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Game Forum / Role Playing Games / Diablo / February 2006Something stinks here
OK, before I go on this here rant, let me preface it by saying that there are VERY few things in the world with which I have less patience than I do with conspiracy theorists. I cannot abide people who see conspiracies in everything that happens, especially when to support their theory they need to assume so many things when a simple solution presents itself. OK, now one to my rant. Recent discussing in these 2 NGs have caused me to really go through he list of rune words. The longer one looks at these, the more one plays this game, the more one is constantly forced into a single conclusion. There are at least SIX rune words which simply could NEVER be made, in a legitimate environment, during one ladder season. The odds that one person could collect either the runes needed or items to trade for the runes needed are simply beyond all mathematical computation. I mean, in a REAL and LEGIT environment, what item would trade for a BER rune? A LO rune? A JAH rune? What chance on earth is there that the same player would, in one ladder season, would find a MAL (OK, this one you MIGHT find), a BER (6 years, countless THOUSANDS of hours of play, all the 99s, all the 90+ chars, I have NEVER seen one) and three... yes I said THREE!!!! JAH runes? The answer is, not a chance on earth. If every human on earth played Diablo 10 hours a day, and if a ladder season lasted 3 years, the odd of one person amassing the runes for Last Wish is virtually ZERO. Now that leads us to the next question. Why are these rune words in the game? If it is impossible for anyone to legitimately make Last Wish, Phoenix, Infinity, et al. why are they in the game? I have racked my brain over this for 3 days now, and no matter how I look at it, no matter what spin I put on it, not matter how long I try to bend the facts, it all keeps coming back to one conclusion. Blizzard not only KNOWS there will be duped runes, but some of the people there are involved. Some person (or more likely people) at Blizzard have a vested interest, namely in some of those websites that are constantly spamming us on bnet. Once one accepts that premise, look at all the questions that get answered: 1. Why can't Blizzard stop the duping 2. Why can't they stop the spamming in public channels 3. Why can't they stop in game spamming 4. Why did they allow those hacked and duped items to exist for SO long All of these can be explained by ONE answer, if that answer is to assume they are profiting from it. Those who have studied science and logic know of Occam's Razor, and this is as good an example of that as I have ever seen. You can try to come up with 200 different reasons for the above, or just one that answers it all. The worst part is, I HATE the fact that this is where logic has taken me, as I said, conspiracy theories disgust me, I am simply at a complete and total loss to explain what I see in any other way. Mickey Yup, I'm buying. Makes perfect sense to me. Add in the fact that you know for sure that the duping could be stopped, and have yourself sent them at least three suggestions for doing so, and it makes a pretty strong case. If your accounts mysteriously get hacked tomorrow, we'll know you're right. CC > Yup, I'm buying. Makes perfect sense to me. Add in the fact that you > know for sure that the duping could be stopped, and have yourself sent > them at least three suggestions for doing so, and it makes a pretty > strong case. Hmm, well actually that's the part where the theory falls down for me. Using the same principle of Occam's Razor, duping seems like a convoluted way of going about creating items for sale for a Blizzard employee. A Blizzard coder could come up with any number of simpler ways to create legitimate items on the realms (covertly), without the unnecessary side effects of the duping. >> Yup, I'm buying. Makes perfect sense to me. Add in the fact that you >> know for sure that the duping could be stopped, and have yourself sent [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > ways to create legitimate items on the realms (covertly), without the > unnecessary side effects of the duping. I disagree wholeheartedly. There is no way creating the odd item here or there could begin to compare with the over 30 websites dedicated to selling dupes and botted items. These people are churning out tens of THOUSANDS of duped runes. And don't get me started on bots. The 'trap' for bots is nothing but a false front for the masses to consume. Does anyone REALLY think that Blizzard cannot tell whether a user is coming and going from normal mode games? The fact that you can get IP banned for jumping in and out of a normal mode muling game is just for show. Are we to believe that Blizzard thinks someone is running a bot to farm items from Act 1 normal mode? Please!!!! Mickey > >> Yup, I'm buying. Makes perfect sense to me. Add in the fact that you > >> know for sure that the duping could be stopped, and have yourself sent [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > dupes and botted items. These people are churning out tens of THOUSANDS of > duped runes. We'll have to agree to disagree I think. In my opinion, a game coder could find a far simpler way than the current duping to create as many _legit_ items as he wanted. >> >> Yup, I'm buying. Makes perfect sense to me. Add in the fact that you >> >> know for sure that the duping could be stopped, and have yourself sent [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > could find a far simpler way than the current duping to create as many > _legit_ items as he wanted. Which items? Which item could be created en masse that would have the same appeal as say an UM or IST rune? Mickey >> We'll have to agree to disagree I think. In my opinion, a game coder >> could find a far simpler way than the current duping to create as many >> _legit_ items as he wanted. > >Which items? Which item could be created en masse that would have the same >appeal as say an UM or IST rune? I think he means for one thing that they could have implemented a far simpler way to make Um or Ist runes with unique item-ids instead of duping them. And as for alternatives for runes, perfect facets are nice and compact trade-fodder. Or 40/15 jewels, 15ra/2ndmod jewels, or a life/11res-something SC. Or a 5ra/20life sc, or a 3/20/20. ;) Or how about a Legit 35/13 skin of the Vipermagi with a unique item-id? Regards, Patrick. >>> We'll have to agree to disagree I think. In my opinion, a game coder >>> could find a far simpler way than the current duping to create as many [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > simpler way to make Um or Ist runes with unique item-ids instead of duping > them. Which would them be accessible to all of us and take away their advantage. > And as for alternatives for runes, perfect facets are nice and compact > trade-fodder. Or 40/15 jewels, 15ra/2ndmod jewels, or a > life/11res-something SC. Or a 5ra/20life sc, or a 3/20/20. ;) > > Or how about a Legit 35/13 skin of the Vipermagi with a unique item-id? Again, this simply fails the needs test. Yes, a viper is nice.... but not on your barbarian. Yes, a 40/15 Jewel is nice, but not on your sorceress. Runes are the one item type that everyone wants regardless of character. All that having beed said, until someone can show me how, in ONE ladder season, any one player, or for that matter any one team of players could amass the runes for Last Wish, I will continue to believe that the intent here was to sell duped runes. Mickey >> I think he means for one thing that they could have implemented a far >> simpler way to make Um or Ist runes with unique item-ids instead of duping >> them. > >Which would them be accessible to all of us and take away their advantage. Why? Perhaps you'd have to type in a certain message on Battle.Net, a key-phrase or code-word, and then the item would be dropped by some NPC. This would _NOT_ work for anyone with access to the ingredients for duping which were hinted at in recent postings here (Strafe Ama with torch, etc.) Really, if you have access to the server-side code, anything's possible of course. The question is, would this be more or less detectable than duping methods? >> And as for alternatives for runes, perfect facets are nice and compact >> trade-fodder. Or 40/15 jewels, 15ra/2ndmod jewels, or a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >your barbarian. Yes, a 40/15 Jewel is nice, but not on your sorceress. Runes >are the one item type that everyone wants regardless of character. 