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Racing Legends cancelled.

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reggie white - 21 Aug 2005 04:29 GMT
The West Brothers have announced what most of us already knew. Racing
Legends is officially cancelled.
Steve Simpson - 21 Aug 2005 05:06 GMT
> The West Brothers have announced what most of us already knew. Racing  
> Legends is officially cancelled.

Source?

I guess they just weren't able to find better shots of the interior of the  
Lotus transporter :(
Steve Whitty - 21 Aug 2005 06:40 GMT
>> The West Brothers have announced what most of us already knew. Racing
>> Legends is officially cancelled.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I guess they just weren't able to find better shots of the interior of the
> Lotus transporter :(

maybe they've joined forces with iRacing  LOL

cheers

steve
jason moyer - 21 Aug 2005 17:38 GMT
> maybe they've joined forces with iRacing  LOL

LOLOLOLOL

Er, wait, I don't get it (?)
redTed - 21 Aug 2005 14:04 GMT
> The West Brothers have announced what most of us already knew. Racing
> Legends is officially cancelled.

And some of us knew this in 2001 but were ritually abused and ridiculed by
all and sundry.
Ellison, Simmons...etc.
whooo - 21 Aug 2005 14:59 GMT
>>The West Brothers have announced what most of us already knew. Racing
>>Legends is officially cancelled.
>
> And some of us knew this in 2001 but were ritually abused and ridiculed by
> all and sundry.
> Ellison, Simmons...etc.

...and you'd have bet your life on it! Yeah, right. <ROLLS EYES>
redTed - 21 Aug 2005 16:53 GMT
>> And some of us knew this in 2001 but were ritually abused and ridiculed
>> by all and sundry.
>> Ellison, Simmons...etc.
> ...and you'd have bet your life on it! Yeah, right. <ROLLS EYES>

It wasn't a life or death issue. It was something that seriously pissed me
off at the time tho.
There were lots of "<ROLLS EYES>" when I suggested all the West's *self
made* hype and propaganda was nothing but hot air.
I don't recall you being around then either. Perhaps you're Simmons in
disguise.
whooo - 21 Aug 2005 19:10 GMT
>>>And some of us knew this in 2001 but were ritually abused and ridiculed
>>>by all and sundry.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> I don't recall you being around then either. Perhaps you're Simmons in
> disguise.

IIRC, no one really disagreed that RL might not appear. It was more your
rudeness towards the Wests - who owed you nothing btw- that people
didn't like.
redTed - 21 Aug 2005 20:55 GMT
>>>>And some of us knew this in 2001 but were ritually abused and ridiculed
>>>>by all and sundry.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> rudeness towards the Wests - who owed you nothing btw- that people didn't
> like.

Rudeness on Usenet ????? Whatever next.
In the great scheme of things, my "rudeness" was rather tame compared to
some of the crap going on even now in this ng.

Apparently the West's didn't owe anybody anything. Hands up all those who've
actually played any car sims designed by the West's.
Perhaps you're one of the nitwits who forked out for their merchandise.
whooo - 21 Aug 2005 22:13 GMT
>>>>>And some of us knew this in 2001 but were ritually abused and ridiculed
>>>>>by all and sundry.
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> actually played any car sims designed by the West's.
> Perhaps you're one of the nitwits who forked out for their merchandise.

Sorry, I thought you were upset because some people on here were rude to
you! IIRC you admitted you were at fault at the time and whined about
how rude people were to you.

Live by the sword, die by the sword, sonny!

The Wests owe me nothing. Do they owe you anything?
redTed - 21 Aug 2005 22:21 GMT
>>>>>>And some of us knew this in 2001 but were ritually abused and
>>>>>>ridiculed by all and sundry.
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> you! IIRC you admitted you were at fault at the time and whined about how
> rude people were to you.

Already stated that..."It was something that seriously pissed me off at the
time tho."
Sorry, you're memory must be fading with age. Your take on the fiasco reeks
of D.Ellison.
I claim my £5 Dougie boy.

> The Wests owe me nothing. Do they owe you anything?

How about an apology for leading so many ppl up the garden path ?
Or selling them products to fund their scam.
etc....

A tin of Salmon looks like the only thing I'll ever get made by anybody
called West.
And I hate fish.
whooo - 22 Aug 2005 07:16 GMT
>>>>>>>And some of us knew this in 2001 but were ritually abused and
>>>>>>>ridiculed by all and sundry.
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> called West.
> And I hate fish.

You call it a scam, which could be a libellous statement. I think the
time has come for you to make you libellous claim under your real name.
Then the West boys can decide if they want to sue you or not.
redTed - 22 Aug 2005 16:03 GMT
>> A tin of Salmon looks like the only thing I'll ever get made by anybody
>> called West.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> has come for you to make you libellous claim under your real name. Then
> the West boys can decide if they want to sue you or not.

Ooh,  I've never seen a vapourware court case before. Do you think they can
sell some more virtual crap to mark the occasion ?
All this coming from someone called whooo. Or perhaps that is your real
name. Doug"Whooo"Ellison. Or maybe you just like trains.

Your support for the "West boys"(lol) is admirable. Perhaps they'll give you
a position on their next project. Hahahahahaha
whooo - 22 Aug 2005 17:06 GMT
>>>A tin of Salmon looks like the only thing I'll ever get made by anybody
>>>called West.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Your support for the "West boys"(lol) is admirable. Perhaps they'll give you
> a position on their next project. Hahahahahaha

So you are happy to accuse a couple of guys of running a scam, but you
don't want to actually put your real name to your libel just in case you
get sued. Is that it? If you had any backbone at all, you would withdraw
your libel and say sorry.

In truth, you are just a jobshite with a computer!
redTed - 22 Aug 2005 17:36 GMT
>> Ooh,  I've never seen a vapourware court case before. Do you think they
>> can sell some more virtual crap to mark the occasion ?
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> In truth, you are just a jobshite with a computer!

LOL..Fully paid up member. Just like you and all the other no-marks. Or are
you better ?

Actually, a court case with "the West boys" might be a good idea. They would
then have to come up with some tangible proof of Racing Legends or my "scam"
comment would be proven, wouldn't it ?
You really think I should apologise to a couple of two bit wannabe game
designers who can't even keep a web page up to date ?
Get real.
Plowboy - 22 Aug 2005 17:58 GMT
Sheesh, whooo,

Speculating that someone is running a scam, IS NOT LIBEL. Get real.
whooo - 22 Aug 2005 18:11 GMT
> Sheesh, whooo,
>
> Speculating that someone is running a scam, IS NOT LIBEL. Get real.

Actually it is.

Scam: an illegal plan for making money.

Libel: a piece of writing which contains bad and false things about a
person.

If Ted is right and it is a scam then he has nothing to worry about if
he puts his real name and his contact details to the accusation he made.

Come on, Ted, time to put-up or shut-the-f-up.
redTed - 22 Aug 2005 18:19 GMT
>> Speculating that someone is running a scam, IS NOT LIBEL. Get real.
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Come on, Ted, time to put-up or shut-the-f-up.

Are you this silly in real life or is it just your online persona ?
whooo - 22 Aug 2005 20:02 GMT
>>>Speculating that someone is running a scam, IS NOT LIBEL. Get real.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Are you this silly in real life or is it just your online persona ?

