add 50% to the group's DPS?
Still, I can agree with your statement. A bard trying to do DPS directly might be outdone by a pally. I've never tried to compare it.
> > class's hybrid clericness is *Still* far from realised in-game; their > heals [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Lol. A paladin who thinks and believes that is somebody who will never be > better than abysmal at his class. A lot of paladins who are damned brilliant at playing their class are saying it. One in particular I group with most days is skilled enough to pull/tank on a hard LDoN without a single piece of either VT or elemental gear - with a shammy healing. I suppose that might not be the greatest feat out there, but it DOES say something about his ability, I believe.
> > Manaburn may's well be deleted, as can porting and even evacs - by the > time you've done casting it, the > > Death-Touch-Quadding mobs have eaten your friends. And you. > > Exodus is pretty much an instant cas evac spell.. their port spells are > always desirable. Ae Tl more so, and Natimbi port even more so. their port spells are less than half as desirable as they were when most current 65 wizzies started their class. I don't think I've heard a wizzie say much positive about porting in a while.
> > Necro: Another great soloer - now reduced to mana-factory status in > groups. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > descriptions you are posting.. really makes me boggle and wonder about the > sort of people you are grouping and playing with Yeah, it's far higher than average - I did list them in the top half, I don't think necros are currently getting hammered as such, but they ARE being eclipsed by classes that are easier to play AND have more utility.
> > Ok so there you gottit. Maybe tomorrow I'll stop whining and post some > > positive suggestions :) > > If you can never look to the GOOD things your class can do.. you will NEVER > be happy or satisfied.. I can see the good, and regularly do. But if I posted 4 pages on what I think is good about my class, nobody would READ it, much less reply. Or would they? useful exercise?
Thanks for the post martin.
cheers, James
> -m -martin - 28 Apr 2004 13:33 GMT > Nice to see another PoV - also good to hear from you again Martin... Likewise :)
> My guild has one SK, and one monk - but probably more than half it's > current members joined in the last 12 months, so I would guess it's far more > susceptable to trends than older, more established guilds where folks have > had good gear for years. I think thats probably a good reasoning for some of it.. sortof a "traditional" guild, where monks exist, and do the pulling by default :)
> > > I also regularly out-dps this monk. > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > For logs, I've got: Assuming haste, brain cells etc were all on a par.. :) Thats pretty sad.
I know at the lower game equal weapons may not be as readily available (e.g the best droppable weapon for each class/type doesn't necesarily balance out).. wheras in a higher raiding guild, its pretty much the norm that all classes have (or are realistically waiting on) their dream weapons. These weapons do seem more balanced against each other.. which I guess is obvious, seens as they are both number "1".. wheras the best droppables would be numbers 5 and 15 for the class!
I know that when I do Ldons with "random_people", I will always outdamage all the melees in the group (refering to guilds clearly below me, or not guilded.. not including similar potime people).. this includes rogues too, by a good margin. (with less than elemental pokers). Yes, im fully aware that the only reason I outdamage some of them is because my weapons, attack, mods etc are far superioir... but the point is, things like this can create "blips" at lower levels too, and far easier/more common
> bits of that log, not nuking as much as usual), and we had a 63 Epic > berserker with almost no AA's (I think), who easily kept pace with us.. We have a 65 beserker, mostly in "noob" gear, but with a plane of time weapon (I haven't done any zerker research, but the weapon is the best 2hand knight weapon in the game atm).. so i figure his DPS will be pretty close to his maximum potential. I did an ikkinz trial with him recently (a quick/small expedition, with a named mob that everybody knows must be burned down asap.. so parsing is a decent indication here)
When i get a bit of time (busy busy this week!) I will try and dig the logfile out.. (I *think* I parsed the fight)
> Now, do you actually want me to send these logs somewhere? Or were you just
> interested in the results? Results :)
> Monks are a DPS class and should be outputting equal or better than a > mage's DPS. They aren't even close at my stage of the game. Well.. should they? Both are offensive classes, but 1 is pure melee and 1 is a caster... and thats a whole new can of worms for balance issues..
I know a mage can reach my DPS without attaining my level of gear.. I still group with melees over casters, though! Its too easy to afk and harder to detect as a caster than a melee !
