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Game Forum / Role Playing Games / Diablo / October 2003Hey, Blizzard: Use 1.10 to Make PvP Reasonable for Once
Of course, 1.10 _must_ eliminate the PK cheats, especially trigger hack. There can be no question that PKs who cheat this way are cowardly, subhuman filth, especially in HC. If Blizzard weren't a bunch of Satan-worshippers themselves, they would identify trigger hackers (a trivial exercise) and permanently disable their CD keys _now_, no exceptions. But this is about dealing with a different kind of cowardly, subhuman PK filth: senior characters who come into Normal games and murder teenagers and even pre-teens in Act 1 and 2 with impunity, but without having to cheat. Obviously, the clvl 9 limit is completely arbitrary, a number picked out of the air. It was implemented for no other reason than to stop senior characters from murdering young children, yet it does nothing to stop specially built PvP characters in their 70s, 80s, and even 90s from murdering untwinked PvM teenagers who have no chance of surviving such an attack. There are any number of ways to address this problem better than the arbitrary and idiotic clvl 9 limit. A few examples: 1. Reduce the PvP damage done by senior characters to junior ones according to the ratio of their clvls -- e.g., a 60 would do 1/3 damage against a 20, 1/20 damage against a 3. Perhaps even better would be to reduce all PvP damage by an order of magnitude compared to PvM damage, as certain skills like Thorns already are. 2. Limit hostiling by act number -- e.g., where NM acts are numbered 6-10, characters with clvl > (act# x 10) would not be able to hostile. 3. Perhaps simplest, make it impossible to hostile characters less than half your clvl. -- Roy L > Of course, 1.10 _must_ eliminate the PK cheats, especially trigger > hack. There can be no question that PKs who cheat this way are [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > 3. Perhaps simplest, make it impossible to hostile characters less > than half your clvl. Or make it impossible to hostile characters who don't want to be hostiled. End of PK problem. Add an arena somewhere. Let characters buy arena-only gear. Add viewing platforms so bystanders can get close enough to watch. Add prizes, win/loss records and pari-mutuel betting. And let everyone else adventure on in peace. -- Zamboni I like this idea. an arena for pvp. maybe that can be the basis behind patch 1.20. hahahaha would be cool though. > > Of course, 1.10 _must_ eliminate the PK cheats, especially trigger > > hack. There can be no question that PKs who cheat this way are [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > -- > Zamboni >Or make it impossible to hostile characters who don't want to be hostiled. >End of PK problem. Blizzard has repeatedly said that they will _never_ consider making PvP consensual. That is carved in stone. -- Roy L > But this is about dealing with a different kind of cowardly, subhuman > PK filth: senior characters who come into Normal games and murder > teenagers and even pre-teens in Act 1 and 2 with impunity, but without > having to cheat. There's a simple solution. Use the character level limits when you create a game. 100% effective in keeping these types of PKs out of your games. Regards- Mark Bongo-Fury > > But this is about dealing with a different kind of cowardly, subhuman > > PK filth: senior characters who come into Normal games and murder [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > There's a simple solution. Use the character level limits when you create a > game. 100% effective in keeping these types of PKs out of your games. I don't see any real difference between a level 9 char who's been rushed through all the quests, completely designed and twinked so they are a great killer slaughtering low level chars and a much higher level doing the same. >> > But this is about dealing with a different kind of cowardly, subhuman >> > PK filth: senior characters who come into Normal games and murder [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >through all the quests, completely designed and twinked so they are a great >killer slaughtering low level chars and a much higher level doing the same. The result is similar, but senior chars are _automatically_ far stronger than junior ones, while purpose-built junior PKs have to be carefully constructed, and require special gear which is not easy to get. -- Roy L > >> > But this is about dealing with a different kind of cowardly, subhuman > >> > PK filth: senior characters who come into Normal games and murder [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > carefully constructed, and require special gear which is not easy to > get. The result is so similar it's also predetermined. I'm not two sure that the gear is hard get, I simply started picking up things for the build as I played and quickly had two mules filled with decent to top flight gear. If the low level goes down the hacked route, then the gear is even easier to obtain. >> >> <royls@telus.net> wrote in message >news:3f942bc9.4000562@news.telus.net... [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >gear is hard get, I simply started picking up things for the build as I >played and quickly had two mules filled with decent to top flight gear. Like what? I find very little that would be useful to a pre-teen PK. And except for TS assassins, they don't have access to any really useful PK skills. Hacked gear is certainly not easy to get. -- Roy L Yo dawg, on Wed, 22 Oct 2003 18:39:02 GMT, royls@telus.net came 'round looking for action. Check it: >>The result is so similar it's also predetermined. I'm not two sure that the >>gear is hard get, I simply started picking up things for the build as I >>played and quickly had two mules filled with decent to top flight gear. >Like what? I find very little that would be useful to a pre-teen PK. >And except for TS assassins, they don't have access to any really >useful PK skills. Hacked gear is certainly not easy to get. Jewels of envy inflict 20 poison damage over 2 seconds and have no level requirement. There are many +max damage jewels with very low level requirements that can be socketed into weapons and armour. Packs can be filled to the brim with low level elemental damage jewels. Individually their damage may seem insignificant, but when you multiply the numbers by 20 or 30... With aggressive twinking, it's very possible to have a character inflict hundreds of damage per strike even at low levels, using completely legit gear. You are correct when you said 'not easy to get', since it's usually a volume of gear that such a low level character would not be able to collect on their own in any realistic time frame, but such setups are reasonably simple to put together if one knows what items to packrat away as they are found by other characters. Something which I've been pondering recently is what long term effect would be had on the game if every item that dropped had its level requirement set to the level of the character that made the killing hit/opened the chest etc (so any item found by a level 50 character would automatically have a level 50 requirement). It would certainly put an end to such extreme twinking. >Yo dawg, on Wed, 22 Oct 2003 18:39:02 GMT, royls@telus.net came 'round >looking for action. Check it: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Jewels of envy inflict 20 poison damage over 2 seconds and have no >level requirement. And I don't think I've seen more than a couple of them in all the time I've been playing on the realms. >There are many +max damage jewels with very low level requirements >that can be socketed into weapons and armour. IME there aren't that many jewels, period. >Packs can be filled to the brim with low level elemental damage >jewels. I assume you mean charms. >Individually their damage may seem insignificant, but when >you multiply the numbers by 20 or 30... They still aren't going to make much of a dent in a senior character's life ball. >With aggressive twinking, it's very possible to have a character >inflict hundreds of damage per strike even at low levels, using [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >one knows what items to packrat away as they are found by other >characters. I seem to find very few +dam jewels and scs. >Something which I've been pondering recently is what long term effect >would be had on the game if every item that dropped had its level >requirement set to the level of the character that made the killing >hit/opened the chest etc (so any item found by a level 50 character >would automatically have a level 50 requirement). It would certainly >put an end to such extreme twinking. Interesting idea, but you'd then have high-level characters clearing places like Hell Arcane Sanc, then letting low-levels pop the chests, which often contain pretty good drops. Maybe Blizzard should have been more aggressive in its use of level limits: there are some pretty powerful items (including certain sets, 5- and 6-socket bows, etc.) that can be used by some very low-level chars. And allowing charm effects to stack is just bad game design. -- Roy L > >Jewels of envy inflict 20 poison damage over 2 seconds and have no > >level requirement. > > And I don't think I've seen more than a couple of them in all the time > I've been playing on the realms. The fall like rain in some areas. I have a mule full of them. I have one low-level with 15 of them in his gear (for killing wringbearers). -- Zamboni > >Yo dawg, on Wed, 22 Oct 2003 18:39:02 GMT, royls@telus.net came 'round > >looking for action. Check it: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > And I don't think I've seen more than a couple of them in all the time > I've been playing on the realms. that sounds odd. Any char I take through pure will have at least 2 of them found before a4, then again I tend to id all jewels, you never know when you might just get lucky. > >There are many +max damage jewels with very low level requirements > >that can be socketed into weapons and armour. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > They still aren't going to make much of a dent in a senior character's > life ball. we're not talking of a level 9 assn picking on a lvl90 barb, but they can knock a standard level 30 char for a six. > >With aggressive twinking, it's very possible to have a character > >inflict hundreds of damage per strike even at low levels, using [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I seem to find very few +dam jewels and scs. odd, playing HC I'd expect you to actually find more. > >Something which I've been pondering recently is what long term effect > >would be had on the game if every item that dropped had its level [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > that can be used by some very low-level chars. And allowing charm > effects to stack is just bad game design. heh picked up a doozie 4 socketed roundache just yesterday with a lvl 6 req :) >> >Yo dawg, on Wed, 22 Oct 2003 18:39:02 GMT, royls@telus.net came 'round >> >looking for action. Check it: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >found before a4, then again I tend to id all jewels, you never know when you >might just get lucky. I have to admit: I play almost exclusively in crowded games, and I am very slow getting to the drops -- and my inventory is usually full of junk I inadvertently clicked on, so even if I do get to a drop first, unless it's a ring or ammy, I can't pick it up until I stick something in my cube, by which time somebody else has the good drop. Typically anything I manage to pick up has been left there because nobody else wanted it. >> >With aggressive twinking, it's very possible to have a character >> >inflict hundreds of damage per strike even at low levels, using [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >odd, playing HC I'd expect you to actually find more. See above for the main reason, I guess :( As a result, I do seem to end up with more than my share of absolutely _minimal_ +dam stuff, like 1-2 CD, 1-3 LD, etc. But you're not going to build a low-level PK with stuff like that. FWIW, I don't think there is any difference between HC and SC drops. -- Roy L snip > FWIW, I don't think there is any difference between HC and SC drops. The difference I found was that in HC I'd spend more time in the lower areas in large games but soloing (I once managed to shrine a perf skull before even getting Cain), hence I was more likely to find that sort of gear in hc than in sc where I'd be more likely to solo in a higher area. > >> >> <royls@telus.net> wrote in message > >news:3f942bc9.4000562@news.telus.net... [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > And except for TS assassins, they don't have access to any really > useful PK skills. Hacked gear is certainly not easy to get. I was actually collecting for an assn build, charms, jewels pelts etc. I would not have thought that hacked gear would be any harder in HC than SC, in SC it is *VERY* easy. If I wanted to, I could get paid hexes for rushes. Despite having 3 major mules and 2 lvl 99 chars go awol over the last few weeks, I'd hazard a guess that I could trade 160 hexes in a couple of hours. If I wanted to play hacked chars though, that would simply be too much effort, I'd simply buy from ebay or one of the hack sites an account full of hexes, whites etc. >> ><royls@telus.net> wrote in message >news:3f958734.3625438@news.telus.net... [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] >I would not have thought that hacked gear would be any harder in HC than SC, >in SC it is *VERY* easy. It seems to be much rarer in HC, maybe because it doesn't just keep _accumulating_: cheaters die (perhaps most often, killed by other cheaters), and their tainted gear dies with them. I have never seen a hex or white ring in HC on USWest. >If I wanted to, I could get paid hexes for rushes. >Despite having 3 major mules and 2 lvl 99 chars go awol over the last few >weeks, I'd hazard a guess that I could trade 160 hexes in a couple of hours. >If I wanted to play hacked chars though, that would simply be too much >effort, I'd simply buy from ebay or one of the hack sites an account full of >hexes, whites etc. Granted, hacks are another problem Blizzard should pull its thumb out and fix. But I was mainly trying to get at issues that lie within the game's legitimate design parameters. -- Roy L > >> ><royls@telus.net> wrote in message > >news:3f958734.3625438@news.telus.net... [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > cheaters), and their tainted gear dies with them. I have never seen a > hex or white ring in HC on USWest. I used to hold with that theory, but I believe duping is still happening, and at an astounding rate. > >If I wanted to, I could get paid hexes for rushes. > >Despite having 3 major mules and 2 lvl 99 chars go awol over the last few [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > -- Roy L > Like what? I find very little that would be useful to a pre-teen PK. You would be amazed what some of the LLD (low level duel) /PK gear is worth. I heard of someone who got a WF and 3 SS for an ethereal L9 claw with a good imbue on it. Of course a lot of that is botter inflation. A lot of the low level duelers/PKs support their habit by botting. But even the legit PKs will pay big for the right item. Easy stuff they look for are jewels w/ +9 max damage L8 (best w/ second mod), Carnage jewels, ethereal stuff. and especially Charms (at least in HC). > And except for TS assassins, they don't have access to any really > useful PK skills. Other low level skills to be wary of: Sacrifice or Charge for a Pally With the Mastery bug, Throw Mastery gives your displayed damage as PvP damage. I think those are the rest of the most common builds for low level killers. Regards- Mark Bongo-Fury >> Like what? I find very little that would be useful to a pre-teen PK. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >for are jewels w/ +9 max damage L8 (best w/ second mod), Carnage jewels, >ethereal stuff. and especially Charms (at least in HC). True. Charms should not stack. >> And except for TS assassins, they don't have access to any really >> useful PK skills. > >Other low level skills to be wary of: >Sacrifice or Charge for a Pally Charge is useful for PKs, yes. Sacrifice, while damaging, is pretty risky. >With the Mastery bug, Throw Mastery gives your displayed damage as PvP >damage. Right. The bug makes throwbarb PKs dangerous, but at least they can't sneak up on you as fast as the assassins. -- Roy L > >> Like what? I find very little that would be useful to a pre-teen PK. > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > True. Charms should not stack. Umm, why? And if they didn't stack, how would you rather have it work?? > >> And except for TS assassins, they don't have access to any really > >> useful PK skills. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Charge is useful for PKs, yes. Sacrifice, while damaging, is pretty > risky. If they're using Sacrifice, they're most likely more full of +life charms. > >With the Mastery bug, Throw Mastery gives your displayed damage as PvP > >damage. > > Right. The bug makes throwbarb PKs dangerous, but at least they can't > sneak up on you as fast as the assassins. What do you mean they can't sneak up on you? I've only been snuck up on by Sorcs, or some lameass with a TP ammy. short - just curious, is all >> ><royls@telus.net> wrote in message >news:3f96cd66.3199260@news.telus.net... [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >> >Umm, why? Because big accumulations of them are just too powerful. >And if they didn't stack, how would you rather have it work?? Only the strongest charm mod of a given type should work. >> >> And except for TS assassins, they don't have access to any really >> >> useful PK skills. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >If they're using Sacrifice, they're most likely more full of +life charms. Right. See above. >> >With the Mastery bug, Throw Mastery gives your displayed damage as PvP >> >damage. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >What do you mean they can't sneak up on you? I've only been snuck up on by >Sorcs, Lucky. A couple of times, I've been murdered about one second after an assassin's red letters first showed up on my automap. Fast boots, a couple of points in Burst of Speed, and some FRW charms do wonders. Sorcs have to wait for level 18 to get TP; and once they catch you, how are they going to kill you? None of their low-level skills does enough damage. >or some lameass with a TP ammy. TP ammies have a 48 level requirement, AFAIK. -- Roy L > >> ><royls@telus.net> wrote in message > >news:3f96cd66.3199260@news.telus.net... [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Because big accumulations of them are just too powerful. Hehe, yup! That's the point, I guess :o) > >And if they didn't stack, how would you rather have it work?? > > Only the strongest charm mod of a given type should work. Ahh, so if you have 3 fire damage charms...... one says 1-2 fire damage, one says 3-5, and one says 10-12. Only the 10-12 fire damage charm should take effect? > >> >> And except for TS assassins, they don't have access to any really > >> >> useful PK skills. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > how are they going to kill you? None of their low-level skills does > enough damage. Ahh, ok. I've seen a few Barb PKers running insanely fast. It looked like they charged up frenzy, and then had 1.8 Billion FRW. > >or some lameass with a TP ammy. > > TP ammies have a 48 level requirement, AFAIK. Ahh, yes. I forgot we were talking about LowLevels. Doh!! short short <shorts@zoominternet.net> stared blankly into space for a short while before writing: > Ahh, ok. I've seen a few Barb PKers running insanely fast. It > looked like they charged up frenzy, and then had 1.8 Billion FRW. 2 white rings, no lvl requirement. -- Doc > short <shorts@zoominternet.net> stared blankly into space for a short > while before writing: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > 2 white rings, no lvl requirement. Bah. You beat me by four minutes. :) RelMark > Ahh, ok. I've seen a few Barb PKers running insanely fast. It looked like > they charged up frenzy, and then had 1.8 Billion FRW. I thought I remember hearing that there were some hacked items with an insane speed bonus (white rings? 100% FRW?). RelMark >>Like what? I find very little that would be useful to a pre-teen PK. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > But even the legit PKs Now see-that to me is an oxymoron...there's a big difference between a PvP char and a PK. PvP char are legit, and don't try to hostile someone significantly off their clvl, where PK's are out solely to kill off as many unsuspecting poor saps as they can. just a thought...  SignatureJim -------- "The higher you are, the harder it is to pump." -Cleveland Mayor Jane Cambell, after the big black-out of 2003 > Now see-that to me is an oxymoron...there's a big difference between a > PvP char and a PK. PvP char are legit, and don't try to hostile someone > significantly off their clvl, where PK's are out solely to kill off as > many unsuspecting poor saps as they can. I think PKing is a morally bankrupt activity and those who participate in it are showing a character flaw. Unfortunately, Blizzard strongly disagrees with that opinion. They feel it is an integral part of the game they designed. So according to the game designers, my rabid anti-PK stance is more unlegit than any PK. A 'legit' Pk is someone who doesn't cheat, use hacks, or dupes. They only 'hunt' higher level characters and they announce their intentions before hitting the hostile button. Many of these folks are highly skilled, and are just as dangerous as a trigger user (moreso sometimes because people tend to under estimate them). The best I heard was someone who killed a L50 character with a L9 PK. But regardless of their skill and civility, they only really kill the newbies and the stupid. Because anyone that knows what they are all about will seek safety before the PK can find them. Regards- Mark Bongo-Fury While pondering glazed doughnuts Mark <mte@stargate.net> mistakenly typed :> Now see-that to me is an oxymoron...there's a big difference between a :> PvP char and a PK. PvP char are legit, and don't try to hostile someone [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] : only really kill the newbies and the stupid. Because anyone that knows what : they are all about will seek safety before the PK can find them. Only hunt higher level chars? While that's noble, I'd hardly call it unlegit to hunt equals or lower levels. -dave >A 'legit' Pk is someone who doesn't cheat, use hacks, or dupes. IMO it is legit to use dupes, as long as you don't _make_ dupes, because you can't tell if an item is duped when you get it from someone else. >They only >'hunt' higher level characters It is legit to hunt junior chars as well. >and they announce their intentions before >hitting the hostile button. It is legit to ambush someone who has hostiled you. >Many of these folks are highly skilled, and are >just as dangerous as a trigger user (moreso sometimes because people tend to >under estimate them). The best I heard was someone who killed a L50 >character with a L9 PK. But regardless of their skill and civility, they >only really kill the newbies and the stupid. You contradict yourself. It is true that legit PKs rarely kill anyone who knows what they are doing. Trigger cheaters, OTOH, can kill anyone, anywhere but in town. Legits can _never_ be as dangerous as triggers, because only triggers can kill you before you have time to react to the hostile -- and sometimes before you even _hear_ the hostile. -- Roy L > IMO it is legit to use dupes, as long as you don't _make_ dupes, > because you can't tell if an item is duped when you get it from > someone else. Well that's not what you agreed to when you installed the game. Maybe you should reread the EULA, particularly: 3. Responsibilities of End User. C. You are entitled to use the Program for your own use, but you are not entitled to: (v) utilize "Duplicated Characters" and/or "Duplicated Items" on Battle.net, including, but not limited to, weapons, armor, rings, amulets, stones, staves, etc ... As far as not knowing an item is a dupe, I guess there is a .0001% chance that the SOJ you just traded for is legit. If that's enough to mollify your conscience, so be it. Just don't call yourself legit. > You contradict yourself. It is true that legit PKs rarely kill anyone > who knows what they are doing. Trigger cheaters, OTOH, can kill > anyone, anywhere but in town. Legits can _never_ be as dangerous as > triggers, because only triggers can kill you before you have time to > react to the hostile -- and sometimes before you even _hear_ the > hostile. The most dangerous thing about a PK is giving them a CHANCE to kill you. If you allow a high level Zon or Sorc near you, you're just asking to be killed. You are aware of Triggers on the Realms, so if you let one of these characters near enough for them to do their deed, you have only yourself to blame. The llegit' PK on the other hand can easily be under estimated. BTW, I've never been PK'd by a trigger. And I play pubs a good bit. Regards- Mark Bongo-Fury >> IMO it is legit to use dupes, as long as you don't _make_ dupes, >> because you can't tell if an item is duped when you get it from [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >including, but not limited to, weapons, armor, rings, amulets, stones, >staves, etc ... This is just garbage. Until Blizzard does something about making it possible for players to _identify_ dupes, they have no damn business "requiring" us not to use them: we have no way of complying with their terms, other than never using any item from any other player. That would sure make MP fun, wouldn't it? The EULA could just as legitimately require us not to read anything about D2 anywhere but Arreat Summit. It's just stupid. >As far as not knowing an item is a dupe, I guess there is a .0001% chance >that the SOJ you just traded for is legit. I don't have any SoJs. And if you have ever received any item whatsoever from any other player, you have no way of knowing if it was duped or not. >If that's enough to mollify your >conscience, so be it. Just don't call yourself legit. In that case, the only people who can call themselves legit are those who have _never_ received _any_ item from _any_ other player. Tell me, Mark: can _you_ call yourself "legit"? >> You contradict yourself. It is true that legit PKs rarely kill anyone >> who knows what they are doing. Trigger cheaters, OTOH, can kill [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >The most dangerous thing about a PK is giving them a CHANCE to kill you. If you are out of town, a trigger hacker can kill you. Unless, of course, you are a cheater... >If >you allow a high level Zon or Sorc near you, you're just asking to be >killed. Garbage. A week ago, my HC sorc 45 was triggered just after taking the red portal down to Pindleskin. I saw the letters appear and suspected what was coming, but was dead before I could open a portal and get into it. You don't seem to understand that Blizzard has deliberately designed the game for the convenience of cheaters and griefers: when a trigger hacker hostiles you, all their previously untargeted attacks instantly retarget on you and hit you. For example, if a zon has Slow Missiles on and is triggered with GA, the GAs are _not_ slowed: they all hit her instantly. I know, because it has happened to me. >You are aware of Triggers on the Realms, so if you let one of these >characters near enough for them to do their deed, you have only yourself to >blame. You have no idea what you are talking about. Yesterday my HC zon 44 went to the Frigid Highlands wp and was instantly killed by a trigger hacker. Am I supposed to play without using wps? Or just without leaving town? >The llegit' PK on the other hand can easily be under estimated. Legit PKs essentially can't kill you unless you agree to be killed, because they can't attack you out of town, before they even hostile you. Triggers can. >BTW, I've never been PK'd by a trigger. And I play pubs a good bit. ??? Don't you have any characters above clvl 8? -- Roy L > In that case, the only people who can call themselves legit are those > who have _never_ received _any_ item from _any_ other player. I'm one of those legit people! desktop at home dot se >> In that case, the only people who can call themselves legit are those >> who have _never_ received _any_ item from _any_ other player. > >I'm one of those legit people! Only if you have also never picked up an item that another player could have dropped there, rather than a monster. Of course, the best way to avoid getting tainted gear is never to play MP... -- Roy L >>> In that case, the only people who can call themselves legit are >>> those who have _never_ received _any_ item from _any_ other player. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Only if you have also never picked up an item that another player > could have dropped there, rather than a monster. Thanks for ruining my legit reputation. ;-) > Of course, the best way to avoid getting tainted gear is never to play > MP... You're not the boss of me! desktop at home dot se > This is just garbage. Until Blizzard does something about making it > possible for players to _identify_ dupes, they have no damn business [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > legitimately require us not to read anything about D2 anywhere but > Arreat Summit. It's just stupid. Well that's not what you agreed to when you accepted the EULA. It's a little ironic (hypocritical?) that you condemn others for not playing legit, while you yourself are advocating not playing legit. Just as you rationalize your disregard for the use of dupes, so too the triggers rationalize their use of third party programs. > I don't have any SoJs. And if you have ever received any item > whatsoever from any other player, you have no way of knowing if it was > duped or not. "If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there ..." Unless you found the item, or saw it drop, you cannot be absolutely positive that it is not a dupe. But that doesn't mean that you cannot use any such item. You just have to do your best to assure that they are not dupes. > In that case, the only people who can call themselves legit are those > who have _never_ received _any_ item from _any_ other player. I have some items that I got from trusted friends, they COULD be dupes. But I'm willing to bet my house that I won't lose a single item when the 'rust storm' hits. Would you be willing to make the same bet? > Tell me, Mark: can _you_ call yourself "legit"? Oh no, I'm a dirty rotten cheater. I use Maphack for the anti drop hack feature when playing pubs. And when playing with friends, I use the lighting feature to make it easier on my old eyes and to run smoother on my antique computer. > If you are out of town, a trigger hacker can kill you. Unless, of > course, you are a cheater... Yep, there is always a chance you'll die if you're out of town. But if you play smart the threat can be minimized. > >If > >you allow a high level Zon or Sorc near you, you're just asking to be [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > suspected what was coming, but was dead before I could open a portal > and get into it. Taking a WP/TP/portal with a Zon/Sorc in the game, without knowing where they are is reckless. Unfortunately you paid a high price to learn that lesson. > You don't seem to understand that Blizzard has deliberately designed > the game for the convenience of cheaters and griefers: when a trigger > hacker hostiles you, all their previously untargeted attacks instantly > retarget on you and hit you. For example, if a zon has Slow Missiles > on and is triggered with GA, the GAs are _not_ slowed: they all hit > her instantly. I know, because it has happened to me. I understand what triggers are all about. Knowledge is your best friend in HC. > >You are aware of Triggers on the Realms, so if you let one of these > >characters near enough for them to do their deed, you have only yourself to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > hacker. Am I supposed to play without using wps? Or just without > leaving town? I guess you didn't learn the lesson from your L45 Sorc from a week before. Let me reinforce it for you: Taking a WP/TP/portal with a Zon/Sorc in the game (without knowing where those characters are) is very dangerous, and could lead to the loss of your character. Trigger PKs most often hunt in the 'run' games (sewers, arcane, bloody, baal, cows). The game name tells them where most of the characters are most likely to be. So it's easy for them to lay their trap (triggers by nature like to take the easy way). If you're just looking to level, most times it's better to play solo in one of these games, but in another area. Don't party up and no one will know where you are. And the experience is often times better than participating in the 'run'. > Legit PKs essentially can't kill you unless you agree to be killed, > because they can't attack you out of town, before they even hostile > you. Triggers can. Yes, but many people make the mistake, "what's that little L9 character doing hostiling my L25? I don't have anything to fear from them". > ??? Don't you have any characters above clvl 8? My stable currently has 8 Guardians, L60-L92. The only one that was rushed was a Sorc who got a ride to A5 so she could hire a Barb merc. Then she and Ulf played through the game together from L1 (BTW, I learned from this character that mercs leveled up from L1 don't have any better stats from a higher level one hired in the equivalent act/difficulty). Regards- Mark Bongo-Fury >> This is just garbage. Until Blizzard does something about making it >> possible for players to _identify_ dupes, they have no damn business [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Well that's not what you agreed to when you accepted the EULA. Well, realms full of blatant, deliberate cheaters who have not the slightest fear of ever suffering even the tiniest inconvenience as a result of their transgressions is not what _Blizzard_ agreed to when it took my money. I think you will find that my agreement not to do something that, because of Blizzard's negligence and dishonesty, is impossible to avoid entirely while still playing the game has no legal force. >It's a little >ironic (hypocritical?) that you condemn others for not playing legit, while >you yourself are advocating not playing legit. Wrong. I just don't _define_ "legit" in a way that is impossible to fulfill and still play in MP games. >Just as you rationalize your >disregard for the use of dupes, so too the triggers rationalize their use of >third party programs. That is absurd and outrageous. The triggers know exactly what they are doing every time they do it. I have no way of knowing if a given item I get in an MP game is duped. >> I don't have any SoJs. And if you have ever received any item >> whatsoever from any other player, you have no way of knowing if it was >> duped or not. > >Unless you found the item, or saw it drop, you cannot be absolutely positive >that it is not a dupe. Even if you found it you can't be sure, unless there were no other players in the area when it dropped. >But that doesn't mean that you cannot use any such >item. But by your definition, if you do you won't be "legit." >You just have to do your best to assure that they are not dupes. The only dupe-worthy items I have I have found. >> In that case, the only people who can call themselves legit are those >> who have _never_ received _any_ item from _any_ other player. > >I have some items that I got from trusted friends, they COULD be dupes. Right. Which means that by your own definition, you are no more a legit player than I am. >But >I'm willing to bet my house that I won't lose a single item when the 'rust >storm' hits. Would you be willing to make the same bet? No, and I think you would be a fool to make that bet, however trustworthy you think your friends are. >> Tell me, Mark: can _you_ call yourself "legit"? > >Oh no, I'm a dirty rotten cheater. But it seems you don't see that as a reflection on your definition of cheating. >I use Maphack for the anti drop hack >feature when playing pubs. While I don't use MH or any other 3rd party program. And you have the gall to claim you are more legit than I am? >> If you are out of town, a trigger hacker can kill you. Unless, of >> course, you are a cheater... > >Yep, there is always a chance you'll die if you're out of town. But a legit PK _cannot_ kill you if you don't deliberately risk being killed -- at the outside, all he can do is MK you. >> >If >> >you allow a high level Zon or Sorc near you, you're just asking to be [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Taking