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Game Forum / Simulators / Car Simulators / July 2005NR2003 entry fee $100. How many new guys pay it?
I have both NR2003 and NASCAR Simracing. I am what might be called a casual player. I have not raced for a while and have been thinking about getting back into it so I have been poking around the various web sites to see what files, mods, updates and such I need to be up-to-date. While poking around I was VERY suprised to see an almost total absence of anything to do with NASCAR Simracing. I knew the game was something of a dissapointment when released and the "Official Sim" remained NR2003 but I had figured that NSR would still have a following if only because NSR was easily available while NR2003 was scarce. It is obvious that I figured wrong. That got me thinking. With the price of even a VERY used and beat-up copy of NR2003 approaching $100 it seems to me that new guys willing to pay that just to try online racing will be few and far between. If true this cannot be good. > I have both NR2003 and NASCAR Simracing. I am what might be called a casual > player. I have not raced for a while and have been thinking about getting [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > $100 it seems to me that new guys willing to pay that just to try online > racing will be few and far between. If true this cannot be good. Here in Italy I found NR2003 inserted in a game magazine several months ago, for a very low price. At present, I don't know if it is really available, but here it is listed for much less than $ 100: http://www.dvdboxoffice.com/ Regards, Socius Nice price considering the market. Shows that hunting the net can sometimes pay off. But since finding such a price for NR2003 requires a hunt while NSR can be picked up pretty much anywhere for $30 or less still leaves the NR2003 community at a BIG disadvantage in recruiting new members. > Here in Italy I found NR2003 inserted in a game magazine several months > ago, for a very low price. At present, I don't know if it is really [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Socius There's a reason you can get a "new release" for $30 (and many places are lower than that) and NR2003 continues to command top dollar. NSR is a joke and the alleged parade of patches that they promised has fallen thru and left the users who dropped $50 (like myself) on that turd by the wayside. I GLADLY just paid $52 for a used copy of NR2003 off Ebay and thought I got a deal. I see plenty of $75+ auctions going on, but have to wonder how many ppl. are really buying at those prices.... NR2003 has a solid base of users and until "someone" else can develop a stock car sim that compares, NR2003 will be on many hard drives. As for recruiting new members at those prices, you may be right. I suspect anyone who was interested jumped on board when it came out and in the following year or so before Papy announced the end of the series. I'm glad I decided to hold off on NSR...looks like it was a disaster. I almost got taken in by the pre-release hype but then I remembered who was making it... > There's a reason you can get a "new release" for $30 (and many places > are lower than that) and NR2003 continues to command top dollar. NSR is [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > anyone who was interested jumped on board when it came out and in the > following year or so before Papy announced the end of the series. How much money did users drop on such "turds" as NR2002, NR4, etc along the years-long rocky road that ended with NR2003? While NR2003 may be way ahead of NSR Papy's lead shrinks when NSR is stacked up against earlier Papy releases such as NR2002, NASCAR4, etc. Each of these had the advantage of being the best available at the time but each of these still had glaring faults that propted shrill condemnations that sound remarkably like those now heaped upon NSR. The seeming eternal wait for EA's promised "parade of patches" does not mean another patch is not on the way any more than did the equally eternal wait for a patch from Papy. The appearent impossibility of getting any word at all from EA about future patches (if any) is remarkably similar to the stony silence that was Papy's non-reply to the pleadings of its fans. Both Papy then and EA now seem content to ignore fans and let them stew in their own jucies wondering if/when a future patch will fix one or another glaring fault (remember wall-riding?). Assuming that the one patch EA did release is the only patch and such things as are still broken will remain broken until "NSR2" hits the market; will this not also equal Papy's practice of one-patch-per-game? The current running joke in NSR forums that "EA will be realeasing the next patch as NSR2 and will sell for $39.95" originated in the Papy forums but with "Papy" in place of "EA". Goggle reviews of NR2003, NR2002, NR4, etc and count the number of comments along the lines of "In the new version Papy FINALLY fixed "this" long standing fault but "that other trouble" still plagues the sim." Are there any here who doubt that Papy *could* have patched NR2002 to equal NR2003? Did Papy "screw" us when they chose to call the NR2002 patch