> > I use FD in raids, elemental groups and ldons.. which part was it erased > > from? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > where pretty much the same rule applies - 2-3 is fine (We have no crowd > control), more than that is overdoing it But is it really better to deal with so many at once? I dunno.. i mean maybe for your group makeup it is. I know that when I exp in lower tiers, PoV or Tactics, whilst I can handle a 3 mob pull/train without major risk of death.. i just don't find it efficient to do so. In ldons its a bit different.. but the focus isnt on efficiency there (for a 4 hour exp grind etc).. so wasting extra mana is a welcome tradeoff for faster adventure points.
> On the plus side we're going to try a hardon with me FD pulling soon. > I'm expecting to run out of time for the first 2-3 tries, but I hope after a > few attempts it becomes viable. Start with a MM or Ruj mission. These are pretty spaced out (compared to some 6-7 mob rooms in other missions on regular occurance..)
> Do you tank stuff you'd *normally* have a plate class tank in your > group? Or do you just tank when the pressure's off, doing stuff that's > pretty easy? Can you tank hard ldons? Well.. I don't "normally" have a plate class in my group. I don't do the LFG thing anymore, and the core of my group is always monk/shaman/cleric. I have a r/l & best online friends channel, whom I will group with (and often do).. but if nobody is free, well its just the 2(3) of us. Some of it *is* tough as sh.t for me to tank, or tough for us to duo.. so yeah, Id say its stuff that "normal" people would use a plate class for. A lot of it isnt very efficient for me to tank, but its the norm and my cleric will always keep me up versus "difficult but not impossible" mobs. And whilst im pretty anal about group efficiency.. I guess an inefficient tank + good dps beats twiddling my thumbs and waiting for a tank.
Yes I have tanked hard LDons. I've tanked about 10 I guess (out of 20 or so hard ldons that ive attended).. Monk/Cleric/Shaman struggles a bit for DPS though in ldon hards (I also dont find hard ldons fun). Its not a regular occurance though - I tank in places where the 3 of us can work fine. If some friends come to join me, then fine. If not, its cool.. the 2(3) of us will just keep plugging away. Hard ldons are places id want to delay and get some proper dps for before i begin.. and if im doing that, I may as well delay and get a proper tank too. So i just don't!
> Lot's of places I *can* solo if I'm willing to either Kite mobs that > give good experience, and thusly sacrifice about 75% of my DPS, OR I can [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > How your SK buddy gets viable experience out of it is guesswork to me. > Does he kite, or does he have some insanely cool vampiric thing going? Ya he agro kites. I don't know if the exp is particularly fantastic, but it sure beats my inability to solo sh.t in god :) He also got this little trinket on his second day on the server (he only got the flag a day or so before moving) Glowing Bone Ring MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO DROP AC: 11 STR: +20 DEX: +15 STA: +10 WIS: +15 INT: +15 HP: +140 MANA: +120 ENDUR: +120 SV FIRE: +15 SV COLD: +15 SV MAGIC: +15 SV POISON: +15 Attack: +25 Regeneration: +8 Required level of 65. Focus Effect: Anger of E`ci Class: ALL Race: ALL
From a non-summoning, non-named mob.. :)
> Would that be the swarm kiting bard, the one grouping with a charmed > pet, or the one who's twisting mana and melee dots that add 50% to the > group's DPS? > > Still, I can agree with your statement. A bard trying to do DPS directly > might be outdone by a pally. I've never tried to compare it. Bard melee is very low.. average of maybe 100 dps in the highend (dps classes are doing upwards of 300 dps at this stage).. of course they can add like 10% dps to everybody else in the group
> A lot of paladins who are damned brilliant at playing their class are > saying it. One in particular I group with most days is skilled enough to > pull/tank on a hard LDoN without a single piece of either VT or elemental > gear - with a shammy healing. I suppose that might not be the greatest feat > out there, but it DOES say something about his ability, I believe. I don't think hes pulling, unless you have an equally skilled mezzer in the group too :) But I still stand by my comment, paladin heals are a lot more than insignificant "mana savers".. heck, often they are raid savers :) But of course it depends where you play.. if you are dealing with big nasty AE's, you will see how invaluable they are.
> their port spells are less than half as desirable as they were when most > current 65 wizzies started their class. I don't think I've heard a wizzie > say much positive about porting in a while. Well PoK book was going to "ruin" their business, right? the same class who friggin whined and whined about always being begged to port, before there were any alternatives.
It may not be the only way to travel now.. PoK books and selos dino are a useful alternate method.. but nothing beats the speed and ease of porting still.