3/20/20's trade for multiple HRs. So this way you only have to dupe/create 1 1x1 sized item, and get back multiple HR's. >All that having beed said, until someone can show me how, in ONE ladder >season, any one player, or for that matter any one team of players could >amass the runes for Last Wish, I will continue to believe that the intent >here was to sell duped runes. No comment. Regards, Patrick. >>> I think he means for one thing that they could have implemented a far >>> simpler way to make Um or Ist runes with unique item-ids instead of [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > course. The question is, would this be more or less detectable than duping > methods? With the millions of games on going, it would be long before someone typed it in by mistake. And once that happened, the ruse would be exposed and Blizzard would have their a.s in a sling. This is one thing no one can ever really prove. >>> And as for alternatives for runes, perfect facets are nice and compact >>> trade-fodder. Or 40/15 jewels, 15ra/2ndmod jewels, or a [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > 3/20/20's trade for multiple HRs. So this way you only have to dupe/create > 1 1x1 sized item, and get back multiple HR's. Only because HRs are duped to death. I remember when that same charm traded for a PUL, when runes were legit, >>All that having beed said, until someone can show me how, in ONE ladder >>season, any one player, or for that matter any one team of players could >>amass the runes for Last Wish, I will continue to believe that the intent >>here was to sell duped runes. > > No comment. :))) Mickey > Only because HRs are duped to death. I remember when that same charm > traded for a PUL, when runes were legit, When was that--when were runes legit, that is? That's a rhetorical question, BTW, but feel free to answer anyway, because I'm sure that runes were legit for at least a few minutes after they were introduced. :D  Signaturechainbreaker >> Only because HRs are duped to death. I remember when that same charm >> traded for a PUL, when runes were legit, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I'm sure that runes were legit for at least a few minutes after they were > introduced. :D All though 1.09 they were legit. The primary reason for that is that Blizzard had not introduced any rune words that inspired duping. Dupers would dupe 3/20/20 SCs and 40/15 charms, and of course, SOJs. Mickey > All though 1.09 they were legit. No they weren't. Fury was desired for PvP warriors, and PvP players considered Lo's, Zod's, and Chams highly desirable. Of course, maybe all those eth Cruel XXX of Quickness with Lo Lo Zod were all made with legit runes. > Mickey >>>> I think he means for one thing that they could have implemented a far >>>> simpler way to make Um or Ist runes with unique item-ids instead of [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Blizzard would have their a.s in a sling. This is one thing no one can > ever really prove. Hmmmmmmm I agree that blizzards CAD[1] is working almost[2] perfecly, but actually there's no need for blizzardiands to cheat in-game. All they need is a console and the password for the character database. Koile [1] Customer Annoyance Division [2] In the 4th attempt I found the flayers WP before they killed my connetion. >>>>> I think he means for one thing that they could have implemented a far >>>>> simpler way to make Um or Ist runes with unique item-ids instead of [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > there's no need for blizzardiands to cheat in-game. All they need is a > console and the password for the character database. Assumes they are doing it at work, not a claim I made. I suspect this is all being done behind the backs of the PTB at Blizzard, maybe by friends or family of employees. I know of one person connected to Blizzard that is running 70 bots. Mickey > Koile > > [1] Customer Annoyance Division > [2] In the 4th attempt I found the flayers WP before they killed my > connetion. >>> I think he means for one thing that they could have implemented a far >>> simpler way to make Um or Ist runes with unique item-ids instead of duping [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >course. The question is, would this be more or less detectable than duping >methods? [...] It would probably be a lot easier to build an independent server machine with the server-side code on it. Modify that to mass-produce the stuff you want, then rig the gateway servers to let you log into your own machine from a legitimate account. Log in, take stuff, log out, go trade on bnet, repeat. Might take as little as telnetting a command to the gateway servers, "Hey, here's the ip of another server machine." And with no code modifications on bliz's official bnet machines. Bliz would, or should, have records of that activity, but it's easy enough to erase on the off chance somebody decides to investigate. Or just set things up to not log that sort of thing. Perhaps all of those failed game creations that happen are the gateways trying to put legitimate players onto third-party servers. This is all a guess, but it's how I would do it if I had no morals and liked taking money from little kids. SignatureB.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net > > We'll have to agree to disagree I think. In my opinion, a game coder > > could find a far simpler way than the current duping to create as many > > _legit_ items as he wanted. > > Which items? Which item could be created en masse that would have the same > appeal as say an UM or IST rune? Patrick already answered this, but I when I say items, I mean anything that can drop in the game, runes included. I wasn't talking about which item in particular, just the method in question. Put simply, if I were a Blizzard coder and wanted to make money on the side as you imply, I would have coded a much simpler and less noticeable method of amassing items to sell, than the current dupe method. But maybe I'm stupid and that's why I'm not a Blizzard game coder ;-) >> > We'll have to agree to disagree I think. In my opinion, a game coder >> > could find a far simpler way than the current duping to create as many [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > items to sell, than the current dupe method. But maybe I'm stupid and > that's why I'm not a Blizzard game coder ;-) Simpler? What could be easier that taking on rune and making 200 out of it in a second flat? I take it you never saw the 1.09 SOJ fountain running? I did. I saw a character in a game spewing SOJs until every square inch of the Rogue Encampment was filled with them. Back then, they sold for about $1 each or in bulk for $70/100. In 1 minute, 2000 SOJs were created, all without item IDs. That's $1400 in 2 minnutes, or $700 in a minute, or $42,000/hour. Not enough for you? Mickey > >> > We'll have to agree to disagree I think. In my opinion, a game coder > >> > could find a far simpler way than the current duping to create as many [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Simpler? What could be easier that taking on rune and making 200 out of it > in a second flat? The point is, it's not a second flat. I'm only talking about 1.11b here. The duping method I saw required desynching the servers using a, while not overly complicated, pointless exercise that required equipment to do it in the first place. Besides that fact, you also need to find the item you want to dupe in the first place. Not trivial. Also.. once you have it, you can only double the numbers each time. Of course, it's exponential so it will quickly mount up, but still to me it seems like a pointless waste of time and energy if all your end aim is, is to have these items to sell and you have access to the source code in the first place. A coder could quite simply add something into the game where at will, an account was added to the server with any runes (any items