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Why RE4 Will Fail

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God Magnus - 25 Jun 2004 05:58 GMT
EGM: "You'll be busy protecting the president's defenseless daughter
during the second half of the game."

The second half of the game... IS AN ESCORT MISSION??!!! AAAAHHHH!!

As the depressed Persian tow truck man would say: "Escort missions are
bad... ALWAYS!"

If you had to protect Cortana throughout Halo, or that guy's daughter
througout Vice City, those games would be nowhere. Don't they understand
that nobody likes escort mission?

And for anyone who think this is a slam against RE4 or the Cube... you're
an idiot. It's a slam against excort missions. Escort missions are Satan.

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Leon Dexter - 25 Jun 2004 06:08 GMT
> EGM: "You'll be busy protecting the president's defenseless daughter
> during the second half of the game."
> And for anyone who think this is a slam against RE4 or the Cube... you're
> an idiot. It's a slam against excort missions. Escort missions are Satan.

I wouldn't worry about it from that offhand statement.  I don't much like
escort missions, either, though they have their place--but in a Resident
Evil game, I'd expect this to play out as a few cutscenes rather than an
integral gameplay element.
God Magnus - 25 Jun 2004 06:40 GMT
> I wouldn't worry about it from that offhand statement.  I don't much
> like escort missions, either, though they have their place--but in a
> Resident Evil game, I'd expect this to play out as a few cutscenes
> rather than an integral gameplay element.

It goes on: " It's an intense baby-sitting gig - she's contantly in
danger of being recaptured, unable to get over obstacles without your
help, and often in the way of your bullets"

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AMG . - 25 Jun 2004 07:36 GMT
On The Date Of: Fri, Jun 25, 2004, 5:40am, maggodnus@earth.x
(God Magnus) Wrote:

<<It goes on: " It's an intense baby-sitting gig - she's contantly in
danger of being recaptured, unable to get over obstacles without your
help, and often in the way of your bullets">>

   This sounds awful. I don't play RE to baby sit others. I would
rather worry about surviving the horror myself, not have a helpless
leach get in my way the whole game.



-AMG-

----
"If I'd tried for them dinky singles I could've batted around six
hundred." -Babe Ruth
Leon Dexter - 25 Jun 2004 09:27 GMT
"God Magnus" <maggodnus@earth.x> wrote in message

> It goes on: " It's an intense baby-sitting gig - she's contantly in
> danger of being recaptured, unable to get over obstacles without your
> help, and often in the way of your bullets"

Oh.  Well, I don't know what to say about that.  I liked ICO--a lot--but
quite frankly, I don't expect Capcom to pull off anything nearly as workable
as that was.  But if they do, along with zombies and guns and whatnot, that
would be nice.  But I'm more inclined to be really, really frightened.  And
not in the way they intend.
Billy Bissette - 25 Jun 2004 23:45 GMT
>> EGM: "You'll be busy protecting the president's defenseless daughter
>> during the second half of the game."
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Resident Evil game, I'd expect this to play out as a few cutscenes
> rather than an integral gameplay element.

 It's been described as just that from pretty much every source.
Once you find the president's daughter, she stays with you and
she is the primary target of many of the attackers.

 She is also described as having no fighting skills, and her defense
seems primarily to duck when you point a gun in her direction.

 In some ways better and some ways worse, she can't always follow
you.  So you can leave her in some areas, but it also means if you
run from an area in a particular way (like jumping out of a window)
then she might not be able to follow and will instead get left behind
with the pursueing enemies.  And supposedly there are intentionally
only a very few safe spots where you can leave her.  Particularly
with brighter and faster enemies.

 And to make things worse, she's also supposed to be a bit bratty
and contrary at times.

 So yes, as described so far, half the game is a freakin' excort
mission.  Good job possibly screwing up what otherwise was turning
out to be an excellent game...
Nekofrog - 25 Jun 2004 23:50 GMT
>>> EGM: "You'll be busy protecting the president's defenseless daughter
>>> during the second half of the game."
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>mission.  Good job possibly screwing up what otherwise was turning
>out to be an excellent game...

Right, because all these reviewers and magazine editors have a
fully-functioning, complete edition of RE4..

Face it. They've only played what Capcom wants them to play. They are
in no position to say what is and what isn't most of the game.
carlos' casa - 26 Jun 2004 00:24 GMT
"Nekofrog" <voramyr@suckmyspam.com> wrote in message
> Right, because all these reviewers and magazine editors have a
> fully-functioning, complete edition of RE4..