> I can see the good, and regularly do. But if I posted 4 pages on what I > think is good about my class, nobody would READ it, much less reply. Or > would they? useful exercise? Yes. But only to prove you wrong :)
-m
Hippie Ramone - 28 Apr 2004 17:26 GMT : Start with a MM or Ruj mission. These are pretty spaced out (compared to : some 6-7 mob rooms in other missions on regular occurance..) This is good advice on your 1st hard ldon, however! If you get the Ruj map Hall of War or somesuch. Stop. Leave. Get a new one. It's a really horrible thing to break as you have a short distance from the ZI to a crossroad with around 8 or so statics and a couple of roamers. I'd rather do *any* Hard LDON Guk than that map.
K
Frank E - 28 Apr 2004 20:39 GMT >> On the plus side we're going to try a hardon with me FD pulling soon. >> I'm expecting to run out of time for the first 2-3 tries, but I hope after [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Start with a MM or Ruj mission. These are pretty spaced out (compared to >some 6-7 mob rooms in other missions on regular occurance..) The bards I know both prefer pulling Ruj to any of the other themes (on hard) but from what I've seen, the monks and SKs got owned pretty hard pulling there. It's an admittedly small sample size (just now getting started doing hard w/o a bard) but Mir seems to be the easiest for them to pull. Very few casters and decent mob spacings even in the big rooms. Also, I don't think anything enrages in Mir which makes mob placement for pets less critical.
It might have just been the luck-of-the-draw so far. I'd be interested in how other non-raiders (that can't handle a 3 or 4 pull on hard) view the difficulty.
Rgds, Frank
Ray Rocker - 28 Apr 2004 18:07 GMT >>> On the plus side we're going to try a hardon with me FD pulling soon. >>> I'm expecting to run out of time for the first 2-3 tries, but I hope after [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >in how other non-raiders (that can't handle a 3 or 4 pull on hard) >view the difficulty. Yes, the pullers I know seem to prefer Ruj also. MMC doesn't seem too bad either. I've had good luck in Guk hards (won first six I think before failing one) but a lot of people really don't like Guk hard. I don't think I've ever tried a Mir hard.
The really nasty one in my experience is Tak. My record is pretty dismal there. Had one recently where the bard died four times trying to pull a room with eight mobs, before we gave up and headed out. Felt bad for the guy because he claimed to have never failed a Tak mission before then.
-- Ray Rocker rocker@datasync.com
Jekke, Just Jekke - 28 Apr 2004 18:08 GMT >>> On the plus side we're going to try a hardon with me FD pulling soon. >>> I'm expecting to run out of time for the first 2-3 tries, but I hope after [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >big rooms. Also, I don't think anything enrages in Mir which makes mob >placement for pets less critical. Each theme seems to have a few rooms that, when combined, account for about 3/4 of all the LDoN deaths I've seen. Miragul's has one of the worst, which is less-than-affectionately known as the "flying monkey room of death."
 Signature --Jekke ===================== Playing on Torvonilous Mipmip Bromeliad (Froglok Cleric, 63) http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=850034 Venerable Sheava Ebonrezzor (Dark Elf Cleric, 65) *STOLEN* Veteran Moulin Khmer (Dark Elf Rogue, 65) http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=87681 Qiin Dred (Iksar Necromancer, 55) http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=717977 Brikk Hauss (Ogre Warrior, 51)
Jennaii - 27 Apr 2004 02:43 GMT >Lastly: following is a list of classes and my thoughts, in many cases >ill-informed (those of you who play those classes please step forward and >swipe away :). I think you are wrong on all counts. The key to being *wanted* in groups is knowing how to play your class. I've played with crappy beasties, paladins, rangers, rogues, clerics, etc. They didn't know how to play their characters, they were lazy, they were AFK, they were ineffective, loud, overbearing, self centered, I often wonder: powerleveled or ebayed, which is it? I've also played with GREAT monks, paladins, rogues, druids, rangers etc. They knew how to adapt their playing style to fit the group. They were always attentive and at their post ready for action. They make suggestions not demands. If you are ill informed of how to play your character you are going to suck. If you watch, learn, read up, take advise, and contribute effectively you'll be great at your class. Healea Sternstar - 60 cleric Skila Windrunner - 57 ranger Jennaii - 45 druid Deatha - 32 necromancer Linni - 31 shaman Stormfoot - 31 warrior Deatha - 26 necro Tholuxe Paells
Hamsterface - 27 Apr 2004 10:48 GMT > I think you are wrong on all counts. The key to being *wanted* in groups is > knowing how to play your class. I agree with you for the most part but that point is wrong. It only applies if you are grouping with people that you know. If you are just a name on a LFG list then being good doesn't help.... all that helps is the perceived usefulness of your class.