I mean) he wanted, in literally a few seconds, with none of the desynching crap needed. All I'm saying is that if I was immoral and wanted to create items to sell, that's the way I would have done it. Far far simpler than the duping method. I will however concede that _if_ the game coders are involved, just the fact that the method is so obviously "complicated" compared to what they could have achieved, that it points away from them, thus potentially providing a good cover. That sounds like a BIG stretch to me. But as I said, just my opinion. >> >> > We'll have to agree to disagree I think. In my opinion, a game coder >> >> > could find a far simpler way than the current duping to create as [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > potentially providing a good cover. That sounds like a BIG stretch to > me. But as I said, just my opinion. That's the one you saw. I know one that takes but a second to do. I could do into a game with an UM rune and a topaz and make ISTs by the boatload. Mickey [...] > > I will however concede that _if_ the game coders are involved, just the > > fact that the method is so obviously "complicated" compared to what [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > That's the one you saw. I know one that takes but a second to do. I could do > into a game with an UM rune and a topaz and make ISTs by the boatload. Ah sorry, I didn't realise there was some other way. I'm not too interested either, I just wish _any_ duping method would go *poof* :-) > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Ah sorry, I didn't realise there was some other way. I'm not too > interested either, I just wish _any_ duping method would go *poof* :-) As do I. The duping of runes could be stopped with ONE very very simple change. The way they get away with it now is that they do not trade/sell the duped rune, they cube it up. Once that happens, the software assigns a new, unique item ID and any hope of detecting it as a dupe vanishes. However, there is a quite simply algorithm that I worked out that will, if given the same runes in the cube produce a new rune with the same ID. Now if I take the 2 UM runes and make 100 UM runes and cube them up to 50 MAL runes, every MAL rune will have the same ID and a ruststorm can wax them. Mickey > > >> > We'll have to agree to disagree I think. In my opinion, a game coder > > >> > could find a far simpler way than the current duping to create as many [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > potentially providing a good cover. That sounds like a BIG stretch to > me. But as I said, just my opinion. I think your hitting the nail on the head here. Why I'm not sure about specifics, I'm fairly sure it would be illegal for bliz employees to use a method that you have described. Essentially, if it was in the game code, it would be Blizzard officially violating its own user agreement. At the very least, discovery of such a thing would probably cost whoever was doing it their job. I don't buy Mickey's theory that Blizzard is behind a conspiracy. I think its more likely its just the people in charge of Diablo allowing certain exploits to continue in order to make some money on the side from home. I highly doubt it would continue if higher level management actually had proof it was going on. Its bad PR, potentially illegal, and its not making Bliz any money. >> > >> > We'll have to agree to disagree I think. In my opinion, a game > coder [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > it was going on. Its bad PR, potentially illegal, and its not making Bliz > any money. And the logic behind a rune word that requires JAH JAH JAH BER MAL would be? In any case, I did not say it was a Blizzard conspiracy, I think it is a few coders who have found a way to make a fortune. I know one botter who is making $8-12k/month. And that's a botter.... imagine a duper. Mickey > And the logic behind a rune word that requires JAH JAH JAH BER MAL would be? > > In any case, I did not say it was a Blizzard conspiracy, I think it is a few > coders who have found a way to make a fortune. I know one botter who is > making $8-12k/month. And that's a botter.... imagine a duper. A botter is someone using programs (bots) to play the game to collect items, right? He then sells the found items. And he is making $8-12k per month?? How many items does he sell? What items does he sell? Is there someone out there who is willing to spend, say, $10 for a Tyrael's Might? Or even more? Does he sell them via ebay, trade forums, ...? I can't believe it. *shakes head* CA >> And the logic behind a rune word that requires JAH JAH JAH BER MAL would > be? [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > *shakes head* They do not sell them directly, they supply the items and tunes to the 9,243,126 websites that you get spammed with on battle net. Tyrael's Might, btw goes for $40. Mickey > They do not sell them directly, they supply the items and tunes to the > 9,243,126 websites that you get spammed with on battle net. Tyrael's Might, > btw goes for $40. Do you know other prices? What's the most expensive item? Make it a top-ten list! What are the top-ten most wanted items in the game? What are the most wanted items character-wise (the average amazon will surely want a bow more than sword, for example)? Spare runes, everyone wants them. CA >> They do not sell them directly, they supply the items and tunes to the >> 9,243,126 websites that you get spammed with on battle net. Tyrael's [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > more > than sword, for example)? Spare runes, everyone wants them. A lot of that depends on the site. For example, d2items has bramble armors at $39.99 and pally torches at $34.99. Suffice it to say they are bringing in thousands of dollars a day. Mickey >>> They do not sell them directly, they supply the items and tunes to >>> the 9,243,126 websites that you get spammed with on battle net. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Mickey What's amazing is a game this old still has such a devoted player base. It's no wonder Blizzard hasn't made a D3 yet. Why should they bother? Signaturechainbreaker >>>> They do not sell them directly, they supply the items and tunes to >>>> the 9,243,126 websites that you get spammed with on battle net. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > What's amazing is a game this old still has such a devoted player base. > It's no wonder Blizzard hasn't made a D3 yet. Why should they bother? Because it can only go so long. You keep feeding the cats, they will keep coming to your door. Mickey >> What's amazing is a game this old still has such a devoted player >> base. It's no wonder Blizzard hasn't made a D3 yet. Why should they [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Mickey What I meant to say was something along the lines of "why should they have bothered before now?" It still amazes me that the world isn't full of mindreaders who can't automagically grasp everything I *meant* to say, lol. Signaturechainbreaker-and who also don't automagically recognize how charming, witty, and intelligent, too >>> What's amazing is a game this old still has such a devoted player >>> base. It's no wonder Blizzard hasn't made a D3 yet. Why should they [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > It still amazes me that the world isn't full of mindreaders who can't > automagically grasp everything I *meant* to say, lol. It's frustrating when people reply to what I say and not what I mean.... Mickey >> What I meant to say was something along the lines of "why should >> they have bothered before now?" [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > mean.... > Mickey I've noticed the same damn thing . . . now if we could just figger out what causes it . . . and give them something to cure it . . . . Signaturechainbreaker >>> What I meant to say was something along the lines of "why should they >>> have bothered before now?" [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I've noticed the same damn thing . . . now if we could just figger out > what causes it . . . and give them something to cure it . . . . Y'all need one of them aluminum foil hats... Signature"Because all you of Earth are