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Game Forum / Role Playing Games / Diablo 2 / May 2008A good build for a Druid
On previous postings to this group I asked about the viability of a pure fire Druid, and his chances completing the game in Hell. The consensus was that it just was not a good build. So, can anyone recommend a good Druid build. I have enjoyed playing a Fire Druid, and up to the end of Act 1 he walked it with ease..  SignatureHe spoke with a certain what-is-it in his voice, and I could see that, if not actually disgruntled, he was far from being gruntled. P.G. Wodehouse 1881 -1975 > On previous postings to this group I asked about the viability of a pure > fire Druid, and his chances completing the game in Hell. > The consensus was that it just was not a good build. > So, can anyone recommend a good Druid build. I have enjoyed playing a > Fire Druid, and up to the end of Act 1 he walked it with ease.. Winds are very powerful with the right gear, but what build isn't. My fav is the Buri-Wolf (werewolf with buriza). >> On previous postings to this group I asked about the viability of a pure >> fire Druid, and his chances completing the game in Hell. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Winds are very powerful with the right gear, but what build isn't. My fav > is the Buri-Wolf (werewolf with buriza). The wind druid is indeed a powerful build (max cyclone armour, tornado, hurricane and oak sage, one point in grizzly and vine of your choice, remaining points into twister for synergies) - PI/CIs are so rare you can usually proceed by going around the few that show up. I play a lot of melee chars and I find the werewolf a real glass cannon. Yes, with the right weapon (Buriza, Ribcracker or IK maul) he does a ton of damage, but without a shield he's much much more fragile than either a paladin (who usually has max resists and max block) or a barb (who has great crowd control with his warcries) or an assassin (who has no problem with PIs, a much better minion and an escape skill). Yes, a wolf can theoretically use a shield but there are no one-handed weapons which come close to maxing his damage output, because his attack speed tables are so biased in favour of two-handers. In addition, the druid has no skills which increase his def or his resists, which means that he gets hit a lot and it hurts (and he blocks nothing without a shield). The only defensive boost he has is Oak Sage, and when it dies his life suddenly drops dramatically. Fury is basically the same as Zeal, but the druid lacks any viable equivalent to Vengeance for dealing with PIs and bosses. I'm currently taking a werewolf through Hell with an up'd Ribcracker (IK maul waiting), and Fury's tendency to find multiple targets has nearly killed me several times when I really needed to whale on a hero to get rid of its aura. Fire claws is theoretically the way to deal with PIs, but by the time you've maxed Fury, Lycanthropy and Oak Sage you don't have enough to synergise Fire Claws properly. As others have said, druids are basically broken. When they added the druid and assassin in LoD, they got the assassin right - great new class, innovative skills, several viable builds (MA, trapper, BF each with multiple variants). But druids basically sucked. The wind druid came into being when 1.10 introduced synergies - IMO it remains the only viable druid build. But I have yet to try a werebear ... CC > The wind druid is indeed a powerful build (max cyclone armour, tornado, > hurricane and oak sage, one point in grizzly and vine of your choice, > remaining points into twister for synergies) - PI/CIs are so rare you can > usually proceed by going around the few that show up. Actually, I'm more offensive minded, so I'd max twister first and rest into oak(not that it matters for me, my windy is lvl 94 and has maxed oak AND all wind skills), but either way works, just depends on if going offense or defense. No vine on my windy, do have a point in bear though(only use it for bosses and Druid vs Druid duels, use wolves as my normal PvE minions). > I play a lot of melee chars and I find the werewolf a real glass cannon. > Yes, with the right weapon (Buriza, Ribcracker or IK maul) he does a ton > of damage, but without a shield he's much much more fragile than either a > paladin (who usually has max resists and max block) or a barb (who has > great crowd control with his warcries) or an assassin (who has no problem > with PIs, a much better minion and an escape skill). Whoa, I was with you on pally, kinda with you on barb, but ASSASSIN? Assuming similar levels of gear, a wolf will absolutely f.cking DOMINATE a melee sin in pretty much ANY situation that arises... > Yes, a wolf can theoretically use a shield but there are no one-handed > weapons which come close to maxing his damage output, because his attack > speed tables are so biased in favour of two-handers. Well, eBotD zerker axe works fine, but a tad costly. Couple of the other high end 1-hand runewords can work well too. > In addition, the druid has no skills which increase his def or his > resists, Yeah, you need resists on your gear and charms. Although you can get by with less than max resists because you have massive life and massive leech, if done right. > which means that he gets hit a lot and it hurts (and he blocks nothing > without a shield). The only defensive boost he has is Oak Sage, and when > it dies his life suddenly drops dramatically. My wolf druid has 3.5k life with NO oak sage up, that's as much or more as most of my other chars have even with BO active. With oak up, he has 5.5k life, and his oak very rarely dies. > Fury is basically the same as Zeal, but the druid lacks any viable > equivalent to Vengeance for dealing with PIs and bosses. Well, I