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iRacing: The race that changed my mind!

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Andrew MacPherson - 22 Aug 2008 13:21 GMT
Well, maybe. This is *me* we're talking about. ;-)

Despite all my whining I've driven about five races on my night off. The
first three were the usual mixed bag of distinctly average experiences...
a few moments of tension at the start, then a steady trail of hotlaps
with the occasional spinner or lapper to liven things up a little. The
Skippy keeps you involved enough in your lapping not to make it too
boring though, which is probably why it's easy to get sucked into 'just
one more race' when the next one comes around.

It beats doing the ironing anyway.

The fourth race was a farce. My video locked up twice in warmup for a few
seconds, resulting in a crash. I quit and came back, but it happened
again in the race despite ripping the side off my case and aiming a fan
inside. I don't think that video freeze hurt anyone but myself, but it
hurt my SR nastily. I quit & rebooted, then remembered I could rejoin.
Tried again and this time, 3 laps down, I was able to finish without
further problems.

I think, in retrospect, this video freeze might have been caused by
Intel's CPU temp monitoring utility which I'd had loaded to keep a record
of temps during racing. It was the only unusual thing running on my PC at
the time.

Anyway, that was a fairly low point in the day. But another hour passed
and another race lures me in. Somehow the fact that there's only one
every two hours can make it harder to resist than if you had VROC-style
choice of quitting one and joining another straight away. You have a
cooling-off period after a race, and just enough time before the next to
have a drink and forget the bad bits.

Ok, so 26 drivers register and iRacing splits us nicely into two races of
13 drivers (maximum is 14).

Things got off to a bad start. An Aussie (that time of day is littered
with the whingeing, gold-phobic barstewards! ;-) leaves the pits just
behind me, and is obviously faster... or at least less fearless than me.
I pull over politely to let him past after a few turns. He follows me and
I collect a x4 penalty for my manners.

Fortunately warmup SR penalties don't count too heavily, and he did at
least apologise. I'll live, but it already feels like another of 'those'
iRaces.

On the grid there's only one driver behind me, just the way I like it.
The air is full of G'days & G'lucks & polite European silence. Then we're
off, and the guy from behind me is having none of this, "you can't win a
race at the first bend" stuff. He's 3-wide and weaving all the way down
to T1. And yet everyone survives, thanks mainly to the average driver
being a lot more cautious.

Before long though there's an incident. I pass a car pointing the wrong
way, another going sideways, another pulled to one side behaving -- it
seems to me anyway -- a bit sheepishly. I pass them all cleanly,
following fairly closely behind another driver.

For once I'm hanging onto the guy in front, and forget about the racers
I've passed. But within a lap or two my mirror is suddenly full of cars.
They're closing fast, but not so fast I need to pull over yet... after
all, we're just entering the twisty bit of the track where passing would
be suicidal unless I make an obvious mistake.

Wrong! I'm lined up nicely for the turn and before I can react, one
driver's gone round the outside of me, out-braking me by about a
light-year. I slow to prevent an incident, and another driver passes me
on the inside, showing total fearlessness. I somehow hold it together,
and try to relax again as my heart pounds.

But the third driver from the group I'd passed is now in my mirror. Sod
this, I pull well over and let him squirrel off after his mates.

Well, that was certainly exciting, but it was the wrong kind of
excitement. I'm used to a calmer, more conservative type of racing back
among those who're less certain of their talent. I suppose it's a
compliment of sorts though that they thought I could be taken so
predictably.

On with the race. Plenty of time to calm down and get into my slow,
steady little groove of 1:26es. But now I'm slowly getting closer to the
guy in front. We'll call him Alain because, well, because that was his
name. Not an Aussie name, and certainly not an Aussie driver. Slower,
steady, and lapping about 1s a lap slower than myself.

Looks like I've finally -- after gawd knows how many races! -- got a
fairly evenly matched opponent. And I was right.

For seven *glorious* laps I followed him around Summit Point. There were
sections of the track where I could get very close, but they weren't
sections where passing was safe for both of us, and I'd get no
satisfaction whatsoever from pushing hard and causing someone to have an
off. There's no money, trophies or scantily clad women riding on this,
just a few lousy iRating points. So I back off where I'm not sure about
his braking, and I lean hard where he shows confidence. It is both
exciting and rewarding, even though he's slowing me down by about 2s a
lap now.

But what does that matter? Nearly everyone else is way off in the
distance. So coming into the final bend of our seventh lap together I
think I've finally got the measure of my opponent. I back off just enough
to give him space, yet come out of the turn just behind him. That'll give
me the whole straight to slipstream him and out-brake him -- as I know I
can -- into T1.

But what's this? Nooooooo! You can't over-cook it... please don't lose
it... not now!

Sadly Alain had pushed a little too hard. Maybe he could smell my
anglo-saxon gameplan from across le Channel? Maybe his cat jumped on his
monitor? Or maybe he just lost it the way we all do... by simply being
human.

I contemplate slowing to let him catch up, but that can seem a little
insulting, and besides, there's someone else coming up fast now, and
we'll be racing for position. I may not be the most competeitive person
on the track, but I try not to be too much of an easy target.