idiots!" ¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·-> freemont© <-·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯ >>>> What I meant to say was something along the lines of "why should they >>>> have bothered before now?" [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Y'all need one of them aluminum foil hats... I tried that. I put it on them and they still don't get it.... Mickey >>>> Yup, I'm buying. Makes perfect sense to me. Add in the fact that >>>> you know for sure that the duping could be stopped, and have [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > could find a far simpler way than the current duping to create as many > _legit_ items as he wanted. And by doing so prove that it was being done by an insider. Signature~misfit~ > > We'll have to agree to disagree I think. In my opinion, a game coder > > could find a far simpler way than the current duping to create as many > > _legit_ items as he wanted. > > And by doing so prove that it was being done by an insider. *shrug* I'm sure with a bit of thought I could come up with a simpler way that didn't prove anything. Anyway, I've stated my opinion, we'll just agree to disagree. >>> We'll have to agree to disagree I think. In my opinion, a game coder >>> could find a far simpler way than the current duping to create as [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Anyway, I've stated my opinion, we'll just agree to disagree. Sure. :-) Signature~misfit~ >> > We'll have to agree to disagree I think. In my opinion, a game coder >> > could find a far simpler way than the current duping to create as many [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Anyway, I've stated my opinion, we'll just agree to disagree. Yes, you have stated your opinion, albeit without anything to support it other than "well, that's what I think". You have yet to explain the why behind the rune words that CANNOT EVER BE MADE LEGITIMATELY other than to say "well, I disagree". Now this may constitute rational debate where you come from, where I come from it is simply an unfounded opinion with nothing behind it but words. I didn't just post some crackpot idea and walk away, I supplied a specific reason for my thoughts, and as yet you have posted nothing to contradict by reasons, only my conclusion. Bad form all around. Mickey > Yes, you have stated your opinion, albeit without anything to support it > other than "well, that's what I think". You have yet to explain the why [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > supplied a specific reason for my thoughts, and as yet you have posted > nothing to contradict by reasons, only my conclusion. Bad form all around. I'm sorry about that. I didn't really want to go on about it. Anyway I can only guess that Blizzard made the runewords with the intention that they would be the next "godly" items, to which a few would aspire if they wanted. Nevermind their stats, I'm not saying they are "godly" or not, just that it provided a new challenge for people to possibly aspire to. They probably thought they had the duping issue licked, but as we now see, it wasn't. I don't have facts to support that opinion, it just seems a reasonable viewpoint to me. It's not something I believe strongly either way, and with proof I'll happily admit I'm wrong. Your argument doesn't convince me, but it convinces many others. No offence, people disagree all the time. I mean, my one friend doesn't like beer. I think he's a weirdo but he's still my friend :-) >> Yes, you have stated your opinion, albeit without anything to support it >> other than "well, that's what I think". You have yet to explain the why [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > aspire to. They probably thought they had the duping issue licked, but > as we now see, it wasn't. Few? Again I will state clearly that it is simply IMPOSSIBLE for ONE Last Wish to be made on any ladder, on any realm, in one season, legitimately. If you can post numbers to refute this, by all means do so, we'd all love to see it. Until such time, I will stand by my assertion that they are items that can ONLY be made by duping runes. > I don't have facts to support that opinion, it just seems a reasonable > viewpoint to me. It's not something I believe strongly either way, and > with proof I'll happily admit I'm wrong. Your argument doesn't convince > me, but it convinces many others. No offence, people disagree all the > time. I mean, my one friend doesn't like beer. I think he's a weirdo > but he's still my friend :-) Reasonable? I see nothing really reasonable in making an assertion that fails every numeric test. Until you can show us, in hard numbers, how ANYONE can make a Last wish (or even a Phoenix for that matter) legitimately, you have offered us nothing but a completely unfounded opinion. I'm not trying to be a pain here or to start a war with you, I am a person driven by logic and numbers, and all the numbers simply do not come up in favor of your perspective. Mickey > > I'm sorry about that. I didn't really want to go on about it. Anyway I > > can only guess that Blizzard made the runewords with the intention that [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > and numbers, and all the numbers simply do not come up in favor of your > perspective. Ok. The runes for last wish are Jah + Mal + Jah + Sur + Jah + Ber. That's 5 high runes and one that is semi easily obtainable through the Hell forge. I got a Gul rune on my first Hell Forge quest this ladder. I don't expect any idividual to find all the runes for Last Wish, not a chance as you have stated. But I do expect the runes for Last Wish to have been found many times over on the current ladder. How many high runes did you say you've found this ladder? 1 or was it 2? I can't recall. Anyway, you play a lot, so that's unusual. I don't expect to find a high rune but I do expect that people like yourself and countless others will find legit high runes. Ok, so in the scenario that I (or someone else) find a high rune, and in a perfect world where this is no duping (since that's the crux of the argument), what am I going to with one high rune? Not much. I could possibly hope for another, or hope to trade for another and make one runeword. But a much better option for me, who hasn't got a lot of other great gear, is to find someone who has decided they have enough of the standard elite gear, but wants to make say Last Wish. So great, I trade my high rune for some gear that is really useful for me. Suddenly the player in question loses out on a Stormlash or HoZ or whatever, but he has one more high rune on his way to Last Wish. Let's say he has already found one of the runes himself (which you admit is not impossible). He just needs 3 more such trades and bingo, he has his Last Wish. I don't believe that less than 5 legit high runes have been found by everyone in one ladder season. In fact as I say, all the runes for Last Wish have probably been found legitmately many times over. So, a challenge, yes, but impossible, no way. >> > I'm sorry about that. I didn't really want to go on about it. Anyway I >> > can only guess that Blizzard made the runewords with the intention that [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > Wish have probably been found legitmately many times over. So, a > challenge, yes, but impossible, no way. Now this is as irrelevant as saying that because someone hits the lottery every week, then it is a good idea for me to play it. So the runes will be found... great, how does ONE player get them? What items would, in a legitimate environment, trade for a JAH? For a BER? And how would ONE player manage to get FOUR of those items to trade for those runes? OK, let's say he's a VERY lucky player, and not only got a MAL from the forge but found a JAH. That means he still needs to trade for 2 JAH and a BER. On the first 1.10 ladder, I had 6 kids MFing all summer long, and I would have been hard pressed, in a legitimate environment, to come up with a package to trade for more than one of these. Again, until someone can detail for us how ONE player (not the entire realm, but ONE player) would get his hands on JAH JAH JAH BER MAL, I will stand by my statement that this rune word is not possible EVER, let alone in ONE ladder season. Mickey > > Ok. The runes for last