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Game Forum / Role Playing Games / Diablo 2 / January 2008How powerful are Summoners?
With some of the discussions lately about different builds, and giving advice to a struggling summoner, I thought I'd give one more example of how powerful summoners are. I'm playing one now (he's in Act V Normal), and using only what I find, buy, or gamble. In Act I Normal, I luckily found the following two items: 1) A wand with +3 Raise Skeleton, +3 Corpse Explosion, +1 Teeth, 1 OS 2) A "handbag" w/+3 Raise Skeleton, +1 Amp Damage, +1 Teeth. Playing him untweaked, these could very well still be in use when I finish the game. Not too many builds leave Act 1 Normal with end-game weapons and shields. > With some of the discussions lately about different builds, and giving > advice to a struggling summoner, I thought I'd give one more example [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Not too many builds leave Act 1 Normal with end-game weapons and > shields. A summoner taking down the ubers. http://youtube.com/watch?v=bNQ2fCngwtM > With some of the discussions lately about different builds, and giving > advice to a struggling summoner, I thought I'd give one more example [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Not too many builds leave Act 1 Normal with end-game weapons and > shields. Reading some of the builds available for this game that are free to read at various sites, I am always amazed at some of the equipment that the writers of these guides deem to be essential. Amulets, rings armour and weapons I never see as a SP MF player. Reading some of these guides, makes it seem they are talking about a totally different game. But then, I use a Mac, and it's not possible to mule with a Mac. Alas, > > With some of the discussions lately about different builds, and giving > > advice to a struggling summoner, I thought I'd give one more example [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I play exclusively SP, so I know what you mean, especially when it comes to runewords. I love these guides that say "wear an Enigma and have a Last Wish". My current summoner is in Act I Nightmare, and the highest rune I've found so far is an Amn. I'm level 50, and I haven't even been able to make a Lore helm yet, for Pete's sake! >>> With some of the discussions lately about different builds, and giving >>> advice to a struggling summoner, I thought I'd give one more example [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > highest rune I've found so far is an Amn. I'm level 50, and I haven't > even been able to make a Lore helm yet, for Pete's sake! Don't count on the valued items dropping. It won't happen. That's what I hate most about this game. If you're just SP then try ATMA or Hero Editor. With each you can create any item in the game. It's cheating but fun too. >>>> With some of the discussions lately about different builds, and giving >>>> advice to a struggling summoner, I thought I'd give one more example [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Editor. With each you can create any item in the game. It's cheating but > fun too. I've been playing SP for years, started again a few months ago (I mean totally from scratch, an empty atma stash and such). Believe me, it IS possible to get a good bunch of excellent equipment using atma. Runewords is something different, months of playing resulted in one Cresent Moon and now I've to start all over collecting all these El's and Eld's And as others have pointed out: as long as you don't edit or create anything with atma, it is not considered cheating! ;) Oh, don't know if it was said to you before.. when I start a new SP character, I immediately switch to 8player mode (/players 8) so the game acts AS IF 8 players are active. Monsters are more difficult but the rewards are better. And your experience builds up very fast. regards, Marcel > > With some of the discussions lately about different builds, and giving > > advice to a struggling summoner, I thought I'd give one more example [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > totally different game. > But then, I use a Mac, and it's not possible to mule with a Mac. Alas, Peter, I played SP on a Mac for a long time - it is a MUCH different game that way - far fewer options, and there's nothing quite like finding set items that you have to throw away for lack of stash space, only to find more of the same set not long after. I play on the realms now, and would not go back. It's too hard to sustain interest after seeing the possibilities on line. Not to mention mules (I'm running close to fifty mules this ladder, and others have much more). As far as I know, there's no ATMA equivalent available on the Mac (I think there was some effort made a while back to port it, but sounds like that petered out - if you'll pardon the expression :) If you're not interested in partying with others, you can still play alone on the realms and have the possibilities for muling. But it is a lot of fun to interact with agd folks, and they're a pretty generous lot (on all the realms, but I think the largest agd community is on US West these days). I still use a Mac, but supplement with a PC laptop so that I can rush mules for forge drops and mule easier without risking temporary realm bans. That also allows you to build your own enchantress and Battle Orders barb to buff new characters to get them up in level faster (if you find yourself bored with playing the early characters 'legit'). Regards, Bruce > But then, I use a Mac, and it's not possible to mule with a Mac. Alas, It is with two Macs though :-)  SignatureCarol "If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth. Particularly if the thing is cats." - Lemony Snicket _The Wide Window_ > With some of the discussions lately about different builds, and giving > advice