Don't try and pontificate your way out of it, boy. Just put your real
name to your accusation or withdraw it. Saying stuff like that from
behind a pseudonym just marks you out as a coward who is too scared to
stand by what he says.
redTed - 22 Aug 2005 20:10 GMT
>>>>Speculating that someone is running a scam, IS NOT LIBEL. Get real.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> pseudonym just marks you out as a coward who is too scared to stand by
> what he says.

Unless you are their solicitor I'll refrain from giving someone called
"whooo" and the rest of Usenet my real name, but in the unlikely event your
buddies "the West boys" contact me, I'll gladly provide real details for the
forthcoming libel case.
You do realise you're looking like a real dick here, don't you ?
whooo - 22 Aug 2005 23:39 GMT
>>>>>Speculating that someone is running a scam, IS NOT LIBEL. Get real.
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> forthcoming libel case.
> You do realise you're looking like a real dick here, don't you ?

Why wait for them to contact little you? Just contacted them with your
accusation and details. Don't forget to tell them you libelled then on RAS.
redTed - 22 Aug 2005 23:53 GMT
>> Unless you are their solicitor I'll refrain from giving someone called
>> "whooo" and the rest of Usenet my real name, but in the unlikely event
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> accusation and details. Don't forget to tell them you libelled then on
> RAS.

Even better, why don't I just fine myself a couple of grand and send them
the money ?
Mork calling Orson, come in Orson.
whooo - 23 Aug 2005 00:02 GMT
>>>Unless you are their solicitor I'll refrain from giving someone called
>>>"whooo" and the rest of Usenet my real name, but in the unlikely event
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> the money ?
> Mork calling Orson, come in Orson.

E-mail me your details and I will pass the on.
redTed - 23 Aug 2005 05:43 GMT
>>>>Unless you are their solicitor I'll refrain from giving someone called
>>>>"whooo" and the rest of Usenet my real name, but in the unlikely event
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>>
> E-mail me your details and I will pass the on.

Done. Thanks a lot. I feel so much better now.
Can you take into consideration 3000 other libellous comments I may have
made in the past ? Great. Ill send those details to you later.
I sure hope your hotmail account can handle all the incoming correspondence.
Eeeek.
whooo - 23 Aug 2005 07:11 GMT
>>>>>Unless you are their solicitor I'll refrain from giving someone called
>>>>>"whooo" and the rest of Usenet my real name, but in the unlikely event
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> I sure hope your hotmail account can handle all the incoming correspondence.
> Eeeek.

Unfortunately the account has expired. How about you just post your
details in here? Unless you are scared that the Wests will see your
libel as an easy way to make some cash?
Bruce Kennewell - 23 Aug 2005 03:44 GMT
Ahem. Do I detect a splash of hypocrisy here, mayhap?
Why don't YOU use your real name in this NG?

Bruce.

> ....Just put your real name to your accusation or withdraw it. Saying
stuff like that from behind a pseudonym just marks you out as a coward who
is too scared to stand by what he says.
whooo - 23 Aug 2005 07:10 GMT
> Ahem. Do I detect a splash of hypocrisy here, mayhap?
> Why don't YOU use your real name in this NG?

I'm not the one making libellous comments. Ted might say that me calling
him a coward is libellous, but a comment is only libel if it's untrue.

> Bruce.
>
>>....Just put your real name to your accusation or withdraw it. Saying
>
> stuff like that from behind a pseudonym just marks you out as a coward who
> is too scared to stand by what he says.
Bruce Kennewell - 23 Aug 2005 09:38 GMT
Sorry for confusing you but I was referring to your use of a disguise.

Irrespective of libellous comments or not, isn't it a tad hypocritical to be
castigating someone else for their anonymity when you are also hiding behind
a mask?

Seems to me that those who live in glass houses, etcetera.

BK

> I'm not the one making libellous comments.
whooo - 23 Aug 2005 11:35 GMT
> Sorry for confusing you but I was referring to your use of a disguise.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Seems to me that those who live in glass houses, etcetera.

I think you are the confused one. The chap made I libellous comment that
he almost certainly wouldn't have made had he been posting from a
position of full accountability.
Bruce Kennewell - 23 Aug 2005 12:06 GMT
Well, seeing as I'm confused, let me ask the simple question that might end
my discombobulation.......
Why do YOU hide behind a nom-de-plume?

Bruce.

> I think you are the confused one.
whooo - 23 Aug 2005 12:26 GMT
> Well, seeing as I'm confused, let me ask the simple question that might end
> my discombobulation.......
> Why do YOU hide behind a nom-de-plume?

Not because I want to libel people and get away with it. Some people
wear hoods so they can get away with committing crime. I wear a hood to
keep my head warm. There's nothing wrong with wearing a hood to keep the
old head warm, is there?

Let Ted come forward, like a man, make his allegation and let the West
boys decide how to proceed, I say. What's wrong with that suggestion?

Well, according to you, the problem with that suggestion is that I don't
post under my real name!
Goy Larsen - 23 Aug 2005 14:09 GMT
> Not because I want to libel people and get away with it. Some people
> wear hoods so they can get away with committing crime. I wear a hood to
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Well, according to you, the problem with that suggestion is that I don't
> post under my real name!

Are you seriously suggesting that he posts his personal information to a
NG, especially after he offered to send it to your mail addy if you
provided a working one ?

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
"goyl at nettx dot no"

"When two or more people are gathered together in my name,
they shall perform the Parrot Sketch..."

--Our Lord John Cleese--
whooo - 23 Aug 2005 14:55 GMT
>>Not because I want to libel people and get away with it. Some people
>>wear hoods so they can get away with committing crime. I wear a hood to
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> NG, especially after he offered to send it to your mail addy if you
> provided a working one ?

Yes, or withdraw his accusation.
Steve Whitty - 23 Aug 2005 15:25 GMT
snipped

> Yes, or withdraw his accusation.

ok, let me get this all straight.  some one correct me if I'm wrong.

whooo  wants redTed to contact west bros about his libel comments with his
real name etc, or put it all here in the ng under real name and email addy.

 redTed refuses. not putting his private info in a public ng.

whooo says he'll pass the info on if redTed sends him an email.

redTed sends email.  its an expired account.

as whooo doesn't provide a functional email addy so that redTed can pass the
info on privately, whooo expects redTed to put this info in a public ng.

also

whooo accuses redTed of hiding behind a pseudonym
ummm   pot.....kettle....black

<shakes head, makes a coffee, goes back to a real life>
:)

cheers

steve
whooo - 23 Aug 2005 15:47 GMT
> snipped
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> whooo accuses redTed of hiding behind a pseudonym
> ummm   pot.....kettle....black

But I'm not libelling people, am I. Do you think it shows good form to
libel people from behind a pseudonym?
Steve Whitty - 23 Aug 2005 16:01 GMT
>> snipped
>>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> But I'm not libelling people, am I. Do you think it shows good form to
> libel people from behind a pseudonym?

I just find it hypocritical (Bruce is that spelt right :) ? ) of accusing
someone of hiding behind a pseudonym.  Irrespective if you are libelling
someone or not, you are  posting behind a fictional name.  Therefore, you
lack credibility in your arguement.

don't ya just love a good debate:)

bedtime in my part of the world.  will catch up with all this later. :)

cheers

steve
whooo - 23 Aug 2005 16:02 GMT
>>>snipped
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> someone or not, you are  posting behind a fictional name.  Therefore, you
> lack credibility in your arguement.

