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How long will iRacing survive as subscription service?

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jeffareid - 12 Aug 2008 04:01 GMT
My guess is about 3 years, although it could go longer if the
money guys are willing to keep plowing money into the program.

Once the newness wears off, some players will lose interest, just
as with any game or activity. I think it will be sometime late
this year or early next year before a trend is truly recognizable.

For some older, long time racing players, iRacing may turn out
to be the last "fling" with spending a lot of time online.

If iRacing were to cease being a subscription service and converted
into a purchaseable game, what would players be willing to pay for
it?

The only previous subscription racing game I can recall was EA's
Motor City Online, which lasted almost 3 years (October 2001 to
August 2004). It was never released as an offline game.

Another failed subscription game was URU Live, part of the Myst
series. The online content of the time and some stuff in the
works was eventually released as two games.
Andrew MacPherson - 12 Aug 2008 06:50 GMT
> My guess is about 3 years

I think I agree with you on just about everything. I will be very
surprised -- no doubt pleasantly -- if iRacing survives in its current
form for more than a few years... perhaps less if funding is pulled after
any early disappointments. When push comes to shove it is 'just another
sim' no matter how high their hopes of drawing in a wider audience, and
they don't exist in a sim vacuum.

With 40 staff or so to support (judging by interviews given in the past)
that's going to require very significant revenue streams, and I don't see
it coming from the current financial model.

I may be wrong, but once the public release happens they'll finally get
an idea what kind of pent up demand there is for their product. I'm
anticipating some disappointment, though they may have enough funding in
the bank to allow for a very slow & steady (hopefully) build up in
subscribers.

We'll see. It's a brave attempt to break the simming mould, and I'm
increasingly finding myself inclined to keep subscribing until after the
public release (at least) just to keep in touch with how iRacing
responds.

> If iRacing were to cease being a subscription service
> and converted into a purchaseable game, what would
> players be willing to pay for it?

I think there's no alternative to a basic subscription service (with a
premium bolt-on for higher leagues available?), given their aims. However
the subscription price needs to come down to the point where people don't
have to think twice about continuing even if they don't race much. That
would probably involve scaling down their operation and aims, but it
might ensure the project's survival for more than a short time once
Henry's investment money runs out. He can;t have a bottomless wallet.

Andrew McP

PS Currently I believe (from reading the forums) there are between 3 & 4k
subscribers. That's not bad considering its a closed programme. However
so far invites have only gone out to those most likely to subscribe. I'll
be genuinely fascinated to see what happens after the public debut.
hoover - 12 Aug 2008 10:09 GMT
The recent demise of 10tacle and the resulting loss of all internet
racing capability in GTR2 (unless you jump through burning hoops using
OpenVPN to simulate a "LAN event" to the software) shows again that
it#s a bad idea to put all your online eggs into one company's basket.

No idea what would happen to the rF lobby should ISI close shop
tomorrow, but I guess with all its moddability rF could be tweaked to
use an alterate lobby system.

All the best, Uwe

--
Andrew MacPherson - 12 Aug 2008 12:06 GMT
> shows again that it#s a bad idea to put all your online
> eggs into one company's basket.

It would be nice to think that if iRacing folded, the enthusiasts on the
team would ensure their work didn't die with them. But given the
corporate nature of the company and backing, I suspect if they decided to
shut the door they'd still want to sit very tight on the intellectual
property rights. So everyone would have to wave goodbye to their
investment in time and money.

That's quite a risk really, and that in itself might make it more likely
iRacing fails... a sort of self-fulfilling prophesy.

Andrew McP
JP - 12 Aug 2008 14:37 GMT
> > shows again that it#s a bad idea to put all your online
> > eggs into one company's basket.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Andrew McP

  Not only that, but if I'm not mistaken, iracing requires online
activation, etc.  If so, good luck running the program you *paid* for,
if/once the activation servers go down for good.

 Of course, when (not if) this happens, the usual "we promise we'll release
a patch so that activation, etc. isn't required anymore" line will come out.
In reality, that has yet to happen from all parties that have said it in the
past.

 Hopefully I'm mistaken on whether iracing requires such items.
Larry - 12 Aug 2008 16:16 GMT
iRacing does not use activation.  It does not need it.  It is an ONLINE ONLY
service.  Everything is done via the web page.

-Larry

>> > shows again that it#s a bad idea to put all your online
>> > eggs into one company's basket.
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
>  Hopefully I'm mistaken on whether iracing requires such items.
Ronald Stoehr - 12 Aug 2008 19:08 GMT
> iRacing does not use activation.  It does not need it.  It is an ONLINE
> ONLY service.  Everything is done via the web page.

That IS the activation. No website, no racing.

> -Larry
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>>
>>  Hopefully I'm mistaken on whether iracing requires such items.
Larry - 12 Aug 2008 21:16 GMT
Jeez, what a stretch, all in the name of using a word so hated in the
end-user software community.  Nice Job!