The rest of the race was fairly uneventful, but I was basking in the warm
glow of the best seven laps of racing I've had... well, since about 1999
when I nearly had a heart attack from some very exciting and very close
racing in GPL at Monza... I had to quit that race because my hands were
shaking from the adrenalin rush. :-)

The best part was finding out afterwards that Alain had also enjoyed our
encounter, describing me as a 'very fair' racer.

Now to some that's probably a huge insult. Who wants to be fair, this is
racing, not knitting! But to me it was a huge compliment, and I came -->
.<-- this close to renewing my subscription straight away after that
race.

If I do so in the next week it won't be because I love iRacing and its
many, many flaws. It'll be because despite those flaws, iRacing has
reminded me why I still have a wheel attached to the gaming end of my
desk, even though it's years since I've used it regularly.

Maybe, just maybe, that is enough to justify the ongoing cost and the
many frustrations iRacing in its current form has to offer.

Andrew McP... boring rec.autos.simulators for well over a decade!
Larry - 22 Aug 2008 13:45 GMT
Andrew,

I have a little utility that will do the temp monitoring for you without any
installation to your system to possibly screw it up.  PM me in iRacing and
I'll get you a link to it.  I'm not at my racing machine right now...

-Larry

> Well, maybe. This is *me* we're talking about. ;-)
>
[quoted text clipped - 136 lines]
>
> Andrew McP... boring rec.autos.simulators for well over a decade!
Andrew MacPherson - 22 Aug 2008 21:40 GMT
> I have a little utility that will do the temp monitoring for you
> without any installation to your system to possibly screw it up.

It's ok Larry. I usually use something called 'Speedfan' which has never
caused me a problem. I just used the Intel tool this time because it had
a big, easily readable display.

I shouldn't be glancing at the second screen anyway. It's not a good
habit. :-)

Andrew McP
PlowBoy, - 22 Aug 2008 15:34 GMT
Andrew,

I love Iracing, I signed up for a year, I was on the bunch of 1st
invitees...  Ok, I loved it, (*LOVED*) past tense well sorta, I still like
it.  Right now it is like that last soon to "ex" relations hip kind of
feeling, or Love and hate relationship.  But so much like you I feel more
that I have good races and more bad.  BUT I'm finding certain nights, the
races go with several racers seem to have the mindset, lets race, hard but
clean and understand the CONCEPTS of RACING which in real life means without
being killed, hopefully.  That part is hard to impart into a sim...

But some nights there are those Terrorists I call them, the ones just fast
enough <for a lap or 2> to cause a crap load of angst when you race them,
bullying into turn one then off the track mid corner....  But right now my
2nd biggest thing is the people that must be shutting off mirrors, and not
glancing at the F3 Screen, not even once in a while, and shut off the voice
communications.  I'm talking about Oval racing, were I'm am not usually the
lapper, but I see this as well in roads...  Being a pay to race service, I
find it hard to not get pretty opinionated about the following:

lappers that wont make an effort to hold a line, and to let themselves be
lapped.

You mention the "pull over" mentality, and I applaud it, but it does bring
to My mind how I think that guy felt, that followed you when you "pulled
over" to stop/slow out of the way, and "plowed into you"...    Here's how I
have seen or done it.  I'm following you or say someone like you, lets say,
since I am sure I haven't actually raced you yet...  I'm coming up on you
and decide I can move over, and pass you soon, if I do this and this...  So,
I think about it, then just as I set off to do it, you pull over and
stop/slow down.  Whoa!  To me, just keep yer line, and pace, and we can get
along fine.  I suspect others think so as well.

Now that was just my thoughts, hoping that it might enlighten you on the
"overtaking car's" thoughts in that situation, sometimes.

Well if I haven't made you mad...   here is what has me so mad some nights
that I wish I could get my money back (lol)..  PS: and yeah in real life
when dipwads do this type of crap, unless they are independently wealthy or
drive for like some nascar team, they get time to reflect on their actions
while spending the rest of the night rebuilding the car, if not the next
week, or heaven forbid after they exit the hospital.

This week, one night,  I had 3 races that I ran ahead of 2nd place by over
2 seconds, in legends (both advanced and rookie versions) and in each, I got
wrecked by some azzclown that was given 3 laps (since I had time between 2nd
I tried to wait...) 2 times I get wiped out people who cant just do 2
things....

1 slow up so they can control his/her own destiny, and stay in the lane they
are in. Be predictable, that is being courteous.  trust me losing 1 to .5
seconds for one lap is less miserable (on 15-17 second lap sized tracks
even) than being wrecked.

2, when the clown spins, they seem to think EVERYONE else needs to stop,
while that car gets to violently turn itself around, ACROSS all 3 lanes of
traffic plus the aprons, in front of the lead pack or even just fellow
competitors

2A, OR THE WORST OFFENDERS, they spin but refuse to HOLD the brakes tight,
giving them that spin plus moving target (like a misdirection play). No, we
get the spinout that you have to dodge, PLUS they back the car across all
lanes of traffic.  HEY NOW, It isn't that they got knocked out by the
impact, nor has the game simulated brake failure, !!!!nope it is BLATANT
DipSh*tty-ness!!!!