The question is: is it honourable to made libellous comments about
people from behind a pseudonym?
mcewena - 23 Aug 2005 18:19 GMT
>ok, let me get this all straight.  some one correct me if I'm wrong.

yep I think you're pretty close.

And surprisingly other posts are lementing the loss of inteligent
discourse on r.a.s. lately,  I guess they're not counting
"did-so/did-not" as debating. ;)
Goy Larsen - 23 Aug 2005 18:06 GMT
> > Are you seriously suggesting that he posts his personal information to a
> > NG, especially after he offered to send it to your mail addy if you
> > provided a working one ?
> >
> Yes, or withdraw his accusation.

Just checking, well, he already tried to send you his info, your e-mail
isn't working, I'd say it's up to you to provide him a means to send you
his info, I'd never post my personal info in public because someone
hiding behind an anonymous name demanded that I did

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
"goyl at nettx dot no"

"When two or more people are gathered together in my name,
they shall perform the Parrot Sketch..."

--Our Lord John Cleese--
whooo - 23 Aug 2005 20:03 GMT
>>>Are you seriously suggesting that he posts his personal information to a
>>>NG, especially after he offered to send it to your mail addy if you
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> his info, I'd never post my personal info in public because someone
> hiding behind an anonymous name demanded that I did

would you libel someone?
Goy Larsen - 23 Aug 2005 20:51 GMT
> >>>Are you seriously suggesting that he posts his personal information to a
> >>>NG, especially after he offered to send it to your mail addy if you
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> would you libel someone?

Does defamation of character count ?

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
"goyl at nettx dot no"

"When two or more people are gathered together in my name,
they shall perform the Parrot Sketch..."

--Our Lord John Cleese--
todd_wasson@performancesimulations.com - 23 Aug 2005 21:01 GMT
You are saying my friends are full of hot air?

Uh oh...  I'm about to have a moment...  Must... resist......

GAH!!  I can't help myself!

Do you know what time it is?

It's story time, boys and girls!!

"Weeee!  A story!"

Billy-Blu-Bob lived in a beautiful neighborhood in Lawnville, USA.
Everyone mowed their lawn twice per week.  People tried all sorts of
different things to make their lawn the most beautiful lawn in
Lawnville.

One day, Joe-Red-Bob (Billy-Blu-Bob's cousin) asked his
wife,"Rickie-Red-Bob, would it be ok if I cut the lawn shorter?  I
think that might be more beautiful than Billy-Blu-Bob's lawn!"

Rickie-Red-Bob replied, "Sure Joe-Red-Bob, that'd be fine with me!
You're so smart!  I bet that would make our lawn the most beautiful
lawn in all of Lawnville!"

With Rickie-Red-Bob's blessing, Joe-Red-Bob lowered his mower from the
1-1/2" cutting height everyone else in Lawnville used to only 1" and
mowed his whole lawn.  It was more work because the lawn was being cut
much shorter than anyone else's lawn in Lawnville, but Joe-Red-Bob and
Rickie-Red-Bob knew it was worth it.  And sure enough, after he
finished his hard work, everyone in Lawnville agreed that Joe-Red-Bob
had the most beautiful lawn in Lawnville!

Now, the people in Lawnville were very smart people.  Joe-Red-Bob was
smart.  But Billy-Blu-Bob's brains brittled and bounced with brand new
ideas.

Billy-Blu-Bob asked his wife, a (big boobed blonde babe), "Hey
Brandie-Blu-Bob, how would you like me to cut our lawn even shorter?
I'll cut it to 3/4" height.  That will be 25% more work, but
Brandie-Blue-Bob, it will be worth it!  We'll have the most beautiful
lawn in Lawnville!"

Brandie-Blu-Bob replied, "Sure Billy-Blu-Bob!!"

Billy-Blu-Bob got to mowing.  When he was finished, everyone agreed
that Billy-Blu-Bob had the most beautiful lawn in Lawnville!

Now, up the street was a feller by the name of Timmy.  Timmy didn't
really fit in.  His name was wierd and he was a cartoon character from
SouthPark, which wasn't anywhere near Lawnville.  But, he was sure a
smart feller!  He had been watching what was going on and loved his
lawn even more than anybody in Lawnville loved their own.

One sunny day, he went to his wife and announced,"Tammy, I know what's
going on.  The shorter the grass is, the more beautiful the lawn!  I'm
going to build a special lawn mower that will cut the grass to only
1/4" height!  Then, our lawn will be the most beautiful lawn in
Lawnville for a very long time!  Why, their lawn mowers can't even cut
the grass that short!"

Tammy said, "Timmy!  That's a great idea!  But you've never built a
lawn mower before!  Nobody in Lawnville has ever built their own
lawnmower before!  Only the people in Capitol Riches and Tunza
Resources have ever built their own lawnmowers!"

"Don't worry Tammy, I can do it!" exclaimed Timmy.

Sure enough, Timmy built the lawn mower and started mowing.  He had a
very big lawn to mow for a little guy in a wheelchair, but he kept at
it, refusing to give up.  Surprisingly, he mowed just as fast as the
guys in Capitol Riches and Tunza Resources!

After he had half the lawn mowed, a neighbor stopped by and could not
believe what he was seeing.  The grass was so short!  It was impossible
to make grass that short!  There wasn't a lawnmower in the whole world
that could do it!  And it was so much more beautiful than any lawn he
had ever seen!  The neighbor told some other neighbors.  Timmy told
some others.  Before long, Timmy's lawn was the talk of Lawnville.

"It's beautiful!"

"I've never seen anything like it!"

"This is going to be the most beautiful lawn in Lawnville!"

"How did you do it?"

"When will you be finished?"

"What's it going to feel like to walk on that very short grass?"

Timmy told them how he was doing it.  He told them how he built his own
lawnmower. He told them how the lawnmower worked, what it was built
from, how it was constructed, how the special blades worked.  He told
them all about it!  Anyone who asked him a question got an answer.
This was very unusual for such a breakthrough in lawncare technology.
Nobody that built lawnmowers in Capitol Riches and Tunza Resources ever
talked about how their lawnmowers worked with anybody.  Tammy knew
this.  And it was beginning to make her nervous.

Even the folks at the Lawnville radio station, K-GRAS, interviewed him.
He was in the magazines and newspapers (they write very fast in
Lawnville).  People on the internet talked about it after seeing
pictures and movies of the finished parts of his new lawn.

But after some time, some of the neighbors became impatient.  They
never actually watched a giant lawn the size of Timmy and Tammy's giant
lawn get mowed on a daily basis.  They normally would drive out to the
rich parts of Lawnville and see the really big lawns when they were
finished.

"Come on, how long does it take to mow your lawn?  With that special
mower it should be done by now!"

Later still, while Timmy was still mowing along, wishing he had thirty
or fourty people helping him like the other people with really big
lawns in Lawnville had, Tammy took him aside and confided in him.

"Timmy, I don't feel comfortable with you talking to all of these
people.  You're telling them everything.  Nobody else in Lawnville, and
especially Capitol Riches or Tunza Resources does this.  We didn't do
this in SouthPark either.  You're even telling them how your lawn mower
works and how you built it.  What if somebody in Capitol Riches or
Tunza Resources catches on, builds a mower like yours, and mows a lawn
as beautiful as the one you're making?  Please Timmy, stop telling
everyone what you're up to.  Stop sending people pictures all the time,
doing interviews, and all of this stuff.  Wait until you're almost
finished and then I will tell them about it for you, ok?  Trust me, I
know how to handle these things better than you."

