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Game Forum / Simulators / Car Simulators / December 2004MOMO Racing vs Driving Force Pro, for PC use
I want a wheel that is precise, has no (or minimal) slop or "dead zone", and is capable of providing good road feel through the FF. The DFP supports 900 degree mode. This is supposedly a lot of fun, and combined with DXTweak it provides a lot of flexibility. That's easily worth an extra $50 to me, but only if the wheel is equal to MOMO in precision and FF effects. Therein lies the rub... On Racing Sim Central, there were a bunch of users saying the DFP provides very subdued FF compared to the MOMO, that the FF is "notchy" or just doesn't feel quite right, and that it creates too much resistance to countersteer. On the Logitech forums, the programmers acknowledged that the PC driver's FF code is not "tuned" for the DFP (since it's not officially supported on the PC). They said support may be added in the next driver release, but that's a maybe -- I'd rather not risk being stuck with wonky FF. Then again, I've seen *some* users say the DFP's FF is *better* than the MOMOs. I've also heard some say the wheel is more precise, possibly because it has an optical sensor. And then there's that sexy 900 degree mode... So, I'm torn. Lots of conflicting reports, not sure who to believe. Anyone own/tried both these wheels and want to give their take on it? Cheers, Eric DFP = Driving Force Pro, MR = MOMO Racing... > I want a wheel that is precise, has no (or minimal) slop or "dead > zone", and is capable of providing good road feel through the FF. DFP: has ball bearings, tight feel, probably throughout a longer time. MR: tends to get a bit wobbly (not bad but just more plasticky). Deadzone doesn't exist in either as far as the wheel is concerned; if there's deadzone, it's the game's or Windows' (and impacts every controller). Feel through FF - this is a bit of a personal preference, MR tends to be more muted (due to no ball bearings and therefore higher friction), DFP a bit more agressive and certainly stronger. > The DFP supports 900 degree mode. This is supposedly a lot of fun, > and combined with DXTweak it provides a lot of flexibility. That's > easily worth an extra $50 to me, but only if the wheel is equal to > MOMO in precision and FF effects. Therein lies the rub... Both wheels report 10 bits on the wheel axis through an optical sensor. In 200 degree mode, the DFP has an angular resolution of 200/1024 = 5 counts/degree vs. MR 240/1024 = 4.2 counts per degree. In 900 degree, the DFP drops down to a bit more than 1 count per degree, so it looses. (but wait, there's more! - see below). FF effects are similar, but different, and a matter of preference/getting used to. In 900 degree, the DFP is quite loud (gear noise) vs. the MR. In 200 degree, the DFP is still a bit louder, more "agressive" loud than MR, but you get used to it. (unless your SO or kid wakes up :) > On Racing Sim Central, there were a bunch of users saying the DFP > provides very subdued FF compared to the MOMO, that the FF is > "notchy" or just doesn't feel quite right, and that it creates too > much resistance to countersteer. Well the problem comes up with 900 degrees that you have to turn *a lot* and because of the nature of the beast, the same amount of resistance will all of a sudden feel like more because you're turning further. As for "doesn't feel quite right", that's often the first impression you get if you're used to wheel A/brand X and go to wheel B/brand Y. Folks said the same between the WMFF and the red MOMO, too. > On the Logitech forums, the > programmers acknowledged that the PC driver's FF code is not "tuned" > for the DFP (since it's not officially supported on the PC). They > said support may be added in the next driver release, but that's a > maybe -- I'd rather not risk being stuck with wonky FF. Little birdy is telling me that the maybe is rather certainly a "for sure". Along that, the wheel will run in fully enabled mode, which gives you two buttons more and 14 bit reporting (a range of 16,384 counts for the wheel - which would give you 18 counts per degree on 900 degree mode and 82 counts/deg on 200 degree mode! This is absolutely unheard AFAIK and makes it the most precise wheel ever, at least in consumer space); additionally, birdy is singing about adjustable range (no more DXTweak messing, birdy chirped rather happily). > Then again, I've seen *some* users say the DFP's FF is *better* than > the MOMOs. I've also heard some say the wheel is more precise, > possibly because it has an optical sensor. Again, FF