-Larry

>> iRacing does not use activation.  It does not need it.  It is an ONLINE
>> ONLY service.  Everything is done via the web page.
>
> That IS the activation. No website, no racing.
hoover - 13 Aug 2008 11:50 GMT
> Jeez, what a stretch, all in the name of using a word so hated in the
> end-user software community.  Nice Job!

He has a point, Larry. You cannot deny that while the GTR2 users (and
possibly GTL as well, dunno) are fscked now regarding online
racing. iRacing users / paying subscribers however will be truly
fscked should JH ever decide to call it a day and spend his money on
other projects. We will be left with nothing in this case, while GTR2
at least will provide offline enjoyment as long as the DVD lasts.

All the best, Uwe

--
jeffareid - 13 Aug 2008 12:12 GMT
> He has a point, Larry. You cannot deny that while the GTR2 users (and
> possibly GTL as well, dunno) are fscked now regarding online
> racing. iRacing users / paying subscribers however will be truly
> fscked should JH ever decide to call it a day and spend his money on
> other projects. We will be left with nothing in this case, while GTR2
> at least will provide offline enjoyment as long as the DVD lasts.

This is a bit off topic, but why was there a trend to do away with
the TCP-IP feature that the older racing games had? GPL and NR2003
had it, so did the older NFS games, High Stakes and Porsche Unleashed.
Now if there's any alternative to online play, it's just LAN. Is it
possible to come up with a "generic" LAN emulator that is really
TCP-IP for these games?
Larry - 13 Aug 2008 14:04 GMT
I call this the "EA Effect".

Probablly the same reason EA doesn't use the XBOX Live servers for it's
games (IMHO).  If they let loose of control of the online servers, they
would lose the ability to shut down a server thus forcing players to buy the
next version.  Or making the server so crappy, that people buy the next
version out of sheer frustration.  Anyone who has played Tiger Woods 2008 on
the XBOX over the last year knows what this feels like.

-Larry

> This is a bit off topic, but why was there a trend to do away with
> the TCP-IP feature that the older racing games had? GPL and NR2003
> had it, so did the older NFS games, High Stakes and Porsche Unleashed.
> Now if there's any alternative to online play, it's just LAN. Is it
> possible to come up with a "generic" LAN emulator that is really
> TCP-IP for these games?
Wingwong Woo - 13 Aug 2008 14:48 GMT
"jeffareid" <jeffareid@hotmail.com> wrote in news:9kzok.11799$i15.1410
@newsfe01.iad:

> This is a bit off topic, but why was there a trend to do away with
> the TCP-IP feature that the older racing games had? GPL and NR2003
> had it, so did the older NFS games, High Stakes and Porsche Unleashed.
> Now if there's any alternative to online play, it's just LAN. Is it
> possible to come up with a "generic" LAN emulator that is really
> TCP-IP for these games?

Yea, download Hamachi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamachi
Larry - 13 Aug 2008 14:02 GMT
Well now, ain't life one big risk...  A sink hole could swallow up my house
tomorrow and I'd be out a hell of a lot more than $13, plus a few paid-for
cars and tracks.

-Larry

> He has a point, Larry. You cannot deny that while the GTR2 users (and
> possibly GTL as well, dunno) are fscked now regarding online
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> --
JP - 14 Aug 2008 06:33 GMT
But insurance would take care of your house <g>

> Well now, ain't life one big risk...  A sink hole could swallow up my house
> tomorrow and I'd be out a hell of a lot more than $13, plus a few paid-for
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> >
> > All the best, Uwe
Wingwong Woo - 14 Aug 2008 15:41 GMT
>   But insurance would take care of your house <g>

I don't think vicitms of hurricane Katrina would agree with you.
Byron Forbes - 14 Aug 2008 00:35 GMT
>> Jeez, what a stretch, all in the name of using a word so hated in the
>> end-user software community.  Nice Job!
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> --

   I would be pretty sure that if iRacing is successful that it will
obviously become self sustaining and JH can take a hike for all anyone
cares. And pardon the blasphemy but there may even come a time when DK
himself can do likewise. Point being that anyone in the future will be able
to take the reigns (ie buy) of this potentially immortal project and keep it
going forever.
Tony R - 14 Aug 2008 15:09 GMT
> And pardon the blasphemy but there may even come a time when DK
> himself can do likewise.

Please form an orderly queue for the stones, there are plenty to go
around...
Tony R - 14 Aug 2008 14:48 GMT
> He has a point, Larry. You cannot deny that while the GTR2 users (and
> possibly GTL as well, dunno) are fscked now regarding online
> racing. iRacing users / paying subscribers however will be truly
> fscked should JH ever decide to call it a day and spend his money on
> other projects. We will be left with nothing in this case, while GTR2
> at least will provide offline enjoyment as long as the DVD lasts.

Though equally if my cable company pull the plug I won't be able to come
on here and moan about how I can't play iRacing any more! I will have to
go and source another internet service. If iRacing go awol I will have
to find another internet racing service.