Timmy begrudingly obeyed Tammy and stopped talking to the neighbors
about his lawn.

Some time later, after noticing that Timmy never popped his head over
the back yard fence any more (the front yard was finished, anyone who
bothered to walk by could see the beautiful lawn), they began wondering
where he was.  They wrote Timmy letters and called him.  But he obeyed
Tammy's wishes and ignored them.  It tore his heart out, but he had no
choice.

Before long, people became impatient.  Then angry.  Then downright
hostile.  Had Timmy led them along and pulled some sort of prank?
Where in the world was he?  Why wasn't he talking to anyone anymore?

People began to think he had disappeared.  They couldn't see over his
backyard fence to see him mowing, and Tammy wouldn't let him out until
it was done.

The began to think it would never be finished.

"It'll never be finished!"

"You'll never finish!"

"Are you going to finish?"

Timmy didn't care what they said, he just wanted to have the most
beautiful lawn in Lawnville, so he kept right on mowing his backyard
behind the fence.  It was just a matter of time now.  The mower worked
great and he knew how to use it.  If people snuck through his back gate
and asked how he built his lawn mower or wanted to see pictures of the
finished parts of his back lawn, he would still happily show them, but
not to the mean ones because they made Timmy sad.  And when Timmy was
sad it wasn't as fun to mow his lawn.  It was bad enough that Tammy
wouldn't let him talk to the people of LawnVille anymore until he was
done.

Outside the fence, angry mobs gathered.

"You're going too slow!!"

"Hurry up!"

"I want to see your lawn!"

"Can I try walking on your lawn before you're done mowing it?"

(To avoid attracting attention from Tammy, Timmy said quietly, "No, you
can walk on it when it's finished.")

"But it'll never be finished!"

Timmy rolled his eyes.  He was sure it would.  It was almost done.  The
mower worked beautifully.  He was a little confused though why these
very same people who had seen movies of the mower and lawn working were
doubting that the lawn mower even existed, but nevermind.  He had a job
to do.

"Timmy, you're full of hot air!!" screamed Joe-Red-Bob.

"Timmy is full of hot air!!" screamed Joe-Red-Bob.

Then, something terrible happened.

The sky got dark.  Creepy black clouds rolled in, blocking the sun.
Thunder boomed in the distance.  It could only mean one thing.  Timmy
turned his head slowly towards the house, fearing the worst.

"Timmy!!!" shouted Tammy, bursting frantically through the side door.

"I've changed my mind!  I don't want you to mow the lawn that short
with your special mower!  It's too unlike the other lawns in Lawnville!
It's beautiful, yes, but that short grass will prickle and tickle your
feet and get dirt between the Lawnville kids' toes!  My sister is here
and she thinks the same thing!"

"But Tammy!!" cried Timmy, "You said I could do it!  You promised it
was okay and you've supported it all along!"

Off in the distance behind the fence, Joe Red Bob angrily shouted to
the Lawnville Mob, "Timmy is full of hot air!  Just you watch, he won't
finish the lawn.  Mark my words!"

Tammy, who didn't hear Joe Red Bob, shook her head and admitted, "I
just walked on the other side that you've finished. The grass is too
short.  I know it's more beautiful than any other lawn in Lawnville,
but it's too hard to walk on this very short grass without it tickling
or scratching your feet!  It's uncomfortable.  It's not like the other
lawns."

Timmy was stunned.  He had worked so hard for so long and without any
help like the people of Capitol Riches and Tunza Resources had, and his
lawn was just as big as theirs!  He even built his own lawn mower for
the job.  Was what he was hearing true?

"But Tammy, everybody in Lawnville loves short grass!  I've figured it
out!  The shorter the grass, the more the people in Lawnville love the
lawn!  These people like to have their feet tickled.  They like it when
they itch.  And I've already told everyone I would do it because you
said I could!"

Tammy, shrugging her shoulders, retorted, "I know what I said.  I'm
sorry, but I've been thinking about this a lot and realize that even
though the lawn is the most beautiful lawn in all of Lawnville, our
friends in SouthPark don't like it when their feet are tickled.  Yes, I
know Lawnville people like that, but where we're from people like
longer grass.  There are more people in SouthPark than Lawnville, so
I'm sorry, but my decision is final."

Tammy added, "You can't finish our lawn if you're going to do it this
way.  Stop wasting time right now and let it grow back to the height
everyone else in Lawnville has.  That's the right height for people in
Southpark, where all our friends are."

Tammy, squinting one eye and wagging her finger slowly from side to
side, continued slowly, "And don't you even think about going out and
telling everyone that I'm the one that made you stop.  I'll not have
the neighbors thinking I'm a bad person for changing my mind.  My
sister happens to be right, so just shut up, let it grow long like
everyone else's is, or get out of this house."

A bicycle sped past.  Joe Red Bob, standing on the seat getting a brief
glimpse of the unfinished back yard, snapped a picture and proclaimed
to the mob, "See?  I told all you people!  He's full of hot air!"

>From that day forward, nobody in Lawnville believed a word Timmy said,
except Tammy and the people that visited the back gate without a camera
so as not to get Timmy in trouble with Tammy.  Timmy was determined to
have his beautiful, one of a kind 1/4" lawn though.  He decided not to
sit around and let it grow back, but instead left Tammy.

Tammy wouldn't let Timmy use the mower for a year or two until she
could afford a new one (Timmy's mower could still cut the grass to any
height like any other mower), so Timmy had to build a new mower, find a
new lawn, and start all over.  This time he wouldn't have Tammy around
to stop him or get in the way.  And Timmy had learned so much building
that first mower and mowing most of his lawn in Lawnville with it that
he was sure he could do much better the second time.  But of course,
since Timmy never finished the first lawn, nobody believed him when he
said he was working on a second one.

There were a few that believed him though.  The ones that had been to
his house to walk on the lawn knew it was real , still unlike any other
lawn because the grass in the front was only 1/4" long, and knew how
beautiful it was.  They hung around and Timmy kept them updated.  But
even though he and Tammy had split up he didn't do K-GRAS radio shows
or newspaper interviews or anything public any more.  Joe Red Bob and
his friends believed Timmy was full of hot air, and had convinced most
of the rest of the neighborhood.  Joe Red Bob was a smart guy, but he
enjoyed riding his bike up and down the street shouting and reminding
the people of Lawnville that Timmy's lawn never got finished so much
that he never cared to find out what happened.  He just assumed Timmy
had lied.  Joe Red Bob never thought that Tammy might have been behind
the whole thing all along.

Hmm...  Maybe Joe Red Bob wasn't as smart as he thought he was.

Before too long, some clever investigators in a small magazine checked
into the "Timmy Lawn Scandal," or "TLS" as it became known around
Lawnville.  They wrote an accurate, factual news story about how Tammy
had stopped Timmy from finishing the lawn and forbid him from telling
anyone about it.  Everyone in Lawnville read the story, including Joe
Red Bob, but the people of LawnVille for some reason did not believe
the story was true.

By then, Timmy didn't concern himself with what they thought or said
anymore.  All he wanted was to have his beautiful lawn, built with his
special lawn mower.

THE END :-)

And even a child could understand this :-)   (Hmmm...  Maybe I should
quit my gig and write kiddie books...)