to a struggling summoner, I thought I'd give one more example [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Not too many builds leave Act 1 Normal with end-game weapons and > shields. I think my summoner still has the same wand and "handbag" :) that he got in Act I as well. It's nice not having to worry about gear, especially on my first character. One thing I can't help but wonder, though, is how in the world can a truly solo player (no summoned creatures) get through some of the parts of this game? Sure, you have a hireling, but good lord, there are times when I am swamped by creatures, yet they almost never touch me because all my skeletons are taking care of them for me. I can only imagine how difficult parts of this game must be for any other class. > One thing I can't help but wonder, though, is how in the world can a truly > solo player (no summoned creatures) get through some of the parts of this > game? A solo Necromancer, or a solo player in general? > Sure, you have a hireling, but good lord, there are times when I am > swamped by creatures, yet they almost never touch me because all my > skeletons are taking care of them for me. I can only imagine how difficult > parts of this game must be for any other class. You also have to remember each class has their own strengths, as well. A barb usually has BO and Shout, giving him immense life and defense, and will most likely have life leech items so they get back health with every attack. Pallies will have Holy Shield, giving them very high defense and high block, plus Zeal gives them a ridiculously fast attack speed that hits multiple foes, and will likewise be using life leech items. Sorceresses can just teleport away from groups, and lay waste to enemies with AoE spells. Druids have summons too, and very high life thanks to Oak Sage. Etc etc etc. >> One thing I can't help but wonder, though, is how in the world can a truly >> solo player (no summoned creatures) get through some of the parts of this >> game? > > A solo Necromancer, or a solo player in general? I mean any class that has to fight through the game by itself, with maybe just the hireling to help. > I mean any class that has to fight through the game by itself, with maybe > just the hireling to help. Well, then what I was saying applies, other classes have their own strenghts that let them do it. Barbs have higher life, more defense, and usually life leech items as well. Melee pallies, generally speaking, have higher life, higher def, and higher block than necros, plus very fast attack, and again, life leech items let them take hits more readily than a necro can. And hdins just do ridiculous amounts of unblockable, resistance ignoring damage and can just use Redemption when they run low on life and mana. Sorcs can teleport out of harms way, or use energy shield to reduce damage taken, and have high AoE spells to clear groups quickly. Druids usually have very high life plus their own summons(not as strong as a necromancers, but they can still tank and serve as distractions) as well. Zons have decoy and valk to distract monsters, and dodge/avoid/evade to avoid getting hit. Sins have cloak of shadows, mindblast, and a shadow, all of which can serve to protect them and reduce the number of incoming attacks. While summoner necros might have the easiest time of it, every class has it's own ways of dealing with things, it's just a matter of using what they have available. > Well, then what I was saying applies, other classes have their own strenghts > that let them do it. Good point. But I would think it might take longer to clear an area of a larger group of monsters than it does with the necromancer. CE in addition to all the extra minions you've summoned really goes fast. But I'm close to beating the game, so I can start over with another class and see for myself. Btw, if I beat the game in SP offline mode, do I still get to start an online game in NM mode? >> Well, then what I was saying applies, other classes have their own strenghts >> that let them do it. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >But I'm close to beating the game, so I can start over with another >class and see for myself. Close to finishing Hell diff in SP? That's not easy for a beginner. >Btw, if I beat the game in SP offline mode, do I still get to start an >online game in NM mode? No, because you can't use the same char. -- Roy L >>> Well, then what I was saying applies, other classes have their own strenghts >>> that let them do it. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Close to finishing Hell diff in SP? That's not easy for a beginner. Heh, no, still on Normal. >> Btw, if I beat the game in SP offline mode, do I still get to start an >> online game in NM mode? > > No, because you can't use the same char. Ugh, I didn't realize you had to keep using the same character. But I guess that makes sense. It's not just a harder difficulty, right? It requires that the character be of a higher level than starting at level 1, right? > Ugh, I didn't realize you had to keep using the same character. But I > guess that makes sense. It's not just a harder difficulty, right? It > requires that the character be of a higher level than starting at > level 1, right? I believe you misunderstood. You can not use SP toons on the realms, nor use your realm toons in offline games. Therefore, if you decide to start playing online, you will have to start a fresh toon at level 1. You can use your SP toons on open b-net, that is if you like playing with people with hacked gear and stats and such. I find open b-net pretty much a waste of time. Technically, I guess you could use open B-net to mule for SP toons, but I would not recommend it unless there is someone on open that know and trust. If the creator of a game on open b-net exits his/her game, the game goes poof so you wouldnt