haven't used vengeance to deal with PIs in ages, but you're right, the druid has fewer options there. Although, bosses aren't a problem, just use Fury. Any paladin using vengeance against a boss over smite OR zeal is either a pure avenger, incompetent or desperate for a challenge. > I'm currently taking a werewolf through Hell with an up'd Ribcracker (IK > maul waiting), and Fury's tendency to find multiple targets has nearly > killed me several times when I really needed to whale on a hero to get rid > of its aura. So do what most wolf players do and use Feral Rage(or Rabies/Fireclaws) if you need to kill a specific single target. Me, I find Fury more effective generally anyways, but if you MUST kill a single target faster, use one of those 3. > Fire claws is theoretically the way to deal with PIs, but by the time > you've maxed Fury, Lycanthropy and Oak Sage you don't have enough to > synergise Fire Claws properly. Evern unsynergized you can get it up to an okay amount of damage. Me, I'd just keep a high elemental damage weapon on switch though and fury with it. > As others have said, druids are basically broken. When they added the > druid and assassin in LoD, they got the assassin right - great new class, > innovative skills, several viable builds (MA, trapper, BF each with > multiple variants). But druids basically sucked. With comparable levels of gear, a melee druid is MUCH easier to play and more viable than a MA sin. There is a reason that you see far more wolf druids, or even BEAR druids, than you do MA sins. Course, in the grand scheme of things, melee druids and sins are much lower on the totem pole than other builds, you see far more windy's OR trappers than melee druid AND sins combined > The wind druid came into being when 1.10 introduced synergies - IMO it > remains the only viable druid build. Fascinating. The only problem my Fury druid really has is with areas with IM, pretty much any other area he can tear through. The problem is, for all intents and purposes, a Fury druid is basically just a more offensive minded and limited variant of a zealot without as much utility or variety. Its hard to make a melee druid that can do well at ANYTHING else, whereas pallies can hybrid MUCH more effectively. My most recent din has 8k zeal/13k charge with fana on, but can also unleash a 4k FoH with lvl 20 or so conviction. My ranger can fire off arrows that do 9k damage, but can then melee for 7k if something gets too close. There's also smite/hammer and charge/hammer hybrids, whereas pretty much all melee druids are JUST melee druids. And the only benefit they give to a party is through Oak Sage, whereas a pally can theoretically switch between his primary aura, possibly a secondary aura(as in the case of my melee/foher), cleansing, salvation, meditation, or vigor, depending on the situation and the paladin build. Makes them more party friendly, if there's already 1 pally running concentration, the other can run med or cleansing instead, whereas 2 druids you basically get oak, and...oak, unless you meet one of the few melee druids who went HoW instead of oak. > But I have yet to try a werebear ... Hell, I've tried a fire druid and it actually IS doable in small games, its just a little slower going. Won't solo 8 player hell games but that's not everyone's goal. > CC > "Magnate" <not@receiving.here> wrote in message >> I play a lot of melee chars and I find the werewolf a real glass cannon. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Assuming similar levels of gear, a wolf will absolutely f.cking DOMINATE a > melee sin in pretty much ANY situation that arises... Hmm, this is interesting. I must be playing my wolf wrong, or I lack crucial gear. I based my view on these: - the Shadow Master is way more useful than wolves or a grizzly - the Dragon Flight skill can be a lifesaver when you don't have teleport charges - the fact that Phoenix Strike can overcome any combination of immunities makes PIs a breeze (as far as they ever can be for melee chars, at least, unless you count Berserk) - the 'sin can use a shield with far less penalty to damage output than a wolf, and can block pretty effectively with dual claws - if you can max attack speed with gear, you can use Fade without sacrificing offensive power, which greatly improves resists I see all these as pointing in the assassin's favour. In the wolf's favour I see only two things: - your damage output is higher - your life total is higher Now, admittedly both of those are important, but I still find MA assassins (single or dual) much more effective in Hell than my wolf. I'd be interested to know what I'm missing. >> Yes, a wolf can theoretically use a shield but there are no one-handed >> weapons which come close to maxing his damage output, because his attack >> speed tables are so biased in favour of two-handers. > > Well, eBotD zerker axe works fine, but a tad costly. Couple of the other > high end 1-hand runewords can work well too. Hmm. I did an analysis of damage output over time, and because wolf's attack speeds are so biased in favour of two-handed weapons, the best one-hander I could find was Oath I think (I'm at work so don't have the spreadsheet to hand) - but I've never found any HRs so there are doubtless better weapons available. I found a Lightsabre the other day which may be a good one. When I did the analysis the best one-handed uniques I had were Frostwind, Rune Master (which is way slow) and Bloodmoon. >> In addition, the druid has no skills which increase his def or his >> resists, > > Yeah, you need resists on your gear and charms. Although you can get by > with less than max resists because you have massive life and massive > leech, if done right. True, but leech is useless vs undead and there are lots of those. >> which