J. Todd Wasson
http://www.PerformanceSimulations.com
http://www.VirtualRC.com
reggie white - 23 Aug 2005 22:22 GMT
> You are saying my friends are full of hot air?
>
[quoted text clipped - 304 lines]
> http://www.PerformanceSimulations.com
> http://www.VirtualRC.com
Remco Moedt - 23 Aug 2005 22:43 GMT
AFAIK Timmy didn't build the lawnmower, he just said he could do it,
and showed some drawings.... :-) He started building it, but every
time when he almost was finished, he decided to rebuild it to cut the
grass even shorter....

Cheers!

Remco
todd_wasson@performancesimulations.com - 23 Aug 2005 23:19 GMT
Please tell me you're joking, Remco.
Remco Moedt - 24 Aug 2005 12:56 GMT
>Please tell me you're joking, Remco.

Well, I don't know Timmy as well as you do, but that's all I've ever
seen from him....

Cheers!

Remco
George Sandman - 25 Aug 2005 02:20 GMT
> AFAIK Timmy didn't build the lawnmower, he just said he could do it,
> and showed some drawings.... :-) He started building it, but every
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Remco

Hi Remco,

I had the same exact thoughts.  Seems like maybe around the 1/2 inch lengh
lawn is where we were told we would see a Demo after the first of the year.
That is coming up on two years.  hmmm I wonder if they building mowers that
can cut 1/32" lawns yet???  Ya know, by the time we see something the mowers
will be cutting us when we are 6 feet under. ;-)

George
elrikk - 25 Aug 2005 03:39 GMT
>> AFAIK Timmy didn't build the lawnmower, he just said he could do it,
>> and showed some drawings.... :-) He started building it, but every
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> George

I think that the real problem lies in the size of the yard.

Every time Timmy thought he was finished he saw that the part of the yard he
had started with was now to long (for his intended vision) again.   ;o)

Elrikk
redTed - 23 Aug 2005 23:21 GMT
> You are saying my friends are full of hot air?
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>snip<

> THE END :-)

Well it certainly put me to sleep.
Thanks Dad.
todd_wasson@performancesimulations.com - 24 Aug 2005 04:21 GMT
You're welcome, son.  When you're old enough to understand, I'll
explain what it means.
Bruce Kennewell - 24 Aug 2005 09:19 GMT
Good Lord!
Someone has too much spare time on their hands! :)

BK

> It's story time, boys and girls!!...........  SNIP! (Major surgery
undertaken to delete the rest of the saga!)
Woodie83 - 24 Aug 2005 12:32 GMT
> It's story time, boys and girls!!
>
> "Weeee!  A story!"

I thought it was a lovely story,
And you told it so well,
With such enthusiasm!

Tho old lady on the bench in Forest Gump
Dean Purdy - 24 Aug 2005 13:34 GMT
Well put J. Todd. BTW, I thoroughly enjoy Virtual RC Racing, please be sure
to thank Tony for me, okay? <wink, wink>

Signature

                                  See ya in the pits,
                                          Dean

I have a terrible memory. In fact my memory's so bad I can't remember how
long it's been since I've forgotten anything.

> You are saying my friends are full of hot air?
>
[quoted text clipped - 304 lines]
> http://www.PerformanceSimulations.com
> http://www.VirtualRC.com
todd_wasson@performancesimulations.com - 25 Aug 2005 01:48 GMT
Thanks, Dean, glad you enjoy Virtual RC Racing.  I'll thank Tony for
you first thing in the morning ;-)

Thanks :-)
Nick - 26 Aug 2005 20:33 GMT
> It's story time, boys and girls!!

<snipped in order to save the internet>

Great story, but did you have the day off?!

I think there's something a bit awry with the story, if I have all my
metaphors mapped out correctly?

Surely, the problem was that when Timmy split with Tammy, Tammy kept
his lawnmower, retrofitted it to only cut to 1", and sold it.

Timmy then began to create his new lawnmower, but he decided that he
would continue to tell everybody what he was doing, posting the
occasional picture of the new lawnmower and bits of test lawn, putting
up notices explaining his progress, even providing an area for
interested folk to gather and discuss Timmy's split with Tammy, and the
new lawn project.

Eventually, Timmy put up a notice explaining that he had developed a
new part for the lawnmower, one which would enable him to cut people's
hair with it(!).  Everybody read this notice and said 'I don't want
short hair, I want a short lawn!'.  Some people said that being able to
cut hair was a worthwhile addition to the lawnmower, although these
people were generally shouted down as the lawnmower was designed to mow
grass, and Timmy could do what he liked to the lawnmower in the future,
but his primary goal should be to concentrate on finishing his lawn.
Some people also pointed out that Timmy should perhaps have spent more
time on the lawn instead of making postcards with pictures of the
lawnmower and selling them.

Just at this moment, when faith in the new lawn project was perhaps
decreasing for the first time since it began, Timmy decided that
instead of putting up a notice explaining that the hair cutting extra
was only added while it was raining (and thus he was unable to cut any
grass due to the inclement weather, so it did not take any time away
from the main lawnmowing job), he would simply cease posting any
notices, pictures or information whatsoever.  Thus people, with no new
information and a track record of failed lawnmowing attempts from
Timmy, decided that maybe Timmy shouldn't really be trusted.  Maybe he
was still mowing the lawn, maybe he had emigrated to St. Lucia.

Nobody knew.

Meanwhile, as other people begin making lawnmowers that are cutting
grass shorter and shorter, it could well be that, if Timmy is still
working on the lawn (and we are told by some members of his family that
he is), then by the time he has finished his 1/4" lawn, somebody else
might have already built a lawnmower that can cut 1/8".  If, however,
Timmy is still hard at work, and he does finish his lawn, and the rest
of the world hasn't overtaken him in lawnmowing technology, then people
will once again be amazed, and will apologise to Timmy for doubting
him, and even pay him lots of money to dance on his new lawn.
mcewena - 26 Aug 2005 21:25 GMT
>Tammy said, "Timmy!  That's a great idea!  But you've >never built a lawn mower before!

I thought a lot of Timmy's friends claimed that Timmy had lots of
experience in the coin operated and early console lawnmower market?
Ashley McConnell - 22 Aug 2005 08:32 GMT
Ted,

What I can't believe is that you are basing this absolute "fact" on an
anonymous poster who has been spreading nonsense and general bile about
R.A.S. for a while now.

I'm all for reasoned argument, especially on usenet, but when you take
an "announcement" such as this at face value without any kind of
questioning it doesn't exactly make your arguments credible.

BTW. Unless they've decided to throw it all in since I talked to him
*yesterday*, this is, of course, nonsense.

All the best,
Ash

--
http://www.siroccoracing.com
Bruce Kennewell - 22 Aug 2005 09:23 GMT
Talked to ..... him?
Shouldn't you be using an uppercase 'H' out of respect? :)

BK

> BTW. Unless they've decided to throw it all in since I talked to him
*yesterday*, this is, of course, nonsense.
redTed - 22 Aug 2005 16:13 GMT
> Ted,
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> All the best,
> Ash

I'm basing it on nearly 5 years of sod all apart from a few decent renders
that any 3D Max amateur could pull off.
It just happened that "reg the veg" rekindled my dislike for being
bullshitted.
So where are "they" up to with the sim of the century, then ? Or is it top
secret bollox ?