> I've played with crappy beasties, paladins, > rangers, rogues, clerics, etc. They didn't know how to play their characters, > they were lazy, they were AFK, they were ineffective, loud, overbearing, self > centered, I often wonder: powerleveled or ebayed, which is it? Have been fairly lucky with groups so far. Always fine the worst players to be the ones who start "I have a 65th level xxxx main so I know what I am talking about". Often not the case as they can't play their alt nearly as well as they claim to play there main and they also try to harrangue(sp?) the guy in the party who is playing the class of their main. People have different play styles - just because a level 30, 50, 60th level player doesn't play the way you do does not necessarily mean they are wrong.
> I've also played with GREAT monks, paladins, rogues, druids, rangers etc. > They knew how to adapt their playing style to fit the group. They were always [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > If you watch, learn, read up, take advise, and contribute effectively you'll > be great at your class. /agree
> Healea Sternstar - 60 cleric > Skila Windrunner - 57 ranger [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Deatha - 26 necro > Tholuxe Paells 61 mnk, 52 nec, 47 clr, 47 drd, 34 enc, 34 pal, 14 war ... got way too many characters 8(
Palindrome - 27 Apr 2004 11:30 GMT >> I think you are wrong on all counts. The key to being *wanted* in groups is >> knowing how to play your class. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >just a name on a LFG list then being good doesn't help.... all that >helps is the perceived usefulness of your class. Yes, true. LFG does not indicate how good you are... If the perception of a class (any class) is that they are not that good, a *good* player is probably going to be very lucky just to get an invite. If they recruit a bad player, the perception of the class drops again. Give a dog a bad name...
Mind you, friends in-game and Guildies would be a useful way to get a Monk (or whatever) in group, naturally... It's just that in my guild the majority of players are using characters at lvl 45+, and if it *is* lower, it's almost always just a bazaar mule. (This is causing a bit of flak between players who only have low level characters and the higher level ones who rarely even chat in guild to them, but that's another topic)
Palindrome
Jennaii - 27 Apr 2004 11:36 GMT >If you are >just a name on a LFG list then being good doesn't help.... all that >helps is the perceived usefulness of your class. Yes and no. There's a cleric on TP that I will NOT group with, I'd rather take a druid or a shaman for healer over her. And several necros and rangers that I'll take *any* time because they are such good team players. But I know what you are saying.
>People have different play styles - just because >a level 30, 50, 60th level player doesn't play the way you do does not >necessarily mean they are wrong. True. *But*. I've played with rangers who really thought their job in a group was to shoot arrows. Clerics who did nothing but heal and sat around with full mana in a dungeon full of undead. Pet classes who send their pets into battle and spent the rest of the time sitting on their butts doing nothing. Warriors who clearly never learned taunt. They may not be playing *wrong*, but I'm sure not going to be eager to play with any of them again. I *prefer* to play with people who are truly having a good time being their class. Not the ones who put in the /lfg description: "experience grind".
Healea Sternstar - 60 cleric Skila Windrunner - 57 ranger Jennaii - 45 druid Deatha - 32 necromancer Linni - 31 shaman Stormfoot - 31 warrior Deatha - 26 necro Tholuxe Paells
Tyas_MT - 27 Apr 2004 17:00 GMT > >Lastly: following is a list of classes and my thoughts, in many cases <snip>
> rangers, rogues, clerics, etc. They didn't know how to play their characters, > they were lazy, they were AFK, they were ineffective, loud, overbearing, self > centered, I often wonder: powerleveled or ebayed, which is it? Just because I was Lazy, loud, overbearing and self-centered doesn't mean I was a bad enchanter.
Actually, the last 3 are a requirement for good enchanters, according to the union pamphlet. ^_-
Remington Stone - 27 Apr 2004 21:40 GMT Tyas_MT said: }"Jennaii" <jennaii@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message }> >Lastly: following is a list of classes and my thoughts, in many cases }> rangers, rogues, clerics, etc. They didn't know how to play their }> characters, they were lazy, they were AFK, they were ineffective, }> loud, overbearing, self centered, I often wonder: powerleveled or }> ebayed, which is it? }Just because I was Lazy, loud, overbearing and self-centered doesn't mean I }was a bad enchanter. }Actually, the last 3 are a requirement for good enchanters, according to the }union pamphlet.
