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Game Forum / Role Playing Games / EverQuest / October 2003DPS Formula
Anyone knbow the formula for determining dps, without damage bonus? I can't figure the relationship: Stone Etched Warblade - Dam 45 Delay 30,Ratio 0.666, DPS 30.33 (Acording to EQ Maps/news) Ornate Greatblade - Dam 35 Dly 23, Ratio 0.657, DPS 30.87 The Sword of Ssraeshaz - Dam 52 Del 42, Ratio 0.807, DPS 25 What is the common denominator? Probably obvious, but I dont see it. <clintlac@bellsouth.net> wrote: > Anyone knbow the formula for determining dps, without damage bonus? I can't figure the > relationship: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > What is the common denominator? Probably obvious, but I dont see it. Honestly, no clue how they're figuring it. I'd be more curious as to why you would care. That "DPS" number listed has absolutely zero relevance to reality. If you're just looking for a number to compare to get a quick and dirty "which is better for me" comparison, the ratio and some common sense will suffice (also, figure the ratio as damage/delay instead of delay/damage to get a number that more people will be familiar with). Anyone who has played a melee to high levels will look at the "DPS" figures for stone etched warblade compared to ornate greatblade and laugh. A weapon with a better ratio *and* an actual damage bonus is rated at less "DPS" than a weapon with worse ratio and minimal damage bonus. Not bloody likely. ><clintlac@bellsouth.net> wrote: >> Stone Etched Warblade - Dam 45 Delay 30,Ratio 0.666, DPS 30.33 >> Ornate Greatblade - Dam 35 Dly 23, Ratio >> 0.657, DPS 30.87 The Sword of Ssraeshaz - Dam 52 Del 42, Ratio 0.807, >> DPS 25 > Anyone who has played a melee to high levels will look at the "DPS" > figures for stone etched warblade compared to ornate greatblade and > laugh. A weapon with a better ratio *and* an actual damage bonus is > rated at less "DPS" than a weapon with worse ratio and minimal damage > bonus. Not bloody likely. Assuming these are both 1 handers, I would take the Ornate every time. In formulating optimum weapons, ratio is the prime characteristic for your offhand. For your primary, you really need to find the compared modal of the weapon, which takes into account the added damage of your primary hand damage bonus swinging more times per minute. Modal: The modal is the figure one reaches by the following equation Primary: WeaponDamage * 2 + DamageBonus Secondary: WeaponDamage * 2 Compared Modal: The compared modal is the modal of a weapon divided by it's delay. This figure is a good measure of the weapons efficiency. Primary or secondary: Modal / Delay ~Empty  Signature'You're not friends. You'll never be friends. You'll be in love till it kills you both. You'll fight, and you'll shag, and you'll hate each other till it makes you quiver, but you'll never be friends. Love isn't brains, children, it's blood... blood screaming inside you to work its will. I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it.' Spike > ><clintlac@bellsouth.net> wrote: > > >> Stone Etched Warblade - Dam 45 Delay 30,Ratio 0.666, DPS 30.33 > >> Ornate Greatblade - Dam 35 Dly 23, Ratio > >> 0.657, DPS 30.87 The Sword of Ssraeshaz - Dam 52 Del 42, Ratio 0.807, > >> DPS 25 They're using (2*DAM+1)/(DEL/10) to get DPS, by the way. > > Anyone who has played a melee to high levels will look at the "DPS" > > figures for stone etched warblade compared to ornate greatblade and > > laugh. A weapon with a better ratio *and* an actual damage bonus is > > rated at less "DPS" than a weapon with worse ratio and minimal damage > > bonus. Not bloody likely. It's because of the stupid formula they're using, which makes the damage bonus for all weapons equal to one. Assuming level 65, you'd have a damage bonus on the OG of 14, and of 36 on the SEWS. So better damage power rankings would be 42 on the SEWS, and 36.5 on the OG. These numbers are nowhere near DPS, by the way - they're just a good measure of the relative DPS of two weapons. > Assuming these are both 1 handers, I would take the Ornate every time. They're two-handers. EQ is mudflated, but it's not quite mudflated to the point that 35/23 one handers exist. The best ratio one hander I can think of is the MNK/BST Time weapon, 23/20 augmentable to 25/20 with LDoN. James > They're two-handers. EQ is mudflated, but it's not quite mudflated to > the point that 35/23 one handers exist. The best ratio one hander I can > think of is the MNK/BST Time weapon, 23/20 augmentable to 25/20 with LDoN. Nah, knights have way better then that. Offcourse they can't dualwield so it basically is a faster version of a 2h weapon anyway :). > They're using (2*DAM+1)/(DEL/10) to get DPS, by the way. Hahaha! That figure is only part of a (currently not fully understood outside of SOE Dev) much larger equation. >> Assuming these are both 1 handers, I would take the Ornate every >> time. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > can think of is the MNK/BST Time weapon, 23/20 augmentable to 25/20 > with LDoN. I've seen better one handers than that, I think. I could be wrong, though. Bladed weapons are outside of my sphere of knowledge- I've never played a blade-wielding class outsie of the weenie dagger I gave my now-dead enchanter. ~Empty Signature'You're not friends. You'll never be friends. You'll be in love till it kills you both. You'll fight, and you'll shag, and you'll hate each other till it makes you quiver, but you'll never be friends. Love isn't brains, children, it's blood... blood screaming inside you to work its will. I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it.' Spike <emptyCANOFSPAM@emptiedout.com> wrote: > ><clintlac@bellsouth.net> wrote: > >> Stone Etched Warblade - Dam 45 Delay 30,Ratio 0.666, DPS 30.33 [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Assuming these are both 1 handers, I would take the Ornate every time. In 1-handed form the ornate gets a damage bonus that scales linearly with the higher delay warblade. I probably would too. Of course, all of us can only dream of 35/23 1h weapons until a couple expansions from now anyway. :) > In formulating optimum weapons, ratio is the prime characteristic for your > offhand. For your primary, you really need to find the compared modal of [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > delay. This figure is a good measure of the weapons efficiency. > Primary or secondary: Modal / Delay (45 x 2 + (65-25)/3)/30 = 3.43 (35 x 2 + (65-25)/3)/23 = 3.7 My main hand 1h weapon - (17 x 2 + (65-25)/3)/21 = 2.24 Yeah, those would make some kickass 1h weapons. But since they aren't, it might be better to look at them as the 2h weapons they are. :) Using your formula for modals -- (45 x 2 + (65-25/3) + (65-27/4) + 1) / 30 = 3.79 (35 x 2 + (65-25/3) + 1) / 23 = 3.67 (52 x 2 + (65-25/3) + (65-27/4) + 1) / 42 = 3.04 When they're 2h weapons, using the "modal method", it's obvious which one is the better weapon. No surprise, the one with the better ratio and higher damage bonus. I'm not a big fan of modals, however, as I have found situations where they are simply wrong in what they would suggest. That's because they don't take into account haste and +atk, both of which will have an impact on a weapon's performance. For instance, the REBB and mithril shod staff. The REBB puts out better damage in my hands, but put the mithril shod in the hands of someone with 2k+ atk and it will outperform the REBB. ><emptyCANOFSPAM@emptiedout.com> wrote: >> Assuming these are both 1 handers, I would take the Ornate every [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > from now anyway. >:) Yeah, I wan't thinking well when I made that assumption. > Using your formula for modals -- > > (45 x 2 + (65-25/3) + (65-27/4) + 1) / 30 = 3.79 > (35 x 2 + (65-25/3) + 1) / 23 = 3.67 > (52 x 2 + (65-25/3) + (65-27/4) + 1) / 42 = 3.04 That formula (at least as far as Monks are concerned, and I think globally) is incorrect for 2 handers. 2 handed weapons get a sliding scale for damage bonus, with higher-delay weapons getting a better bonus. > I'm not a big fan of modals, however, as I > have found situations where they are simply wrong in what they would > suggest. That's because they don't take into account haste and +atk, > both of which will have an impact on a weapon's performance. Well, +atk has an effect, but I am not sure what, and I don't think anyone has exact formulae on that. Haste will have the same effect on both weapons, being multiplicative in any DPS equation, and can safely be ignored(except of course with stuff like the Velium Swiftblade, in which case it obviously can only be in effect for one of the weapons) > For > instance, the REBB and mithril shod staff. The REBB puts out better > damage in my hands, but put the mithril shod in the hands of someone > with 2k+ atk and it will outperform the REBB. Interesting... What are the stats on those two weapons? ~Empty Signature'You're not friends. You'll never be friends. You'll be in love till it kills you both. You'll fight, and you'll shag, and you'll hate each other till it makes you quiver, but you'll never be friends. Love isn't brains, children, it's blood... blood screaming inside you to work its will. I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it.' Spike <emptyCANOFSPAM@emptiedout.com> wrote: > ><emptyCANOFSPAM@emptiedout.com> wrote: > >> Assuming these are both 1 handers, I would take the Ornate every [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > is incorrect for 2 handers. 