Cheers
Tony
hoover - 15 Aug 2008 09:16 GMT
> Though equally if my cable company pull the plug I won't be able to come
> on here and moan about how I can't play iRacing any more! I will have to
> go and source another internet service. If iRacing go awol I will have
> to find another internet racing service.

True enough, still I was on about the *total* loss of accessibility in
the case of iRacing, while GTR and "classic" simtitles would still at
least provide some offline entertainment, not so with iRacing.

I've heard the GTR2 lobby seems to be back up (run by simbin now), but
I wouldn't hold my breath for a quick restoration of service when
iRacing goes belly up ;-> (still I wish them all the best)

Cheers, Uwe

--
JP - 14 Aug 2008 06:29 GMT
Ok, thanks.  Having said that, what happens if (when) the web page
vanishes ?

> iRacing does not use activation.  It does not need it.  It is an ONLINE ONLY
> service.  Everything is done via the web page.
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> >
> >  Hopefully I'm mistaken on whether iracing requires such items.
Larry - 14 Aug 2008 13:41 GMT
You fix your internet connection :)

-Larry

>  Ok, thanks.  Having said that, what happens if (when) the web page
> vanishes ?
JP - 15 Aug 2008 00:37 GMT
It would be working fine, but thanks :)

> You fix your internet connection :)
>
> -Larry
>
> >  Ok, thanks.  Having said that, what happens if (when) the web page
> > vanishes ?
David Fisher's Left Testicle - 12 Aug 2008 18:30 GMT
>> > shows again that it#s a bad idea to put all your online
>> > eggs into one company's basket.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> activation, etc.  If so, good luck running the program you *paid* for,
> if/once the activation servers go down for good.

It isn't 'paid' for! One pays to use (hire) it. It's a simple enough
concept.

>  Of course, when (not if) this happens, the usual "we promise we'll
> release
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the
> past.

So now you can see into the future.

>  Hopefully I'm mistaken on whether iracing requires such items.

Hmmm.
JP - 14 Aug 2008 06:31 GMT
> >> > shows again that it#s a bad idea to put all your online
> >> > eggs into one company's basket.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> It isn't 'paid' for! One pays to use (hire) it. It's a simple enough
> concept.

  You mean you didn't have to pay money to access the program ?  <wink>

> >  Of course, when (not if) this happens, the usual "we promise we'll
> > release
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> So now you can see into the future.

  Based on several examples from other companies in the past, yes.

> >  Hopefully I'm mistaken on whether iracing requires such items.
>
> Hmmm.
David Fisher's Left Testicle - 18 Aug 2008 18:23 GMT
>> > "Andrew MacPherson" <andrew.mcp@DELETETHISdsl.pipex.com> wrote in
> message
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
>   You mean you didn't have to pay money to access the program ?  <wink>

You don't own it. It's hired. Simple concept.

>> >  Of course, when (not if) this happens, the usual "we promise we'll
>> > release
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>   Based on several examples from other companies in the past, yes.

But iRacing is different. So you can't say 'when (not if)' in this context.
All you are going is having a guess.

>> >  Hopefully I'm mistaken on whether iracing requires such items.
>>
>> Hmmm.
Tim Wheatley - 18 Aug 2008 20:49 GMT
> >   You mean you didn't have to pay money to access the program ?  <wink>
>
> You don't own it. It's hired. Simple concept.

Similar to most EULA's. :) They give you permission to use their
software on your computer in the ways they specify.
jeffareid - 19 Aug 2008 06:11 GMT
> > You don't own it. It's hired. Simple concept.

> Similar to most EULA's. They give you permission to use their
> software on your computer in the ways they specify.

A bit off topic, but ...

In box EULAs are legally meaningless in some states of the USA, and
in the few cases that come to court, they have a low rate of standing
up in court. Merely opening a box, or clicking on some "accept" button
during installation doesn't cut it in most courts.

Real EULAs generally only exist with expensive corporate oriented
software, viw written contracts which much be signed before software
is delivered.

In spite of what the EULA's state, software is purchased, not "rented",
except in the case of online services like Motor City Online and now
iRacing.
JP - 19 Aug 2008 22:15 GMT
> >> > "Andrew MacPherson" <andrew.mcp@DELETETHISdsl.pipex.com> wrote in
> > message
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> You don't own it. It's hired. Simple concept.

Whoosh............backspace, Richie Rich, or whatever other moniker you're
using this month.

> >> >  Of course, when (not if) this happens, the usual "we promise we'll
> >> > release
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> But iRacing is different. So you can't say 'when (not if)' in this context.
> All you are going is having a guess.

  Lol, thats what is said everytime this type of thing comes up.
Maat - 26 Aug 2008 19:23 GMT
> Whoosh............backspace, Richie Rich, or whatever other moniker
> you're using this month.

Wow, you really need to learn how to snip the posts you are replying to.
You had almost everyone in this thread quoted, except me, moron.
JP - 26 Aug 2008 22:13 GMT
> > Whoosh............backspace, Richie Rich, or whatever other moniker
> > you're using this month.
>
> Wow, you really need to learn how to snip the posts you are replying to.
> You had almost everyone in this thread quoted, except me, moron.