is personal preference. Precision is not a problem, both are optical. DFP (once enabled) will be more precise than anything else. > And then there's that sexy 900 degree mode... If you say so... > So, I'm torn. Lots of conflicting reports, not sure who to believe. > Anyone own/tried both these wheels and want to give their take on it? See above, FWIW. The weak spot on both wheels are, well, not the wheels but the pedals. There's a "pedal fix" for MR out there, expect the same for DFP as part of the official support in the Logitech software. If you're among the unlucky, expect to have to deal with support to swap pedals. v4.6 of the software is coming soon with increased functionality, but ive not had a problem using the current 4.4 It seems to be the rumble strip and grass texture effects etc that are muted, imo the actual front tyre loading feels just as good as it does on other wheels. pez > DFP = Driving Force Pro, MR = MOMO Racing... > [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > the official support in the Logitech software. If you're among the unlucky, > expect to have to deal with support to swap pedals. > Little birdy is telling me that the maybe is rather certainly a "for sure". > Along that, the wheel will run in fully enabled mode, which gives you two [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > birdy is singing about adjustable range (no more DXTweak messing, birdy > chirped rather happily). Well, that's all I needed to hear. DFP it is. I have spend *days* Googling "Driving Force Pro" and "Driving Force Pro MOMO" and reading through all the hits; your post trumps them all. Thanks. :) > On Racing Sim Central, there were a bunch of users saying the DFP > provides very subdued FF compared to the MOMO, that the FF is "notchy" [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > be added in the next driver release, but that's a maybe -- I'd rather > not risk being stuck with wonky FF. FF on the DFP is fine in terms of strength. In fact, I'd say it's much stronger. The MR does seem smoother overall, but the DFP still is close behind in my opinion. The key is to not have FF at incredibly high gain. With the strength dialed back closer to MR output, the feel is very smooth. Overall, the notchiness, IME, is mostly from excessive centering force, and it's more "gritty" than notchy. > Then again, I've seen *some* users say the DFP's FF is *better* than > the MOMOs. I've also heard some say the wheel is more precise, possibly > because it has an optical sensor. And then there's that sexy 900 degree > mode... The full 900 degrees is mostly useless unless you regularly drive sims simulating road cars (GT4 for PC would be nice :) ). However, the flexibility to have any usuable range you need is fantastic.... even without physical stops. Just my 2 cents, Alan Real nascar drivers run lower ratios than we run in nr2003, and have wheels that go around 4 times or so (depending on the setup). You should be running mid to high 20s to 1 steering at daytona, as they do in real life, and have a mutliturn wheel and switch off the low speed steering hack and run 100% linearity if you want the most accurate representation of real life nascar (or so ive been led to believe). So its not just for road car sims, its for boat sims too ;) pez > > On Racing Sim Central, there were a bunch of users saying the DFP > > provides very subdued FF compared to the MOMO, that the FF is "notchy" [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Just my 2 cents, > Alan > The key is to not have FF at incredibly high gain. With the strength dialed > back closer to MR output, the feel is very smooth. How much should I dial it back (so I can set it up properly when it arrives)? I've also heard the DFP is very loud, does dialing back the FF strength make it quieter? Any other setup tips? Cheers, Eric > > The key is to not have FF at incredibly high gain. With the strength dialed > > back closer to MR output, the feel is very smooth. > > How much should I dial it back (so I can set it up properly when it arrives)? Personally, I run overall gain at 100%, spring strength at 65-75%, and damper strength at 100%. The centering spring is unchecked. That's all for the Control Panel settings. In game, it's very user dependent. I like to run NR2003 down around 65%. It just feels more natural to me. In F1C, full effects and strength at about -85% works for me as a general rule of thumb. > I've also heard the DFP is very loud, does dialing back the FF strength make > it quieter? The DFP is just noisy in general. It comes from the gears when moving the wheel back