All the best

Red
Ashley McConnell - 22 Aug 2005 19:47 GMT
> > Ted,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Red

So after 5 years work (it's been 3 really) they are just going to give
up after selling their house to fund it?

What is it to you if it never comes out?  How have you been harmed?

There are more important things to worry about :)

Ash
redTed - 22 Aug 2005 20:17 GMT
>> I'm basing it on nearly 5 years of sod all apart from a few decent
>> renders
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Ash

I don't care about them, their house or their vapourware. I do care about
the cat, though, and am truly sorry about that.
Seriously, the slagging I took on here over this issue still rankles and I'm
not at all surprised to see that all my original detractors have
mysteriously vanished into cyberspace.
Now I see users who claim they were around in 2001 using different monikers
to hide their embarrassment.
todd_wasson@performancesimulations.com - 23 Aug 2005 17:30 GMT
Racing Legends was cancelled in 2001?
todd_wasson@performancesimulations.com - 24 Aug 2005 04:24 GMT
Again, RedTed..  You said that Racing Legends was cancelled in 2001.
Please respond to my post.  Here it is again:

"Racing Legends was cancelled in 2001?"
redTed - 24 Aug 2005 05:43 GMT
> Again, RedTed..  You said that Racing Legends was cancelled in 2001.
> Please respond to my post.  Here it is again:
>
> "Racing Legends was cancelled in 2001?"

I knew it wasn't going to happen in my gaming lifetime.
And if you have anything at all to do with the so called "project" I can
actually see why it would take forever.
todd_wasson@performancesimulations.com - 24 Aug 2005 18:41 GMT
RedTed, first of all, Racing Legends was not started until 2002.
Second, it is now 2005.  Just how long do you think it should take for
two or three guys, versus fourty or fifty, to write a simulator like
that?

Clever pot shot.  So after a full day's work I spend an hour amusing
myself writing a analogical children's story to try to put the story
into perspective, and your response is that if I have anything to do
with their project you can see why it would take so long?  Your logic
amazes me.  The story still went right over your head, as well as
Remco's, and you didn't quite get or comment on the "hot air" part :-)

Oh well, I had a fun, relaxing hour there in my sillyness, even if it
was just too difficult for you to draw links between the real world and
the story :-)  You obviously know more about the situation than anyone
else does, even those of us that have worked closely with Tony for
quite a long time?
ymenard - 24 Aug 2005 20:12 GMT
><todd_wasson@performancesimulations.com> wrote
> RedTed, first of all, Racing Legends was not started until 2002.
> Second, it is now 2005.  Just how long do you think it should take for
> two or three guys, versus fourty or fifty, to write a simulator like
> that?

Look we've been through this a dozen times here on r.a.s.

Btw, look at all the old farts here in this thread.  <waves> ;)

There are several sims that were made with a very minimal staff, and were
executed in a smaller time frame.  LiveForSpeed, Racer, etc...  But when you
waste your time modeling hyper-accurate version of a friggin truck loader,
of course it will take a decade.

Everybody here knew that they didn't go in the correct directions.  There
was a massive amount of stuff before you even think about doing the things
the West Bros. did.  Sure one of them was very good in 3d modeling and you
know, he had nothing else to do.  Well that just means they weren't
organised correctly.

Signature

-- François Ménard <ymenard>
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Goy Larsen - 24 Aug 2005 20:30 GMT
> Btw, look at all the old farts here in this thread.  <waves> ;)

I believe I'm coming up on my 10 year anniversary this fall, if I had
taken a part time job instead I could have bought my 36ft Grand Banks by
now, oh well

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

"When two or more people are gathered together in my name,
they shall perform the Parrot Sketch..."

--Our Lord John Cleese--
todd_wasson@performancesimulations.com - 25 Aug 2005 03:54 GMT
> ><todd_wasson@performancesimulations.com> wrote
> > RedTed, first of all, Racing Legends was not started until 2002.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Look we've been through this a dozen times here on r.a.s.

I know.  Unfortunately everyone still believes Joe-Red-Bob instead of
the back gaters from Timmy's house and the news crew that thoroughly
investigated all the facts and interviewed everyone involved.  The
currently observed incapability of adults to draw links between a
children's analogical story and real events is a frightening glimpse
into the minds of more than one individual in this discussion.
Insisting the story is less of an accurate reflection of reality than
their own version might be is to put ignorance not only on one's
sleeve, but upon one's entire wardrobe.  I'm not saying you have done
that, but you're smart enough to observe that others in this discussion
clearly have.

Anyone who blames Timmy instead of Tammy for the first lawn not getting
mowed is lacking intellectual resources and possesses an inadequately
developed reasoning faculty for someone of an age of eight years old,
much less an adult.  I don't know any more polite way to say it.

Seriously, read that story to your kids and at the end, ask them why
the first lawn didn't get finished, and why it is probably going to
take a very long time to get the second lawn done as measured from when
the first one was started.  Sadly, I would bet the kids are smarter
than the adults on this one.

Or, just cop out like someone else here did and say the story doesn't
reflect the picture as closely as your version would,  which implies
either that I'm lying, stupid, misinformed and gullible, or that they
have better, more accurate sources of information than I, much less
Ashley McConnell and Gregor Veble, do.  The last option is not likely.
Tony and I have been working together for a year and a half, I've
chatted daily with Chris, Gregor, and Ashley for at least that long,
and had dinner and beer with Chris and Tony.  If I'm not mistaken,
Gregor attended Ashley's wedding, and Ash has spent quite a lot of time
cavorting around with Chris and Tony.  If you think Chris, Tony, and
Gregor are lying to Ashley and he's too dumb to figure it out, please
say so.  I must warn you though, Ash is a pretty big guy :-)

Before forming an opinion about any subject at all in our lives,
whether it's racing simulator development (which you and the
Joe-Red-Bob's of the world don't do for a living, I must point out),
politics, money, or anything else, we should all really consider the
sources of our information, don't you agree?

> Btw, look at all the old farts here in this thread.  <waves> ;)

I agree, it is indeed fun to see some of the old faces around here
again. :-)

> There are several sims that were made with a very minimal staff, and were
> executed in a smaller time frame.  LiveForSpeed, Racer, etc...

Live for Speed is being released in three parts.  It isn't "finished"
by any sense of the word and won't be until S3 is released.  Search RSC
back in the early days of LFS before S1 was released or even conceived
to verify their business concept, as well as how it was developed
(you'll find polls) if you suspect I'm mistaken.  If you're still not
convinced, then note that S1, S2, and S3 are all about, or in S3's
case, will be, 1/3 the typical cost of a sim.

One poll they took was asking the community if they would consider
purchasing the product while it was being developed in fractions, with
equally fractional pricing along the way, to help pay for food and rent
and so on while working towards the end product, which even after at
least two years of working on that demo that popped up out of nowhere,
would still require several more years to create.  I remember when this
was going on and watched eagerly what the community's reaction would
be.  They overwhelmingly said yes.  The LFS crew then took a typical
price and divided it by three, then intended to release it in thirds as
it was being developed.  You need S1, S2, and S3 licenses to have the
full product they were planning.  Had the community said no, they would
most likely have worked straight through S3 and then released it as the
full priced product it will one day be.  In other words, you would not
be able to buy Live For Speed yet because they ain't done!