a WP/TP/portal with a Zon/Sorc in the game, without knowing where >they are is reckless. ??? _You_ try to find a public Hell HC game with no zons or sorcs. They now constitute the overwhelming _majority_ of chars in public Hell HC games, because the trigger cheaters have killed off almost everyone else. And almost all the survivors -- as well as all the trigger hackers -- are using chicken hack. And the only way to know where other chars are is to either be in the same town with them, in which case they know when you leave and have a chance to follow you, or to party with them, in which case _they_ also know where _you_ are -- I'm smart enough not to do that, thank you. If, OTOH, you are a cheating MH user... >> >You are aware of Triggers on the Realms, so if you let one of these >> >characters near enough for them to do their deed, you have only yourself [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >I guess you didn't learn the lesson from your L45 Sorc from a week before. I learned the lesson long ago: if you leave town, a trigger hacker can kill you. Real useful. >Let me reinforce it for you: Taking a WP/TP/portal with a Zon/Sorc in the >game (without knowing where those characters are) is very dangerous, and >could lead to the loss of your character. ?? The only way you can know where they are, unless you are using a cheat program like MH, as you do, is to also let them know where you are. And what is the alternative? The only way to get out of town other than taking a wp/tp/portal is to walk out, in plain view of any trigger hacker who happens to show up in town. You might as well paint a target on your back. >Trigger PKs most often hunt in the 'run' games (sewers, arcane, bloody, >baal, cows). The game name tells them where most of the characters are most >likely to be. So it's easy for them to lay their trap (triggers by nature >like to take the easy way). If you're just looking to level, most times it's >better to play solo in one of these games, but in another area. That's what I usually do. Then when the game reaches a certain age, I'll go look at the run area to clean up monsters that spawned at high player numbers (and any leftover loot). That's how my zon got nailed. The Bloody run was over half an hour before I went to the Frigid Highlands wp, but the trigger hacker was waiting there with her hydras up. >Don't party >up and no one will know where you are. Bull. The triggers all use MH, and all they have to do is go through the towns until they find an open portal; or if that doesn't work, visit the wps and look around using their cheat. Granted, most of them are lazy, and don't look in the backwaters. But the backwaters are backwaters for a reason: there is pretty much no reason to play there. >And the experience is often times >better than participating in the 'run'. Very unlikely. I'm almost sure xp in MP doesn't work the way Blizzard claims. The times I have been in groups fighting in the same area, I have leveled way faster than soloing the same area, whether I was doing most of the killing or not. >> Legit PKs essentially can't kill you unless you agree to be killed, >> because they can't attack you out of town, before they even hostile >> you. Triggers can. > >Yes, but many people make the mistake, "what's that little L9 character >doing hostiling my L25? I don't have anything to fear from them". Thank you for admitting that legit PKs are not as dangerous as triggers, except to fools. >> ??? Don't you have any characters above clvl 8? > >My stable currently has 8 Guardians, L60-L92. Then you are probably either using chicken hack, or rarely play in public games, or have been extremely lucky. >The only one that was rushed >was a Sorc who got a ride to A5 so she could hire a Barb merc. Then she and >Ulf played through the game together from L1 (BTW, I learned from this >character that mercs leveled up from L1 don't have any better stats from a >higher level one hired in the equivalent act/difficulty). Contrary to what Blizzard swears to on a stack of Lam Esen's Tomes. That's a surprise, huh? -- Roy L > Well, realms full of blatant, deliberate cheaters who have not the > slightest fear of ever suffering even the tiniest inconvenience as a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > impossible to avoid entirely while still playing the game has no legal > force. You really need to read the EULA again Roy. Blizzard makes NO claim to a cheat free realm, or pretty much commits to provide you with anything. Yet you agreed to these terms when you installed the game. To now say that that agreement now places the responsibility on Blizzard to supply you with a cheat free game is absolutely wrong. You may not like it, I don't like it, but that's what we both agreed to. Blizzard is living up to their commitments in the EULS and TOUA. You (and I) are not. > Wrong. I just don't _define_ "legit" in a way that is impossible to > fulfill and still play in MP games. Legit is playing the game by the terms of the EULA and the TOUA, simple as that. > >Just as you rationalize your > >disregard for the use of dupes, so too the triggers rationalize their use of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > are doing every time they do it. I have no way of knowing if a given > item I get in an MP game is duped. That's not what I was saying. The triggers justify their breaking the EULA/TOUA for their own reasons. You justify breaking them because YOU think it's too tough to tell a dupe from a nondupe. You're both rationalizing breaking the rules. And as such it's hypocritical to condemn others for doing the same thing as yourself. > >I have some items that I got from trusted friends, they COULD be dupes. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > No, and I think you would be a fool to make that bet, however > trustworthy you think your friends are. It's called confidence, Roy. I'm confident that I've done my best not to use duped items. And I'm willing to back that up. If you can't make the same statement, then you're not upholding your agreement to the EULA. Making a half hearted attempt is not enough. > >I use Maphack for the anti drop hack > >feature when playing pubs. > > While I don't use MH or any other 3rd party program. And you have the > gall to claim you are more legit than I am? I've never claimed to be legit. Nor do I self righteously condemn trigger PK while minimizing my own indiscretions. All I've done is point out that you are not clean, and so have little room to criticize other cheaters. Welcome to my world. > But a legit PK _cannot_ kill you if you don't deliberately risk being > killed -- at the outside, all he can do is MK you. I know a legit PK (Son_ofRah) who has successfully done the GA/TP/hostile trick without the use of a script. Completely legit and within normal gameplay. And the Hydra PK trick has been around since 1.00, it killed many people before the triggers automated it. Sorry Roy, I don't buy that argument. Legit PKs ARE deadly. > >Taking a WP/TP/portal with a Zon/Sorc in the game, without knowing where > >they are is reckless. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > everyone else. And almost all the survivors -- as well as all the > trigger hackers -- are using chicken hack. If you're questing your L45 Sorc and your L44 Zon in hell difficulty games, then you're a very skilled player, and so should be able to avoid trigger PKs. Otherwise, why did you introduce Hell games into the discussion. The characters you mention in your previous post were NM characters. But Hell is the most difficult part of the game. If you don't take precautions and play smart, you can easily lose your character. And in my experience, the thing that kills more characters than anything is laziness/complacency on the part of the player. > And the only way to know where other chars are is to either be in the > same town with them, in which case they know when you leave and have a > chance to follow you, or to party with them, in which case _they_ also > know where _you_ are -- I'm smart enough not to do that, thank you. Simple, party up with folks when you enter (PKs will accept your invite cause they wanna find you) then when you know where everyone is, leave the party and go to a different act. If that doesn't work, pop around to the various towns looking for the dangerous characters or their TPs. > I learned the lesson long ago: if you leave town, a trigger hacker can > kill you. Real useful. If you leave town, your character can die, weather from monsters, legit PKs, or Triggers. You just have to be prepared for all these possibilities. > >Let me reinforce it for you: Taking a WP/TP/portal with a Zon/Sorc in the > >game (without knowing where those characters are) is very dangerous, and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > cheat program like MH, as you do, is to also let them know where you > are. Yes, but you can then change acts and pick a random WP to start your playing. The odds of the PK picking the exact same act and WP are minimal. And you will be there first, so they can't take advantage of you by exploiting load lag (sounds like that's what got your last 2 characters). > And what is the alternative? The only way to get out of town other > than taking a wp/tp/portal is