want to jump into any ol game to mule. Anyways, to make a long explanation short, come join us on the realms, they are plenty of us that would be willing to help in any way you would need. Ray >> Ugh, I didn't realize you had to keep using the same character. But I >> guess that makes sense. It's not just a harder difficulty, right? It >> requires that the character be of a higher level than starting at >> level 1, right? > > I believe you misunderstood. I was wondering if it was possible to start a NM game online after you've beaten the Normal game offline. I know you can't use the same character offline and online, but I wasn't even thinking about the character. I was just thinking that once you beat the game on Normal, NM was unlocked for any new characters. >>> Ugh, I didn't realize you had to keep using the same character. But >>> I guess that makes sense. It's not just a harder difficulty, right? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > character. I was just thinking that once you beat the game on Normal, > NM was unlocked for any new characters. In a word, No. It's not like Halo where you unlock a new level. The game has 3 stages/difficulties. Most people don't consider the game finished with a certain character unless they finish all 5 acts in all 3 difficulties. Most chars actually don't start to shine with their skills until they hit 60ish so any char that finishes Normal is just in it's infancy. John Salerno <johnjsal@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in news:4792beda$0$6375 $607ed4bc@cv.net: >>> Ugh, I didn't realize you had to keep using the same character. But I >>> guess that makes sense. It's not just a harder difficulty, right? It [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > character. I was just thinking that once you beat the game on Normal, NM > was unlocked for any new characters. No, each toon has to beat Normal before it can go into NM. You cannot beat normal with a necro then make a pally and start in NM. > >> Ugh, I didn't realize you had to keep using the same character. But I > >> guess that makes sense. It's not just a harder difficulty, right? It [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > character. I was just thinking that once you beat the game on Normal, NM > was unlocked for any new characters. No, only for the char. that finished normal. And besides, to take a beginning char. strait into NM would = instant death with the first monster it ran across. IIRC, in D1, at one time, you could do that and I tried it. I died so fast and did 0 damage, so I had to play normal all the way through. wizofwas >I was wondering if it was possible to start a NM game online after >you've beaten the Normal game offline. I know you can't use the same >character offline and online, but I wasn't even thinking about the >character. I was just thinking that once you beat the game on Normal, NM >was unlocked for any new characters. Each game, offline and on, is created with and for an individual char, and reflects that char's quest status. Chars that have killed Baal for the quest in a given difficulty can still create games in that difficulty, or the next. -- Roy L >>>> Well, then what I was saying applies, other classes have their own strenghts >>>> that let them do it. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Heh, no, still on Normal. The NM game is different, and the Hell game quite different again. Most chars only come into their own with the completion of their skill synergies. -- Roy L > The NM game is different, and the Hell game quite different again. Are they different in any way other than difficulty? >> The NM game is different, and the Hell game quite different again. > > Are they different in any way other than difficulty? Yep, lots of items only drop in the higher difficulties. >>> The NM game is different, and the Hell game quite different again. >> Are they different in any way other than difficulty? > > Yep, lots of items only drop in the higher difficulties. Hmm, I'm not sure I have the desire to play through the game three times with the same character. Even with more powerful skills, it's still basically the same skill set. There doesn't seem like enough variety to make it all that fun. Playing through again with a different character would be okay, but doing that won't let you get too far past level 30. :( > Hmm, I'm not sure I have the desire to play through the game three times > with the same character. Even with more powerful skills, it's still > basically the same skill set. There doesn't seem like enough variety to > make it all that fun. For many builds, the skill set gets rather different, actually. For example, a wind druid in normal won't be doing much of anything, because tornado is basically useless damage wise if not maxed and synergized, whereas tornados cast by a high level wind druid in hell will make short work of anything not physical immune even in full games. Plus, at higher levels, things that limit builds early on, like lack of mana, become much less of a problem. And the better items and tougher difficulty are rather the incentive to play. You won't be meeting monsters with elemental or physical immunities in normal(except for very rare boss spawns), nor will you be finding the really potent weapons and armors. > Hmm, I'm not sure I have the desire to play through the game three times > with the same character. Even with more powerful skills, it's still > basically the same skill set. There doesn't seem like enough variety to > make it all that fun. Playing through again with a different character > would be okay, but doing that won't let you get too far past level 30. :( Besides equipment and other issues Shiflet suggested, IMHO, the key difference in these difficulty levels are game play and tactics. In normal, unless you play a summoning necromancer, quite