Um, no, I highly doubt that.
God Magnus - 26 Jun 2004 00:30 GMT
"carlos' casa" <abuse@yahoo.com> wrote in news:Yu2Dc.3059$aJ3.1074
@nwrdny02.gnilink.net:

> "Nekofrog" <voramyr@suckmyspam.com> wrote in message
>> Right, because all these reviewers and magazine editors have a
>> fully-functioning, complete edition of RE4..
>
> Um, no, I highly doubt that.

Are you familiar witht he term "sarcasm"?

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carlos' casa - 26 Jun 2004 00:47 GMT
> "carlos' casa" <abuse@yahoo.com> wrote in news:Yu2Dc.3059$aJ3.1074
> @nwrdny02.gnilink.net:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Are you familiar witht he term "sarcasm"?

Yes, are you?
God Magnus - 26 Jun 2004 00:56 GMT
"carlos' casa" <abuse@yahoo.com> wrote in news:cQ2Dc.2863$Xn.2429
@nwrdny03.gnilink.net:

>> "carlos' casa" <abuse@yahoo.com> wrote in news:Yu2Dc.3059$aJ3.1074
>> @nwrdny02.gnilink.net:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Yes, are you?

Since I don't have to define it for you, you should know that Neko was
using it.

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carlos' casa - 26 Jun 2004 04:22 GMT
> "carlos' casa" <abuse@yahoo.com> wrote in news:cQ2Dc.2863$Xn.2429
> @nwrdny03.gnilink.net:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Since I don't have to define it for you, you should know that Neko was
> using it.

Oh, and I wasn't...silly me.
God Magnus - 26 Jun 2004 00:31 GMT
> Face it. They've only played what Capcom wants them to play. They are
> in no position to say what is and what isn't most of the game.

Exactly. They're playing what Capcom wants them to play. Now would Capcom
want them to play the best parts, or the worst parts?

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Nekofrog - 26 Jun 2004 01:00 GMT
>> Face it. They've only played what Capcom wants them to play. They are
>> in no position to say what is and what isn't most of the game.
>
>Exactly. They're playing what Capcom wants them to play. Now would Capcom
>want them to play the best parts, or the worst parts?

I don't head Capcom, and nor do you. Myself, if I were a developer, I
would want the very -best- aspects of the game to be left as a
surprise; for the game player to discoverer and experience with no
pretense.

That's me, though.
God Magnus - 26 Jun 2004 00:56 GMT
>>> Face it. They've only played what Capcom wants them to play. They
>>> are in no position to say what is and what isn't most of the game.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> That's me, though.

So you would want bad press before the game comes out. Okay.

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Nekofrog - 26 Jun 2004 02:36 GMT
>>>> Face it. They've only played what Capcom wants them to play. They
>>>> are in no position to say what is and what isn't most of the game.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>So you would want bad press before the game comes out. Okay.

Not at all. I said the -best- parts. Do movie trailers show you the
climaxes of every scene? Of course not. Use some logic.

Capcom is showing off what they believe to be necessary for the game.
They're not going to shoot their wad over some 2-bit video game press
to impress people. Those that want RE4 will get it no matter what.
God Magnus - 26 Jun 2004 03:15 GMT
>>> I don't head Capcom, and nor do you. Myself, if I were a developer, I
>>> would want the very -best- aspects of the game to be left as a
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Not at all. I said the -best- parts. Do movie trailers show you the
> climaxes of every scene? Of course not. Use some logic.

Okay, so when you said "best parts" it had nothing to do with what I was
saying. You've got some reading comprehension problems, then. What you
meant was "best moments". The entire second HALF of the preview version was
bad. A few good moments won't make up for that. If it didn't represet a
significant portion of the game, why would they make it a significant
portion of the preview version?

First, you say "very -best- aspects", then you say "best parts", and refer
to the climax of a scene. They are two totally different things. An
"aspect" of the game would be a fundamental portion.

> Capcom is showing off what they believe to be necessary for the game.

Exactly. Meaning the escort missions are necessary to give people an idea
of the the final version will be like.

> They're not going to shoot their wad over some 2-bit video game press
> to impress people.

What brilliant marketing! Make everyone think it will suck! It's genius!
Again, you change what you said. First, you wouldn't want bad press, "not
at all". Then, the press is "2-bit" and they shouldn't bother trying to
impress people. Do you care about the press or not? Or are you just full of
crap?