NR2003 and sell us the patch for $49.95. Shoving the "screw" a little deeper into the fans, what possible reason did Papy have for "screwing" us out of NR2002's Darrell Waltrip narrated "Track Tours"? The Papy fanbois took the elimination of the Track Tours as an opportunity to puff themselves up and present themselves as NASCAR GODS who's exalted expertise rendered the Waltrip tours an insult to their knowledge and skill but I somehow think Papy had a different motive for eliminating the Waltrip tours than worshipful deference to the over-inflated egos of this self-proclaimed pantheon. While all of this is little help to the current incarnation of NSR it does lend some reason for hope that NSR has a future.Whatever NSR's current shortcomings there are few who would deny that the current code is a potential Papy beater. There is no need for EA to start from scratch, they need only make improvements on the code they have.The fact that NR2003 is selling for so much should be a clue to EA that there are a lot of folks willing to throw a lot of money at them if the needed improvements are made. I find it hard to believe that EA paid NASCAR all that money for the name only to let NSR die after one version and one patch. It may well be that NSR will never equal NR2003 and that NR2003 will become the next "Grand Prix Legends" as the best available year after year after year but I think it is a little too early to place any bets. > There's a reason you can get a "new release" for $30 (and many places > are lower than that) and NR2003 continues to command top dollar. NSR is [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > anyone who was interested jumped on board when it came out and in the > following year or so before Papy announced the end of the series. Joe: You make some valid points. NR2003 is/was a pretty polished product when released and it was the result of the evolution of the sim from N1 thru NR2002. However, MY biggest gripe with NSR is the fact that they bought the EXCLUSIVE license for NASCAR, put Papy out of the stock car sim business, and then announced plans to release a "true to life" stock car sim. (I now read from the rear of the box of NSR) Phrases like "realistic physics model", "true to life feeling", "definitive racing experience" and the mother of all lies "ALL NEW GAME ENGINE". I don't know if you bought NSR, but I did and I can't seem find any of those things. The locked/unlocked rear diff issue is a blunder that CAN be fixed, but prevents online gaming with a mismatch error. The text files are littered with references to Thunder 04 and 03 and IIRC, F1C. Multiplayer...well let's not go there. One of the devs of NSR did a Q&A at OLR I think and said that beta testers were using a game that was numerous versions past the retail one. WTF is that? Well, where is the updated code!?!?!?!? Look at it this way, NSR SHOULD have started at the level that Papy ended at. EA had the chance to see the progression of the NRxxxx series and learn what worked and what didn't. They should have then incorporated all the good things and then added to it. Instead it was 1 step forward (by Papy) and 2 steps back (NSR). > I don't know if you bought NSR, but I did and I can't seem find any of > those things. The locked/unlocked rear diff issue is a blunder that CAN [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > numerous versions past the retail one. WTF is that? Well, where is the > updated code!?!?!?!? EA, the distributors of GTR, think nothing of flat out lying as they did in various magazines recently with comments like "Flawless multiplay", etc. This is a money making outfit - the product only needs to be good enough to sell, promote and fool the average parent or noob with words like "official" and "simulator". They are a bunch of arseholes, as are most in the racing simulator business atm. I am guessing that you meant NSR, not GTR? My box is clearly marked "10tacle Studios", not EA. However, you are right that they are a money making outfit, but then, what business isn't out to make a buck? Charities? The question is, how much money did they make on this pile of excrement? Figuring the cost of the NASCAR license is pretty steep, how many copies of a game would they have to move? Now, judging by the overall "tone" of most messages posted about NSR, I'd submit that there weren't many after the initial release in Feb.. Of course, they prob. made up for it in console version where the 8 y/o's won't care or notice the difference. On my GTR box it is clearly marked - "Distributed by Electronic Arts". It's all the same arseholes. Nothing wrong with making a buck - unless your doing it by producing garbage and packaging that garbage as something other than garbage. Simbin, EA, 10tacle are a bunch of arseholes taking advantage of a non policed market. The arseholes handling the licensing for Nascar and F1 are exactly the same - no interest in good products, just money. This will continue until someone sticks their boot in their arse and keeps it in their arse until they learn to do as they're told. That's the only way to deal with disobedient little children. >I am guessing that you meant NSR, not GTR? My box is clearly marked > "10tacle Studios", not EA. However, you are right that they are a money [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > made up for it in console version where the 8 y/o's won't care or > notice the difference. I'm not sure where the hate mail for GTR came from, as this WAS a NSR/NR2003 thread, but I have no problem with GTR. What's yours? As for the licensing authorities for F1 and NASCAR not interested in good products, I guess I'll have to step up and let you in on a dirty little secret......come closer.....closer now......a little more......EVERYONE DOES IT!!!!!!!!! If "it" <happens> to be a good product, it's a bonus. What is important is that it SELLS. And EA being a marketing powerhouse, they SELL A LOT OF CRAP. No matter if it cars, VCR's, clothing, rugs, whatever, quality is not the priority any longer, QUANTITY is. If we want to start a "back in MY day, products lasted for 100 years" thread, perhaps there is a "Made in the USA" usenet group out there. The question now returns to the original topic, (sort of): how many copies of NSR did they need to sell to justify more work on it and thus further patches? Judging by how fast the price fell out on NSR at the big name retailers near me, not a whole lot. Therefore, the "entry price" of $50+ for NR2003 IS the price that must be paid to gain entry to the true "King of Ovals". > I'm not sure where the hate mail for GTR came from, as this WAS a > NSR/NR2003 thread, but I have no problem with GTR. What's yours? You must be insane. > As for the licensing authorities for F1 and NASCAR not interested in > good products, I guess I'll have to step up and let you in on a dirty [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > lasted for 100 years" thread, perhaps there is a "Made in the USA" > usenet group out there. Thanks for that utterly worthless, pointless lesson in the obvious. > The question now returns to the original topic, (sort of): how many > copies of NSR did they need to sell to justify more work on it and thus > further patches? Judging by how fast the price fell out on NSR at the > big name retailers near me, not a whole lot. Therefore, the "entry > price" of $50+ for NR2003 IS the price that must be paid to gain entry > to the true "King of Ovals". What crap! They need to make a certain profit to "justify" patching a game to make it work properly do they? What they need buddy, is a huge boot in their arse that continues to boot their arse until - a) it's fixed b) they learn to not release games that need fundamental finishing in the first place. First off, I ain't your "buddy" in any sense. Second, I'd like to thank you for your eloquent reply to the GTR question. Rather than post ANY kind of sensible response about your problems, you accuse of me mental illness. Nope, sorry, wrong there too. Continuing, no, I didn't say they needed to make a profit to offer up a patch, I said that they need to sell product, period. Let's use a simple example (as that is probably one you could handle). If EA produced 100 copies of NSR, but only 20 sold, would it make ANY sense (to a reasonable person, leave yourself out for this one) to patch a product that only 20% of their target audience purchased, regardless of how "Bad" the product has been received by the 20 users? NO, of course not. Finally, it's sad to see that such an intellectual like yourself feels that "arse" kicking is the best way to resolve a computer software/dev problem. Here's an idea: How about I put my size 13 Corcoran II Field Boot so far up your "arse" that you could lick a shine onto the toe? It would accomplish 2 things at once, you'd STFU and I'd have shiny boots! What a deal! Have a pleasant weekend! > First off, I ain't your "buddy" in any sense. Second, I'd like to thank > you for your eloquent reply to the GTR question. Rather than post ANY [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > things at once, you'd STFU and I'd have shiny boots! What a deal! Have > a pleasant weekend! You need to get a bib to catch this stuff b4 it ends up on the net! The words GTR are not in my post. -Larry > I'm not sure where the hate mail for GTR came from, as this WAS a > NSR/NR2003 thread, but I have no problem with GTR. What's yours? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > price" of $50+ for NR2003 IS the price that must be paid to gain entry > to the true "King of Ovals". You're right. You're only post was "I think it's forgotten that Each version of NRx, once patched, had NO SHOWSTOPPERS. You can't say that about any of the EA Games. -Larry" and I still have no idea what you are talking about. Thus my reply from earlier "HUH?" still applies. So now you have TWO posts that make absolutely no sense. In other words, YOU RESPONDED TO THE WRONG PERSON. I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT GTR. -Larry > You're right. You're only post was "I think it's forgotten that Each > version of NRx, once patched, had NO [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > earlier "HUH?" still applies. So now you have TWO posts that make > absolutely no sense. Well, Larry....no as a matter of fact, YOU did. If you take the time to look at the progression of the thread, it's plain for