means that he gets hit a lot and it hurts (and he blocks nothing >> without a shield). The only defensive boost he has is Oak Sage, and when [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > most of my other chars have even with BO active. With oak up, he has 5.5k > life, and his oak very rarely dies. How do you manage that? My wolf (lvl 74, maxed Lyc) has only 1500 life with no sage, and ~2500 with it up. It dies every minute or two. >> Fury is basically the same as Zeal, but the druid lacks any viable >> equivalent to Vengeance for dealing with PIs and bosses. > > Well, I haven't used vengeance to deal with PIs in ages, but you're right, You've been playing Freezealots or Tesladins then? I'm a huge fan of Fanat, just love it. So I max it every time and tend to max Vengeance for PIs rather than HS/Conv. > the druid has fewer options there. Although, bosses aren't a problem, just > use Fury. Any paladin using vengeance against a boss over smite OR zeal is > either a pure avenger, incompetent or desperate for a challenge. Or wants to not be distracted by the rest of the crowd? Pallies don't have that great crowd control skills, so Zeal can actually do less damage per unit time than Vengeance against a boss in a crowd. Maybe this is just a style thing - I tend not to take the time to separate a boss from a crowd - I find it difficult and tedious to do that - so I want to whale on the boss while surrounded by the minions. When the boss is dead and the aura is gone, I'm happy to switch back to Zeal for the rest. That's why I miss a boss-killer skill which doesn't hit multiple targets when playing the wolf. >> I'm currently taking a werewolf through Hell with an up'd Ribcracker (IK >> maul waiting), and Fury's tendency to find multiple targets has nearly [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > generally anyways, but if you MUST kill a single target faster, use one of > those 3. Well, I'm finding Fire Claws ok but not as good as Vengeance. Rabies I've never tried, but I can't imagine it would be better than FC. Feral Rage is a good idea and one I'm embarrassed to have overlooked. Do I need more than 1 hard point in it? >> Fire claws is theoretically the way to deal with PIs, but by the time >> you've maxed Fury, Lycanthropy and Oak Sage you don't have enough to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > just keep a high elemental damage weapon on switch though and fury with > it. Yes, I might find PIs a lot easier once I reach lvl76 and use the IK Maul - the bonuses from the belt/boots/gloves gives a lot of elemental damage (plus leech, def, resists and other nice benefits). I could also try a Harmony bow. Those are the two best elemental damage weapons I have available, I think - grateful for tips on other reasonably findable ones. >> As others have said, druids are basically broken. When they added the >> druid and assassin in LoD, they got the assassin right - great new [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > than other builds, you see far more windy's OR trappers than melee druid > AND sins combined Well, maybe I've just spent too much time playing MA assassins. Like I said, I'd be grateful to understand why the wolf is considered so much better. >> The wind druid came into being when 1.10 introduced synergies - IMO it >> remains the only viable druid build. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > 2 druids you basically get oak, and...oak, unless you meet one of the few > melee druids who went HoW instead of oak. Agreed. I too have probs with IM. I just can't tear through other areas as easily as you. It's not the killing speed - I'm ok with that - it's the lack of defence, blocking and resists. I just get killed way too often and chew through potions. Maybe my gear is just not good enough, though it seems pretty good: Jalal's socketed w/ whatever resist item I can get (can't afford an UM so tend to use an Ort) Duress Laying On Hands String Of Ears War Travs Saracen's Chance or Crescent Moon (one with 2% IM, I forget which it is) Raven Frost Rare ring w/ 10/10/40/10 resists This still leaves me with resists of only about 35/10/35/0 and Def of ~3000 ... >> But I have yet to try a werebear ... > > Hell, I've tried a fire druid and it actually IS doable in small games, > its just a little slower going. Won't solo 8 player hell games but that's > not everyone's goal. Do you mean Fire Druid as in Volcano/Fissure/Armageddon or as in Fire Claws? If the former, what do you do about fire immunes? CC > - the Shadow Master is way more useful than wolves or a grizzly Better AI, but I actually find it's use of CoS and MB a huge annoyance(as do most baal runners, in pub games). > - the Dragon Flight skill can be a lifesaver when you don't have teleport > charges Maybe. > - the fact that Phoenix Strike can overcome any combination of immunities > makes PIs a breeze (as far as they ever can be for melee chars, at least, > unless you count Berserk) It's also a hassle to use, IMO. I'd rather just melee with a high ele weapon, same as I do with my paladins. > - the 'sin can use a shield with far less penalty to damage output than a > wolf, and can block pretty effectively with dual claws Thing is, claws have comparatively crap damage, period. With a good 1 hander and shield, a wolf will be doing a lot more damage than a melee sin of comparable wealth. > - if you can max attack speed with gear, you can use Fade without > sacrificing offensive power, which greatly improves resists Well, with a wolf, all your IAS comes from your weapon, so you don't NEED to devote ANY of your other gear to IAS. Means you can rely more on your other gear to cover your resists and such. > I see all these as pointing in the assassin's favour. In the wolf's favour > I see