  Hiya Backspace !  Love the new nick.
Wingwong Woo - 13 Aug 2008 14:43 GMT
> It's a brave attempt to break the simming mould,

BS! It's a greedy attempt to cash in.
Tony R - 14 Aug 2008 15:17 GMT
> I think I agree with you on just about everything. I will be very
> surprised -- no doubt pleasantly -- if iRacing survives in its current
> form for more than a few years...

It is quite intriquing I admit. The problem is it is hard to think
outside of the traditional sim model. I really couldn't hazard a guess
how iRacing will look in a few years. There has to be a very cunning
plan. Too cunning even for the most cunning foxes of RAS...

> When push comes to shove it is 'just another
> sim' no matter how high their hopes of drawing in a wider audience, and
> they don't exist in a sim vacuum.

ah! You prove my point sir!

I don't think it is modelled on hope but we shall see :)

Cheers
Tony
Byron Forbes - 12 Aug 2008 12:04 GMT
> My guess is about 3 years, although it could go longer if the
> money guys are willing to keep plowing money into the program.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> series. The online content of the time and some stuff in the
> works was eventually released as two games.

   Subscription has nothing to do with it. There is a constamt influx of
youth into the world and also older people who consider sim racing for the
first time later in their life. When either group check out what's
available, they will simply migrate to the best sim that offers what they're
looking for.

   It's just that simple.

   What so many of you are failing to understand also, is that iRacing is
not just a sim - it's a service that offers MUCH more than any sim in a box
ever will. It has been my view for donkeys years that what iRacing is doing
right now is what sim racing has always needed - organised and officially
sactioned sim racing as a sport. They have taken it a step further by making
it a proper training tool for real life racers.
Andrew MacPherson - 12 Aug 2008 12:08 GMT
> It's just that simple.

Hopefully you're right.

Andrew McP
jeffareid - 12 Aug 2008 12:39 GMT
>> Once the newness wears off, some players will lose interest, just
>> as with any game or activity. I think it will be sometime late
>> this year or early next year before a trend is truly recognizable.

> Subscription has nothing to do with it. There is a constamt influx of youth into the world and also older people who
> consider sim racing for the first time later in their life. When either group check out what's available, they will
> simply migrate to the best sim that offers what they're looking for.

In my area, (USA), most of the youth that are playing games of any type
are either into console games, first person shooters, or role playing games.
Simulation oriented racing games are a tiny market in the USA, so I don't
know how it is outside the USA, but currently, it seems that iRacing
servers will only be based in the USA, resulting in lag issues for players
from other countries.

I just don't see that many people migrating to any racing sim these days,
as it's my opinion that the heydays of sim racing are gone. It was moderately
popular from about 1999 to 2005 and since then interest has waned, for
multple reasons; player burn out, a much larger variety of games available
now, plus all the add-ons for these games splintering the player pool into
small groups. What's left is a dedicated core of racing sim players, and
I question if there are enough of them for iRacing's current business model
to sustain it for more than about 3 years.

> What so many of you are failing to understand also, is that iRacing is not just a sim - it's a service that offers
> much more than any sim in a box ever will.

What is the advantage of a service versus a boxed or downloadable and
expandable game? The disadvantage is obvious, if the service goes away, so
does your game. This is the question that potential subscribers will be
asking.
Byron Forbes - 13 Aug 2008 01:27 GMT
>>> Once the newness wears off, some players will lose interest, just
>>> as with any game or activity. I think it will be sometime late
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> model
> to sustain it for more than about 3 years.

   So sim racing died shortly after Papyrus did - just a co-incidence? Just
after the last sim (N2003) that made simming easy and simple?

>> What so many of you are failing to understand also, is that iRacing is
>> not just a sim - it's a service that offers much more than any sim in a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> does your game. This is the question that potential subscribers will be
> asking.

   Well it seems that another thing you fail to understand is that iRacing
is nothing without the surrounding service - and that's fine with me because
without that I probably wouldn't give a stuff anyway. As far as I'm
concerned, just making a sim without an accompanying service is no longer
good enough. And i dont mean just a server either.
jeffareid - 13 Aug 2008 03:48 GMT
>> as it's my opinion that the heydays of sim racing are gone. It was moderately popular from about 1999 to 2005 and
>> since then interest has waned

> So sim racing died shortly after Papyrus did - just a co-incidence? Just after the last sim (N2003) that made simming
> easy and simple?

Not just sim racing, but also online racing in general. The first few nights
(USA time) of the Need For Speed Underground 2 demo (October, 2004),
there were 1000 players online. The actual game was released a month later.
By the fall of 2005, there were less than 50 players online on the USA server,
with around 100 on the European server. RD3 created an online spike in
2006, more so outside the USA, as internet and broadband where more abundant
outside the USA by then, but it never came close to the number of online
racing game players in early 2005.

> Well it seems that another thing you fail to understand is that iRacing is nothing without the surrounding service -
> and that's fine with me because without that I probably wouldn't give a stuff anyway. As far as I'm concerned, just
> making a sim without an accompanying service is no longer good enough. And i dont mean just a server either.