likely you'll just be using the most basic attack skills against simple creatures. Except a few dangerous monsters such as Duriel, Diablo, Ancients, it's quite like a demo, a warm up, a walk in the park. You haven't seen anything yet after finishing this difficulty. Nightmare is where you start to experience the game. How you allocate skill/stats, how you attack and defend (or retreat) starts to make differences. Monsters become tougher, less dumb, and occasionally will be immune to your mode of attack, forcing you to go for plan B. IMHO it's the part with the most fun. Hell is hell. An ordinary zombie outside the town gate may take quite a while to kill, and can be un-killable if your char is one dimensional and it's immune to your sole mode of attack. They hit damn hard. A monster that does negligible damage in Normal can dish out 500-800 damage under the 'right' situation in Hell. Your mightily NM hero can be one hit KO'ed before you know what's happened. Without uber equipment and extensive experience, you will need caution, tactic, and patience to move on. It's hard, but is challenging. It's a whole different ball game compared to Normal. To give an example, the Zombie named above has 7-12 life and nearly no defense (50% poison resistance) in Normal. He has 551-787 life and 422 defense (75% poison resistance) in Nightmare. In Hell, he has 3238-6168 life, 1k defense, and immune to cold attack (has 50% resistance to physical attack and 75% resistance in poison). Conclusion: You haven't played the game if you haven't been in Hell yet. This is among the reasons why this game is still on the shelves 10+ years after it was first launched. Bing > Hell is hell. An ordinary zombie outside the town gate may take quite a > while to kill, and can be un-killable if your char is one dimensional and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > hard, but is challenging. It's a whole different ball game compared to > Normal. Oh, also, at this point in the game you have to start paying attention to your resistances. In normal, you don't usually need big resistances except for a select few areas(Diablo, Baal) and even those are doable with lowish res. Now, get to nightmare, and your resistances START at -40(then -100 in hell), making elemental damage monsters much more fearsome. The monsters with elemental attacks will be doing more damage to begin with than their normal counterparts, then add to the fact that your resistances are in the negatives means you'll be taking substantially more damage than you will if you raise your resistances up. Plus, many monsters, especially in hell, start having elemental damage added to their regular attacks, making something that only dealt physical damage in normal, such as a rogue spearwoman, now able to deal lightning damage as well. And this is the normal enemies, not even counting the bosses. > To give an example, the Zombie named above has 7-12 life and nearly no > defense (50% poison resistance) in Normal. He has 551-787 life and 422 > defense (75% poison resistance) in Nightmare. In Hell, he has 3238-6168 > life, 1k defense, and immune to cold attack (has 50% resistance to > physical attack and 75% resistance in poison). And if you get a boss one, they can spawn with more mods than bosses in normal. If you got a boss version of the above zombie for example, his regular life will be doubled for him being a boss, then he might spawn with stone skin(making it immune to physical as well as cold damage and doubling it's defense), fanatacism(boosting the attack speed, attack rate, and damage of himself and all nearby monsters), and extra strong(multiplying his damage by 2.5 and raising the damage of his mob by 75%) mods. Also, monsters heal faster, meaning you need to either kill fast, have an item with "prevent monster heal" mod, or have a source of poison damage/open wounds to prevent them from regenerating. > Bing > >>> The NM game is different, and the Hell game quite different again. > >> Are they different in any way other than difficulty? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > make it all that fun. Playing through again with a different character > would be okay, but doing that won't let you get too far past level 30. :( IMHO, you haven't played the game till you've soloed Hell. Once you get to Hell, it makes Normal and NM seem like a cake walk. Example, I just got my Strafer to Hell, she just waltzed through the first 2 lvls. But in Act 1 Hell, I'm having a hard time keeping my Merc. alive and I have to use different tactics in areas or I'll die real fast. Resistance's also become very important, esp. fire and lightning. The monsters may look the same but they are anything but the same. Very few builds can take on the "Dolls", "Okies" and "Glomes". Even if they can, nobody likes to battle them. And the "Snakes" at Nillys are nothing to sneeze at either. Never mind worrying about Nillys CE while you're at it. And then there's the crafting, if you want to do it. Lvl 92 is the min. optimal lvl to craft. And MF if you want to do that for items. 400 FM is the optimal for that. But more is still better. wizofwas > Very few builds can take on the > "Dolls", "Okies" and "Glomes". Even if they can, nobody likes to > battle them. Well I guess technically, okies only really annoy melee chars like zealots and fury druids, and pure cold sorcs(since they're cold immune, pure cold sorc can't kill em, and can't rely on merc either due to IM), everything else really doesn't have a reason to fear them. > wizofwas > > Very few builds can take on the > > "Dolls", "Okies" and "Glomes". Even if they can, nobody likes to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > sorc can't kill em, and can't rely on merc either due to IM), everything > else really doesn't have a reason to fear them. I guess I included them because most people use an Act 2 merc and they do die easily to IM and of course any melee char. fears them. Nobody likes a one hit and kill yourself. :) wizofwas >>>> The NM game is different, and the Hell game quite different again. >>> Are they different in any way other than difficulty? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Hmm, I'm not sure I have the desire to play through the game three times >with the same character. Your char grows and strengthens, as do the monsters. Mana becomes less of an issue, while resistances and life become more of an issue. >Even with more powerful skills, it's still >basically the same skill set. How you handle higher-diff monsters is often quite different, as they can spawn immune to your major attack skill. >There doesn't seem like enough variety to >make it all that fun. LOL!! Lots of people find that after long experience with the game, Normal difficulty is too easy to hold their interest, so they go into NM and then Hell as quickly as possible. OTOH, many people, especially HJC players, level their chars to 45 or even higher before they attempt NM. Try the Lam Esen's Tome or Nihlathak quests in Hell. Or try HC. >Playing through again with a different character >would be okay, but doing that won't let you get too far past level 30. :( I definitely recommend playing through Normal with all seven classes, with builds that cover all four attack styles: melee, missiles, magic and minions. Play through Hell with at least a few builds that use your favorite attack styles. You really don't get the value out of the game sticking to Normal diff. -- Roy L >> The NM game is different, and the Hell game quite different again. > > Are they different in any way other than difficulty? Yep, lots of items only drop in the higher difficulties. > > Well, then what I was saying applies, other classes have their own > > strenghts [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Btw, if I beat the game in SP offline mode, do I still get to start an > online game in NM mode? No. How many times and ways does it need to be said? SP is SP. Online is Online. They're two completely different universes that do not communicate in any way, for any reason, under any circumstances. SignatureDon Bruder - dakidd@sonic.net - If your "From:" address isn't on my whitelist, or the subject of the message doesn't contain the exact text "PopperAndShadow" somewhere, any message sent to this address will go in the garbage without my ever knowing it arrived. Sorry... <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd> for more info > No. How many times and ways does it need to be said? SP is SP. Online is > Online. They're two completely different universes that do not > communicate in any way, for any reason, under any circumstances. I'm not asking if I can transfer my character from offline to online. I'm not an idiot and I understand this can't be done. What I was asking was if, after beating the game in Normal difficulty offline, you could start a NM game online -- not with the same character, just with any new character. I was thinking of the difficulties as something that gets unlocked as you beat the game in the lesser difficulty, but I didn't realize it was linked to the particular character as well. >> One thing I can't help but wonder, though, is how in the world can a truly >> solo player (no summoned creatures) get through some of the parts of this [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >teleport away from groups, and lay waste to enemies with AoE spells. Druids >have summons too, and very high life thanks to Oak Sage. Etc etc etc. That is more true in SC than in HC. Certain monsters and bosses are extremely dangerous in HC for chars without strong castable minions. Soloing a sorc or zon against Normal Duriel, for example, is quite a challenge in HC, as are the Ancients for many builds in NM and Hell. -- Roy L > That is more true in SC than in HC. Certain monsters and bosses are > extremely dangerous in HC for chars without strong castable minions. > Soloing a sorc or zon against Normal Duriel, for example, is quite a > challenge in HC, Well, soloing just about ANYTHING against normal Duriel can be quite a challenge, HC or not. > as are the Ancients for many builds in NM and Hell. I've seen summoners killed by hell ancients, so, same as above applies, they can pose quite a challenge for most builds playing solo, hc or not. > -- Roy L >With some of the discussions lately about different builds, and giving >advice to a struggling summoner, I thought I'd give one more example [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Not too many builds leave Act 1 Normal with end-game weapons and >shields. When you get to Hell you can buy a plus three to summoning skills wand from a vendor. > With some of the discussions lately about different builds, and giving > advice to a struggling summoner, I thought I'd give one more example [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Not too many builds leave Act 1 Normal with end-game weapons and > shields. A Summoner played correctly can solo all of Diablo2 without wearing any equipment at all. Its been done by multiple people before - including myself when I used to play. For those that cant put-in the effort to MF 24/7 and still cry about not having good items though... ...there is always eBay and D2 item-shops (here is one that I sometimes bought from: http://www.d2items.com/ ) > With some of the discussions lately about different builds, and giving > advice to a struggling summoner, I thought I'd give one more example [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Not too many builds leave Act 1 Normal with end-game weapons and > shields. I lead the ladder 3 times with a summoner, 4 if you count the LoD beta... I'd say they do fairly well :) Mickey |
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