wish are Jah + Mal + Jah + Sur + Jah + Ber. > > That's 5 high runes and one that is semi easily obtainable through the [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > legitimate environment, trade for a JAH? For a BER? And how would ONE player > manage to get FOUR of those items to trade for those runes? Excellent point. Luckily, it turns out we're in a dupe free environment in the hypothetical example above, and it's me that found the rune. I have no use for it, so do you have a Stormlash, a HoZ or say a pair of Draculs and some other stuff for me? Or just make some offers and we can agree on the exact trade. :-) Ok, that was an attempt at humour, but still I think the point is that even in a legitimate environment a player like myself would much rather have some lower but more useful items than a very rare, but useless on it's own high rune. I can envision that trades would happen, and for people such as yourself who find a LOT of stuff, selling it for high runes is doable. It seems reasonable to me, but then we don't know because we're not in that hypothetical environment. > Again, until someone can detail for us how ONE > player (not the entire realm, but ONE player) would get his hands on JAH JAH > JAH BER MAL, I will stand by my statement that this rune word is not > possible EVER, let alone in ONE ladder season. Unfortunately, we will never know. You can't prove your statement and no-one can ever disprove it because we don't have a dupe free realm to test it on. I think it's within the realms of possiblity to trade for the runes as I stated above, but then you've been playing a LOT longer than I have, so I could easily be mistaken. But one thing that can be done is a probability model can be created using hours of playing time and farming specific areas with the intention of finding these specific runes. As for the precision of the model I am sure that some type of confidence interval coudl be created, but given that the probability would be so very small even the confidence interval is not going to improve the expected amount of time.games etc that would be neded. We could even be conservative in a liberal direction (heh!) and that probably would not change the expectation by that much. Let's see a JAH, that is Act 4 hell runeword if I recall (act 5 also) , with a few exceptions or maybe one that being that I think hell mepf could also drop it. So where do we begin the farming? Orion > So where do we begin the farming? I always use d2data.net for these questions - you just select the item you want, and it gives you a nice little table of exactly who can drop it, in order of decreasing probability. Almost any HR can drop almost anywhere in Hell, if you don't mind probabilities of 0.00000000001% or so. The site hasn't been updated to 1.11, but I don't know if they changed any TCs or drops (other than the Countess). CC Thanks but I have to say that I don't trust those drop calculators, well maybe I do, but only as far as I can throw them and how does one grab and throw program code and I don't mean the paper it is written on. I prefer to take the files and dig through them with my friend Caal, another probability utilizer like myself and we validate or invalidate each other's computations. We mostly validate as we tend to come up with the same results most of the time. We use the Jarulf methods in whatever that dissertation is that is out there on the web somewhere that Caal obtained for us. And it would not necessarily be probabilities that we are trying to calculate here. It would be more like a model to deteremine the expected number of hours that one player would have to play to amass the godly items in question, as well as a team of more than one wasting their,... uh excuse me, I mean playing their time away in hopes of getting them. Thanks mag, (Oh god now I am prolly gonna get yelled at by someone about truncating yoru name to 3 letters liek I did that time I truncated that European's name to 4 letters. (I forget the name) Orion > Thanks but I have to say that I don't trust those drop calculators, > well maybe I do, but only as far as I can throw them and how does one [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > yoru name to 3 letters liek I did that time I truncated that European's > name to 4 letters. (I forget the name) Not to worry, I'm easy (it's, er, not my real name). I'm interested in your probability computations though. Can you post a link to Jarulf's dissertation, or send me a copy? I like the drop calculators because I'm lazy - and I don't play at consistent speed, so measures of time required are less use to me. I just want to know the % chance that a given drop is going to be the item I want, and that's enough. Even the actual % number isn't important, it's only whether it is bigger for Meph than for Andy, etc. CC > But one thing that can be done is a probability model can be created > using hours of playing time and farming specific areas with the [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > So where do we begin the farming? Given that I have WELL over 10,000 hours of playing logged and given that I have: A: Never seen a JAH rune B: Had exactly ONE chance to trade for one, dispite the ENORMOUS wealth of items I had on the first 1.10 ladder Then I will once again stick to my assersion that no one person could collect all the runes for this word in a legitimate envirnoment, either by finding them for trading for them. Mickey >> But one thing that can be done is a probability model can be created >> using hours of playing time and farming specific areas with the [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > >Mickey Top this off with the fact that there are people like me out there who will not trade my "uber" item/rune for anything. In a legit Diablo world, I just can't see myself trading my Jah (if I ever find one) for any number of items because I would want to be able to use the rune myself. I'm the same person who refuses to trade 1 of 6 self found SOJs. I've been offered many uber items for the ring but I just haven't seen any other items out there that I'm willing to trade it for. I play non-ladder and have been offered BotDs for my crappy Insight sticks and I flat out refused. I'm assuming I am not alone in this thinking. Now given this way of thinking, I'm with Mickey. It simply is impossible for anyone to make Last Wish in a single ladder season. Alan SignatureUSWest - SonofJorEl2-9 Non-Ladder SC No animals were harmed while writing this, although the cat in heat next door is living on borrowed time, let me tell you. >>> But one thing that can be done is a probability model can be created >>> using hours of playing time and farming specific areas with the [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > Now given this way of thinking, I'm with Mickey. It simply is > impossible for anyone to make Last Wish in a single ladder season. Yes, that is very true also. Sometimes, you won't trade an item just because YOU found it, and you want to look at it. Hell, that's why they MAKE trophies :) Mickey >> > Ok. The runes for last wish are Jah + Mal + Jah + Sur + Jah + Ber. >> > That's 5 high runes and one that is semi easily obtainable through the [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > runes is doable. It seems reasonable to me, but then we don't know > because we're not in that hypothetical environment. And yet I have never been able to come remotely close to finding enough items to trade for all those runes, especially not in a legit envirnment. And let us remember, I am retired and play about 10 times as much as most people. At the risk of this sounding arrogant, if I can't get there, I simply do not believe ANYONE can. >> Again, until someone can detail for us how ONE >> player (not the entire realm, but ONE player) would get his hands on JAH [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the runes as I stated above, but then you've been playing a LOT longer > than I have, so I could easily be mistaken. And that tells us all we need to know, does it not? The fact that it would NEED to be proved proves the point all on its own. No one NEEDS to prove they can find an UM rune, right? We have all seen one, found one, had one. But more to the point here is the fact that let us