Heh, the union pamphlet lies! There's no way you can be a lazy chanter (in a group) and be even marginally effective. On a raid (where mana draining doesn't play a role), sure. Buff everyone, then maybe nuke if you feel like it, unless you're the only enchanter, then you'll have to tash too, and cripple if the shammies are being lazy.
Loud and overbearing? Yes, those are required, usually, in pickup groups. Usually after the eleventy-seventh mezz has been broken.
Self-centered is not allowed. Enchanters are one of the top classes for being put in the position of having to take one for the team. If you're too self-centered for that... please. This is not the class you are looking for. Move along.
[65 Coercer] Zinphandel Chianti <Prism> (Gnome) Ayonae Ro
Tyas_MT - 27 Apr 2004 23:37 GMT > Tyas_MT said: > }"Jennaii" <jennaii@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > you feel like it, unless you're the only enchanter, then you'll have to > tash too, and cripple if the shammies are being lazy. Lazy is 1, then there are 3 more. Therefore the pamphlet desn't include lazy...
> Loud and overbearing? Yes, those are required, usually, in pickup groups. > Usually after the eleventy-seventh mezz has been broken. Ohhh yeah.
> Self-centered is not allowed. Enchanters are one of the top classes for > being put in the position of having to take one for the team. If you're > too self-centered for that... please. This is not the class you are > looking for. Move along. But, the world revolves around me!!!
Seriously, I (was) a level 55 enchanter... and while I am lazy, lazy groups were not worth the effort...
If my mana bar wasn't going down, I was bored.
Well I was far from Uber, not even Uber from afar...
> [65 Coercer] Zinphandel Chianti <Prism> (Gnome) Ayonae Ro Remington Stone - 28 Apr 2004 00:14 GMT Tyas_MT said: }"Remington Stone" <ez064842@vici.ucdavis.edu> wrote in message }> Tyas_MT said: }> }"Jennaii" <jennaii@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message }> }> >Lastly: following is a list of classes and my thoughts, in many cases }> }> rangers, rogues, clerics, etc. They didn't know how to play their }> }> characters, they were lazy, they were AFK, they were ineffective, }> }> loud, overbearing, self centered, I often wonder: powerleveled or }> }> ebayed, which is it? }> }Just because I was Lazy, loud, overbearing and self-centered doesn't mean }> }I was a bad enchanter. }> }Actually, the last 3 are a requirement for good enchanters, according to }> }the union pamphlet. }> Heh, the union pamphlet lies! There's no way you can be a lazy chanter }> (in a group) and be even marginally effective. On a raid (where mana }> draining doesn't play a role), sure. Buff everyone, then maybe nuke if }> you feel like it, unless you're the only enchanter, then you'll have to }> tash too, and cripple if the shammies are being lazy. }Lazy is 1, then there are 3 more. Therefore the pamphlet desn't include }lazy...
Ahh! Good thing 'ability to count to 3' wasn't a requirement. :)
[65 Coercer] Zinphandel Chianti <Prism> (Gnome) Ayonae Ro
Graeme Faelban - 28 Apr 2004 14:43 GMT You should try to get into the habit of moving the "-- " to the bottom of the post, that signifies the start of the signature. It makes newsreaders that automatically snip signatures in replies snip your entire post.
 Signature On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr> Elder Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Prophet of 65 seasons Tainniel Fleabane, Halfling Warrior of 32 seasons Giluven, Wood Elf Druid of 26 seasons Graeniel, High Elf Enchanter of 25 seasons
Tyas_MT - 28 Apr 2004 16:35 GMT > "Tyas_MT" <tyas_mt@hotplonkmail.com> wrote in > > You should try to get into the habit of moving the "-- " to the bottom of > the post, that signifies the start of the signature. It makes newsreaders > that automatically snip signatures in replies snip your entire post. hmmm I've never used a newsreader that fancy... kay.
stupid top post encouraging OE...
Graeme Faelban - 28 Apr 2004 17:05 GMT >> "Tyas_MT" <tyas_mt@hotplonkmail.com> wrote in >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > stupid top post encouraging OE... Well, you could switch to a more friendly newsreader...
 Signature On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr> Elder Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Prophet of 65 seasons Tainniel Fleabane, Halfling Warrior of 32 seasons Giluven, Wood Elf Druid of 26 seasons Graeniel, High Elf Enchanter of 25 seasons
Tyas_MT - 29 Apr 2004 16:13 GMT > Well, you could switch to a more friendly newsreader... I'm at work.. we have OE and outlook, we can't have other software installed without 'good cause'.
While I am the one that enforces that, I'm just honest enough not to cheat.