I can usually handle dodging a single car spin, at least not be "pissed as
all get out" at that person, if I don't manage to miss them and get taken
out of a race, even while leading,  that IS, when the car that spun does the
right thing!  they SIT FR#KING STILL as possible.

IMHO I'm one of those people that hate "restrictions" on things but Gawd
Darn it.  there are night that im seriously considering evangelizing that
there needs to be a day of training or something for too many, followed by
some test, oral or written....  before they are allowed to race...

Ah, nice to vent a little....

Plowboy

> Well, maybe. This is *me* we're talking about. ;-)
>
[quoted text clipped - 136 lines]
>
> Andrew McP... boring rec.autos.simulators for well over a decade!
Larry - 22 Aug 2008 15:48 GMT
I've only had two real issues in RC's, one of which you mention.  It doesn't
happen often, but it IS frustrating when it does.

For me Road America was the worst for this.

1.  Passing slower cars.  I don't hold up fast drivers.  I let them by.  I
hold my line on the left (for right-handers) so they can move inside and
pass, just like it should be.  But there are some fast drivers that don't
know how to pass at all.  They should expect the slower driver to stay left
(in this example), because it's the proper thing to do, and they should move
to the right lane and do the pass.  What I'm seeing is some of the fast guys
driving deep into the same line as the slower driver, braking way later
(part of the skill thing), and ramming the slower driver in the rear.  It
just doesn't make sense.  To me this is bullying and it really pisses me
off.  You don't have to bully me to pass me.  If you are faster, I AM going
to let you by.  If it's the last 1/2 lap and it's for position, I may make
you work a bit harder.  If I'm a lap down to the car behind, it doesn't
matter so I still let them by easily.  I make myself an easy pass, you don't
need to force the issue :)

2.  The track re-entry thing.  It is the still-on-track drivers
responsibility to be alert and deal with this as best possible.  It is the
off-track drivers responsiblity to re-enter the track without placing the
on-track cars in harms way.  No more to be said here.

I got a healthy dose of both, (two of each) in my RA race and I was not
amused.  Luckily I have only seen this happen once (this badly) so far.  I
think I ended up in a server full of aliens and I was way out of my league
on this one.  That does not change the basic facts about courteous
passing/re-entry.

-Larry

> Andrew,
>
[quoted text clipped - 218 lines]
>>
>> Andrew McP... boring rec.autos.simulators for well over a decade!
Rob P - 22 Aug 2008 16:31 GMT
> Andrew,
>
[quoted text clipped - 77 lines]
>
> Plowboy

When I first started I had a few incidents where I slowed and changed line
and got hit from behind. Nowadays I just hold my line unless I have enough
time to move over before the fast driver is anywhere near me.

My current problem is bends, especially after a straight. Say its a right
hander, I normally move over to the right of the track and slow down with
plenty of time before the incoming drivers get near me. Unfortunately it is
sometimes too much time and I get to the bend before they do, but on the
inside.

They normally hair in at light speed, dab their brakes then turn in, only to
find me there. The resultant maneuvering normally causes them to spin off or
go off the track. - At least this is what I think is happening.

I not entirely sure whether its all my fault as most of the time the lead
two cars get by me with no problem. It's normally the third that gets into
problems.

Obviously, it is not my intention to do this and if there is a safer way of
letting the faster drivers by in this situation, I'd like to know it.

I guess there is a reason why my car sports a big red stripe on the back :)

RobP
Asgeir Nesoen - 26 Aug 2008 09:30 GMT
A pass, for position or lapping, should always be performed on the
inside, and never on the outside. Outside passing will cause accidents
all the time, and this will make everyone frustrated.

The faster drivers always claim that the slower should give way, because
they, due to their superior speed, have a god-given right of way.

This is untrue in RL racing, and it is untrue in Sim racing. Everyone
with a car on a track on equal terms has a right to be there, and a
faster driver becoming stuck behind a slow driver is the faster drivers
problem.

When that is said, the slower driver should never try to block the
faster driver unless fighting for position. You're allowed to block when
you're fighting for position, but blocking takes time, and will cause
accidents, so you'll have to make up your mind if blocking gets you that
podium finish or not. Most of the time it doesn't, IMO. The best racing
results when you leave room for the passing driver, so that both drivers
can race very hard without risking being pushed off track.

When I approach slower drivers, I just *hate* it when they move over
when I approach them. I may even hate that more than the slower driver
being mindless of what happens behind him, because moving over upsets
everyones rythms, and it's accident prone.

The correct way of letting by a faster driver at the end of a straight
is holding your line, all the way to the outside, braking a bit early so
that you don't run off, and just wait for the faster driver to pass on
the inside. This is the way it is done in RL, and this is the way it
should be done in sim racing.

---A---

> When I first started I had a few incidents where I slowed and changed
> line and got hit from behind. Nowadays I just hold my line unless I have
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> RobP
GaryR - 26 Aug 2008 15:35 GMT
While I agree with the part about the slower driver no altering his
driving line I don't agree about the ouside pass. A faster driver will
plan and execute a safe pass using the information gathered while
following the driver in front of him. What messes this up is the
slower driver changeing his/her behavior at the last minute. Inside,
outside, is of no consequence in sims, just as in RL racing. I
currently RL race more than I sim race (almost never during the
summer) so maybe in sims you should act differently?