only two things: > > - your damage output is higher MUCH higher. Means while your sin may block more hits than my wolf does, she's also there TAKING the hits for a much longer period of time. You don't really need blocking when most mobs go down in a couple seconds. Plus I use a range 5 weapon, which means I can actually kill enemies before they even get in range to hit me, a nice bonus though often overlooked. > - your life total is higher Yep, means I can take more hits, and means I go into hit recovery a lot less often. > Now, admittedly both of those are important, but I still find MA assassins > (single or dual) much more effective in Hell than my wolf. I'd be > interested to know what I'm missing. Just gear, I guess. Cause a well geared wolf will absolutely destroy a well geared melee sin in basically all situations. My wolf has near max res, 5.5k life with oak, max FHR, 5 frame fury(4-13k damage), 11k rabies, lifetap, and lots of leech. He's just too dull to play for me, not enough variety or tactical use for him as most builds I play. > Hmm. I did an analysis of damage output over time, and because wolf's > attack speeds are so biased in favour of two-handed weapons, the best > one-hander I could find was Oath I think (I'm at work so don't have the > spreadsheet to hand) EBotD is faster than Oath, IIRC though not by much. A Grief PB is also a strong choice. > - but I've never found any HRs so there are doubtless better weapons > available. I found a Lightsabre the other day which may be a good one. > When I did the analysis the best one-handed uniques I had were Frostwind, > Rune Master (which is way slow) and Bloodmoon. Yeah, Rune Master is crap. Try a Baranar's Star perhaps, it gets decent speed. Lightsabre is a good anti-PI weapon. > True, but leech is useless vs undead and there are lots of those. Lifetap isn't useless vs undead, and I have it, too. > How do you manage that? My wolf (lvl 74, maxed Lyc) has only 1500 life > with no sage, and ~2500 with it up. It dies every minute or two. Basically all my stat points are in vita. At lvl 90 with gear on, he has something like 550 vita, plus a few life charms in his inventory, max Lycanthropy(~lvl 30), and oak sage of lvl 25 or so, plus whatever life he gets from gear. > You've been playing Freezealots or Tesladins then? I'm a huge fan of > Fanat, just love it. So I max it every time and tend to max Vengeance for > PIs rather than HS/Conv. Nope, played neither. I have 2 auradins which don't really count cause of the massive ele damage from their aura gear, but even my zeal/smiter and my ranger(on melee setup) just uses zeal+whatever ele damage he gets from charms and such. And that STILL kills PIs about as fast than my old ranger did with MAX vengeance and conviction. > Or wants to not be distracted by the rest of the crowd? I'd use smite or charge for single targeting over vengeance anyday. > Pallies don't have that great crowd control skills, so Zeal can actually > do less damage per unit time than Vengeance against a boss in a crowd. I'd rather kill the mob and hurt the boss in 10 seconds than spend 7 seconds killing the boss and another 10 killing the mob. > Maybe this is just a style thing - I tend not to take the time to separate > a boss from a crowd - I almost never do that. > I find it difficult and tedious to do that - so I want to whale on the > boss while surrounded by the minions. I'd rather whale on ALL of them and clear the entire herd than pick a single target, kill it, THEN deal with all the rest. > When the boss is dead and the aura is gone, Again, if I have to kill a single target for some reason(the only aura that really concerns my pallies enough to focus on a single target is Holy Freeze) I'll use smite or even charge over vengeance. > I'm happy to switch back to Zeal for the rest. That's why I miss a > boss-killer skill which doesn't hit multiple targets when playing the > wolf. Like I said, Fury, Feral Rage, or Fireclaws will all serve that purpose fine. > Well, I'm finding Fire Claws ok but not as good as Vengeance. Rabies I've > never tried, but I can't imagine it would be better than FC. My Rabies hits for around 5k physical plus another 11k poison. It works fine for when I just want to hit 1 target. > Feral Rage is a good idea and one I'm embarrassed to have overlooked. Do > I need more than 1 hard point in it? Nope, 1 hard point is plenty. > Yes, I might find PIs a lot easier once I reach lvl76 and use the IK > Maul - the bonuses from the belt/boots/gloves gives a lot of elemental > damage (plus leech, def, resists and other nice benefits). I could also > try a Harmony bow. Those are the two best elemental damage weapons I have > available, I think - grateful for tips on other reasonably findable ones. Baranars Star is cheap and has a lot of ele damage and isn't immensely rare, might try one of those too. Or just use something like Frostwind/Lightsabre(and just run from any dual PI/CI monsters you find). > Well, maybe I've just spent too much time playing MA assassins. Like I > said, I'd be grateful to understand why the wolf is considered so much > better. Hit much harder, much faster, and more durable. The assassin's higher defense doesn't grant her much of an advantage if she's spending 2-3x as long killing a mob as a druid does, and the fact of the matter is, unless she's hybriding into the traps line and letting Death Sentry do all the work(in which case, why not just make a trapper), a druid will kill MUCH faster than a similarly geared sin. Likewise he has massive life and massive leech so he can afford to take a few hits and not really be troubled by them. > Agreed. I too have probs with IM. I just can't tear through other areas as > easily as you. It's not the killing speed - I'm ok with that - it's the > lack of defence, blocking and resists. I just get killed way too often and > chew through potions. Maybe my gear is just not good enough, though it > seems pretty good: My killing speed and life makes up for the lack of defense and blocking. My res are maxed so that's not an issue, but even before I had them maxed it wasn't a real problem. > Jalal's socketed w/ whatever resist item I can get (can't afford an UM so > tend to use an Ort) Same on mine. I lucked out with a rare jewel, something like 8 res all, 40+ fire damage, and a couple other mods. > Duress I used this, then I got a Fort which adds a bit more res. > Laying On Hands Drac's for me. Lifetap basically makes any melee char near unstoppable in most situations. > String Of Ears I use it's big brother Verdungos. > War Travs Gore Riders all the way for me. > Saracen's Chance or Crescent Moon (one with 2% IM, I forget which it is) That's Saracens with the IM. I use Highlords myself. > Raven Frost Same. > Rare ring w/ 10/10/40/10 resists I have a a pretty incredible rare on mine, res all, dual leech, and strength, and AR. > This still leaves me with resists of only about 35/10/35/0 and Def of > ~3000 Well, def is basically irrelevant for the most part. A def of 10k isn't actually a huge boost over 3k, and a def of 20k is only very slightly better than 10k. That said, my druid's def is pretty much in the same range as yours. My res are maxed(or close to it at least), but then, I have an Anni and a Torch boosting mine, plus my armor gives me more than yours does(except cold), plus I think I have a few res all charms in inventory. > Do you mean Fire Druid as in Volcano/Fissure/Armageddon or as in Fire > Claws? If the former, what do you do about fire immunes? Yeah, fire as in fire elemental skills. Against fire immunes, I use a combination of merc, molten boulder, armageddon, and volcano, depending on the situation. Bit of a hassle, but it is doable, just somewhat slow. However, my fire druid has pretty much THE top level gear, too, without immensely high end gear I really think it would try my patience too much. > CC >> - the Shadow Master is way more useful than wolves or a grizzly > [quoted text clipped - 225 lines] > >> CC You're comparing a wolf to a ma assassin? Are you insane? You can walk hell with your ma assassin? Ma assassins are very poor without using skills in the lightning tree. Even with not that great. > You're comparing a wolf to a ma assassin? Are you insane? You can walk > hell with your ma assassin? Ma assassins are very poor without using > skills in the lightning tree. Even with not that great. 2 points: 1)You didn't need to quote our entire LOOOOONG discussion just to add this. A little snippage IS okay. 2)You replied to me, I was the one saying the wolf was better. If you're gonna reply to someone to argue with them, try replying to the right person next time? >> You're comparing a wolf to a ma assassin? Are you insane? You can walk >> hell with your ma assassin? Ma assassins are very poor without using [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > gonna reply to someone to argue with them, try replying to the right person > next time? True. Too lazy for all of that. I do admire your anal retentive tendencies though. Hey, but no typos!! > True. Too lazy for all of that. I do admire your anal retentive > tendencies though. Hey, but no typos!! Hey, if you want to discuss something, people tend to prefer it if you make sense. And replying to me with a dispute, even though I'm the one who agreed with you, isn't the best way to do it. >> True. Too lazy for all of that. I do admire your anal retentive >> tendencies though. Hey, but no typos!! > > Hey, if you want to discuss something, people tend to prefer it if you make > sense. And replying to me with a dispute, even though I'm the one who agreed > with you, isn't the best way to do it. I get it, assuming I care. > "Magnate" <not@receiving.here> wrote in message >> - the Shadow Master is way more useful than wolves or a grizzly > > Better AI, but I actually find it's use of CoS and MB a huge annoyance(as > do most baal runners, in pub games). Yeah, me too. My next MA sin is going to max Shadow Warrior instead, making her more party-friendly. >> - the fact that Phoenix Strike can overcome any combination of immunities >> makes PIs a breeze (as far as they ever can be for melee chars, at least, >> unless you count Berserk) > > It's also a hassle to use, IMO. I'd rather just melee with a high ele > weapon, same as I do with my paladins. Ah, well this is probably the key difference then. The main reason I love MA sins is because I love this skill. I can release exactly the element I want about 80% of the time, which means at least every couple of seconds. It's very satisfying and also great fun to watch, but brings on RSI worse than most builds. >> - the 'sin can use a shield with far less penalty to damage output than a >> wolf, and can block pretty effectively with dual claws > > Thing is, claws have comparatively crap damage, period. With a good 1 > hander and shield, a wolf will be doing a lot more damage than a melee sin > of comparable wealth. I guess so, since claw mastery doesn't apply to non-claw weapons. Druids suck at blocking though. >> - if you can max attack speed with gear, you can use Fade without >> sacrificing offensive power, which greatly improves resists > > Well, with a wolf, all your IAS comes from your weapon, so you don't NEED > to devote ANY of your other gear to IAS. Means you can rely more on your > other gear to cover your resists and such. Yeah, but as we have shown, you really need very high-end gear to max resists on a wolf. >> I see all these as pointing in the assassin's favour. In the wolf's >> favour I see only two