Graeme Faelban - 30 Apr 2004 14:53 GMT >> Well, you could switch to a more friendly newsreader... > I'm at work.. we have OE and outlook, we can't have other software > installed without 'good cause'. > > While I am the one that enforces that, I'm just honest enough not to > cheat. Ah well, sorry to hear that.
 Signature On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr> Elder Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Prophet of 65 seasons Tainniel Fleabane, Halfling Warrior of 32 seasons Giluven, Wood Elf Druid of 26 seasons Graeniel, High Elf Enchanter of 25 seasons
Sean Kennedy - 30 Apr 2004 23:43 GMT >>> Well, you could switch to a more friendly newsreader... >> I'm at work.. we have OE and outlook, we can't have other software [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Ah well, sorry to hear that. Oh, heck. I can't remember the name of the program I had running on my Linux box .......... it did remote desktop over HTTP. Anywhere you had web access you could access your linux box. At any rate, I used it so I could run my newsreader and mail software on my home box and not leave any footprints on the box I used to access it.
Ringo - 27 Apr 2004 22:36 GMT >>Lastly: following is a list of classes and my thoughts, in many cases >>ill-informed (those of you who play those classes please step forward and [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >Deatha - 26 necro >Tholuxe Paells After some thought on the issue I really think the main problem with EQ (and many of the older games) is that the AI engine is pathetic. Course this is due to when it was written but after playing a couple of other games I can say that a stronger AI allows a much better balance of player classes. Wizzie type mobs that hit like war and nuke like a moron are not needed because the mob is acting according to its class and doing it fairly well. Also mobs tend to seem to work together in a much more realistic fashion. This takes the burden off the melee classes and puts more on the caster classes who may not have the hitpoints to survive a large nuke. Mobs focus on healers and nukers quickly if the melee isnt doing a good job and may do it anyway. Smarter mobs make for better play and EQ mobs are dumb as rocks for the most part. Just something to consider, seriously hope future releases take this to heart. Till then dont think theres any way to have a fair balance between player classes.
Hamsterface - 28 Apr 2004 10:20 GMT > After some thought on the issue I really think the main problem with > EQ (and many of the older games) is that the AI engine is pathetic. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > future releases take this to heart. Till then dont think theres any > way to have a fair balance between player classes. Yes the AI is old fashioned. You would expect caster mobs to hang back rather than charging into melee to get slaughtered.
However, if the AI was better it would be a slaughter .. can you imagine the mob casters seeing a wizard standing there and chain nuking him? Wouldn't be many people playing casters after a few weeks of that !
What about the mobs that see your cleric and think "breakfast" before he even starts healing?
They'd have to redesign the whole balance of the game (taunt / aggro etc) to make that work.
Ringo - 28 Apr 2004 11:36 GMT >> After some thought on the issue I really think the main problem with >> EQ (and many of the older games) is that the AI engine is pathetic. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >They'd have to redesign the whole balance of the game (taunt / aggro >etc) to make that work. Well remember that they currently do a few things now to "make up" for the lack of AI. Mob hitpoints are way out of proportion to player hit points, mobs are made to hit for much more than a player and are given some really outlandish abilites. Ask any chanter that solos how good a tank a mob makes. As you level up these differences increase to the point that things get unworkable. Now basicaly the whole class balance issue is made unfixable by this method. My point is older games like EQ are unfixable and we should look to the newer games.
James Hicks - 28 Apr 2004 11:38 GMT > >Lastly: following is a list of classes and my thoughts, in many cases > >ill-informed (those of you who play those classes please step forward and > >swipe away :). > > I think you are wrong on all counts. The key to being *wanted* in groups is > knowing how to play your class. The second time, yes.
The first time anyone has the option of grouping with you, they usually haven't the faintest clue how good YOU are, and will go on things like level, guild, and class - which is where class perceptions/balance come in.
> I've played with crappy beasties, paladins, > rangers, rogues, clerics, etc. They didn't know how to play their characters, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > If you watch, learn, read up, take advise, and contribute effectively you'll be > great at your class. Yeah, and after 18 months, 65 levels, 100AA's, tons of carefully selected and earned gear, I'm a pretty good shadowknight.
Unfortunately, a pretty good shadowknight comes out poorly next to favorably unbalanced classes who may be played relatively badly.
Yes if someone's a *total* idiot it doesn't matter what class they play - they will suck. But I haven't seen many total idiots about since I hit the 60's. Usually even if someone's a dickhead they'll have *some* apparent skill.