>A pass, for position or lapping, should always be performed on the
>inside, and never on the outside. Outside passing will cause accidents
>all the time, and this will make everyone frustrated.
>---A---
Larry - 26 Aug 2008 18:19 GMT
No one expects anyone to pass on the outside at a RC.  Does it happen?
Sure.  But the odds against it going well are FAR worse than a normal,
expected inside pass.

The odds just are not with you.

Generally speaking, of course.

-Larry

> While I agree with the part about the slower driver no altering his
> driving line I don't agree about the ouside pass. A faster driver will
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>>all the time, and this will make everyone frustrated.
>>---A---
Rob P - 26 Aug 2008 16:58 GMT
> A pass, for position or lapping, should always be performed on the inside,
> and never on the outside. Outside passing will cause accidents all the
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> ---A---

This seems like good advice. On the current track of Laguna I don't get
lapped, I guess I'm just fast enough to stop this. At Lime Rock I will put
this into practice. On the straight I will hold my line, but brake a little
earlier so that I can take the whole bend on the outside line (the left). I
will need to practice this first as I don't know what the camber does there
at the mo and I wouldn't want to upset the car and send it off the track.

I wish iRacing would publish a newbie guide of race craft with info such as
this. Otherwise we all develop our own means of dealing with fast cars,
which as you rightly point out isn't optimal.

RobP
Larry - 26 Aug 2008 18:24 GMT
I actually have no issues whatsoever about getting lapped.  Really, it
doesn't bug me in the least.  As long as the guy lapping me is paying
attention and doesn't punt/bully me out of the way.

When it comes to RC's right now, for me, I'm racing myself and the track.
Everything else is just a required distraction :)

Road racing is new to me.  With the exception of a few Cup RC's in Rascar, I
never ran them.  Not until about 4 years ago when I came aboard iRacing.
I've considerably behind everyone else in this regard.

At least I don't HATE them any more :)

-Larry

> This seems like good advice. On the current track of Laguna I don't get
> lapped, I guess I'm just fast enough to stop this. At Lime Rock I will put
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> RobP
Asgeir Nesoen - 28 Aug 2008 10:08 GMT
The braking early bit is only approprioate when the lapper moves to your
inside before approaching the braking zone; this way he'll pass you well
before turn-in, and you'll make the turn with full control, nice line,
and therefore you'll get the maximum exit speed despite being overtaking
previously...

If he stays on your line as you approach the braking zone, you should
NOT brake early, as this will surely set up things nicely for a possibly
race-ruining event...

The main thing is to get the lapper past you as quickly as possible
without upsetting his or your line. If you let him by during braking,
you'll be ready for the turn just like on any lap, and he'll make his
turn-in without worrying about what takes place on the outside.

---A---

>> A pass, for position or lapping, should always be performed on the
>> inside, and never on the outside. Outside passing will cause accidents
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>
> RobP
pdotson@mindspring.com - 28 Aug 2008 14:59 GMT
> A pass, for position or lapping, should always be performed on the
> inside, and never on the outside. Outside passing will cause accidents
> all the time, and this will make everyone frustrated.

That's ridiculous.  Look here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl3yP7JeAZI

--
Pat Dotson
GaryR - 28 Aug 2008 17:26 GMT
I agree. They got the track down well but they must have scanned it
when it was smooth, as this is what it was like two weeks ago..
http://www.vimeo.com/1551363

GR

>> A pass, for position or lapping, should always be performed on the
>> inside, and never on the outside. Outside passing will cause accidents
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl3yP7JeAZI
Asgeir Nesoen - 29 Aug 2008 09:25 GMT
I never said outside passing cannot be done, I just said that passes
should be performed on the inside, as a general rule.

In addition the inside/outside pass was discussed here in context of
being lapped. You should try to pass a backmarker when he tries to get
you around him on the outside. If there is at all doubts about inside or
outside pass when passing a backmarker, accidents will occur. All the time.

If a racer consistently tries to pass on the outside, he'll see plenty
of accidents, that is what I meant.

Safe outside passing takes place from time to time, but safe inside
passing takes place *all* the time...

---A---

>> A pass, for position or lapping, should always be performed on the
>> inside, and never on the outside. Outside passing will cause accidents
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> --
> Pat Dotson
Byron Forbes - 29 Aug 2008 10:34 GMT
You can stick that in the software you're working on -

IF pass outside attempted

THEN GOTO JAIL, do not pass start/finish line, do not collect winners
pearse.

ELSE continue

STOP

END

>I never said outside passing cannot be done, I just said that passes should
>be performed on the inside, as a general rule.
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>> --
>> Pat Dotson
Larry - 29 Aug 2008 14:29 GMT
In GENERAL terms, passing on the inside IS historically safer, and generally
the more-expected method of passing.  This doesn't mean that outside passing
doesn't work, but it isn't going to be expected by the majority.  Just look
at the mess that F1 drivers get themselves into when they try it :)

-Larry

On Aug 26, 4:30 am, Asgeir Nesoen <asgeir.nes...@hf.uio.no> wrote:
> A pass, for position or lapping, should always be performed on the
> inside, and never on the outside. Outside passing will cause accidents
> all the time, and this will make everyone frustrated.