2 handed weapons get a sliding scale for damage > bonus, with higher-delay weapons getting a better bonus. That's the "(65-27/4)" part, the 65 is my level. Notice the "-27" corresponding to the cutoff for bigger damage bonus. > > I'm not a big fan of modals, however, as I > > have found situations where they are simply wrong in what they would [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Well, +atk has an effect, but I am not sure what, and I don't think anyone > has exact formulae on that. An exact formula is probably close to impossible unless you've actually got access to the formulas through the code. > Haste will have the same effect on both weapons, being multiplicative in > any DPS equation, and can safely be ignored(except of course with stuff > like the Velium Swiftblade, in which case it obviously can only be in > effect for one of the weapons) With the way EQ handles rounding of numbers that isn't entirely true, but it's a good rule of thumb. > > For > > instance, the REBB and mithril shod staff. The REBB puts out better > > damage in my hands, but put the mithril shod in the hands of someone > > with 2k+ atk and it will outperform the REBB. > > Interesting... What are the stats on those two weapons? REBB = 42/28 Mithril Shod = 33/20 > <clintlac@bellsouth.net> wrote: >> Anyone knbow the formula for determining dps, without damage bonus? I [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > damage/delay instead of delay/damage to get a number that more people > will be familiar with). Actually for comparing weapons of the same type, look at (damage*2+ 1)/delay. Better yet, get your damage bonus for each weapon you want to compare, and look at (damage*2+bonus)/delay. For comparing a 2 hander to two 1 handers, look at (damage*2+bonus)/delay for the 2 hander, and (damage*2+bonus)/delay for the main hand one hander, and (damage*2+1)/delay (might just be damage*2/delay) for the off hand weapon. Next you have to figure out how often you will get a successful dual wield attack with the off hand weapon, and adjust the value of the off hand weapon appropriately. At level 65: Stone Etched War Sword, 2 hand slash, 45/30 would be (90+36)/30 = 4.2 Ornate Greatblade, 2 hand slash, 35/23 would be (70+14)/23 = 3.65 The Sword of Ssraeshza, 2 hand slash, 52/42 would be (104+42)/42 = 3.48 Whereas calculated your way, 45/30=1.5, 35/23=1.52, 52/42=1.24, which would imply that the OGB is the better weapon of the three, which is actually true up to about level 45, after which the greater damage bonus of the SEWS overtakes the better ratio of the OGB. > Anyone who has played a melee to high levels will look at the "DPS" > figures for stone etched warblade compared to ornate greatblade and > laugh. A weapon with a better ratio *and* an actual damage bonus is > rated at less "DPS" than a weapon with worse ratio and minimal damage > bonus. Not bloody likely. The OGB has a better ratio than the SEWS actually, only slightly so, but better, if you only look at the rated damage vs delay. SignatureOn Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr> Venerable Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Prophet of 65 seasons Tainniel Fleabane, Halfling Warrior of 30 seasons Giluven, Wood Elf Druid of 25 seasons Graeniel, High Elf Enchanter of 25 seasons On Test Emgraeme, Gnome Wizard of 25 seasons <RichardRapier@netscape.net> wrote: > > <clintlac@bellsouth.net> wrote: > >> Anyone knbow the formula for determining dps, without damage bonus? I [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > true up to about level 45, after which the greater damage bonus of the SEWS > overtakes the better ratio of the OGB. That's the common sense part of my method, realizing that damage bonus actually does something. :) > > Anyone who has played a melee to high levels will look at the "DPS" > > figures for stone etched warblade compared to ornate greatblade and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > The OGB has a better ratio than the SEWS actually, only slightly so, but > better, if you only look at the rated damage vs delay. I shouldn't do math in my head. :) It was close enough ratio that the damage bonus was obviously going to come into play. >Anyone who has played a melee to high levels will look at the "DPS" figures >for stone etched warblade compared to ornate greatblade and laugh. A