Bottom line:  They won't be finished with the full priced, completed
product they envisioned and originally set out to make until after S3
is released.  LFS is NOT finished.  You aren't paying $60 for it.
You're paying 2/3 the price of the full, completed, final Live For
Speed version 1.0.

What year did they start?  If I'm not mistaken, it was about two years
before RL began, wasn't it?  They still aren't finished and won't be
probably for another year or two.  That'll be something like a six or
seven year development cycle for their final, "full cost" product,
which can then be fairly compared with RL, which is being developed and
is to be released in one step rather than three intermittent steps.  RL
is sitting at about three years development now.  Right on course.
They aren't releasing RL in three one third priced stages like LFS is.
That's all.  Want a demo in the mean time?  Well, a demo is a product
in itself and takes considerable extra time to create.  Rest assured
that LFS S3 would have been released sooner than it will be had they
not done S1 and S2 as separate steps along the way.

Will that be out before RL?  That remains to be seen, but that is the
time to judge who finished their product first.  And don't forget, LFS
has a two year head start.  So if RL is released any earlier than two
years after LFS S3 is released, RL was finished faster!

And if one is to point at WSC as part of their development time and say
these time frames are inaccurate, read the kiddie story again.  Hint:
WSC was lawn #1.  And the bitch took the lawn mower ;-)

Racer:  That's a tough one to guage because it isn't a finished game,
and was never intended to be.  It's an ongoing hobby project that
again, started well before RL did, and it isn't finished either.  So
again, this is a poor comparison.  Ruud has been working on other
things that have sprung from Racer for several years now.

I'd also like to point out that Chris West and Gregor Veble had a
TREMENDOUS influence on some of these sims you're talking about, such
as Racer, Netkar, and the full-sized hobby project I had going before I
got into Virtual RC Racing.  We all used to send emails back and forth
about how to model certain things, and in the "old days of RAS" we held
many of those discussions right here at r.a.s..  I think you were
around then, Francois, so probably remember.  That was back when there
were 11,000 posts a month.  And none of them were as rude, insulting,
or ignorant as many of the posts in this thread have been.  There were
plenty of devs involved in those discussions.  Ranging from Chris West
himself to Gregor, Ashley, Ruud van Gaal of Racer, Petri Blomquist (who
showed me how to calculate rigid body rotation from angular momentum
vectors properly), Dave Pollatsek (Viper Racing and possibly others),
Doug Milliken ("Race Car Vehicle Dynamics"), Matt Jessick (Championship
Burnout, IHRA Drag Racing, and a couple other titles), Stefano
(NetKar), Sebastien Tixier (the VRally and possibly some other games),
and several others that I don't remember off the top of my head.

In a sense, we all taught each other how to develop sims, and many of
us still communicate.  Anyway, that's a bit of a tangent...

Any other titles to compare?

Let's take my own and Tony's:

Virtual RC Racing...  How long did it take to develop?  The information
is out there, so let's test your resourcefulness in this area right now
and see if you can find the correct information and pass it along to
me.  This may be an eye opener for you.

NetKar:  Great product.  Again, NetKar started before RL did.  Is it
for sale yet?  I know, I know, there's a demo.  Well, if somebody wants
to skip the extra time consuming step of producing a demo and instead
wants to go straight to the end product and make a demo at or after
that time instead, they are indeed speeding up their development,
aren't they?  To me that doesn't seem to be a dumb move at all.  The
end product will be released faster without a "half way point demo."
Period.  Don't even argue with me on that one, ok? :-D

But when you
> waste your time modeling hyper-accurate version of a friggin truck loader,
> of course it will take a decade.

How long did it take to model the truck loader?  And how much did that
slow down the development of RL?

<I am smiling BIG while awaiting this answer! :-D>

> Everybody here knew that they didn't go in the correct directions.  There
> was a massive amount of stuff before you even think about doing the things
> the West Bros. did.

Can you elaborate?  I'm not sure I follow you there, Francois.

Sure one of them was very good in 3d modeling and you
> know, he had nothing else to do.  Well that just means they weren't
> organised correctly.

Let's see, you have two guys and two tasks that need to be done:

Tasks:
1.  Programming
2.  Art/3D modelling

Personell:
1.  Programmer
2.  Artist

Now, unless I'm mistaken, the organizational decision that is being
pursued is to have the programmer do the programming and the artist do
the Art/3D modelling.

That was bad organization?  How would you have done it differently?

One of those two things will require more time than the other will.
That means there is some left over time for one of the people to do
other things, such as a transporter (again, how long did that take to
where we're still hearing about it a couple years later?), twenty three
tracks and probably fifteen or twenty cars for Virtual RC Racing plus
tons of other promotional stuff you'll never see, that sort of thing.
Do you or anyone else who still beleaguers the transporter issue a
couple of years after the fact do any of this work yourself?  If not,
why do you believe you know more about how long the two tasks take than
the three developers in this discussion?

The fact of the matter is you have no f**king clue what you're talking
about.  Get over yourself and leave them alone.

Yours truly,
Todd Wasson
http://www.VirtualRC.com
http://www.PerformanceSimulations.com
ymenard - 25 Aug 2005 06:16 GMT
><todd_wasson@performancesimulations.com> wrote
> Live for Speed is being released in three parts.  It isn't "finished"
> by any sense of the word and won't be until S3 is released.

The Live for Speed crew understood that you don't need to develop first some
hyper-accurate portion of the sim to get the attention of the market you
want to reach.  And brag about it.  They started very crude, and now look
how far they have gone without alienating their core base about the time it
truly takes to develop a sim.  And like you wrote, they understood that
having a sorta independant release in the simracing community, you had to do
it differently but also still *respect* the customer.

Look, nobody here really think it takes 6 months to fiinish a quality
product.  We all know the time it takes, how consuming the task is.  Nobody
is pointing fingers at them going "Haha you are taking your time".  We're
shouting vapourware because they bragged long, long before it was even
necessary, about things that were just the wrong ones.

> In other words, you would not
> be able to buy Live For Speed yet because they ain't done!

They wouldn't be bragging us with teddy bears, leather wallets and rendered
shots of things that we clearly don't think are that much important ;)  With
the West Brothers, we all, each and every one of us, called "SHENANIGAN!!!"
at one point or another.  And we're forgiving them for the whole WSC fiasco.

That's the difference, somehow.  Nice info btw.  Btw I still respect the
West bros. for having the guts to do such thing.  I respect their love for
racing, and heck we all here share it, especially their attachment to the
historical values of racing series of the past.  For me it was all
vapourware anyway until I put my hands on my wheels and it would do
something on the screen.

> How long did it take to model the truck loader?  And how much did that
> slow down the development of RL?
>
> <I am smiling BIG while awaiting this answer! :-D>

No that's not it.  You know if X feature is made before Y, and one way or
another it'll take the same development time, nobody cares.  But you don't
go bragging to the community about the marvellous 3d renders you have, and
talk about various pricing schemes, when you know it's years ahead of a
remotely good product.  They did that with WSC also.

> The fact of the matter is you have no f**king clue what you're talking
> about.  Get over yourself and leave them alone.

They should have left us alone a long time ago.  And start braging when you
know... it's time to do it.

Signature

-- François Ménard <ymenard>
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Bruce Kennewell - 25 Aug 2005 06:47 GMT
Todd, I think that your allegorical story failed to capture the intended
audience for the simple fact that it was too long.
Parables, analogies and allegories need to be short, sharp and snappy in
order to get the message across.
Your effort would have put an audience of taxation consultants to sleep in
quick time, and apparently that takes some doing.