That's ridiculous.  Look here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl3yP7JeAZI

--
Pat Dotson
Byron Forbes - 30 Aug 2008 00:25 GMT
If the lead driver is blocking the inside line then, especially in real
life due to dust, etc, he needs to brake earlier. Even without the dust
factor, the geometry of the situation demands this as well, especially if he
is considerate enough (yes, a BIG if) to make sure he will not end up on the
outside line due to braking too late. Point is, if the lead car makes his
intentions to block the inside clear then an attempted pass on the outside
is completely legitimate and actually common sense.

   And really, the main point here is not situation, but the discipline of
the drivers in play. Remember Montoya pulling that move off on, of all
people, Michael Schumacher?

> In GENERAL terms, passing on the inside IS historically safer, and
> generally the more-expected method of passing.  This doesn't mean that
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> --
> Pat Dotson
Andrew MacPherson - 22 Aug 2008 21:40 GMT
A@KS.com (PlowBoy) wrote:

> So, I think about it, then just as I set off to do it, you pull
> over and stop/slow down.  Whoa!  

I can assure you that when I pull off the racing line it's never a last
minute or sudden thing... I always do it well ahead of someone filling my
mirrors. I agree it would be unfair to do that if a driver is close.

Perhaps I should re-think my strategy though.

> Ah, nice to vent a little....

iRacing is the Jekyll & Hyde of sim racing. An angel one minute, a
monster the next. ;-)

Andrew McP
jeffareid - 23 Aug 2008 09:45 GMT
> I can assure you that when I pull off the racing line it's never a last
> minute or sudden thing... I always do it well ahead of someone filling my
> mirrors. I agree it would be unfair to do that if a driver is close.

I don't "rent" iRacing, but some of these posts have made me curious. Is
the view in iRacing restrictive enough that you can't see far enough ahead
to avoid slower moving cars? I know than in NR2003 I use hood view, for this
very reason, even though it's not realistic. Only a few of use have the money
or the space for a tripple wides screen setup for a proper in car view with
adequate peripheral vision to see far enough ahead in a corner.

I drive a motorcycle in real life, and one of the issues was getting used to
looking a 1/4 turn ahead when on circular freeway on or off ramps (for
safety reasons to scan for potential problems ahead), while maintaining an
proper distance from the curbs, since lane position on a motorcycle is an
indirect combination of lean angle and distance traveled, and by looking
ahead, your using peripheral vision to see your lean angle.
Andrew MacPherson - 23 Aug 2008 12:44 GMT
> I don't "rent" iRacing, but some of these posts have made me
> curious. Is the view in iRacing restrictive enough that you
> can't see far enough ahead to avoid slower moving cars?

The view ahead is very good indeed into the distance. There's no 'cut off'
and no excuse for not seeing exactly where people are on the track.
Anticipating where they;re going next may be a different matter. :-)

The view backwards in the Skippy's excellent too. A combination of the
'artificial' mirror at the top of the screen (optional), wing mirrors,
and the F3 list of real-time relative driver positions give you pretty
good spacial awareness.

While I'm here I'm going to repeat what I've said before... despite its
annoying limitations and the purgatory that is the Solstice, I think
every road racer (I can't really talk about ovals) should invest a month
and the $50 it'll cost (altogether) to get into a Skippy.

This morning I've reinstalled N2003 and have been very impressed by it
running with everything maxxed out. If I dump iRacing for a while,
that'll scratch the oval itch very nicely. But I've just been quickly
through GTL, rFactor, GTR2, and LFS(z), then back to a test in the Skippy,
and *nothing* gives me the same sense of car control as I get in the
Skippy... Apart from the neutered first gear (no wheel spin possible) it
really does seem to be the son-of-GPL.

Of course this might be the best reason for *not* trying iRacing. :-) I
did also try GPL again after sorting out some sound problems I had which
stopped me trying it. But the 36fps now seems too flickery for comfort.

How easily spoiled we become in our old age! :-)

Andrew McP

PS I don't think I've mentioned before, but I *hate* the 'iRacing' name...
it's far too Apple wannabee. I also hate calling the Skip Barber 2000 the
'Skippy'. It's a bad habit and I've adopted this shorthand like just
about everyone else on iRacing. I will try to use SB2K instead from now
on. That way I can stop humming Skippy, Skippy, Skippy the bush kangaroo
every time I type it.
jeffareid - 23 Aug 2008 14:25 GMT
> While I'm here I'm going to repeat what I've said before... despite its
> annoying limitations and the purgatory that is the Solstice, I think
> every road racer (I can't really talk about ovals) should invest a month
> and the $50 it'll cost (altogether) to get into a Skippy.

Two issues for me. I stopped being into realism once I realized that no
PC based simulator is going to truly capture that final 5% or so of how a
real car will respond when at or past the limits, which varies in the real
world depending on the car and tires involved.  There are just too many
very complicated dnamic factors involved to be able to calculate them all
even with the huge amount of cpu power in todays' PC's, and for me, these
games will just end up "getting close but not quite there".