all to see that "Byron Forbes" and I traded numerous posts with some of the content relating to GTR and his "problems" with it. Example: "Byron Forbes Jul 15, 1:19 pm On my GTR box it is clearly marked - "Distributed by Electronic Arts". It's all the same arseholes......." You replied with: "Larry Jul 15, 4:48 pm I think it's forgotten that Each version of NRx, once patched, had NO SHOWSTOPPERS. You can't say that about any of the EA Games. -Larry" Now, I type out a reply to "Byron Forbes". (Bear in mind that in my hatred of all things Microsoft, I don't use OE to read usenet posts, I use Google Groups. It's a little slow, but since I only read R.A.S., it's not a big deal). My reply: "Darus Jul 15, 5:26 pm I'm not sure where the hate mail for GTR came from, as this WAS a NSR/NR2003 thread, but I have no problem with GTR. What's yours?........" I then check for for new messages and see that your message about "SHOWSTOPPERS" and have no idea what you are talking about. I replied with my succinct post of "HUH?". As the thread moves along, I understand that you are referring to a "showstopper" as a <negative> aspect of either NSR or NRxxxx. I take that term to mean the opposite. Simple misunderstanding. Mssr. Forbes and I then traded 3 three more posts and then state that you never referred to GTR in your post. "I" never said that you did. Hopefully you can see that it was not I that erred by replying to the wrong post. Your post ended up in the middle of an exchange with Forbes and I and you ASSUMED that my reply "I'm not sure where the hate mail for GTR came from..." was intended for you. It was not. you're all losers > Well, Larry....no as a matter of fact, YOU did. If you take the time to > look at the progression of the thread, it's plain for all to see that [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > and I and you ASSUMED that my reply "I'm not sure where the hate mail > for GTR came from..." was intended for you. It was not. You're a has been NFLer punk! > you're all losers I was going to post something along those lines, but since RW is dead, I held off. That rings a bell - what from? >I was going to post something along those lines, but since RW is dead, > I held off. EA did not kill Papy, NASCAR did. EA may have bought exclusive license for NASCAR but only because NASCAR decided to *sell* EA exclusive license. EA may have wished Papy gone but it was NASCAR who granted that wish. The balance of your post lists some of the reasons NR2003 is bringing in such high prices while NSR sits in the bargan bin. I have NSR and have seen each of these and more. You have no argument from me on your assessment of NSR. I think we here can all agree that NR2003 is superior to the current NSR. I think we can also agree that NSR would already be a Papy beater if only the darn thing worked like it was supposed to. So the question is, will EA fix the darn code? NASCAR demanded a LOT of money for that exclusive license and EA paid it. I look at what EA did with other licenses they hold for football, baseball, basketball, etc and I cannot believe EA will abandon NSR after only one version and one patch. If I am wrong my copy of NS2003 is right beside my copy of NSR and you will find me online near the end of the pack battling for 18th place while also trying to stay out of the way of the leaders who are about to lap me. (I said I liked racing, I never said I was good at it.(-;) > Joe: > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > incorporated all the good things and then added to it. Instead it was 1 > step forward (by Papy) and 2 steps back (NSR). JOE, JOE, HELLO? Each and every "version" of NR that papy put out the door was specifically eventually patched, most of the patches were for funky systems specs some were for gameplay, however NSR it is the exact opposite. They shipped 'out the door' something that is UTTERLY worthless as not only a sim, but for multiplayer. Papyrus might have gotten off easy, in your mind because the not only built the damn ruler but set the bar higher with every release and or patch, what can EA honeslty bragg about? I know this is what you mean when you post that people popped money out for Papy "turds?" lol I find that very funny. Here's you... "Uhm, UUUUHHHHM , well it is like a great racing game just like and as great as 'Need For Speed' but you go around a circular track..." Zero support. BTW I have tried most driving games, even EA's Bullshit, and on the PC, what you playing, Nintendo? Here's the rest of the sim racing community, "Need For Speed?" That is like saying Mongoose Bicycles (in walmart) are not bad compared to Schwin's at the bicycle shop, for the same dollar price" BOLOGNA!!!!. Joe enlightened us with: > How much money did users drop on such "turds" as NR2002, NR4, etc > along the years-long rocky road that ended with NR2003? [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] >> came out and in the following year or so before Papy announced the >> end of the series. > JOE, JOE, HELLO? Hi > Each and every "version" of NR that papy put out the door was specifically > eventually patched, You are correct. I also said as much with "Papy's practice of one-patch-per-game" I am glad you