It wouldn't be nothing, it would be a great sim, and besides, the online play
is independent of how it's paid for. There are many players that are happy
to mostly play offline with an occasional venture online, but iRacing doesn't
offer that option, yet.

It's clear that iRacing's current format appeals to many racing sim players, but
the issue here is if there will be enough of those players over a 3 year span
do keep the current business model intact.
Larry - 12 Aug 2008 13:49 GMT
I have one question.

Are you, or have you, ever signed up for iRacing ?

-Larry

> My guess is about 3 years, although it could go longer if the
> money guys are willing to keep plowing money into the program.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> series. The online content of the time and some stuff in the
> works was eventually released as two games.
Rob P - 12 Aug 2008 17:54 GMT
>> My guess is about 3 years, although it could go longer if the
>> money guys are willing to keep plowing money into the program.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>> series. The online content of the time and some stuff in the
>> works was eventually released as two games.

I think this sim will last for a very long time. As an aspiring, but crap
sim racer, this is just the kind of thing I've been looking for. A proper
persistent league. I have actually been in races now where I'm battling the
last 3 or 4 places in the race - awesome fun.

I remember on one occasion I spooked the guy in front so much that he spun
on the barrel roll in Laguna - luckily I was slow enough at that point that
I could avoid him. Playing against real people definetley makes a
difference.

Another advantage that iRacing seems to have is that it's sim seems to be
separated from the league stuff. In theory if new sim technology gets
developed or new graphics techniques come to the fore, iRacing can just
release an updated sim. They would be in a much stronger position to do
this, compared to other Software Houses as they will have a continuous
revenue stream.

My only concern is the price. Personally I think if it's going to be 20$ a
month, the rest of the package, in terms of new tracks and cars should be
free. This makes for a much more attractive package.

RobP
Larry - 12 Aug 2008 18:12 GMT
You really do not want to pay per month.  The first month to try it out?
Sure.  But after that if you decide you are going to do it, DO IT!

Buy the full year.  It drops the price down to $13 a month ($156 for the
year) AND:

1.  You get $60 iRacing credit to spend as you wish for future purchases
(cars, tracks or if anything is left over, your next subscription year if
you wish).

2.  Don't forget, there are discounts for buying things in groups.  I
believe 6 items (cars or tracks) net a 20% discount.

$13 a month is less than a single pizza, delivered.  Think about it :)

Considering the investment JH & Co have put into this, it is not really that
expensive.  Frankly, I was sure it was going to cost twice this much.

-Larry

> My only concern is the price. Personally I think if it's going to be 20$ a
> month, the rest of the package, in terms of new tracks and cars should be
> free. This makes for a much more attractive package.
>
> RobP
Rob P - 12 Aug 2008 19:09 GMT
> You really do not want to pay per month.  The first month to try it out?
> Sure.  But after that if you decide you are going to do it, DO IT!
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> -Larry

The year package is certainly a pretty good deal. The only problem is that
my family and I suspect most others, operate on a monthly budget and $156 is
quite a whack from one month. In addition, I wouldn't buy an annual package
until the sim has been out a while.

Didn't know about the discounts on buying the extras and that is certainly
welcome news.

I still think, despite the work that's gone in, that the subscription should
cover the cost of the vehicles and tracks. Maybe I'm to used to MMO's where
one buys the game, subscribes for 16 dollars or so and gets pretty much all
the content, plus new regular content and the publisher keeps track of
various leagues like PvP.

Despite this, iRacing must have got their sums right, as it is very likely
that I will be staying, even at the $20 a month model...

RobP
Larry - 12 Aug 2008 21:18 GMT
You're talking 6 figures plus to laser-scan a track.  At least that's what I
read.  I can understand them asking a bit for it :)

-Larry

>> You really do not want to pay per month.  The first month to try it out?
>> Sure.  But after that if you decide you are going to do it, DO IT!
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> RobP
jeffareid - 13 Aug 2008 00:36 GMT
> You're talking 6 figures plus to laser-scan a track.
> At least that's what I read.  I can understand them asking a bit for it.

Probably off by a factor 10 or more. I can imaging the cost ranging from
10,000 to 100,000, depending on the track rental costs (if there's an off
season, the lower end of this range).

Some guy laser scanned Eastern Creek on a "budget" for about $3,000, but his
track time was free (Eastern Creek considered it publicity for their track),
and he rented a moderately priced laser scanner. The track is a free addon
for rFactor. Videos of the track:

http://jeffareid.net/rfr/rfrecpnz.wmv

http://jeffareid.net/rfr/rfrec2005f1e.wmv
jeffareid - 13 Aug 2008 00:22 GMT
> Are you, or have you, ever signed up for iRacing ?

No, and no plans to do so in the near future. Currently I'm in
casual gaming mode, but may join iRacing in the not so near
future if it looks like it will survive.
rqk - 13 Aug 2008 01:32 GMT
I think the pricing will drive some people away (no matter how many
pizzas they do without :).