> Healea Sternstar - 60 cleric > Skila Windrunner - 57 ranger [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Deatha - 26 necro > Tholuxe Paells Ringo - 27 Apr 2004 14:46 GMT Since you are about to be picked apart by the "every thing is rosey" crowd that will cut you valid points, Heres a bit of fairness.
>Let me begin by saying: The last thing I want from Sony is another nerf to >any class. I benefit from the uberness of the uber. Amen
>Secondly: What in god's name possesed them to introduce another dps melee? >Can anyone think of even a BAD reason to do so? Monks and rogues are almost >dead as a class, it is CLEAR they're having real problems thinking of stuff >for pure melee's to do, WHY compound it by adding yet another class to this >fallen category? Money. Milking the last drop from the game.
>Thirdly: I am a 65/101 shadowknight who caps out at 7,474hp. I consider >myself fairly average for a 65 SK on my server. I state my class and status [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >are next to dead, and their DPS is behind every single class that considers >itself DPS, and in many cases behind hybrids as well. The reason I left the game. Very true, logs are availible at Monkly Biz for the uneducated.
>Rogue: I haven't logged a rogue recently. Last time I did, I wasn't that >impressed, but they certainly left monks for dead. I can't *Really* comment [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >what is a 'shadowknight'". In skelly form I am invariably mistaken for a >necro by any stranger (even in my own guild) who groups with me. SK was my last attempt to stay with EQ. But I could see the way things were going in LDoN and just gave up. Seems now I was right to do so.
>Paladins: Only slightly less forgotten that shadowknights, these hybrid >tanks enjoy the single worst DPS in the game, save for clerics and mebee [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >the other 50% being so uber they're kinda balanced now - if a little one >dimensional. Oh man how true.
>Druid: The great root-rotting soloist is a mediocre nobody in the world of >30-second fights and 80% group bonuses. His abrupt re-re-re-training as a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >these guys are off their high horse and up sh.t creek with the rest of us, >but they sure have a paddle. Necro DPS is a bit better than this. Would place them just below Mage for favorite child class.
>Zerker: wtf? Money lol
>Shaman: These guys aren't currently stuffed, but they're definitely on the >way back down. They can solo, they're *lusted* after for groups, they're [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >out on the streets begging for food... And hats off to you, you ate sh.t for >60 levels getting there! Another Amen
>Cleric: We're in the top rungs now. Any group that doesn't already have a >cleric will take a cleric. A lot of groups who do already have a cleric will >take a cleric. A raiding guild with 97 clerics will take another cleric. >They can't solo for sh.t, mostly because of all the tells they get, begging >them to join a group or guild. Who could be alone with all that lust raining >down on them? But god how boring it was and frustrating too. Very true and dead on.
>Enchanter: A slight fall from total king of the pops has not mitigated this >guy's top-notch solo, group and raid desireability. Also a wonderfully fun [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >3 levels ago. Plus your very own stacks-with-C mana regeneratorernator. >These guys have never worked an honest day in their life :o) Most favored child in the melee line no doubt.
>Mage: Highest DPS class in the game - but NOT a pure DPS class (how's that >for unbalanced?). I group regularly with a mage who has 300AA's. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >pet, or do some CC, or summon something jaw-dropping and vital. Or CoTH, or >pull, or DS, or modrod, or... Sickening isnt it....
>Bard: Still absolutely crapping on everyone else, but remaining rare due to >the fact that people who play bards hands come off and jitter around on the >floor in their mid 60's. Or earlier. Dead on. Even with a Nostro and macros carpal tunnel is a very real danger. Sony could be sued over this intentional design flaw lol
>Ok so there you gottit. Maybe tomorrow I'll stop whining and post some >positive suggestions :) > >Cheers, >James James just quit. Seriously just walk away and find a new addiction. Its fun and theres a lot to pick from today.
Scott - 27 Apr 2004 18:04 GMT > Since you are about to be picked apart by the "every thing is rosey" > crowd that will cut you valid points, Heres a bit of fairness. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > > Money. Milking the last drop from the game. I actually have fun playing my rogue and zerker.
Hamsterface - 28 Apr 2004 10:14 GMT > >Secondly: What in god's name possesed them to introduce another dps melee? > >Can anyone think of even a BAD reason to do so? Monks and rogues are almost [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > > Money. Milking the last drop from the game. Yup, must be .. certainly wasn't need and wasn't wanted by a lot of the people whose classes were going to get squeezed (monks and rangers spring to mind).