things: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > before they even get in range to hit me, a nice bonus though often > overlooked. That's something I hadn't considered. Does a range 5 weapon have to be a spear or polearm? I have Arioc's Needle which has +4 skills but less damage than Obedience, which in turn does less damage than up'd Ribcracker or IK maul. But I might try and see if the extra range makes a difference. Out of interest, what range does a wolf have when using a bow? Many wolves use a Buriza rather than a Ribcracker, and even mine currently has Harmony on switch. >> - your life total is higher > > Yep, means I can take more hits, and means I go into hit recovery a lot > less often. Ooh, that's another good point. Hit recovery is triggered when you lose more than 20% life in one hit? Or more than 10%? I forget. I also forget whether it's current life or max life. Never mind, I can look it up. >> Now, admittedly both of those are important, but I still find MA >> assassins (single or dual) much more effective in Hell than my wolf. I'd [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > well geared melee sin in basically all situations. My wolf has near max > res, 5.5k Yes, just gear I think we agree. And experience - I've played a lot of MA assassins, and only one wolf. >> Hmm. I did an analysis of damage output over time, and because wolf's >> attack speeds are so biased in favour of two-handed weapons, the best [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > EBotD is faster than Oath, IIRC though not by much. A Grief PB is also a > strong choice. Yeah but BotD needs a Zod, which renders it pretty much unachievable without a lot of trading, which I don't do. I can't recall the runes for Grief off the top of my head, but there's at least one HR in there. >> - but I've never found any HRs so there are doubtless better weapons >> available. I found a Lightsabre the other day which may be a good one. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Yeah, Rune Master is crap. Try a Baranar's Star perhaps, it gets decent > speed. Lightsabre is a good anti-PI weapon. Ah yes, Baranar's is on my list to look out for. Shouldn't be too long now. (Heh, now it will probably be the last item I ever find.) >> True, but leech is useless vs undead and there are lots of those. > > Lifetap isn't useless vs undead, and I have it, too. Again, there's a very limited set of kit that provides this - Dracul's, a wand on switch, maybe a circlet? Not sure about the latter, but it would have to be damn good to beat Jalal's. >> How do you manage that? My wolf (lvl 74, maxed Lyc) has only 1500 life >> with no sage, and ~2500 with it up. It dies every minute or two. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Lycanthropy(~lvl 30), and oak sage of lvl 25 or so, plus whatever life he > gets from gear. Right. I have ~140 stat points in STR and the rest in VIT, and I'm 16 levels (80 points) behind you, so about 220 vit short. That's quite a lot of life. >> You've been playing Freezealots or Tesladins then? I'm a huge fan of >> Fanat, just love it. So I max it every time and tend to max Vengeance for [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > charms and such. And that STILL kills PIs about as fast than my old ranger > did with MAX vengeance and conviction. Oh. Interesting. I'll skip Vengeance on my next pally then. >> Or wants to not be distracted by the rest of the crowd? > > I'd use smite or charge for single targeting over vengeance anyday. Don't you need a lot of CB for smite/charge to be useful? The actual physical damage output is very low, even for elite shields. Do you switch to your elemental damage weapon to smite bosses? I gave up building a smiter when I read advice about "smite is not a good primary killing skill" and such. I'm not sure if I have the right kit for smite/charge to be a useful boss-killing skill. My Gris pally has no CB at all I think, and my non-Gris pallies tend to have only the 15% on Duress. >> Pallies don't have that great crowd control skills, so Zeal can actually >> do less damage per unit time than Vengeance against a boss in a crowd. > > I'd rather kill the mob and hurt the boss in 10 seconds than spend 7 > seconds killing the boss and another 10 killing the mob. Ah. I look at total risk rather than total time. An Extra Strong or Mana Burn boss is a real pain (not to mention Might or Fanat), so I try to get rid of them asap so that the minions lose those characteristics. The rest of the fight then becomes a lot less dangerous. >> I find it difficult and tedious to do that - so I want to whale on the >> boss while surrounded by the minions. > > I'd rather whale on ALL of them and clear the entire herd than pick a > single target, kill it, THEN deal with all the rest. I guess there is a tipping point when your build is powerful enough to do that. Currently I *need* to pick off bosses first because I can't survive the time it takes to take on the whole mob without doing so. >> Well, I'm finding Fire Claws ok but not as good as Vengeance. Rabies I've >> never tried, but I can't imagine it would be better than FC. > > My Rabies hits for around 5k physical plus another 11k poison. It works > fine for when I just want to hit 1 target. Have you maxed Rabies then? >> Yes, I might find PIs a lot easier once I reach lvl76 and use the IK >> Maul - the bonuses from the belt/boots/gloves gives a lot of elemental [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > rare, might try one of those too. Or just use something like > Frostwind/Lightsabre(and just run from any dual PI/CI monsters you find). Ah good, I have both of those. Will experiment. Presumably Tiamat's is a good shield to use with them for additional damage, since I won't be blocking anything due to