to walk out, in plain view of any > trigger hacker who happens to show up in town. You might as well > paint a target on your back. If there's a potential PK waiting in town, of course you won't walk out the front gate. Rather, change acts and pick a WP (see above). But if there is nobody in town, then it's safe to walk out the front gate. Like I keep saying, it's just a matter of playing smart. And if the game you join gives you a bad vibe, quit and find a new one. It's better to change games than to rebuild a character. > That's what I usually do. Then when the game reaches a certain age, > I'll go look at the run area to clean up monsters that spawned at high > player numbers (and any leftover loot). That's how my zon got nailed. > The Bloody run was over half an hour before I went to the Frigid > Highlands wp, but the trigger hacker was waiting there with her hydras > up. IMO, you're taking a big risk for a small potential reward. Killing stragglers and picking through the flotsam & jetsam is not worth the risks you are taking. But they're your characters, play how you wish. Just don't bitch when you pay for the risks you are taking (like a guy who always draws to inside straights bitching about their bad luck). > Bull. The triggers all use MH, and all they have to do is go through > the towns until they find an open portal; or if that doesn't work, > visit the wps and look around using their cheat. Granted, most of > them are lazy, and don't look in the backwaters. But the backwaters > are backwaters for a reason: there is pretty much no reason to play > there. Except for relatively safe adventuring in pubs. > >And the experience is often times > >better than participating in the 'run'. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > have leveled way faster than soloing the same area, whether I was > doing most of the killing or not. I go to Bloody runs and solo the various Halls. Recently I followed a group through a half dozen runs. In the time they cleared the Bloodies, I could do the HoP and most of the time get into the HoA. At the start one of the 'runners' was 45 just like me. After 6 games I was 50 and they were 48. > >> ??? Don't you have any characters above clvl 8? > > > >My stable currently has 8 Guardians, L60-L92. > > Then you are probably either using chicken hack, or rarely play in > public games, or have been extremely lucky. As I stated in the last post, I only use MH for drop hack protection and the lighting feature. And while I play more private than pubs, I do play pubs a good bit. But pubs are very dangerous, and I adjust my game play accordingly. For example, if I'm gonna pick through the trash of old games, I use my Bear with 5000 life and a scad of minions. He's fairly trigger proof. But still, if I'm in a dead cow game and someone comes up on my mini map, I immediately head back to town. You've gotta balance risk and reward. > >The only one that was rushed > >was a Sorc who got a ride to A5 so she could hire a Barb merc. Then she and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Contrary to what Blizzard swears to on a stack of Lam Esen's Tomes. > That's a surprise, huh? I think what it is, is: a normal Defiance merc leveled up will have better stats than a hell hired merc of the same level. Or else the better by leveled up thing was only in an earlier version of the game. Regards- Mark Bongo-Fury >> Well, realms full of blatant, deliberate cheaters who have not the >> slightest fear of ever suffering even the tiniest inconvenience as a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >You really need to read the EULA again Roy. No, Mark, actually I don't. >Blizzard makes NO claim to a >cheat free realm, or pretty much commits to provide you with anything. ?? Of course. The EULA only defines what _I_ agree to, not what Blizzard agrees to when it takes my money, or its obligations to fulfill their advertising promises. >Yet you agreed to these terms when you installed the game. Irrelevant. As I have no way to comply with those terms of the EULA, they have no legal force. Period. >To now say that that >agreement now places the responsibility on Blizzard to supply you with a >cheat free game is absolutely wrong. True. Which might be why I did _not_ claim that the _EULA_ places any obligation on Blizzard. The EULA is a one-sided "agreement" that only places obligations on me, none on Blizzard. Blizzard's obligations arise from its advertising claims, not the EULA. >You may not like it, I don't like it, >but that's what we both agreed to. Blizzard is living up to their >commitments in the EULS and TOUA. ?? Their commitments under those "agreements" are non-existent. >You (and I) are not. No. When Blizzard advertised cheat-free realms, it assumed an obligation to supply them. Anything less is fraud. >> Wrong. I just don't _define_ "legit" in a way that is impossible to >> fulfill and still play in MP games. > >Legit is playing the game by the terms of the EULA and the TOUA, simple as >that. Nope. Legit is not using cheats or hacks, simple as that. >> >Just as you rationalize your >> >disregard for the use of dupes, so too the triggers rationalize their use [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >That's not what I was saying. The triggers justify their breaking the >EULA/TOUA for their own reasons. How they "justify" it is utterly irrelevant. They are deliberately cheating. I am not. >You justify breaking them because YOU think >it's too tough to tell a dupe from a nondupe. Wrong. I don't "justify" breaking them at all. I just point out the _fact_ that it is impossible for me to be sure I am not breaking them when I pick up or trade for or accept an item in a MP game. >You're both rationalizing >breaking the rules. Wrong. Cheaters are _deliberately_ breaking them, and _know_ they are doing so. I have no way of knowing if I am breaking them or not. >And as such it's hypocritical to condemn others for >doing the same thing as yourself. Garbage. They are cheating _for_sure_, and they know it. I am not deliberately cheating, and in fact don't know if I am cheating, and have no way of knowing if I am cheating. >> >But >> >I'm willing to bet my house that I won't lose a single item when the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >It's called confidence, Roy. It's called self-delusion. >I'm confident that I've done my best not to use >duped items. And I'm willing to back that up. If you can't make the same >statement, then you're not upholding your agreement to the EULA. Making a >half hearted attempt is not enough. ?? What _is_ "enough"? Does it come down to your _opinion_ that you have done "enough" to avoid using dupes, and I haven't? I don't use or accept any known common dupes. Unlike you, I also don't use any 3rd party cheat programs -- nor do I have any trusted friends I can play with in private games and get items from. If Blizzard wants more from me than that, they'll have to start anteing up their share of the effort. I bought the game to enjoy playing it, _including_ the advertised "cheat-free" realms. IMO the HC MP game is the best experience _legit_ D2 has to offer. I am not going to stop picking up, accepting, or trading for items in MP games out of some misguided desire to live up to the unreasonable terms of the EULA. >> >I use Maphack for the anti drop hack >> >feature when playing pubs. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >I've never claimed to be legit. Maybe not, but IMO you are promoting a ridiculously strict definition of "legit" in order to convince yourself that people who don't use cheat programs are no more legit than you are. Sorry, but I don't buy it. >Nor do I self righteously condemn trigger PK >while minimizing my own indiscretions. ??? Outrageous. Do you make similar arguments that people who drive a few mph over the limit have no business condemning murderers? >All I've done is point out that you >are not clean, and so have little room to criticize other cheaters. Wrong. You are _assuming_ I am not clean. You don't know if I am or not, and neither do I. But we _all_ know that triggers are dirty. That is very much the point, just as criminal _intent_ is central to the definition of criminal acts. >> But a legit PK _cannot_ kill you if you don't deliberately risk being >> killed -- at the outside, all he can do is MK you. > >I know a legit PK (Son_ofRah) who has successfully done the GA/TP/hostile >trick without the use of a script. Completely legit and within normal >gameplay. So he claims... >And the Hydra PK trick has been around since 1.00, it killed many >people before the triggers automated it. Only people who were unaware of the bug. >Sorry Roy, I don't buy that >argument. Legit PKs ARE deadly. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >then you're a very skilled player, and so should be able to avoid trigger >PKs. You can no more avoid triggers in public games than you can avoid dupes. Deal with it. >Otherwise, why did you introduce Hell games into the discussion. Because eventually people want to play in Hell. I am playing three conquerors right now, and only about one game in 10 that I look at has no zon or sorc. Half the games have _only_ zons and/or sorcs. The implications of this fact should be obvious even to Blizzard, as wel as to you. >The >characters you mention in your previous post were NM characters. True, they didn't make it to Hell. >But Hell is the most difficult part of the game. If you don't take >precautions and play smart, you can easily lose your character. And in my >experience, the thing that kills more characters than anything is >laziness/complacency on the part of the player. You know what? I have _never_ lost a HC character over 30 to _anything_ but a trigger hacker. And that is getting very, very old. >> And the only way to know where other chars are is to either be in the >> same town with them, in which case they know when you leave and have a [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >If you leave town, your character can die, weather from monsters, legit PKs, >or Triggers. You just have to be prepared for all these possibilities. See above. >> >Let me reinforce it for you: Taking a WP/TP/portal with a Zon/Sorc in the >> >game (without knowing where those characters are) is very dangerous, and [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >And you will be there first, so they can't take advantage of you by >exploiting load lag (sounds like that's what got your last 2 characters). Probably the zon suffered load lag, because she never even got off the wp. The sorc had time to take a few steps before the trigger hacker appeared behind her. Neither of them had any chance of surviving the trigger. >> And what is the alternative? The only way to get out of town other >> than taking a wp/tp/portal is to walk out, in plain view of any [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >saying, it's just a matter of playing smart. And if the game you join gives >you a bad vibe, quit and find a new one. These days they all give me bad vibes. >It's better to change games than to >rebuild a character. But I want to _play_ the game, not devote my life to making up for Blizzard's incompetence and dishonesty. >> That's what I usually do. Then when the game reaches a certain age, >> I'll go look at the run area to clean up monsters that spawned at high [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >Except for relatively safe adventuring in pubs. Let's see now: I can't accept anything from other players because it might be a dupe, and I can't play in any of the areas where good stuff can drop because there might be a trigger hacker waiting for me. That sure sounds like a fun way to play. Not. >> >And the experience is often times >> >better than participating in the 'run'. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >the HoP and most of the time get into the HoA. At the start one of the >'runners' was 45 just like me. After 6 games I was 50 and they were 48. Soloing the HoP in the time a team is clearing the Foothills needs good equipment that just doesn't drop in places like the HoP. So if I can't accept any items from any other players, where do I get the good gear? >For example, if I'm gonna pick through the trash of old games, I use my Bear >with 5000 life and a scad of minions. He's fairly trigger proof. Trigger attacks ignore minions and target only the player, as my 36 necro with 10 revives, 7 mages and a fire golem found out. >But still, >if I'm in a dead cow game and someone comes up on my mini map, I immediately >head back to town. That goes without saying, whatever the game. -- Roy L > >Yet you agreed to these terms when you installed the game. > > Irrelevant. As I have no way to comply with those terms of the EULA, > they have no legal force. Period. RIght - last I heard, no EULA is binding, since in most cases you can't return the software to the store once you've opened it, and you can't read the EULA until you attempt to install the software. EULAs have no legal power. As far as moral power goes (whatever you take that to mean), no one needs a EULA to know if they're cheating or not. That being said, Blizzard can kick anyone off the realms that they want to. You can still play Dii with a banned CD key anyway, just in SP only. They can also "sweep" the realms if they want. If one or more of the items I've traded for were duped, and they erase them, so be it. I'll gladly 'take one for the team' amd lose a few items to get rid of PKers with ridiculous stats. Lex >That being said, Blizzard can kick anyone off the realms that they want to. >You can still play Dii with a banned CD key anyway, just in SP only. They >can also "sweep" the realms if they want. If one or more of the items I've >traded for were duped, and they erase them, so be it. I'll gladly 'take one >for the team' amd lose a few items to get rid of PKers with ridiculous >stats. I think almost everyone but the cheaters is willing to lose whatever it takes to _stop_the_cheating_. I would be quite willing to lose not only any dupes I might have, not only any legit items I have that other people have dupes of, but _all_ my items, and in fact _all_ my characters, if I was _sure_ that Blizzard was doing it as part of a _serious_ effort at stopping cheaters once and for all. -- Roy L royls@telus.net looked up from reading the entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say: <snippety> >>Just as you rationalize your >>disregard for the use of dupes, so too the triggers rationalize their use of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >are doing every time they do it. I have no way of knowing if a given >item I get in an MP game is duped. It's outrageous if you're older than about 25. Some of the new generation don't see it as cheating, it's "winning differently". Just look at the web sites full of cheat codes and trainers that call themselves gamewinners or such. Since Diablo2 is an ongoing game, with even max exp level 99's still fighting to get items, the only way these twerps can "win" is in PK, and the only way to make sure they win is to use hacks and cheats. Seems these a.sholes have forgotten the game is about fun, not winning. Shame that Blizzard seem to be among these a.sholes, since they could stop all trigger hacks with almost no effort. The simplest possible way - can't declare hostile until you've been in town for 5 seconds + (max possible hydra duration/ max possible Guided arrow duration [Blizzard has these numbers]) Boom - no more trigger hacks. Of course Blizzard's actually "anti-trigger-hack" mode was to find the minimum hostile delay that triggers could still work with and implement that. This just points to one or more Blizzard programmers being Trigger-hack PKs. Xocyll SignatureI don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably, Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr > The simplest possible way - can't declare hostile until you've been in > town for 5 seconds + (max possible hydra duration/ max possible Guided > arrow duration [Blizzard has these numbers]) Or better yet-when you declare hostile, anything you have cast is GONE. Your guideds vanish, hydras vanish, traps vanish, hell, you could even take it further and have summons die, EShield/TStorm/whatever expire, etc if you want. They already have it set so that when you hostile your TPs vanish. Why not just take that to the next level, and have hydras/traps/guideds vanish as well? > Xocyll > > The simplest possible way - can't declare hostile until you've been in > > town for 5 seconds + (max possible hydra duration/ max possible Guided [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > not just take that to the next level, and have hydras/traps/guideds vanish > as well? Or even one step further...you hostile someone and they can hurt you but you can't hurt them until they hostile you back. Like throwing down the gauntlet but not being able to duel until your intended opponent accepts. >> > The simplest possible way - can't declare hostile until you've been in >> > town for 5 seconds + (max possible hydra duration/ max possible Guided [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >you can't hurt them until they hostile you back. Like throwing down the >gauntlet but not being able to duel until your intended opponent accepts. Blizzard has said they will never consider making hostilities consensual. -- Roy L Roy L said: >Blizzard has said they will never consider making hostilities >consensual. But then again, they've SAID a lot of things.... ;) -- Stephen Mackey > Blizzard has said they will never consider making hostilities > consensual. Blizzard has said they would provide a cheat free, hack free realm. > -- Roy L >> Blizzard has said they will never consider making hostilities >> consensual. > > Blizzard has said they would provide a cheat free, hack free realm. But did they say they would provide access to that realm? It's probably hidden away somewhere. desktop at home dot se > Or better yet-when you declare hostile, anything you have cast is GONE. Your > guideds vanish, hydras vanish, traps vanish, hell, you could even take it > further and have summons die, EShield/TStorm/whatever expire, etc if you > want. They already have it set so that when you hostile your TPs vanish. Why > not just take that to the next level, and have hydras/traps/guideds vanish > as well? This seems to be the best way to handle it - I'm really surprised it's not this way already. Tonight my HC zon waas in the nightnare arcane alone, and