The other main issue is that I like to keep my all my games and replays,
occasionally going back and replaying them (I recenlty redid NFS Undergrond
2's career mode, and ran a few laps with GPL at Kyalami with the Lotus),
which is something I could never do with a rental game.

Someday I might try iRacing, but in it's current state, flaws like the
Mazda getting normal downforce while sliding sideways tells me that there's
a lot more than just tweaking of parameters required to "fix" issues like this.

I bought an LFS S1 license when it came out, because I owned a Caterham
SV at the time and was expecting the LX6 in LFS to have the same cool
go kart like feel, but the LFS S1 version didn't come close and the car
was very unforgiving, and in general significantly different in how
it handled than the real thing (there is a large parking lot nearby
formerly used for Pro Solo Autocrossing and I could get in a lot of
laps or better still time on the small and large figure 8 tracks used
to teach driving at the limits). I was very dissappointed, and the major
physics issues weren't fixed until about a year ago with version "V" of S2,
and it still doesn't come close to the real thing.
Andrew MacPherson - 23 Aug 2008 21:34 GMT
> Someday I might try iRacing, but in it's current state, flaws like
> the Mazda getting normal downforce while sliding sideways tells me
> that there's a lot more than just tweaking of parameters required
> to "fix" issues like this.

I can't argue with that, or your other points.

Reflecting on a week of highs (ok, high) & lows online, I still think
I'll probably quit iRacing next week. But I'm glad I tried it, and I
think it is -- in the same way that GPL was -- well ahead of the
competition in terms of physics and the 'feel' of the car underneath you.
The combination of aural and force feedback, and the responsiveness of
the cars (well, the SB2K anyway) is well worth experiencing.

However there are, indeed, many flaws, and I think they're definitely
pushing their luck by opening the doors to the general simming public at
this stage. I suspect this is only happening because of poor take-up on
the invites (%-age wise) leading to a smaller racing pool than required
to drive the service at other than peak times. There's too much wheat
online, and not enough chaff like me. :-) Though until they adopt a mass
market, two-tier structure I think that will always be the case. Weekend
racers like myself will struggle to find motivation

I wish the project well though, and I suspect I'll find it very hard to
replace on my HD.

Andrew McP
Richard - 24 Aug 2008 04:14 GMT
>> Someday I might try iRacing, but in it's current state, flaws like
>> the Mazda getting normal downforce while sliding sideways tells me
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Andrew McP
Always enjoyed your posts. Remember, after you uninstall iRacing, check
your startup programs. I found iRacing still loading at windows start up.
Larry - 25 Aug 2008 18:02 GMT
I'd like to dig into that a bit more (Really, I'm not poking a stick at you
here :)).

What do you base that on.  I am too a bit confused about a few things Mazda,
and your info may help me figure it out.

-Larry

> Someday I might try iRacing, but in it's current state, flaws like the
> Mazda getting normal downforce while sliding sideways tells me that
> there's
> a lot more than just tweaking of parameters required to "fix" issues like
> this.
jeffareid - 26 Aug 2008 06:53 GMT
Read this thread, from RSC, specifically post #22.

http://forum.racesimcentral.com/showthread.php?t=325994

> What do you base that on.  I am too a bit confused about a few things Mazda, and your info may help me figure it out.

>> Someday I might try iRacing, but in it's current state, flaws like the
>> Mazda getting normal downforce while sliding sideways tells me that there's a lot more than just tweaking of
>> parameters required to "fix"
>> issues like this.
DavErb - 24 Aug 2008 00:14 GMT
> Andrew McP
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> on. That way I can stop humming Skippy, Skippy, Skippy the bush kangaroo
> every time I type it.

I concur as to the Skippy shorthand. It does bring images of teletubbieish
racecars skipping hand in hand through flowery meadows,; in other words, too
damn cute for any adult male to say out loud. I find myself resisting the
sugary tide be using Skip as my shorthand of choice. While not ideal at
least it gets rid of the cutsey ending and, since an English acquiaintance
informs me that skip can be a dumpster in the foggy isle, it brings a
certain working mans aroma to the name.

Dave
Andrew MacPherson - 24 Aug 2008 07:26 GMT
> since an English acquiaintance informs me that skip can be a
> dumpster in the foggy isle, it brings a certain working mans
> aroma to the name.

I don't think it's fair to allocate 'Skip' to the Skippy. It's certainly
far more of a kangaroo than a lump on inanimate metal for dumping trash
in. The Solstice on the other hand... ;-)

Andrew McP
Larry - 25 Aug 2008 17:57 GMT
Ain't that the damned truth LOL

I suspect you read my VIR post/thread :)

-Larry

> A@KS.com (PlowBoy) wrote:

> iRacing is the Jekyll & Hyde of sim racing. An angel one minute, a
> monster the next. ;-)
>
> Andrew McP
Maat - 22 Aug 2008 18:01 GMT
> Well, maybe. This is *me* we're talking about. ;-)

You had to write a novel just to tell us that you kinda like iRacing?
Andrew MacPherson - 22 Aug 2008 21:40 GMT
> You had to write a novel just to tell us that you kinda like
> iRacing?