lack of Dex. >> Well, maybe I've just spent too much time playing MA assassins. Like I >> said, I'd be grateful to understand why the wolf is considered so much [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > massive leech so he can afford to take a few hits and not really be > troubled by them. In which case my wolf is just not well enough equipped yet. Also has probably put too many points in STR and lost some life as a result (which means more hit recovery animations etc.). >> Agreed. I too have probs with IM. I just can't tear through other areas >> as easily as you. It's not the killing speed - I'm ok with that - it's [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > My res are maxed so that's not an issue, but even before I had them maxed > it wasn't a real problem. I don't think I have good enough items to max my resists. >> Jalal's socketed w/ whatever resist item I can get (can't afford an UM so >> tend to use an Ort) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I used this, then I got a Fort which adds a bit more res. Again, I can't remember the runs for Fortitude, but I know I don't have at least one. >> Laying On Hands > > Drac's for me. Lifetap basically makes any melee char near unstoppable in > most situations. Never found a Drac's, but agree that Lifetap is awesome. >> String Of Ears > > I use it's big brother Verdungos. Again, never found one. >> War Travs > > Gore Riders all the way for me. These are only exceptional aren't they? Not found these yet. >> Saracen's Chance or Crescent Moon (one with 2% IM, I forget which it is) > > That's Saracens with the IM. I use Highlords myself. Hmm. I have a Highlord's, but I currently need the resists on Saracen's (18% all vs. 35% lightning). >> Raven Frost > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > better than 10k. That said, my druid's def is pretty much in the same > range as Agreed that Def isn't worth much worrying about. I have built an iron barb (max Shout, Conc, BO, Iron Skin, Defiant merc) who has about 30k Def (45k when attacking) and I do notice him being hit less often, but that's about the only build where Def makes much difference. > yours. My res are maxed(or close to it at least), but then, I have an Anni > and a Torch boosting mine, plus my armor gives me more than yours > does(except cold), plus I think I have a few res all charms in inventory. Much of your kit is godly - it's all elite except the Gore Riders and Jalal's. I guess there's nothing stopping me finding Dracul's or Verdungo's except time, but I don't anticipate making Fortitude any time soon. Nor am I ever likely to find a Torch or Anni, since I play mostly offline. So maxing my resists is a distant dream, which is probably what makes the difference between the survivability of our builds (that and the big life difference, I think). >> Do you mean Fire Druid as in Volcano/Fissure/Armageddon or as in Fire >> Claws? If the former, what do you do about fire immunes? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > However, my fire druid has pretty much THE top level gear, too, without > immensely high end gear I really think it would try my patience too much. Interesting. I'm not sure I'll be building many more druids (maybe another wolf to keep STR lower and max Rabies instead of Fire Claws). CC > Yeah, me too. My next MA sin is going to max Shadow Warrior instead, > making her more party-friendly. Tad more friendly that way, aye. > Ah, well this is probably the key difference then. The main reason I love > MA sins is because I love this skill. I can release exactly the element I > want about 80% of the time, which means at least every couple of seconds. > It's very satisfying and also great fun to watch, but brings on RSI worse > than most builds. I find the whole martial arts charge up skill concept itself hugely obnoxious, hence my overall disdain for MA assassins. > I guess so, since claw mastery doesn't apply to non-claw weapons. Druids > suck at blocking though. So do sins, if using shield. Only way you'll hit max block is a JMoD or Stormshield, and even those require a LOT of dex. > Yeah, but as we have shown, you really need very high-end gear to max > resists on a wolf. Just reroll small charms till you get decent +res ones. > That's something I hadn't considered. Does a range 5 weapon have to be a > spear or polearm? I think only spear/polearms hit range 5, but offhand I'm not honestly certain. > I have Arioc's Needle which has +4 skills but less damage than Obedience, > which in turn does less damage than up'd Ribcracker or IK maul. But I > might try and see if the extra range makes a difference. Well, I think the upped Ribcracker is probably the best of the lot, even with the lower range. > Out of interest, what range does a wolf have when using a bow? Many wolves > use a Buriza rather than a Ribcracker, and even mine currently has Harmony > on switch. You know, I'm not actually sure... > Ooh, that's another good point. Hit recovery is triggered when you lose > more than 20% life in one hit? Or more than 10%? I forget. I also forget > whether it's current life or max life. Never mind, I can look it up. Yea, 20% IIRC. > Yeah but BotD needs a Zod, which renders it pretty much unachievable > without a lot of trading, which I don't do. I can't recall the runes for > Grief off the top of my head, but there's at least one HR in there. Actually, as far as HRs go, Zod is one of the cheaper ones. > Again, there's a very limited set of kit that provides this - Dracul's, a > wand on switch, maybe a circlet? Not sure about the latter, but it would > have to be damn good to beat Jalal's. Drac's or Wand. Marrowwalk boots have them too, I believe. > Right. I have ~140 stat points in STR and the rest in VIT, and I'm 16 > levels (80 