agree. By the way, why did you put the quotes around "version" >most of the patches were for funky systems specs some were for gameplay You say "most" of the patches were for system specs and "some" were for gameplay? GOOD FOR YOU! Your grasp of the obvious is impressive! (By "funky systems specs" I assume you mean correcting code that was causing lock-ups, desktop drops and the like.) >, however NSR it is the exact opposite. You say that each and every version of NR was patched. This is true. It is also true that each and every version of NSR was patched. How, in your mind, does this make NSR "the exact opposite"? > They shipped 'out the door' something that is UTTERLY worthless as not > only a sim, but for multiplayer. An opinion many disagree with. There are few who would not acknowledge that NR2003 is superior to NSR but your "UTTERLY worthless" characterization of NSR is simple minded. (A pattern emerges.) > Papyrus might have gotten off easy, in your mind because the not only > built the damn ruler but set the bar higher with every release and or > patch, what can EA honeslty bragg about? In my post I said that the volume of complaints thrown at Papy were about the same as that now leveled at EA and NSR By what mental process did you take these statements to mean I think Papy "got off easy"? I also said that every Papy release "had the advantage of being the best available at the time" Run this through that mental process of yours and tell me how you interpret it. Just where did I imply EA had anything to bragg about? Are you familier with the term "Straw Man"? >I know this is what you mean when you post that people popped money out for >Papy "turds?" lol I find that very funny. The name "Plowboy" carries with it a stereotype you do little to dispell. Pay attention while I explain. The term "turds" was introduced by Darius in the post I replied to. I repeated his term, *put it in quotes* and applied it to NR2002, NR4, etc NOT to label these as "turds" but only as a mechanism to point out that these were, like NSR, also inferior to NR2003. You seem to be the only one in the thread who did not grasp this. In order to avoid such misunderstandings in the future I suggest you announce your intention to participate in a thread before you make any actual comments. That way others involved in the discussion will know to write at a grade level less likely to cause you the confusion you display throughout your post. > Here's you... > "Uhm, UUUUHHHHM , well it is like a great racing game just like and as > great as 'Need For Speed' but you go around a circular track..." > Zero support. BTW I have tried most driving games, even EA's Bullshit, > and on the PC, what you playing, Nintendo? An example of your rapier wit? In order to be effective, ridicule must be based on and aimed at some observable aspects of the subject ridiculed. Without this anchor attempts at ridicule are only pathetic, simple-minded name calling. There are only a few posts from me in this thread so you should have no trouble at all providing us with a cut-and-paste of the anchor on which you tie your attempt at ridicule. Just where did I say anything remotely similar to your "Here's you"? Perhaps you would also grace us with an equally clever "Here's Darius" so you can gibber and giggle at him for saying: "Joe You make some valid points." > Here's the rest of the sim racing community, > "Need For Speed?" That is like saying Mongoose Bicycles (in walmart) are > not bad compared to Schwin's at the bicycle shop, for the same dollar > price" > BOLOGNA!!!!. Forgive me Plowboy. I did not realize you are the spokesman for "the rest of the sim racing community" If you are saying that NSR (Mongoose Bicycles) is "not bad compared to" and is "the same dollar price" as NR2003 (Schwin) then yes, that is indeed "BOLOGNA!!!!" Just where exactly did I ever state otherwise? > Joe enlightened us with: >> How much money did users drop on such "turds" as NR2002, NR4, etc [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] >> year after year but I think it is a little too early to place any >> bets. I think it's forgotten that Each version of NRx, once patched, had NO SHOWSTOPPERS. You can't say that about any of the EA Games. -Larry >> JOE, JOE, HELLO? > [quoted text clipped - 149 lines] >>> year after year but I think it is a little too early to place any >>> bets. > I think it's forgotten that Each version of NRx, once patched, had NO > SHOWSTOPPERS. I dunno if you'd consider them showstoppers, but the physics bugs in n2003 that survived the patch are pretty bad. - RF tire temps on road courses - trick setups on superspeedways - low drag/grip levels in cup/bgn physics hell, there are bugs in the NASA simulator, Ill bet you, but the frikken machine can at least do what it is supposed to be able to do, test the skill of the pilots in a set criteria of realism, you cant do what NSR says or implies that you and or up to what, 20 other drivers can race with the nascar rules and physics... yada yada, does it even come close (hell I wouldnt nitpick a tire bug, but shazam man, open difs, and the flag bugs, I mean bad bugs, not the little "need a human' there to decide the penalties merrrits, that and you cannot undo (server commands) like you do in NRXX... again all about degree of nits to pick... jason moyer enlightened us with: >> I think it's forgotten that Each version of NRx, once patched, had NO >> SHOWSTOPPERS. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > - trick setups on superspeedways > - low drag/grip levels in cup/bgn physics Oh, I agree. I wouldn't spend $30 on NSR after playing the demo. I have no idea how the open diff bug slipped through beta testing when I noticed it within 3 laps at Kansas in the demo. And it's not a show-stopper, which is obvious since NR2003 is the most successful SIM that's been released. -Larry >> I think it's forgotten that Each version of NRx, once patched, had NO >> SHOWSTOPPERS. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > - trick setups on superspeedways > - low drag/grip levels in cup/bgn physics > And it's not a show-stopper, which is obvious since NR2003 is the most > successful SIM that's been released. In what way is n2003 the most successful? Joe, Ok, I forgot about this argument I started with you, LOL... Joe enlightened us with: >> JOE, JOE, HELLO? > > Hi > >> Each and every "version" of NR that papy put out the door was >> specifically eventually patched, FWIW, even back to NR04, When the patch was done, the GD game worked, to the reasonable ability of the game & the rules and the representation it was attempting to make. Black flags, passing under yellow wrecks, spotters, pit road violations, driving conditions all that taken into account. This is so unlike what EA produced. IMHO they spent more time racing a car at the track than they did writing the code and testing the game? the only solution is a complete code rewrite. Not my fault, but it is true, wont work as established, of the rules in place before the beta was even out for private testing, only a bout 1 in 3 are done even close. in fact that is probably exactly why they quit fixing it, I think they have realized it is beyond fixing... sorry. my guess is, that if they continue with this game, next release of any kind will be NSR2006. They proven this with their other titles. what more proof do ya need? last projection was at A minimum 3 patches away from a usable product... papy's stuff was usable, might have had a glitch in scoring, or drawing the cars or collisions (depending on your view of how important those are) but the concept of the game, gameplay and online play were proven to run since the 1st version (you ever hear of the online beta testing referred to as Nascar Racing's Hawaii?) then came the1st place even have multiplayer (TEN gaming) then one of the 1st few games to freely host open lobbies for customers. > You are correct. I also said as much with "Papy's practice of > one-patch-per-game" I am glad you agree. > By the way, why did you put the quotes around "version" Because my point was like Madden football for christ's sake, or everything else EA produces, they dont fix sh.t, they re release with what the community already does on its own on this Papyrus tittle. for cryin out loud, if madden or tiger woods could not even keep score if you kicked a field goal, or sacked the qb, or if sinking a 5 over par shot on the green from the fringe more or less crashed the game for you, you would be livid!!! you dont think a bullshit black flag by passing a car that has crashed into the wall at full speed with 12 other cars, is a unbeliveable serious bug? sh.t man, I mean, give some credit where credit is due, the fact that at one track the pace car might act up, or if you followed too close to another car as he pitted and gave you a BF, are workable & avoidable bugs, but oly way to not get a BF while racing NSR is to sit in the pits, sorry.... IMHO. >> most of the patches were for funky systems specs some were for >> gameplay [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > (By "funky systems specs" I assume you mean correcting code that was > causing lock-ups, desktop drops and the like.) No, just one example for you, and admittely worse back then than now, bu not unlike now there were 2 competing (3 if you count Microsoft's dirctx) graffix card languages used to draw games to the monitors, of them each were new, they supported and half of the 'specs' for each, there was one standard (remember the OPENGL?) and one MFG of cards (voodoo) decide to build their own custom language. They were not fully used, documented, let alone debugged, plus you had MS monkeying with everything, Back then, you didn't necessarily have the latest and greatest everytime a game came along, for crying out loud my 1st 3 pc's cost about 3 grand each without even a OS on my 1st 2. Toss into the mix the adware and crap 90% of the gaming population have with their pc's it is a wonder some games can even run! Oh and some MS's History for you... this doesn't even include the long list of DOS you could buy in the same time frames... 1983Microsoft Windows was announced November, 1983 and sells for $100.00. 1985Microsoft Windows 1.0 is introduced in November, 1985 and is initially sold for $100.00. 1987Microsoft Windows 2.0 was released December 9, 1987 and is initially sold for $100.00. 