Some people go for long walks to digest their thoughts, or drink to
celebrate their happiness. I tent to write my thoughts down for complete
strangers to be bored to death by.

I can only apologise when I get a 'little' carried away. It's easy enough
to ignore my posts though. :-)

Andrew McP
0-0-0-0-0 - 23 Aug 2008 02:45 GMT
LOL

Me laughing!  :)

0-0-0-0-0-0

>> You had to write a novel just to tell us that you kinda like
>> iRacing?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Andrew McP
hoover - 23 Aug 2008 14:52 GMT
>> You had to write a novel just to tell us that you kinda like
>> iRacing?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I can only apologise when I get a 'little' carried away. It's easy enough
> to ignore my posts though. :-)

Keep'em coming, Andy, it's always good to read from somebody who still
takes the time to sit and down put some structure into his writing
more than the usual OMGWTFLOLZ!!11Eleventy drivel. Now get off my lawn. ;-)

Cheers, Uwe

--
Maat - 23 Aug 2008 17:42 GMT
> Some people go for long walks to digest their thoughts, or drink to
> celebrate their happiness. I tent to write my thoughts down for complete
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Andrew McP

OK. But IMO a good writer says as much as they can in as few words as they
can. That's why IMO Dostoyevsky's Crime and Punishmwent is a much better
book than The Brothers Karamazov. Reading The Brothers Karamazov is like
reading a long winded soap opera, sort of like your post was. ;)
Andrew MacPherson - 23 Aug 2008 21:34 GMT
> But IMO a good writer says as much as they can in as few words as
> they can.

I agree. Thankfully I have never claimed to be a good writer. Like my
racing, it is more enthusiastic than accomplished. ;-)

Andrew McP
DavErb - 24 Aug 2008 00:04 GMT
>> You had to write a novel just to tell us that you kinda like
>> iRacing?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Andrew McP

I'll go on record that I enjoy your writings which , really, are hardly a
novel. A short story at most . Complete with beginning , middle and
hopefully a happy end. Anyway our various musings about I Racing seem to the
main food for the group these days.  Let not the critics cry you down :)

Dave
Andrew MacPherson - 24 Aug 2008 07:26 GMT
> Anyway our various musings about I Racing seem to the
> main food for the group these days.

It's definitely the only thing really worth talking about at the moment.
I just wish they'd release a single car (the Legends, not the Solstice!)
and track demo for open practise. Then everyone could get an idea what
we're talking about.

Andrew McP
0-0-0-0-0 - 24 Aug 2008 21:19 GMT
>> Anyway our various musings about I Racing seem to the
>> main food for the group these days.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Andrew McP

I also enjoy your writings Andrew !

My suspicion is that those complaining would be "buy"-products of the TV
generation with attention spans lasting less than 10 seconds.
For example; Americans are now "praising" O'bama as the new "savior of
change" and yet 10 seconds of thinking would make them realize that O'bama's
a BLOOD relative (cousin) to Bush and Cheney and Kerry......  More of the
same equals "change"  LOL

Keep writing... I'm still a READER, I stay away from the "truthless tv" and
I still have the ability to concentrate for over a minute.  Your posts have
a lot of information and are also (dare I say) FUN to read.

0-0-0-0-0-0
Maat - 24 Aug 2008 19:12 GMT
>Complete with beginning ,
> middle and hopefully a happy end.

Ah, another Disney fan, I see. Unfortunately, Disney is not reality.
DavErb - 24 Aug 2008 19:27 GMT
>>Complete with beginning ,
>> middle and hopefully a happy end.
>
> Ah, another Disney fan, I see. Unfortunately, Disney is not reality.

ah, a fan of the non sequitur I see. It too does not constitute reality

Dave
Maat - 25 Aug 2008 01:21 GMT
"DavErb" <erbdNOSPAM@THANKSkos.net> wrote in news:qel8o5-au1.ln1
@news.kos.net:

> ah, a fan of the non sequitur I see. It too does not constitute reality
>
> Dave

It's not my fault if you are too dim to follow the logic of my post. Let me
help you out. Disney = happy ending always, without fail
David Fisher's Left Testicle - 26 Aug 2008 16:28 GMT
>>Complete with beginning ,
>> middle and hopefully a happy end.
>
> Ah, another Disney fan, I see. Unfortunately, Disney is not reality.

He said 'hopefully' not 'definitely'!
hoover - 23 Aug 2008 14:49 GMT
>> Well, maybe. This is *me* we're talking about. ;-)
>
> You had to write a novel just to tell us that you kinda like iRacing?

I for one enjoy Andy's reports. If you don't, killfile him and be done
with it.

Thanks!

--
David Fisher's Left Testicle - 24 Aug 2008 16:11 GMT
>> Well, maybe. This is *me* we're talking about. ;-)
>
> You had to write a novel just to tell us that you kinda like iRacing?

News groups are for posting opinions, you fecking twat! The OP's post
actually made interesting reading.
Maat - 24 Aug 2008 19:14 GMT
"David Fisher's Left Testicle" <dfg.myass@aol> wrote in news:_Resk.154007
$ah4.94663@newsfe15.ams2:

> News groups are for posting opinions, you fecking twat! The OP's post
> actually made interesting reading.