weapon >with a better ratio *and* an actual damage bonus is rated at less "DPS" than >a weapon with worse ratio and minimal damage bonus. Not bloody likely. Given that one is a two hander with over 28 delay and the other one is under, I wouldn't be too sure about that. <FrankE@hotmail.com> wrote: > >Anyone who has played a melee to high levels will look at the "DPS" figures > >for stone etched warblade compared to ornate greatblade and laugh. A weapon [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Given that one is a two hander with over 28 delay and the other one is > under, I wouldn't be too sure about that. Which did you think I was saying was better? >> Given that one is a two hander with over 28 delay and the other one is >> under, I wouldn't be too sure about that. > >Which did you think I was saying was better? The wrong one? :p <FrankE@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> Given that one is a two hander with over 28 delay and the other one is > >> under, I wouldn't be too sure about that. > > > >Which did you think I was saying was better? > > The wrong one? :p So you think that the ornate great blade is the better weapon? I think it's you who has picked the wrong one. >So you think that the ornate great blade is the better weapon? > >I think it's you who has picked the wrong one. ***** wooooosh ***** : >So you think that the ornate great blade is the better weapon? : > : >I think it's you who has picked the wrong one. : : ***** wooooosh ***** I hope he ducked. <FrankE@hotmail.com> wrote: > >So you think that the ornate great blade is the better weapon? > > > >I think it's you who has picked the wrong one. > > ***** wooooosh ***** You don't actually have anything to say here do you? Guess that's what it's like when you toss random comments into a discussion without actually reading or comprehending that discussion. :P > >Anyone who has played a melee to high levels will look at the "DPS" figures > >for stone etched warblade compared to ornate greatblade and laugh. A weapon [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Given that one is a two hander with over 28 delay and the other one is > under, I wouldn't be too sure about that. Always compute the magic numbers, no matter what your gut tells you. The senior knights in guild were horrified when they saw that the Crow Footed Lance (32/20, DB = 14) that they'd been passing over outdamaged their old Swords of Ssraeshza (52/42, DB = 42). MN for CFL = 39, for Ssra = 34.8. They'd also been passing on the Ornate Greatblade, aka "that twink sword", even though it too has a higher MN (36.5). Oops! James > Always compute the magic numbers, no matter what your gut tells you. I have enough trouble keeping up with EQ stuff that does concern me, and potential weapons damage doesn't fall into that category for a shaman <g>. I guess I do need to start thinking about it though, now that my ranger is about to hit 50th lvl. Rgds, Frank > Anyone knbow the formula for determining dps, without damage bonus? I > can't figure the relationship: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > What is the common denominator? Probably obvious, but I dont see it. (Damage x 2 + 1)/(Delay/10) With damage bonus, substitute your damage bonus with the weapon in question for the "1". SignatureOn Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr> Venerable Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Prophet of 65 seasons Tainniel Fleabane, Halfling Warrior of 30 seasons Giluven, Wood Elf Druid of 25 seasons Graeniel, High Elf Enchanter of 25 seasons On Test Emgraeme, Gnome Wizard of 25 seasons <RichardRapier@netscape.net> wrote: > > Anyone knbow the formula for determining dps, without damage bonus? I > > can't figure the relationship: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > With damage bonus, substitute your damage bonus with the weapon in question > for the "1". Ahh, so it does have a spot for damage bonus. That at least gives it some connection to reality. I wouldn't attach "DPS" to the resulting figure, though, as that's more than slightly misleading. ><RichardRapier@netscape.net> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >connection to reality. I wouldn't attach "DPS" to the resulting figure, >though, as that's more than slightly misleading. Thanks for the reply's guys..Lots of good info. Why I care? Inate curiosity 10/10 ;) I swing two of the three I cited as examples, so, I guess I am semi "high end game" I am well aware of the situational advantages/disadvantages of both. Always trying to understand things... |
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