assume, for one moment, that you are in some way correct. That someone, somehow, with the luck of the gods smiling upon him found the runes and items to trade for the runes to make Last Wish, and do so in a timeframe that allowed him to actually USE the damn thing before the next reset. Are we to believe that Blizzard created rune words that would be made by ONE person on ONE server on ONE ladder? The logic just collapses under its own weight. Mickey > > Ok, that was an attempt at humour, but still I think the point is that > > even in a legitimate environment a player like myself would much rather [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > people. At the risk of this sounding arrogant, if I can't get there, I > simply do not believe ANYONE can. Ok, point taken, I give up :-) Judging by the amount of items you seem to find, I had assumed that you of all people would be able to trade them up until you could aquire the high runes necessary. The way I saw it, you could trade any mid items for mid runes, then trade several of those runes for higher items etc. You know, standard trading really. If you say you couldn't, I believe you. So let's end it there, before it turns into a flamewar ;-) > Judging by the amount of items you seem to find, I had assumed that > you of all people would be able to trade them up until you could [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > couldn't, I believe you. So let's end it there, before it turns into > a flamewar ;-) The problem is, the only thing that people trading high runes seem to want is other high runes--or cash. There aren't (m)any game-generated items they're interested in at all. Signaturechainbreaker > > Judging by the amount of items you seem to find, I had assumed that > > you of all people would be able to trade them up until you could [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > There aren't (m)any game-generated items they're interested in at all. Yes, now, in the current rune dupe prolific environment. We're talking a hypothetical dupe free environment. >> > Judging by the amount of items you seem to find, I had assumed that >> > you of all people would be able to trade them up until you could [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Yes, now, in the current rune dupe prolific environment. We're talking >a hypothetical dupe free environment. That would just make trading even harder. If you knew that it would be nearly impossible to obtain/find/trade for another high rune, would you really trade your one self found high rune for a Stormlash? Alan SignatureUSWest - SonofJorEl2-9 Non-Ladder SC No animals were harmed while writing this, although the cat in heat next door is living on borrowed time, let me tell you. I think it was Alan Ladd <OnlyALadd68@SPAMyahoo.com> that wrote something like... >>> > Judging by the amount of items you seem to find, I had assumed that >>> > you of all people would be able to trade them up until you could [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >Alan Why not? Better a Stormlash in hand than a high rune in the bush (which you'd need to get to go with the high rune you have in hand to make your uber runeword). Unless you're trying to make the uber rune words, then it's better the last high rune for the uber runeword in hand than a stormlash which isn't the weapon you're wanting to use on the character anyway (assuming it's last wish you're wanting to make). Ashen Shugar SignatureThe lions sing and the hills take flight. The moon by day, and the sun by night. Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool. Let the Lord of Chaos rule! > Why not? Better a Stormlash in hand than a high rune in the bush > (which you'd need to get to go with the high rune you have in hand to > make your uber runeword). Unless you're trying to make the uber rune > words, then it's better the last high rune for the uber runeword in > hand than a stormlash which isn't the weapon you're wanting to use on > the character anyway (assuming it's last wish you're wanting to make). I'm not exactly sure what all that means, except in the end I interpreted it as sort of being another offhand argument favoring the notion that most very high runes are indeed duped/cubed from dupes. :-) Signaturechainbreaker I think it was "chainbreaker" <noone@nowhere.com> that wrote something like... >> Why not? Better a Stormlash in hand than a high rune in the bush >> (which you'd need to get to go with the high rune you have in hand to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >as sort of being another offhand argument favoring the notion that most very >high runes are indeed duped/cubed from dupes. :-) Heheh, no, that was probably my other post you were thinking about. This one was about the idea that some people would prefer high runes over high items and other people high items over high runes in a dupe free environment, and would thus allow the uber runewords to be made legitimately by a few during a ladder season. Ashen Shugar SignatureThe lions sing and the hills take flight. The moon by day, and the sun by night. Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool. Let the Lord of Chaos rule! > I think it was "chainbreaker" <noone@nowhere.com> that wrote something > like... [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Ashen Shugar Well, I knew I was confused. :-) Shoulda just kept quiet, but that's hard for me to do sometimes (mosttimes? alltimes?). Signaturechainbreaker > That would just make trading even harder. If you knew that it would be > nearly impossible to obtain/find/trade for another high rune, would > you really trade your one self found high rune for a Stormlash? Sure, cause the rune by itself(in most cases) is not particularly useful, whereas Stormlash is both rare, usable without needing another specific item, and one of the best PvM weapons in the game. I would socket Um and Cham in end game gear. Outside of the high end runewords, I would not socket any other high rune EXCEPT in one of the items like Stormlash that would trade for it. And a Stormlash without a Lo or Ber is more useful than a Lo or Ber without a Stormlash, so if I have a Lo or Ber and no Stormlash, yes, I'd gladly make that trade. And in the case with Jah, Vex, Gul, it's even moreso, as those runes don't add anything highly desirable by themselves. Same with Zod, as the only thing I'd ever consider socketing it in would be an an incredibly godly eth rare(like a 2 socket 450 ED, 40 IAS, C2C Amp zerker axe) or an eth Stormlash that is about as likely to be found as a Zod to begin with. > Alan >> > Ok, that was an attempt at humour, but still I think the point is that >> > even in a legitimate environment a player like myself would much rather [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > You know, standard trading really. If you say you couldn't, I believe > you. So let's end it there, before it turns into a flamewar ;-) Rational discussion among rational people never degenerates into a flamewar. As to the items, I have had 2 occasions in my life that led to massive quantities of items. The first was the loss of my eldest son at age 21, which was followed by a period where I simply ran down and killed Baal with a 700MF Amazon 150 times a day for 4 months. The second came when 5 of my children decided to compete with each other to see who could find the most, and did so while school was out. The result there was almost beyond belief. Maybe that time, I could have made it to Last Wish, but only with a LOT Of hard work. Mickey I think it was marknewsgroups@yahoo.com that wrote something like... >> > Ok, that was an attempt at humour, but still I think the point is that >> > even in a legitimate environment a player like myself would much rather [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >You know, standard trading really. If you say you couldn't, I believe >you. So let's end it there, before it turns into a flamewar ;-) Personally I'd agree with you more so than Mickey. In a completely dupe free environment I'd expect prices would be a lot more variable. As it is, I would say most of the people playing on battle.net, at least people in public games and willing to trade with strangers, are willing to trade for and use runes that are undoubtedly