The price can add up to way more than any racing sim cost previously and
 you have to keep paying to drive it.  For fun, pick your favorite sim,
and apply the iRacing cost structure (number of cars, tracks and how
long you played it) and you'll be shocked at how much it would have
cost.  That's what your iRacing cost could turn out to be (give or take
a pizza or so).

Just a small example. After getting my D license I was enthused about
buying the Skip Barber car and competing. Then I realized I had to buy
not only the car, but 3 more tracks. Oh and about that time I had to
send in another $20 for the next month (since I am still on monthly.)

Don't get me wrong, I love what they are doing and I might really get
sucked into it even with my price concerns, but the cost could really
add up over time.
Bob Loblaw - 13 Aug 2008 16:01 GMT
>I think the pricing will drive some people away (no matter how many pizzas
>they do without :).
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> sucked into it even with my price concerns, but the cost could really add
> up over time.

When you say buying the Skip Barber car, you mean with real life currency?
schooner - 13 Aug 2008 16:08 GMT
Thre only included cars are the legend and solstice I believe as part of the
monthly fee, the rest come at a one time additional cost, as will additional
tracks.

>>I think the pricing will drive some people away (no matter how many pizzas
>>they do without :).
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> When you say buying the Skip Barber car, you mean with real life currency?
rqk - 14 Aug 2008 00:11 GMT
> When you say buying the Skip Barber car, you mean with real life currency?

Well I wasn't figuring in the iRacing dollars, so yes I was thinking
real money.   You only get 2 cars and a few tracks, so everything else
you want (or need for a series) has to be purchased extra as a one time
charge.
Bob Loblaw - 14 Aug 2008 04:03 GMT
>> When you say buying the Skip Barber car, you mean with real life
>> currency?
>
> Well I wasn't figuring in the iRacing dollars, so yes I was thinking real
> money.   You only get 2 cars and a few tracks, so everything else you want
> (or need for a series) has to be purchased extra as a one time charge.

How much are the Radical and the Skip Barber?
rqk - 14 Aug 2008 23:29 GMT
> How much are the Radical and the Skip Barber?

They are both $15.00 each.
mookytc - 13 Aug 2008 18:17 GMT
> My guess is about 3 years, although it could go longer if the
> money guys are willing to keep plowing money into the program.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> series. The online content of the time and some stuff in the
> works was eventually released as two games.

This is my theory on the whole Iracing plan.

What is being offered now is just the basic, tip of the iceberg plan.
Iracing is in with Rousch-Fenway racing. EA sports will lose the
license for Nascar games. At that point Iracing (already with their
foot in the door due to their currrent affiliations) will get control
making it an online subscription service.

Americans love their Na$car racing so what a perfect way to boost the
number of subscribers and boost profits. There has not been a good
Nascar game since N2K so why not return the license to the team who
knows how to get it done. This time modern era online, pay as you go
style.

My two cents...

DC
Rob P - 13 Aug 2008 18:25 GMT
> This is my theory on the whole Iracing plan.
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> DC

Sounds plausible. I think being the first and having their contacts and a
continuous revenue stream will mean that they can keep producing content. I
remember on my registration questionnaire they even asked if I liked
motorcycle sims...

As an aside, I have never fully understood Americans devotion to the oval
circuit, maybe they don't understand why Europeans like going around windy
circuits... I haven't done an oval yet in iRacing, but will try it at least
once just to see what the fuss is about!

RobP
Tony R - 14 Aug 2008 15:04 GMT
> As an aside, I have never fully understood Americans devotion to the
> oval circuit, maybe they don't understand why Europeans like going
> around windy circuits... I haven't done an oval yet in iRacing, but will
> try it at least once just to see what the fuss is about!

I have complete two oval races in the Legends just to find out what they
 were like in iRacing.

Somewhat remarkably with zero incidents and midfield finishes.

They are incredibly intense at such a short track and continually
amongst traffic. I can see why they become addictive. I had the ffb set
a bit high in one race and I felt quite knackered come the end :)

The tricky thing for a genuine rookie who really knows very little about
short oval racing (I followed Mansell's progress in Indycars back in '93
and that is the extent of my oval track knowledge) is that it can feel a
bit overwhelming as with the strong US contingent in iRacing everyone
else seems to know what they are doing.

I am less inclined to jump into races to see how I get on, so it would
be good to coordinate joining practice sessions so that rookie europeans
like me can jump in and get to grips with running in traffic and making
moves without ruining other's races and SRs. Hopefully we can get that
organised in the West Europe Club.

Cheers
Tony
Larry - 13 Aug 2008 20:26 GMT
On the Nascar thing?  We can only hope :)

-Larry

On Aug 11, 11:01 pm, "jeffareid" <jeffar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> My guess is about 3 years, although it could go longer if the
> money guys are willing to keep plowing money into the program.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> series. The online content of the time and some stuff in the
> works was eventually released as two games.

This is my theory on the whole Iracing plan.

