How skill's passive bonuses and +skills work?

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Jamie Kahn Genet - 27 Nov 2005 11:36 GMT

I understand that aside from Prayer, only the points you invest in
skills that grant a passive bonus matter? So basically I'd be better off
maxing LM and FM for a FW/TS sorc, and letting +skills boost FW and TS,
if I don't plan on having the full 20 skill points available for a
skill?

This question arises, of course, because nowadays with passives it's
much harder to spread skill point investments around, and still get a
killer attack. Still, I think I like the way Blizzard has forced players
to balance specialisation with the need to kill monsters immune to any
one attack.

TIA,
Jamie Kahn Genet

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Shiflet - 27 Nov 2005 12:23 GMT

>I understand that aside from Prayer, only the points you invest in
> skills that grant a passive bonus matter?

Uhhh, no...only the skills you invest in SYNERGY skills matter. Synergies
and passives are NOT the same thing.

>: So basically I'd be better off maxing LM and FM for a FW/TS sorc, and
>letting +skills boost FW and TS, if I don't plan on having the full 20
>skill points available for a skill?

No, you'd be better off making the skills themselves, as that will generally
add more damage than an extra point in mastery.

> This question arises, of course, because nowadays with passives it's
> much harder to spread skill point investments around, and still get a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> TIA,
> Jamie Kahn Genet

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Jamie Kahn Genet - 27 Nov 2005 15:22 GMT

> >I understand that aside from Prayer, only the points you invest in
> > skills that grant a passive bonus matter?
>
> Uhhh, no...only the skills you invest in SYNERGY skills matter. Synergies
> and passives are NOT the same thing.

*sigh* However it's clear I meant synergistic skills that grant passive
bonuses to other skills. e.g. Lightening Mastery boosts Thunder Storm,
Warmth boosts Inferno.

> >: So basically I'd be better off maxing LM and FM for a FW/TS Sorc, and
> >letting +skills boost FW and TS, if I don't plan on having the full 20
> >skill points available for a skill?
>
> No, you'd be better off making the skills themselves, as that will generally
> add more damage than an extra point in mastery.

Even if I can use +skills to boost the main skill (e.g. Enchant) to a
respectable level (over 20 at least)? Surely +skills are easier to gain,
and I could save my skill points for synergies that will NOT be boosted
by +skills? I've only a finite number of skill points from leveling, as
do we all.

> > This question arises, of course, because nowadays with passives it's
> > much harder to spread skill point investments around, and still get a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> > TIA,
> > Jamie Kahn Genet

TIA for you help, guys :-)

Regards,
Jamie Kahn Genet"

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Jaakko Raipala - 27 Nov 2005 17:07 GMT

Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> kirjoitti:

>> >I understand that aside from Prayer, only the points you invest in
>> > skills that grant a passive bonus matter?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> bonuses to other skills. e.g. Lightening Mastery boosts Thunder Storm,
> Warmth boosts Inferno.

It's not at all clear what you mean, as you're contradicting yourself.
Lightning Mastery is *not* a synergy of Thunderstorm; any points, even
points gained from skill bonus equipment, in Lightning Mastery
increase the damage of all lightning skills. (This is why skill
boosting items can be such a huge boost for a sorceress: they get a
double bonus from +sorceress skills/+to a tree items, because they
boost both the damage of a skill and the damage bonus of the mastery.)
Warmth, on the other hand, is a synergy of Inferno, which means that
only hard points in Warmth help Inferno; any extra points in Warmth
coming from skill boosting items do nothing for Inferno.

>> No, you'd be better off making the skills themselves, as that will generally
>> add more damage than an extra point in mastery.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> and I could save my skill points for synergies that will NOT be boosted
> by +skills?

YES, because getting BOTH the bonus to the skill and the hard points
in the skill is almost always better than getting bonuses to the skill
and leaving the skill low to pump synergy! (There are only a few
exceptions.) If you have, say, enough equipment for +10 to all skills
and the choice is between 20 + 10 = 30 in the skill the skill bonuses
and 10 base points in a synergy and a 10 + 10 = 20 in the skill and 20
in the synergy, getting the skill up to 30 is almost always MUCH
better. *Especially* with (almost all) sorceress skills you want to
get the skill as high as you can. 20 in the main skill is not a
respectable skill level for a sorceress (well, unless it's a bow
sorceress with some separate casting gear for higher Enchant or
something unusual like that), not even when playing untwinked because
skill bonuses are now trivially easy to get.