points) behind you, so about 220 vit short. That's quite a lot > of life. I do get a fair amount of life/vita from gear and charms too. I know Fort alone adds over 100 life, plus at least 10 vita on both torch and anni(don't recall exact stats on them) plus whatever life charms I have. > Oh. Interesting. I'll skip Vengeance on my next pally then. Yeah, I used to consider it a 1 point wonder, but now I don't think my smiter or my ranger have points there at all. > Don't you need a lot of CB for smite/charge to be useful? It helps smite, but charge is based on your weapon damage. If you have a strong zeal, your charge will hit single targets harder, even with just 1 point. > The actual physical damage output is very low, even for elite shields. Depends on what gear you have. My auradin has 1 point smite and still does around 1k with his shield, plus combined with a little CB it can take down enemies well enough. > Do you switch to your elemental damage weapon to smite bosses? Nope, cause ele damage doesn't boost smite. > I gave up building a smiter when I read advice about "smite is not a good > primary killing skill" and such. I'm not sure if I have the right kit for > smite/charge to be a useful boss-killing skill. My Gris pally has no CB at > all I think, and my non-Gris pallies tend to have only the 15% on Duress. CB is really where ANY melee build shines, all my meleers have some somewhere. >> My Rabies hits for around 5k physical plus another 11k poison. It works >> fine for when I just want to hit 1 target. > > Have you maxed Rabies then? Yeah. > Ah good, I have both of those. Will experiment. Presumably Tiamat's is a > good shield to use with them for additional damage, since I won't be > blocking anything due to lack of Dex. Yep, Tiamats is in fact the shield my druid keeps on switch. > I don't think I have good enough items to max my resists. Use pgems to reroll charms, can make up a lot of res that way. >>> War Travs >> >> Gore Riders all the way for me. > > These are only exceptional aren't they? Not found these yet. Only exceptional, but best boots in game for almost all melee builds. > Hmm. I have a Highlord's, but I currently need the resists on Saracen's > (18% all vs. 35% lightning). Since lightning is pretty much the most dangerous element in D2, I'd honestly prefer 35 lightning and ~30% deadly strike over 18 all. > Agreed that Def isn't worth much worrying about. I have built an iron barb > (max Shout, Conc, BO, Iron Skin, Defiant merc) who has about 30k Def (45k > when attacking) and I do notice him being hit less often, but that's about > the only build where Def makes much difference. Yeah, unless you're getting up in the 30k+ range of def, the difference is pretty negligible. > Much of your kit is godly - it's all elite except the Gore Riders and > Jalal's. I guess there's nothing stopping me finding Dracul's or > Verdungo's except time, but I don't anticipate making Fortitude any time > soon. Nor am I ever likely to find a Torch or Anni, since I play mostly > offline. Playing offline is far too limiting, IMO. That said, I'm sure there's some mod that enables you to open the uber portals in single player, and you can actually make an uber killing paladin realllly cheaply. My friend Greg literally got his first torch of this current season on 3rd day of ladder, using a paladin he started on day 1 with just gear he found himself. > Interesting. I'm not sure I'll be building many more druids (maybe another > wolf to keep STR lower and max Rabies instead of Fire Claws). Well, building a fire ele druid is only for people who really have patience and want something different, cause even with maximum top end gear(I'm talking perfect 5/5 facet'ed ravenlore, enigma, high torch and anni, 8x 35-45 life ele gcs, etc) it's not a real fast killer in most instances. > CC > On previous postings to this group I asked about the viability of a pure > fire Druid, and his chances completing the game in Hell. > The consensus was that it just was not a good build. > So, can anyone recommend a good Druid build. I have enjoyed playing a > Fire Druid, and up to the end of Act 1 he walked it with ease.. Wind druid is one of the strongest builds in the game. Max tornado, hurricane, cyclone armor, and either twister or oak sage, with the rest of your points going into the other. You'll want one in spirit wolves for sure, possibly one in dire wolves or bear as well. >> On previous postings to this group I asked about the viability of a pure >> fire Druid, and his chances completing the game in Hell. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >your points going into the other. You'll want one in spirit wolves for sure, >possibly one in dire wolves or bear as well. What he said. I like windies. Things will be a little slow if you are soloing up to 30, but once you get Hurricane you rip right through to the end of NM, and soloing Hell is very viable with his strong physical and cold attacks. I find it handy to have a point in Carrion Vine both to keep my life topped up (I only play HC) and to deal with revivers. You can often save some skill points by keeping an eye out for good pelts. Always look at the white and grey ones, not just the magicals. -- Roy L > snipped > What he said. I like windies. Things will be a little slow if you [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > -- Roy L I am at level 11 and it does seem a bit tough and slow with this build. I've put him on the shelf for the time being, but I'll have another go with him tonight. Thanks for the info. Peter SignatureHe spoke with a certain what-is-it in his voice, and I could see that, if not actually disgruntled, he was far from being gruntled. P.G. Wodehouse 1881 -1975 |
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