What is being offered now is just the basic, tip of the iceberg plan.
Iracing is in with Rousch-Fenway racing. EA sports will lose the
license for Nascar games. At that point Iracing (already with their
foot in the door due to their currrent affiliations) will get control
making it an online subscription service.

Americans love their Na$car racing so what a perfect way to boost the
number of subscribers and boost profits. There has not been a good
Nascar game since N2K so why not return the license to the team who
knows how to get it done. This time modern era online, pay as you go
style.

My two cents...

DC
btgoss - 13 Aug 2008 20:42 GMT
City of Heroes has around 130K subscribers.
Eve Online has around 70K subscribers.
I have posted many times that for iRacing to be successful it is going
to need numbers at least approaching Eve Online.
After having played the game for almost a month, I don't see anything
that has changed my mind.
Also, while I really like the sim/game I have to admit I am most
likely the development teams worst nightware.
I love racing Legends cars on short oval tracks.
Love it.
It is like racing with a good bunch of NR2K3 players in a good fixed
setup race. I will most likely not buy too many of the add-ons, or at
least not until I am King of the Legends. Too many people like me and
the numbers needed go up even more.
Andrew MacPherson - 15 Aug 2008 05:14 GMT
> My guess is about 3 years

Yesterday, spurred on by learning about the Historix mod for rFactor, I
took a fresh look at LFS and rFactor. And found both of them awful to
drive. Disturbingly unsatisfying.

Back to iRacing and my Skippy (still a slug off the line and in need of a
new 1st gear to enable a little wheel spin) was a pleasure to drive. It's
like GPL all over again, though that awful (ok, 'challenging') Solstice
masks the fact that you're driving quite a revolutionary engine.

Or am I just getting brainwashed? That'd be a shame, because the pound's
sinking like a rock at the moment (probably due to excessive temporary
enthusiasm for the dollar), which means iRacing is getting more expensive
by the day. I could do with some level-headed rationality!

Anyway, after my initial Skippy VIR races, where some truly awful driving
by others marred my experience, I've had three races now in which close,
careful racing at my end of the field has been present, and there have
been fewer hot shots driving routinely beyond their limits. I suppose
that's inevitable as the week wears on and more people find their feet on
the track.

Who knows what's going on in my head... brainwashing, assimilation, or
just the slow, steady, reluctant realisation that this darned sim might
be worth all the money and hassle after all? I've seen enough good racing
now to imagine making it a routine part of my gaming life... which has
been dwindling towards nothing over the last 12 months. It's nice to have
something which is actually persuading me to turn on the games box down
the desk which I built for Crysis (which I still haven't finished).

I need to think about all this... or maybe just stop typing so I don't
seem like such an idiot changing my mind every day? ;-)

What I should probably do is give in to the dark side... buy a whole
year's subscription (giving the maximum iRacing 'cashback' to spend on
cars & tracks) and write it off as a hardware upgrade. After all,
everything we buy for our PCs depreciates to just about nothing very
quickly these days. If I just drive for a year, then give up, it'll be no
worse than buying a decent graphics card and watching it fall in price.

Mmm... except at the end of the year I still have a graphics card. :-)

Andrew McP

PS Of course none of this means iRacing, or my enjoyment, will last
anything like 3 years. Perhaps it's simply a time to forget cynicism and
do the carpe diem thing?
Tony R - 15 Aug 2008 08:11 GMT
> Anyway, after my initial Skippy VIR races, where some truly awful driving
> by others marred my experience, I've had three races now in which close,
> careful racing at my end of the field has been present, and there have
> been fewer hot shots driving routinely beyond their limits. I suppose
> that's inevitable as the week wears on and more people find their feet on
> the track.

It should be the ratings simply working for you.

 > Mmm... except at the end of the year I still have a graphics card. :-)

That'll be worth loads... :)

> PS Of course none of this means iRacing, or my enjoyment, will last
> anything like 3 years. Perhaps it's simply a time to forget cynicism and
> do the carpe diem thing?

At this rate we will all chip in :)

Cheers
Tony
Andrew MacPherson - 16 Aug 2008 09:51 GMT
> That'll be worth loads... :)

My 8800GTS is well over a year old and handles everything I throw at it
(with a few compromises, obviously). It may not be worth much, but its
value to me is still very high.

All iRacing leaves you with is memories.  :-)

Andrew McP
Larry - 15 Aug 2008 18:41 GMT
Andrew,

If you are going to sign up for a year, make sure you do it before the 29th.
28th to be safe.  There is a $15 bonus iRacing credit that's going to be
applied to those accounts that have year-long subscriptions at that time :)

Free car!

-Larry

>> My guess is about 3 years
>
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
> anything like 3 years. Perhaps it's simply a time to forget cynicism and
> do the carpe diem thing?
Andrew MacPherson - 16 Aug 2008 09:51 GMT
> If you are going to sign up for a year, make sure you
> do it before the 29th.