> Those that want RE4 will get it no matter what.

Yes, you're called fanboys. And you're not to be bothered with.

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Nekofrog - 26 Jun 2004 03:34 GMT
>>>> I don't head Capcom, and nor do you. Myself, if I were a developer, I
>>>> would want the very -best- aspects of the game to be left as a
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
>Yes, you're called fanboys. And you're not to be bothered with.

As soon as you went ad-hominem, I stopped reading.

When you're prepared to debate and discuss properly, without insults,
get back to me.

Till then, ta.
Billy Bissette - 26 Jun 2004 17:55 GMT
>>So you would want bad press before the game comes out. Okay.
>
> Not at all. I said the -best- parts. Do movie trailers show you the
> climaxes of every scene? Of course not. Use some logic.

 Actually, movie trailers are a very bad example to call for that
particular argument.  Movie trailers for years have been blasted for
giving away the movies, yet it doesn't actually hurt movie sales.
Actually, it is believed to help movies to give away not only the
best parts, but the bulk of the movie as a whole, because people
pretty much forget the old style of unrevealing short teaser trailers
unless it is already a movie that they wanted to see.

 So you have things like Castaway, where the trailer shows that Tom
Hanks not only gets off the island, but also tells you the various
things that he has to deal with once he does return.  And Castaway
is far from the only movie.  Most movies these days give you some of
the biggest scenes, and often enough key plot points as well as key
scene endings.

 And at the extreme, you have the increasingly popular 10-minute
promotionals, like the The Village special promotional that ABC ran
when they aired Unbreakable.

 Some TV shows do similar as well.  Enterprise promos are notorious
for giving away everything about the next episode, including things
that were supposed to be secrets or surprises.  Worse, they are run
before even the current episode is over, so you know for a fact that
whatever character is currently in danger will be back next week.  24
has a similar problem with its promos giving away major plot twists
and advancements a week in advance.  But the companies also figure
people won't watch without such promos.  24, despite critical acclaim,
barely scraped through its first season (and then only because of
extra money for the FX channel repeats).  Enterprise got renewed for
next year only because the price per episode was cut to less than
half ($1.7mil down to $800,000).  And in the case of Resident Evil,
Capcom has contantly complained that the GC versions haven't sold as
well as they've wanted.  (But then again, half the GC games were straight
ports of old games, and the other half is still cursed by Capcom
just not liking the Cube and not liking being forced by Mikami to
make RE on the Cube.)

> Capcom is showing off what they believe to be necessary for the game.
> They're not going to shoot their wad over some 2-bit video game press
> to impress people. Those that want RE4 will get it no matter what.

 Capcom is the one that has made a big issue about the escort-aspect
of the woman.  So Capcom sees it as important and is promoting it, and
has described it as a major part of the game.

 If it weren't a factor for at least some decent portion of the game,
then why would they be the ones emphasizing it and its impact on
gameplay?

 That would be like Konami focusing on the Psycho Mantis button mash
torture scene in all of their pre-MGS promos.

 And considering the general dislike of escort missions, it would be
silly to promote the game by building up a disliked factor that wasn't
even really a big part of the actual game.
John Salerno - 25 Jun 2004 06:48 GMT
> EGM: "You'll be busy protecting the president's defenseless daughter
> during the second half of the game."

> And for anyone who think this is a slam against RE4 or the Cube...
> you're an idiot. It's a slam against excort missions. Escort missions
> are Satan.

I agree, they suck, but perhaps you are exaggerating a bit. Maybe it doesn't
take up *that* much time. Like when the first scenes of RE0 came out,
everyone thought the whole game might be set on a train, but it was just the
first level.

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The Kicksen - 25 Jun 2004 10:27 GMT
> EGM: "You'll be busy protecting the president's defenseless daughter
> during the second half of the game."
>
> The second half of the game... IS AN ESCORT MISSION??!!! AAAAHHHH!!

Think ICO, then think more fun.

(More fun than ICO?)
carlos' casa - 25 Jun 2004 14:46 GMT
> EGM: "You'll be busy protecting the president's defenseless daughter
> during the second half of the game."
>
> The second half of the game... IS AN ESCORT MISSION??!!! AAAAHHHH!

It will fail because it's a tired old genre that really needs to be
overhauled....completely.
Billy Bissette - 25 Jun 2004 23:48 GMT
>> EGM: "You'll be busy protecting the president's defenseless daughter
>> during the second half of the game."
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> It will fail because it's a tired old genre that really needs to be
> overhauled....completely.