1987Microsoft Windows/386 or Windows 386 is introduced December 9, 1987 and is initially sold for $100.00. 1988Microsoft Windows/286 or Windows 286 is introduced June, 1988 and is initially sold for $100.00. 1990Microsoft Windows 3.0 was released May, 22 1990. Microsoft Windows 3.0 full version was priced at $149.95 and the upgrade version was priced at $79.95. 1991Microsoft Windows 3.0 or Windows 3.0a with multimedia was released October, 1991. 1992Microsoft Windows 3.1 was released April, 1992 and sells more than 1 Million copies within the first two months of its release. 1992Microsoft Windows for Workgroups 3.1 was released October, 1992. 1993Microsoft Windows NT 3.1 was released August, 1993. 1993The number of licensed users of Microsoft Windows now totals more then 25 Million. 1994Microsoft Windows for Workgroups 3.11 was released February, 1994 So now today, what are we on, like direct x revision version 23, since inception? In this argument.... I think it is not fair in reality to hold everyone to a higher standard than you hold your own arguments, at least I can be relative and correct when I said in the 1st 2 versions windows itself compromised most of the problems, or DOS versions, but you prolly don't know that since you prolly been gaming since what, win98 (sorry it is a guess)? do you know my 1st PC with any version of windows, was my 2nd or 3rd PC? and that the version I had was version 2.0 that POS operating system wouldn't run Nascar, but 3.1 did finally so who's fault? I don't think it was Papy's sorry... >> , however NSR it is the exact opposite. > > You say that each and every version of NR was patched. This is true. > It is also true that each and every version of NSR was patched. How, > in your mind, does this make NSR "the exact opposite"? NSR has not been patched other than to say "technically" it has because they said so, they fixed what, how a couple things are drawn? did they fix multiplayer? Fix the flags (offline) or anything? no!!!! did they attempt to yet? no. did they make the game usable with the patch as it is? no, so how you call it a patch? you do because it was called a patch. sh.t, the aftermarket cars and stuff that used to be found online like the US-Pits would be called Patches 'technically' by your definition. yet I don't have to have the patch to go online NsR AFAIK. >> They shipped 'out the door' something that is UTTERLY worthless as >> not only a sim, but for multiplayer. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > worthless" characterization of NSR is simple minded. (A pattern > emerges.) Not worthless as what? I mean technically my 1st non PC computer (circa 1977 which is a TANDY 1000) is not WORHTLESS, I mean I could use it, if nothing else as a boat anchor... You cannot race online UNLESS you equivocally deny any and all standards that are out for gameplay, at that point, I say fine, you don't care it doesn't matter, but I hate it. BTW I liked some of NSR, do I bother to race it? No, not where there are much better alternatives to the POS. >> Papyrus might have gotten off easy, in your mind because the not only >> built the damn ruler but set the bar higher with every release and or [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > best available at the time" Run this through that mental process of > yours and tell me how you interpret it. Look, I had to make an assumption cause you and I aren't siskell and or ebert on TV, arguing across the aisle in real time, I also used that 'analogy and statement' to impart some information to you as to why I might say it is thumbs up or down, to me it is down, I've documented my side although thinly here in this thread, as I could prolly write a thick book nobody wants to read about why I say what I say... > Just where did I imply EA had anything to bragg about? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > The name "Plowboy" carries with it a stereotype you do little to > dispell. I finish this diviersion below... > Pay attention while I explain. The term "turds" was introduced by > Darius in the post I replied to. I repeated his term, *put it in [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > An example of your rapier wit? I thought it was funny as I think your comebacks are witty, shame you get so pissy about it, after all it is just an arguement about an opinion. > In order to be effective, ridicule must be based on and aimed at some > observable aspects of the subject ridiculed. You have no idea what Plowboy means.... But FYI, as I have grown up on the farm, even as a kid, I have had to learn more than the quickest way across town to earn my pay. Im not only the financial planner, Tax Advisor, the bread winner, I am the mechanic, the beta tester, Market Research Analysist, sh.t scooper, I have more experience at more facits in life and work in a 12 hour day than anything short of the military (been there done that too). On the farm, I am all that, & the laborer & now that I am a little older, the CEO. So well, it is funny how you bring all this up earlier and again now in your diatribe against me? Me thinks you are living the stereo type protrayed by hollywood there, you and put out there that plowboy is "well goooo ooooo leeeeee seargeant, I