My month runs out on the 31st anyway, so I have to decide before then.
It'd be a good way of forcing me to drive, because I hate to waste money.
:-)

Before then though I have to work out whether it's two weeks of racing
regularly (for the first time in years) which is causing renewed problems
in my hands. I now remember it was a factor in why I stopped driving GPL
regularly, and I think it's because I'm a pretty tense driver... I
sometimes realise I'm hanging onto the wheel like it was stopping me
drowning. So I need to work on relaxing my wheel technique as well as
tightening my lap times. So I suspect this may nudge me into a buying a
month at a time.

Besides, the Skippy is the only car I intend to drive* (to stop me
diluting my limited talent across too many tracks and cars), so a bulk
discount for tracks & vehicles isn't top of my priority list.

I also think there will need to be more aggressive discounts available
later on. It's the yearly subs which should form the core of iRacing's
business model (as it allows a degree of predictable income which the
monthlies can't match in business terms), so they have every reason to
actively promote it, especially if growth is as slow as we think it might
be.

Andrew McP

*famous last words!
DavErb - 17 Aug 2008 01:13 GMT
> snip

> Before then though I have to work out whether it's two weeks of racing
> regularly (for the first time in years) which is causing renewed problems
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> *famous last words!

I used to have some numbness in my hands back when I used a Force feedback
wheel. Had to turn the FF effects almost to nil. Changed to a non FF wheel
over a year ago and I'm not getting the numbness anymore. I miss the
information the FF gave me but retaining the feeling in my hands was a
better deal :)

Dave
Andrew MacPherson - 17 Aug 2008 06:42 GMT
> I used to have some numbness in my hands back when I
> used a Force feedback wheel.

My previous wheel had no FFB, and I have it dialled back in iRacing, so
I'm pretty sure it's just the prolonged gripping, combined with twitching
the paddle shift, which is the problem.

I must experiment with my Momo's buttons instead of the paddles, but
they're not ideally placed for routine use. At the moment th easiest two
are mapped to view left & right, but a combination of the overhead mirror
and wing mirrors on the Skippy make the view buttons fairly redundant.

Andrew McP
Rob P - 17 Aug 2008 08:50 GMT
>> I used to have some numbness in my hands back when I
>> used a Force feedback wheel.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Andrew McP

I've been using a joystick for iRacing <hides>, though I do have a force
feedback microsoft wheel and pedals. Is it worth going to a wheel? I know
the last time I tried the wheel - a long time ago with GPL my lap times were
considerably slower.

I guess I should make this decision sooner rather than later, before I leave
the ranks of the rookie.

Btw How is the force feedback in iRacing? Worth making the switch for?

RobP
Andrew MacPherson - 17 Aug 2008 11:08 GMT
> I've been using a joystick for iRacing <hides>

I remember quite a few people staying with a stick for steering in GPL.
Apparently it can give you an advantage because you can 'spin' through
the full wheel range more quickly.

I first raced GPL with a stick and it took quite a while to adapt to a
wheel (especially as I've never driven in real life). Looking at my lap
times, some would say I never have. :-)

> Btw How is the force feedback in iRacing?

I'm not a huge fan of it in any game to be honest... unless it's minimal
I just find it distracting. But everyone seems to say iRacing's FFB is
very good (once you've got it tweaked to your preferences).

I also think FFB is a marketing device by manufacturers... what better
for profits than building in a system of motors & gears which are bound
to wear out long before the pots do? :-)

Andrew McP
jeffareid - 18 Aug 2008 00:34 GMT
>> Btw How is the force feedback in iRacing?
>
> I'm not a huge fan of it in any game to be honest... unless it's minimal
> I just find it distracting.

Force feedback behaves as an assist in some games. In GTR and GTR2, the
steering goes unrealistically light when the fronts are at the limit.
In LFS, the force feedback tends to unrealistically point the tires in
the direction of travel in the case of severe oversteer. The tendencies
may be based on realisim, but are greatly exagerrated in these games.
Larry - 18 Aug 2008 14:16 GMT
Funny you should mention that.

I've been racing a lot more recently, and I've noticed discomfort/weakness
in my arms at the inner edges of the arms just in front of the elbow joint.
It's actually getting pretty bad right now.  I couldn't even lift a frying
pan this morning.

-Larry

> I used to have some numbness in my hands back when I used a Force feedback
> wheel. Had to turn the FF effects almost to nil. Changed to a non FF wheel
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Dave
jeffareid - 19 Aug 2008 06:15 GMT
>> I used to have some numbness in my hands back when I used a Force feedback wheel. Had to turn the FF effects almost
>> to nil. Changed to a non FF wheel over a year ago and I'm not getting the numbness anymore. I miss the information
>> the FF gave me but retaining the feeling in my hands was a better deal :)

> I've been racing a lot more recently, and I've noticed discomfort/weakness in my arms at the inner edges of the arms
> just in front of the elbow joint. It's actually getting pretty bad right now.  I couldn't even lift a frying pan this
> morning.

Which is part of the reason I use two light centering force joysticks for
gaming, one for steering, the other for throttle / brake. Virtually no
fatigue factor. I rest my elbow on the arms of the chair.
 
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