> >Necro: Another great soloer - now reduced to mana-factory status in groups. > >Lusted after still for slightly-better-than-useless-DPS, quite good at [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Necro DPS is a bit better than this. Would place them just below Mage > for favorite child class. My highest alt is a necro ... bet thing I have seen about them that you don't mention is that the 49+ level pets can often outdamage the tanks in the group (unless they are twinked to the eyeballs!) as well as the role you list above. Pre-49 bit of a waste of space in a group but post 49 I'll give them room anytime.
Never really been impressed with necro mez though ... maybe my DE just hasn't got the charisma to pull it off.
Michael Johnson - 29 Apr 2004 02:19 GMT >Let me begin by saying: The last thing I want from Sony is another nerf to >any class. I benefit from the uberness of the uber. SoE to players.. you are all equally worthless.. hence you are all equally balanced :>
>Secondly: What in god's name possesed them to introduce another dps melee? >Can anyone think of even a BAD reason to do so? Hmm.. maybe they couldn't think of a caster class that was distinguishable enough to create.
>Monks and rogues are almost dead as a class Weird on rogues.. i would often go rogue for damage in group.
>Rogue: I haven't logged a rogue recently. Last time I did, I wasn't that >impressed, but they certainly left monks for dead. I can't *Really* comment >here, but for the sake of completeness, I *imagine* these guys are barely >behind of monks in the "forgotten class" stakes. They have a warm place in my heart.. and I always had them along.. the more the better. Their sustained dps, especially at the high end, torches every other class i've used for damage. I've gone as many as 3 elementally equipped rogues in group. The mobs were practically throwing themselves down before we could get to them due to the hurt. The nice part about rogues as opposed to wizards/mages is that you know they won't run low on mana over time.
>Shadowknights: Like monks, we used to FD pull. I literally have not used FD >to pull in *six months*. It is useless in any time-limit situation, and even [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >what is a 'shadowknight'". In skelly form I am invariably mistaken for a >necro by any stranger (even in my own guild) who groups with me. Well... regardless of the changes, wizards and mages still have you in their hearts for normal group tanking... anything short of high level GoD.
>Warriors: Much as these amiable gentle giants seem to be delighted with the >prospect of being top-tank again in all areas (a position I in no way ever [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >isn't THAT great in a game where almost half the population are tanks of >some sort, and 99% of groups want... one.
>And warrior soloing is never a credible option. We can kill dark blue biles in PoD if that counts... and if you disregard the downtime.
>Druid: The great root-rotting soloist is a mediocre nobody in the world of >30-second fights and 80% group bonuses. His abrupt re-re-re-training as a >healer has saved his grouping neck, and charm soloing remains a cool >option - but he's the bottom of the top rungs. Aye.. still a viable healer for your easy ldon's.. and i've seen 'great' druids be able to heal hards.
>Necro: Another great soloer - now reduced to mana-factory status in groups. Maybe in your groups. Sure they've got the mana pump going.. but i usually look at them for damage and then twitching. And in a pinch.. jfc... necro healing/BL regen could break me even on HP. The number of roles they can have in a LDoN is just staggering.. and the more necros the better imo. For all the devastation LDoN did monks for grouping.. it did the flip side for necros and got them a lot of groups. A LOT.
>Lusted after still for slightly-better-than-useless-DPS A high level necro has very good dps, even while twitching. And if they crit dot Horror they can do 1K/tick.. and have the best mana regen in the game so that they can almost never not have mana.
>Shaman: These guys aren't currently stuffed, but they're definitely on the >way back down. They can solo, they're *lusted* after for groups, Not my groups. Removing of course GoD from the equation, I would *ALWAYS* go high level BL over high level shaman if I could get one. Main reason.. dps and the fact that both the BL pet and the BL could be used as an add tank in a pinch. Its basically like adding 2 tanks. Shaman are good when you need a big mob slowed fast... other than that?
>they're critical on raids... but they work their reeking a.ses off to get (and stay) >there, and have very little to look forward to right now. Group wise they've been in the hurt locker from BL's for a while now.
>Beastlord: Any group, guild, or park bench that says 'no' to a beastlord >should be shot, hung, drawn, quartered and made to watch reruns of the brady >bunch. A monk with some nukes and a necro-level pet - and shammy spells from >3 levels ago. Plus your very own stacks-with-C mana regeneratorernator. >These guys have never worked an honest day in their life :o) Pretty much :>. And if you have one.. why get a shaman? :>
Nice breakdown.
-MJ
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