Bruce.

> The currently observed incapability of adults to draw links between a
> children's analogical story and real events is a frightening glimpse
> into the minds of more than one individual in this discussion.
todd_wasson@performancesimulations.com - 25 Aug 2005 08:49 GMT
Thank you, Bruce.  You are absolutely right.  The story would make a
good bedtime tale though.  Get those kids to sleep mighty quick I
imagine :-D
redTed - 24 Aug 2005 20:48 GMT
> RedTed, first of all, Racing Legends was not started until 2002.
> Second, it is now 2005.  Just how long do you think it should take for
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> else does, even those of us that have worked closely with Tony for
> quite a long time?

I've got to be honest, I never read your elaborate tale. It was far too
boring after the first 5 words.
Sorry.
I think if you ever do change professions , it would be wise to put some
kind of health warning on the covers of your books.
Something along the lines of...*DANGER:COMA INDUCING CLAPTRAP AHEAD*
todd_wasson@performancesimulations.com - 25 Aug 2005 03:56 GMT
Hahaha, ok, now that WAS funny :-)  Kudos on that one ;-)
Remco Moedt - 24 Aug 2005 21:10 GMT
>The story still went right over your head, as well as
>Remco's,

Since I'm always willing to learn, I wouldn't mind an explanation....
:-)

Cheers!

Remco
Peter - 25 Aug 2005 00:32 GMT
> >The story still went right over your head, as well as
> >Remco's,
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Remco

I think the analogy also included when they worked for that software
developer (can't recall whom), created a lot of code which was used by
said software company, but then had to start from scratch because
legally they weren't allowed to take any of the code with them.  Hence
why there was a 1/4" mower and some lawn mowing going on.

.
.
.
.
.
.

Then again, who gives a sh.t.  ;-)

Signature

Pete Ives
Remove All_stRESS before sending me an email

Remco Moedt - 26 Aug 2005 22:13 GMT
>> >The story still went right over your head, as well as
>> >Remco's,
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>legally they weren't allowed to take any of the code with them.  Hence
>why there was a 1/4" mower and some lawn mowing going on.

Ah, ok. My twist was more directed to the rewrite of the graphics
engine for WSC, directx7, 8, 9....

>Then again, who gives a sh.t.  ;-)

Right you are...it will be nice if we'll see a product of the West
Bros in the future. If not, we'll play another game...

Cheers!

Remco
elrikk - 25 Aug 2005 01:07 GMT
> RedTed, first of all, Racing Legends was not started until 2002.
> Second, it is now 2005.  Just how long do you think it should take for
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> else does, even those of us that have worked closely with Tony for
> quite a long time?

Don't know about the others but I quite enjoyed it.

Elrikk
Mauro Licciardello - 21 Aug 2005 15:09 GMT
> The West Brothers have announced what most of us already knew. Racing
> Legends is officially cancelled.

Source? Don't tell me the Lotus transporter driver.

Signature

Mauro Licciardello

Darus - 21 Aug 2005 16:44 GMT
A message from the afterlife from their cat?
Bob Simpson - 21 Aug 2005 19:02 GMT
With no link and a search showing no such announcement, this is
obviously a vapour hoax about probable vapourware.

As is the case with most hoaxes, it's quite believable, though.
Timmy Ferrell - 21 Aug 2005 22:08 GMT
> The West Brothers have announced what most of us already knew. Racing
> Legends is officially cancelled.
What are we going to do next April 1st???
   Oh wait, I know....the next patch for EA Nascar Sim Racing!!!

Timmy
Larry Lindstrom - 21 Aug 2005 22:41 GMT
> The West Brothers have announced what most of us already knew. Racing
> Legends is officially cancelled.

Hi Reggie:

   Where did you see this?  I saw nothing on their site.
Nothing new anyway.  It's still the race transporter
page they had up a year and a half ago.

   It's sad, if true.  I have no reason to doubt their
sincerity.  What would be the point?  But I can't
understand why a modest interim product couldn't be
released, to give them some capital and us something to
look at.

   I have a feeling that only now, with multiple dual
core Opterons, would we start to have the compute power
needed to realize their ambitious vision.

                                                  Larry
redTed - 21 Aug 2005 23:18 GMT
> Hi Reggie:
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>                                                   Larry

Shouldn't this be in the "Just for laffs ;-)" thread ?
todd_wasson@performancesimulations.com - 24 Aug 2005 18:45 GMT
Larry,

Releasing an interim product means essentially creating a new one.  It
takes considerable time to "stop where you are" and make a releasable
interim project.  It would only delay the final thing.  No point in
messing around with that sort of thing.  It's only been three years
since the start of RL.  It takes a lot longer than that for a team of
two or three guys to produce a game with the quality and content of
other sims on the market.  Just scroll through the credits of your
other sims and see how many people were involved.  And yet in those
cases it still usually takes a year or two, and that's usually AFTER
they've released a previous title and have a ready made engine on their
hands.

Chris and Tony are right on track in my eyes.  It's astonishing how
many players in the community insist they know more about sim
development than the developers themselves do! :-D
Larry Lindstrom - 24 Aug 2005 22:37 GMT
> Larry,
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> many players in the community insist they know more about sim
> development than the developers themselves do! :-D

Thanks Todd:

   I know the feeling.

   I'm a Unix programmer working on my second Windows
project.  I was thinking 6 months, but it's grown to
100 thousand lines, twice as large as any project I've
done before, and will have consumed two years of my
life before it's finished.

   Like the Wests, nobody is paying me until it's
done.

   I can see how they want to avoid all the bitching
that goes on here, but a few crumbs of news would be
appreciated by those who aren't throwing stones.

                                               Larry
Bruce Kennewell - 22 Aug 2005 04:51 GMT
Don't tell me...........they couldn't get a replacement for the bloody cat?

BK

> The West Brothers have announced what most of us already knew. Racing
> Legends is officially cancelled.
flightlessvacuum@gmail.com - 22 Aug 2005 06:25 GMT
reggie you are insanely badass.
Mitch_A - 22 Aug 2005 06:40 GMT
Figures..  I knew I never liked you, this cements it.   Must you use an
alter ego to give yourself a compliment?

Now that I think about some of your previous nonsense Id bet
Fredrickson/Reggie/Flightless are the same fool, or a Kindergarden class
sneaking access through their teachers pc.

> reggie you are insanely badass.
Gregor Veble - 22 Aug 2005 08:36 GMT
No ;)

> The West Brothers have announced what most of us already knew. Racing
> Legends is officially cancelled.
Ashley McConnell - 22 Aug 2005 09:02 GMT
Me not waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaant! :D

I thought for a minute Gregor you had given up to persue your one true
love.

Goat Herding :D

Ash
Gregor Veble - 22 Aug 2005 21:34 GMT
Ssssshhh... speak not of them goats, must everyone know?

> Goat Herding :D
>
> Ash
Ashley McConnell - 22 Aug 2005 09:03 GMT
Phew, I thought you had taken up your one true calling... Goat herding
:D
Ashley McConnell - 22 Aug 2005 09:04 GMT
Bugger, thought my newsreader wasn't posting, oh well :)
todd_wasson@performancesimulations.com - 22 Aug 2005 11:21 GMT