True that, it is for opinions. IMO, you are a c.nt.
0-0-0-0-0 - 24 Aug 2008 21:23 GMT
> "David Fisher's Left Testicle" <dfg.myass@aol> wrote in news:_Resk.154007
> $ah4.94663@newsfe15.ams2:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> True that, it is for opinions. IMO, you are a c.nt.

You're not alone in that opinion !!!

But I think you give 'it' too much credit.... even a c--t has some
usefulness.
David Fisher's Left Testicle - 24 Aug 2008 22:10 GMT
> "David Fisher's Left Testicle" <dfg.myass@aol> wrote in news:_Resk.154007
> $ah4.94663@newsfe15.ams2:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> True that, it is for opinions. IMO, you are a c.nt.

Yeah, well, you're a c.nt for reading something you had little or no
interest in. The title was pretty clear.

Oh, no, have to go. My master is burping the worm again!
Maat - 25 Aug 2008 01:24 GMT
> Yeah, well, you're a c.nt for reading something you had little or no
> interest in. The title was pretty clear.

But I was interested until I realized the post was 100 pages long so
skipped to the ending and all it said was that he kind of liked iRacing.
Andrew MacPherson - 25 Aug 2008 03:05 GMT
> But I was interested until I realized the post was 100 pages long
> so skipped to the ending and all it said was that he kind of liked
> iRacing.

Life is not about the destination, it is about the journey.

Andrew McP... going nowhere slowly
jeffareid - 25 Aug 2008 10:00 GMT
> Andrew McP... going nowhere slowly

Should be "racing aimlessly", "getting nowhwere fast".
David Fisher's Left Testicle - 25 Aug 2008 09:50 GMT
>> Yeah, well, you're a c.nt for reading something you had little or no
>> interest in. The title was pretty clear.
>
> But I was interested until I realized the post was 100 pages long so
> skipped to the ending and all it said was that he kind of liked iRacing.

Poor didums, having to read something you didn't enjoy.

Yours sneeringly

Dave's left bollock.
Larry - 25 Aug 2008 18:13 GMT
Easy now.  Don't get your Vas Deferens in a twist :)

-Larry

> News groups are for posting opinions, you fecking twat! The OP's post
> actually made interesting reading.
David Fisher's Left Testicle - 25 Aug 2008 18:25 GMT
> Easy now.  Don't get your Vas Deferens in a twist :)

All to easy with all the fist action that happens around here, I can tell
you.

> -Larry
>
>> News groups are for posting opinions, you fecking twat! The OP's post
>> actually made interesting reading.
jeffareid - 23 Aug 2008 09:54 GMT
> The fourth race was a farce. My video locked up twice in warmup for a few
> seconds, resulting in a crash.

I leave the sides off on my computer (it's a mid-sized tower). It turns out to
be quieter because the fans run at slower speed. Also, I'm using an Intel
Core 2 X6800 (not overclocked), and the specs state that the in case temperature
needs to be below 40C, which is a temperature that the room the computer is in
never exceeds.
Andrew MacPherson - 23 Aug 2008 12:44 GMT
> I leave the sides off on my computer (it's a mid-sized tower). It
> turns out to be quieter because the fans run at slower speed.

I'm pretty sure my problems weren't heat-related in this instance. But I
do often run without the case side on during hot weather. My games
machine is built for speed rather than peace & quiet though (despite
having no need to overclock the E6600 since I stop flying flight sims so
often), so it's noisy with the side on, and even noisier with it off.

Although a 2 box solution can be a pain at times, having this quiet PC
for main use suits me very well.

Andrew McP
Larry - 25 Aug 2008 18:11 GMT
If you want quiet AND massive airflow, get yourself an Antec Nine-Hundred.
It's all 120 and 200mm fans.  Even on high speed, they are very quiet.

I am a Lian-Li fan, and I think the Nine-Hundred has kicked Lian-Li's a.s 
for now.

-Larry

>> I leave the sides off on my computer (it's a mid-sized tower). It
>> turns out to be quieter because the fans run at slower speed.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Andrew McP
jeffareid - 26 Aug 2008 06:56 GMT
> I am a Lian-Li fan, and I think the Nine-Hundred has kicked Lian-Li's a.s for now.

I also have a Lian Li case, but I have 4 hard drives just behind the bottom
two intake fans which is probably the issue, and why I leave my case open.
Larry - 25 Aug 2008 18:09 GMT
If your fans are slower/quieter with the case side off, you may not have
your cooling balanced properly and may have a pressure lock developing in
your system.  This can cause overheating due to poor air-flow, no matter how
much air you push in there.

Your fans need to be balanced.  What comes in needs to get out.  If you have
a lot more coming in than going out, your airflow becomes, um, constipated
:)

It's one of those things folks don't usually think about, and when they
throw another intake fan at the problem they end up making it worse instead
of better.

-Larry

>> The fourth race was a farce. My video locked up twice in warmup for a few
>> seconds, resulting in a crash.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> is in
> never exceeds.
 
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