 If you mean Resident Evil itself, it is being overhauled pretty much
completely.

 If you mean escort missions, they fail primarily because they are
generally so poorly done.  Bad AI and plenty of frustrating events and
failing not because of your own mistakes, but because your protectee
decided to be an idiot.
carlos' casa - 26 Jun 2004 00:22 GMT
> >> EGM: "You'll be busy protecting the president's defenseless daughter
> >> during the second half of the game."
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>   If you mean Resident Evil itself, it is being overhauled pretty much
> completely.

I hope so, I really do.

>   If you mean escort missions, they fail primarily because they are
> generally so poorly done.  Bad AI and plenty of frustrating events and
> failing not because of your own mistakes, but because your protectee
> decided to be an idiot.

No, I can deal with escort missions, it's just that, every, and I mean
EVERY game has nearly the same environments, monsters, weapons,
camera angles.  Did you ever notice they all have some kind of mansion?
I mean, that's getting real old.  I think there are a multitude of other
locations that could be explored....the Holland tunnel (or similar).
Anyway, I think it's time for Capcom to step up, or step out.
Billy Bissette - 26 Jun 2004 18:08 GMT
>> > It will fail because it's a tired old genre that really needs to be
>> > overhauled....completely.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> locations that could be explored....the Holland tunnel (or similar).
> Anyway, I think it's time for Capcom to step up, or step out.

 Well, RE4 has a village and a castle and such.  No mansion for a change,
though you might want to call a castle a medieval mansion. :p

 So far, RE4 also doesn't have zombies.  Instead faster and more
intelligent no-quite-human humans.  Still has strange big bosses, but if
it is the T-virus then it has changed in the years since RE3's end.

 Camera angles have changed to more traditional third person, with the
third person corner view for shooting (or first person view).  Control
seems to have improved a lot, though several things are dictated by
environment (like being able to jump through a window, but only when
near a window).

 It looks like they are really trying to reinvent the series.  The
god-awful tank-bot overhead view/controls combo seems to have gone.
There are supposed to be more open areas, rather than just constantly
being in constricted hallways.  The creatures shown so far are different
from the old RE games (entranced humans, cultists), though the latter
game creatures and storyline haven't been revealed.  The location is
entirely different at least, no longer even in the States.

 I do wonder how much Capcom will ultimately lose on the game though.
Even if it does well, they've ended up sinking a lot of resources into
it.  The recent Game Informer interview mentions that RE4 was scrapped
and restarted from scratch not once (as has been popularly reported)
but three separate times.  And each of those scrappings was because
the game wasn't seen as being changed enough from the past incarnations.
But it is also generally a sign of a game that is going to have cost
issues ultimately.
El Guapo - 25 Jun 2004 14:55 GMT
> EGM: "You'll be busy protecting the president's defenseless daughter
> during the second half of the game."
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> As the depressed Persian tow truck man would say: "Escort missions are
> bad... ALWAYS!"

ICO proves otherwise.  Granted, a poorly executed escort mission can pull an
otherwise good game down.  I think it depends on how realistically the girl
in RE4 reacts.  I don't mind protecting her, and I don't expect her to be
able to take on zombie creatures on her own, but I do expect her to have
enough sense to get behind me when I'm fighting them and try to stay out of
the way.
carlos' casa - 25 Jun 2004 16:07 GMT
> > EGM: "You'll be busy protecting the president's defenseless daughter
> > during the second half of the game."
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> enough sense to get behind me when I'm fighting them and try to stay out of
> the way.

The only escort mission that didn't piss me off was XIII.  I thought it was
well-balanced.  Although, I played it on the normal difficulty.

This will probably be a mistake on RE4, especially if your escortee has
as much health as you do.  2-3 "hugs" and it'll probably be all over.
Kevin Sullivan - 26 Jun 2004 05:28 GMT
>EGM: "You'll be busy protecting the president's defenseless daughter
>during the second half of the game."
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>And for anyone who think this is a slam against RE4 or the Cube... you're
>an idiot. It's a slam against excort missions. Escort missions are Satan.

Then again, the whole of ICO is an escort mission and that game rocks
:p
pip_spud - 28 Jun 2004 18:46 GMT
> As the depressed Persian tow truck man would say: "Escort missions are
> bad... ALWAYS!"

yeah - prince of persia was sh.t, wasn't it?
 
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