didnt know pushing on the gas pedal would make the jeep run over your foot!!!!" where in fact everything you have put out on this topic makes me think Gomer Pyle. "NSR is just great, if you dont speed in the pits, dont want to run in any organized online events, turn off all the rules and flags... yada yada.." the list runs on and on with you. > attempts at ridicule are only pathetic, simple-minded name calling. There > are only a few posts from me in this thread so you should have [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Darius" so you can gibber and giggle at him for saying: "Joe You > make some valid points." Hell, maybe he thought you had some? I didnt didnt mean I dont like you btw, I didnt like your opinion but sh.t man, I dont like all of my friends' opinions of everything, sh.t. >> Here's the rest of the sim racing community, >> "Need For Speed?" That is like saying Mongoose Bicycles (in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Forgive me Plowboy. I did not realize you are the spokesman for "the >rest of the sim racing community" well again, I been online long time, I personally think most were, maybe most of my online generation is gone from here.... > If you are saying that NSR (Mongoose Bicycles) is "not bad compared > to" and is "the same dollar price" as NR2003 (Schwin) then yes, that > is indeed "BOLOGNA!!!!" > Just where exactly did I ever state otherwise? Would that be where you said NR4 & NR02 were exactly like NsR (version 1)? OOOOKKKKAAAAAYYYYYY then. last thing: By any chance do you own a car? does the 1999 version of the honda accord seem to be so radically different than the version made in 96? how about 2005? are they not 2 or 4 door front wheel drive automobiles? with some mentality, How dare honda not make a complete and different car every year? hmmmm.... but, if no, why buy it? More to the point here as I see it: Lets compare the HONDA (papyrus's product) to the Yugo (NSR's product) or even say, the 74 Pinto? Which would you want to own, even when both were built the same year (and there was a year they both were new models with the timespan difference we're talking about here with NR4, 02, & 03 and NSR? Yet we'd have to modify this to say they cost the same price at the dealer (unlike the real comparison of the honda vs yugo, & Pinto (especially if you took away the tarrifs from imports.... HMMMMMM?) ANSWER THE QUESTION???? > I have both NR2003 and NASCAR Simracing. I am what might be called a casual > player. I have not raced for a while and have been thinking about getting [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > $100 it seems to me that new guys willing to pay that just to try online > racing will be few and far between. If true this cannot be good. I use NR2K3, and have never tried that other game. A number of folks are doing LFS and/or GTR. With FIRST stepping on it's own dick, a lot of people are waiting for rFactor (August? September?). rFactor mods are already under construction for the 1970 grand national mod, and there may even be an aero88 mod for it as well. There will most certainly be a modern stockcar mod for it, too. On top of that, various grand am, trans-am, open-wheel, and other mods are being planned. Look for a lot of 3rd-party support from The Pits. I wonder if people are going to still be gaga about rFactor after it's been out 3 months and everyone sees the same problems all of ISI's other sims had. I wish them well with this new engine, but I've had the same criticisms of each successive release since SCGT. Playing the MP demo, I hope the code isn't optimized because it reminds me of SCGT/F1-2000 in that the framerate is way too low for something with that graphical quality. "jason moyer" <jmoyer@pair.com> wrote in news:1121344767.775973.220980 @z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com: > I wonder if people are going to still be gaga about rFactor after it's > been out 3 months and everyone sees the same problems all of ISI's [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > SCGT/F1-2000 in that the framerate is way too low for something with > that graphical quality. Framerate issues are not something I've seen complaints about yet. Realize in the demo, a portion of the physics engine and a portion of the graphics engine are disabled. So the drag on your system will probably increase with the final product. Next, fps are 'usually' better in online situations than offline, so if you run offline with a large pack, then even more fps will drain away. I'd start googling for fps improvements from the older titles and see if you can find something to help your system. Hanje's site is pretty thorough. dave henrie > I'd start googling for fps improvements from the older titles and see if > you can find something to help your system. Hanje's site is pretty > thorough. For comparison, I can run the v8 mod at any track with a full field and it never dips below 50 fps. > I wonder if people are going to still be gaga about rFactor > after it's been out 3 months Life is a triumph of hope over experience. The journey is what matters, not the destination. Andrew "fortune cookie" McP |
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