> I've only a finite number of skill points from leveling, as do we all.

If you're so short on skill points that you're not maxing your main
skill, you're most likely spreading them so thin that you won't be
able to kill much in Hell. There are only a few builds that want to
pump synergies instead of the skill. In the case of Enchant, if you
want to play in Hell, you want to max it, Warmth *and* Fire Mastery -
that's usually obvious, especially for a pure melee/bow/throwing
sorceress, since there are only a few potential places for the points
after that.

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Jamie Kahn Genet - 27 Nov 2005 20:12 GMT

> Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> kirjoitti:
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> only hard points in Warmth help Inferno; any extra points in Warmth
> coming from skill boosting items do nothing for Inferno.

I see I've made a mistake treating the Masteries as synergistic skills.
Sorry :-) I get the difference now.

> >> No, you'd be better off making the skills themselves, as that will
> >> generally add more damage than an extra point in mastery.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> something unusual like that), not even when playing untwinked because
> skill bonuses are now trivially easy to get.

Are there any calculators for the sorceresses skills, their synergies
and passive bonuses? I have found a very helpful weapon damage and IAS
calculator which is wonderful for picking weapons.

> > I've only a finite number of skill points from leveling, as do we all.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> sorceress, since there are only a few potential places for the points
> after that.

Spreading thin is one way of looking at it. I just really wanted to see
how Shiver armor with max Frozen and chilling synergising would stand up
in later levels.

Hmmm... ok - how about this idea (feel free to shoot it down ;-) Many of
my ideas are impractical): max the three cold armors, max TS and as many
points into LM as possible, plus one point in CM to be boosted by
+skills. I could equip Coldkill which I have free (as a starter) which
ought to do decent damage with CM. With rune worded items providing...
oh, say HF, HS or Conviction auras to boost damage even more. My pool of
available runes increases every day so I'm sure I can add some useful
runeword with an aura later on.

Or perhaps max the cold armors, max CM and a the rest into Telekinesis
and ES; damage provided by a weapon with lots of cold damage. How about
that?

I suppose I could just say f**k it and go with a cookie cutter
Enchantress with only one cold armor and max Enchant, Warmth and FM. But
where's the fun in that? ;-)

Oh - and one last query - does FM/CM/LM also boost my Merc's
fire/cold/lightening damages?

Regards,
Jamie Kahn Genet

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Hannes Brunner - 27 Nov 2005 22:30 GMT

Jamie Kahn Genet schrieb:

<snip>

> Are there any calculators for the sorceresses skills, their synergies
> and passive bonuses? I have found a very helpful weapon damage and IAS
> calculator which is wonderful for picking weapons.

My favorit:
http://d2items.com/skills.php

Helpfull to find the optimum skill point distribution if you don't have
the points to max the main skill and synergies/mastery:
http://stud4.tuwien.ac.at/~e9325732/skillcalc.html

---
Hannes

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Stephen van Ham - 27 Nov 2005 20:47 GMT

Passive bonus = hard points, AND points granted from +skills, "count"
Synergy bonus = only hard points in the synergy "count", e.g. boosting
damage to fireball works by increasing its level with items, but
boosting fireBOLT using items won't increase fireBALL's damage

Passive skills (off the top of my head), for want of a better term:

Druid summoning (center of tree)
Cleansing and meditation gain full +healing from Prayer, including
+skills to Prayer (e.g. raise Prayer level with items and your healing
while cleaning or meditation is active, will increase)

Synergy skills:

TONS, all are correctly documented on the skill screen, as far as I
know/remember

Undocumented effects (on the skill screen)

Resist cold, fire, lightning aura boosting max single resist
Blessed aim aura
Raise skeleton gets undocumented bonuses

Sorry, there are more, I'm sure, but with my head so far into World of
Warcraft these days, much D2 related info is fading...

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Jamie Kahn Genet - 28 Nov 2005 10:11 GMT

> Passive bonus = hard points, AND points granted from +skills, "count"
> Synergy bonus = only hard points in the synergy "count", e.g. boosting
> damage to fireball works by increasing its level with items, but
> boosting fireBOLT using items won't increase fireBALL's damage

[snip]

> Sorry, there are more, I'm sure, but with my head so far into World of
> Warcraft these days, much D2 related info is fading...

Cheers for that info Stephen, Hannes and all you other helpful guys :-)

Regards,
Jamie Kahn Genet"

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