duped. With everyone in the same market, the prices will stabilize to a degree. When there are no dupes at all, I would expect there to be a few different market places. There'll be the people that will still want the uber high powered runewords and such (probably so they can go PK someone, or win duels or such), and will pay whatever necessary to get them. Then there'll be the people who want to be in the top 100 of the ladder, or want to play variants and such, who upon finding a high rune, and having no real hope of finding others to make a uber runeword, will be willing to trade it for just a few items that will make their character a real killer, if not an uber killer. I mean, if Ber wasn't the only real high rune in Chains of Honor, I would have happily traded the one I found for a Hoz, Shako and Draculs, or some trade like that. I certainly wasn't going to keep it on the off chance I might also find a Jah and so be able to make an Enigma armour. Without duped runes, runes would become less a form of currency and more just another item like tals armour. So far i've found 1 rune each ladder that was higher than a Gul. First is was an Ohm, then a Lo last ladder and a Ber this ladder. I don't think I play all that much either. I just looked and there was a bit over 50,000 diablo 2 players playing at the moment. If we say I'm an average case, then that's 50,000 high runes each ladder (All the people that aren't online at the moment, however many that is, weren't lucky). And that doesn't count the runes that would get cubed up. And of them there would be a few. I forge rushed up a CtA and 2 HotO's last ladder, and I didn't start doing it at the start of the ladder either, though I forget exactly when during the ladder I got my 2nd copy of D2:+LOD. Sure, I made a few Ist+UM for Gul trades, but they'd likely still be quite valid trades in a dupe free environment. People that got gul for their hellforge but weren't interested in cubing up, would be quite happy to have an Ist+Um for it I would expect. So, I would expect Last Wish type runewords would still appear in a dupe free battle.net, but only in certain sections of it. Sure, there'll be less Hammerdins doing tele baal runs, but there'd still be a few of them. Whether Last Wish is worth more than what else could be made with that number of high runes would determine whether many actually got made, but if someone thought it was the best weapon for what they wanted, and they wanted it, then it would get made. All that said, I don't doubt Blizzard came up with those runewords knowing full well they'd be made with duped runes. Ashen Shugar SignatureThe lions sing and the hills take flight. The moon by day, and the sun by night. Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool. Let the Lord of Chaos rule! > would get his hands on JAH JAH JAH BER MAL, I will stand by my > statement that this rune word is not possible EVER, let alone in ONE > ladder season. > Mickey Heh, I found a Lo that I used to make a Fortitude armor a few weeks before my current Hiatus, after 5+ years of a LOT of chest-popping and rock turning. :-) I've never so much as smelled a Jah, Ber, Sur, etc. A lot of those high-powered runewords are so much overkill they're not really necessary anyway, and certainly not worth the trouble/cost, unless maybe somebody's heavy into PvP--but I'd imagine PvP is so full of cheaters anyway, that even those probably don't help much. Signaturechainbreaker >> would get his hands on JAH JAH JAH BER MAL, I will stand by my >> statement that this rune word is not possible EVER, let alone in ONE [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > maybe somebody's heavy into PvP--but I'd imagine PvP is so full of > cheaters anyway, that even those probably don't help much. I also suspect that some of the Blizzard bit heads are PvP players. Mickey > but I'd imagine PvP is so full of cheaters anyway, that even those > probably don't help much. Depends on what you mean by "full of cheaters". If you mean people using duped(well, or likely duped) items, yeah. Maphack used to be a problem, though that one's been solved. These days, the only real cheating would be dupe usage, though dupe users can be beaten with legit gear, so it's no big deal. Mickey , your post to alt.games.diablo is almost better than a suggestion to SIGN CARL ENGLISH! > Now this is as irrelevant as saying that because someone hits the > lottery every week, then it is a good idea for me to play it. So the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > JAH JAH JAH BER MAL, I will stand by my statement that this rune word > is not possible EVER, let alone in ONE ladder season. Well, there was that God charm I found last ladder that I got 40 Ist for. Of course, I cubed all but 7 of them, so who knows how many were legit, but a pally combat 37 life GC is fairly astronomical and not impossible to find legit. , your post to alt.games.diablo is almost better than a suggestion to SIGN CARL ENGLISH! >> > I'm sorry about that. I didn't really want to go on about it. >> > Anyway I can only guess that Blizzard made the runewords with the [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > world where this is no duping (since that's the crux of the argument), > what am I going to with one high rune? Not much. This is where I disagree. Jah can be used in an easily made Fury. Mal is easily obtained and can be used in Oath, among others. Sur is only used in VERY high words: Bramble (needs Ohm) Last Wish, Eternity (needs Ber), HoJ (needs Cham AND Lo), Dragon (Lo) and Pride (Cham AND Lo again). Oh, Wind I suppose, but it blows. Ber goes in Beast, Chains, and Infinity if you ever find 2. "Chris Lansdell <Founder and Sole Member of the Nation of Salivation>" <chris.lansdell@nl.SIGNCARLENGLISH.rogers.com> wrote in message news:Xns9760D712A2DC4xxlpointguardvision@209.210.176.62... > , your post to alt.games.diablo is almost better than a suggestion to > SIGN CARL ENGLISH! [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > (Cham AND Lo again). Oh, Wind I suppose, but it blows. > Ber goes in Beast, Chains, and Infinity if you ever find 2. Not to mention which, the assumption that the bug with the JAH trades it because he can't find a BER and the guy with the BER trades it becuase HE can't find a JAH is just specious. What will happen is that each will sit on his rune trying to trade for the other, just to make Enigma. Mickey I think it was "Mickey" <XXmickeybXX@XXcomcastXX.net> that wrote something like... >"Chris Lansdell <Founder and Sole Member of the Nation of Salivation>" ><chris.lansdell@nl.SIGNCARLENGLISH.rogers.com> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > >Mickey I didn't. I plopped it straight into a CoH. And sure, some people would hold onto it and try and trade for the other to make an enigma. But I believe that others would say "F*ck it", and go for the quick and easy trade to get items that would let them build the characters they wanted to play now, rather than waiting for a future possibility. The high runes aren't only going to drop for people that like wandering around trade games all the time. And despite what it may seem sometime, b.net isn't made up only of brainless twats that couldn't wipe their arse without an eBotD and enigma. ; ) There's enough people playing the game that the runes are going to drop, and enough people playing that some of them are going to trade those runes away from someone useful. Or sell them on E-Bay or such for that matter. At which time brain dead kiddie number one runs up his daddies credit card and makes himself whatever runeword he pleases. Or indeed anyone else that realises the best use for money is for having fun with it. Ashen Shugar SignatureThe lions sing and the hills take flight. The moon by day, and the sun by night. Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool. Let the Lord of Chaos rule! >Not to mention which, the assumption that the bug with the JAH trades it >because he can't find a BER and the guy with the BER trades it becuase HE >can't find a JAH is just specious. What will happen is that each will sit on >his rune trying to trade for the other, just to make Enigma. Step 1 - Hey, you got peanut butter in my chocolate Step 2 - Hey, you got chocolate in my peanut butter Step 3 - Light goes on. "Chris Lansdell <Founder and Sole Member of the Nation of Salivation>" <chris.lansdell@nl.SIGNCARLENGLISH.rogers.com> wrote in message news:Xns9760D712A2DC4xxlpointguardvision@209.210.176.62... > This is where I disagree. > Jah can be used in an easily made Fury. Assuming you also have a Gul, and an assassin or maybe a barb(as at least in my experience, for other builds many weapons that are easire to find than Jah surpass Fury in usefulness). > Mal is easily obtained and can be used in Oath, among others. Yeah, Mal isn't too bad. > Ber goes in Beast, Chains, and Infinity if you ever find 2. Still, Beast would need an Um and a Mal besides the Ber, Infinity would need another Ber, an Ist, AND a Mal, and Chains would still need an Um and an Ist besides the Ber... I think it was "Shiflet" <rshiflet@charter.net> that wrote something like... >"Chris Lansdell <Founder and Sole Member of the Nation of Salivation>" ><chris.lansdell@nl.SIGNCARLENGLISH.rogers.com> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >another Ber, an Ist, AND a Mal, and Chains would still need an Um and an Ist >besides the Ber... Anything gul and below would be relatively easy to get. (Relative to other higher runes at least). If they can't dupe em, people will be forge rushing a lot more I would expect. Ashen Shugar SignatureThe lions sing and the hills take flight. The moon by day, and the sun by night. Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool. Let the Lord of Chaos rule! Shiflet , your post to alt.games.diablo is almost better than a suggestion to SIGN CARL ENGLISH! > "Chris Lansdell <Founder and Sole Member of the Nation of Salivation>" > <chris.lansdell@nl.SIGNCARLENGLISH.rogers.com> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > least in my experience, for other builds many weapons that are easire > to find than Jah surpass Fury in usefulness). For the sake of this discussion, I was considering anything forge-able to be easily obtainable. Most people on this group get get to a4 Hell in a couple of days. Also, Countess runs can be an easy source of mid-level runes (Hel-Um) >> Mal is easily obtained and can be used in Oath, among others. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > would need another Ber, an Ist, AND a Mal, and Chains would still need > an Um and an Ist besides the Ber... See above. Signature"The Lansdellicious One" Chris Lansdell Founder of the Nation of Salivation Mmmmmm Reese Witherspoon :-0~~ [...] >Are we to believe that Blizzard thinks someone >is running a bot to farm items from Act 1 normal mode? Please!!!! Get enough el runes... (: SignatureB.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net > [...] > >>Are we to believe that Blizzard thinks someone >>is running a bot to farm items from Act 1 normal mode? Please!!!! > > Get enough el runes... (: Yeah, 14 billion Mickey B.B. , your post to alt.games.diablo is almost better than a suggestion to SIGN CARL ENGLISH! > [...] > >>Are we to believe that Blizzard thinks someone >>is running a bot to farm items from Act 1 normal mode? Please!!!! > > Get enough el runes... (: Never met my mule CubingToZod, did you? Before the reset, I actually cubed an Ohm. >OK, before I go on this here rant, let me preface it by saying that there >are VERY few things in the world with which I have less patience than I do >with conspiracy theorists. I cannot abide people who see conspiracies in >everything that happens, especially when to support their theory they need >to assume so many things when a simple solution presents itself. [snip] >The worst part is, I HATE the fact that this is where logic has taken me, as >I said, conspiracy theories disgust me, I am simply at a complete and total >loss to explain what I see in any other way. Well, the odds become, I think, less than astronomical if you start doing dedicated Hell Hellforge rushes. Just spend all the time you're spending on doing Countess/Summoner/Nihlatak/Hell Baal runs on rushing mules to the Hell Hellforge, and I think you can cube yourself a Zod in less than the time it takes the universe to die it's Heat-Death. Especially if you can find enough people so you can take 7 mules at a time there... Of course, Diablo 2 wasn't meant to be played like that, but I also don't think the designers intended people to do 24/7 Baal runs. I do agree with your generic point though: it's very difficult to make one of the Uber-runewords by yourself, just playing the game. I've in my total B.Net D2 career found 1 Lo (which I used to make a legit Fortitude with, in the previous ladder). 2nd best was a Vex... Regards, Patrick. >>OK, before I go on this here rant, let me preface it by saying that there >>are VERY few things in the world with which I have less patience than I do [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > B.Net D2 career found 1 Lo (which I used to make a legit Fortitude with, > in the previous ladder). 2nd best was a Vex... I found a ZOD, way back from Baal, an OHM form Bremm and 3 VEX. And that is in well over 10,000 hours of play. Mickey >> I do agree with your generic point though: it's very difficult to make one >> of the Uber-runewords by yourself, just playing the game. I've in my total [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I found a ZOD, way back from Baal, an OHM form Bremm and 3 VEX. And that is >in well over 10,000 hours of play. Have you also logged your Hellforge drops, and what these would cube up to? Regards, Patrick. >>> I do agree with your generic point though: it's very difficult to make >>> one [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Have you also logged your Hellforge drops, and what these would cube up > to? Yes, and I might have been able to get to an Enigma, had they not reset the ladder. Mickey > >>> I do agree with your generic point though: it's very difficult to make > >>> one [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Yes, and I might have been able to get to an Enigma, had they not reset the > ladder. I have found one Jah, and been in game where an Ohm has dropped. That's it. Anyway, let's say we have a dedicated team of players wanting to get legit high runes through hellforges. And they were really really lucky... 7 mules in classic. Rushed by a sorc to hell act 3. Moved over to LoD and then hell and nm hellforges are done. Say that this all takes about 2 hours. Each of the 7 mules gets a Gul and an Um. And one Um is dropped by Hephasto in the 14 times he is killed (7 nm, 7 hell). 8 Ums gets you to 1 Gul. So, in the 2 hours, 8 legit Guls are in the possession of the team. These 8 Guls will get you a LO. We have also assumed that the gems required are dropping. The team is loving it and repeats. Another 2 hours nets them another LO. Let's assume that each 2 hours gets the team a LO. Sur = 2 LOs, BER = 4 LO, JAH = 8 LO. Last Wish can then be broken down into 30 LOs + Mal. That means 60 hours worth of very lucky Classic Hellforge rushing. That's not too bad is it? Actually, given that it's only 30 lucky rushes :), you could probably do LoD hf rushing. The first step is to level up 7 mules to lvl 40 for nm ancients, which wouldn't take too long for a dedicated team with 7 ravens and an enchantress. >> >>> I do agree with your generic point though: it's very difficult to >> >>> make [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > nm ancients, which wouldn't take too long for a dedicated team with 7 > ravens and an enchantress. Yes, so 7 people have to work 30 hours each to get ONE person a rune word? I'll stick to my theory :) Mickey > >> >>> I do agree with your generic point though: it's very difficult to > >> >>> make [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > Yes, so 7 people have to work 30 hours each to get ONE person a rune word? > I'll stick to my theory :) hehe, actually, it depends on how quickly the rush is completed, and the hellforge in nm and hell games completed. I would imagine it would be longer than 30 hours for the 30 rushes. Quickest would probably be four people with 2 accounts each. Not sure how you are set up at home Mickey but you could rush 7 of your own mules this way although just the running around and/or user switching would make it ta |
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