a sorc logs on and asks for a WP. Well, I don't like doing that, so I usually leave one open in the beginning of the area (in this case, at the arcane WP), so she took that and started coming my way. So as I'm approaching her, I see a bunch of hydras. Hmm, what could POSSIBLY be going on? Needless to say not even one bolt hit me, and after the hydras were gone I sat by the arcane WP asking her to come back. Of course she wouldn't - trigger hackers do what they do because they suck otherwise at PvP. Trigger hacks isn't PvP, it's harassment. Companies that endorse harassment make baby Jeebus cry. Lex >Trigger hacks isn't PvP, it's harassment. In HC, it's vandalism. >Companies that endorse >harassment make baby Jeebus cry. They make money by accident, and call themselves geniuses... -- Roy L > > The simplest possible way - can't declare hostile until you've been in > > town for 5 seconds + (max possible hydra duration/ max possible Guided [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > not just take that to the next level, and have hydras/traps/guideds vanish > as well? Why? The answer is as simple as one word. BLIZZARD JUST DON'T CARE. (ok, there are four words, but whatever...) > > Xocyll > > -- > > I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of > > a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably, > > Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So > > FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr As far as I recall from one of the mac beta's (2nd one I think) Hydra's and GA did disappear on casting a TP. So maybe they will actually implement in 1.10 On 10/28/03 11:46, in article bnldr3$98k21@imsp212.netvigator.com, "MD-R Ar28senal v2.0b" <apis776@chevalier.net> wrote: > Why >> not just take that to the next level, and have hydras/traps/guideds vanish [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > BLIZZARD JUST DON'T CARE. (ok, there are four words, but whatever...) >> > The simplest possible way - can't declare hostile until you've been in >> > town for 5 seconds + (max possible hydra duration/ max possible Guided [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >BLIZZARD JUST DON'T CARE. (ok, there are four words, but whatever...) They do care. They _want_ to reward and encourage cheaters. Trigger has clearly been implemented deliberately, as it would have been simpler not to retarget existing attacks after hostile. -- Roy L > >> > The simplest possible way - can't declare hostile until you've been in > >> > town for 5 seconds + (max possible hydra duration/ max possible Guided [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > -- Roy L That may not be the case: since GA / hydra don't need a target when fired, she can fire some blank shots then "trigger" and now the GA / hydra has a proximate and valid target. There is no retargeting involved. "Shiflet" <rshiflet@charter.net> looked up from reading the entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say: >> The simplest possible way - can't declare hostile until you've been in >> town for 5 seconds + (max possible hydra duration/ max possible Guided [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >not just take that to the next level, and have hydras/traps/guideds vanish >as well? That would be better, but the reason I gave the hostile delay is that Blizzard already said they put in a delay (but made it short enough that trigger hacks can still work). It would be the work of _seconds_ to jump into the code and change that 5 second timer to 30 or 45 or whatever. Actually removing active spells/summons/etc would involve actual coding, which they could claim they don't have time for as they work hard on the 1.10 patch. There's no excuse at all for not boosting the timer to kill trigger hacks though, since it's not going to take away valuable coding time. At this point i've come to the belief that Blizzard employees make up the worst of the hackers and dupers; Why else didn't they stop e-bay sales of dupes? Why else would Blizzard refuse to remove commonly known dupes when LoD came out with the pathetic excuse of "well people bought them on E-bay and it wouldn't be fair to remove them"? If it was Blizzard employees that sold them on E-bay in the first place, then the lack of deletion makes a lot more sense "ethically". Why else would they claim to be sweeping for dupers/hackers, yet hardly ever actually nail anyone, not to mention the massive false positives. Oh sure they claim to ban cd-keys in the thousands, but duping and hacking doesn't ever seem to slow down. Why else would they take no action at all when duping methods were reported to them by Mickey and (damn I can't remember his name now), until those duping methods were known widely and brought the servers down? I'm thoroughly disgusted by Blizzard these days and I think it quite likely that I will never buy another product from them. Xocyll SignatureI don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably, Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr > "Shiflet" <rshiflet@charter.net> looked up from reading the entrails of > the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > until those duping methods were known widely and brought the servers > down? That would have been Chris Wilson. Between he and I, we reported just about every possible duping method LONG before it was used. The real problem here is that Blizzard seems to be under the FALSE impression that patches should come out once per decade and be all inclusive. Westwood, otoh, releases patches MUCH faster and they do so to fix one or two problems. If Blizzard was willing to do the same, holes in the code could be closed in a day instead of a year. Mickey >If Blizzard was willing to do the same, holes in the > code could be closed in a day instead of a year. > > Mickey You have any notion yet as to how well the current patch closes any of these holes? Signaturechainbreaker If you need to email, then chainbreaker (naturally) at comcast dot net--that's "net" not "com"--should do it. > >If Blizzard was willing to do the same, holes in the > > code could be closed in a day instead of a year. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > You have any notion yet as to how well the current patch closes any of these > holes? Not yet, but give me a few days to dig through the code, and I will get back to you. The real issue for me is whether they ported the fixex from 1.09 over to 1.10. If not, then ALL the old holes will have a rebirth. Mickey mickeyb@comcast.net (Mickey) looked up from reading the entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say: >> "Shiflet" <rshiflet@charter.net> looked up from reading the entrails of >> the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say: [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >problem here is that Blizzard seems to be under the FALSE impression >that patches should come out once per decade and be all inclusive. I'm not sure I really believe that since they did release quite a few patches quite quickly. Not to mention the various changes made on the realms without any formal patch. Since the duping issues are pretty much by definition a realms problem they would probably be fixed server side and there wouldn't be any kind of formal patch. >Westwood, otoh, releases patches MUCH faster and they do so to fix one >or two problems. If Blizzard was willing to do the same, holes in the >code could be closed in a day instead of a year. And there you have it, willingness. As I said above, I think the real problem is that Blizzard themselves are involved in all the hacking, duping and e-bay sales and as such they have no incentive at all to close the holes. They're pulling a Microsoft and counting on people forgetting the problems when the next game comes out. Funny how they can't seem to see that all the realm problems point to them being hopeless at any kind of online security and that's going to be a deathblow to any future pay-to-play game they try to run. People will put up with a certain amount of crap when the servers are free, but they expect it to be done right if they're paying. Xocyll SignatureI don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably, Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr >Shame that Blizzard seem to be among these a.sholes, since they could >stop all trigger hacks with almost no effort. Right. It is clear that Blizzard is deliberately encouraging and rewarding cheating. >The simplest possible way - can't declare hostile until you've been in >town for 5 seconds + (max possible hydra duration/ max possible Guided >arrow duration [Blizzard has these numbers]) I don't understand why existing attacks retarget after hostile. This is a bug that must have been _inserted_deliberately_, as it would obviously be simpler to just leave the targeting alone. >Of course Blizzard's actually "anti-trigger-hack" mode was to find the >minimum hostile delay that triggers could still work with and implement >that. > >This just points to one or more Blizzard programmers being Trigger-hack >PKs. There's no real doubt any more that at least one and probably more high-ranking Blizzard employees are among the most active trigger hack PKs. -- Roy L |
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