and forth. It's really only an issue in games where you're constantly applying a fair bit of opposite lock (e.g. RBR). Even so, I honestly don't "hear" it at all while I'm driving. IOW, yes it's loud... but not loud enough to break my concentration. > Any other setup tips? Just remember to put the wheel at 100% strength too (Select+R3+Left Paddle... Left LED should blink twice). If you're not used to FF, expect an acclimation period. The effects can sometimes be subtle (a good thing IMHO), but after awhile, you'll notice things like a difference in feel as the front tires wear out. :) Alan >> How much should I dial it back (so I can set it up properly when it >> arrives)? > > Personally, I run overall gain at 100%, spring strength at 65-75%, > and damper strength at 100%. The centering spring is unchecked. Sounds about right. I leave all except overall gain at 100%, and overall gain to 90%. It's really personal preference to a high degree. It's a pretty strong wheel, and especially in multiturn can become a bit of a workout. Not a bad thing.... > That's all for the Control Panel settings. In game, it's very user > dependent. Again, agreed. Try Alan's settings, if you think it's too weak, up it a bit. >> I've also heard the DFP is very loud, does dialing back the FF >> strength make it quieter? > > The DFP is just noisy in general. It comes from the gears when > mving the wheel back and forth. Again, agreed. > It's really only an issue in games where you're constantly applying > a fair bit of opposite lock (e.g. RBR). Even so, I honestly don't > "hear" it at all while I'm driving. IOW, yes it's loud... but not loud > enough to break my concentration. No, the problem is other people. If you're trying to play at midnight with a SO or kid sleeping, or in an apartment with really thin walls, then you're into trouble with the noise. If you don't have a situation like that, the whirring isn't distracting at all. Just turn up the volume a bit, or put on those headphones. You won't hear a thing. >> Any other setup tips? > > Just remember to put the wheel at 100% strength too (Select+R3+Left > Paddle... Left LED should blink twice). I'm curious to see those 4.6 drivers with the adjustable range. That's going to be nice, I think.. > If you're not used to FF, expect an acclimation period. The > effects can sometimes be subtle (a good thing IMHO), but > after awhile, you'll notice things like a > difference in feel as the front tires wear out. :) Yeah, resist the urge to "turn it up" too much. More/bigger is not always better, just more impressive. The fine nuances and subtle clues are much more helpful. > Personally, I run overall gain at 100% I'm a little bit worried about this review: http://www.neoseeker.com/Articles/Hardware/Reviews/dforcepro/2.html They managed to damage the wheel on their first run, introducing a permanent wobble. I have no idea what they specifically mean by "wobble" and what internal mechanism is responsible, but it's enough to make me paranoid of breaking the wheel. I wonder if turning down the FF will make the wheel last longer... > The effects can sometimes be subtle (a good thing IMHO), but > after awhile, you'll notice things like a difference in feel as > the front tires wear out. Cool. That's what I'm after. I've been playing LFS with the mouse (I downloaded a bunch of demos in preparation for the wheel, LFS is one of the few that supports mouse input) and I'm getting pretty good at it. It will be interesting to see how my first run with the wheel compares to the times I'm getting with the mouse. I can hardly wait for Santa to get here. :) Happy Holidays, Eric Ive had the wheel since its release, and been using it pretty extensively for n2003 and gt3 prologue. I even gave it a hammering during the US pits Bullrun 1000, and still no problems with it. pez > > Personally, I run overall gain at 100% > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Happy Holidays, > Eric > Ive had the wheel since its release, and been using it pretty extensively > for n2003 and gt3 prologue. I even gave it a hammering during the US pits > Bullrun 1000, and still no problems with it. I've had mine for awhle and haven't had problems until recently. The right "paddle" button has taken to occasionally requiring two presses on some upshifts or actually triggering multiple upshifts with a single press. It's not a show stopper though as it isn't consistent enough for me to worry. For now, I consider it an electronics problem with the vehicle. :) Otherwise, it's been trouble free, and it sees a lot of use.... an average of maybe two hours per day, 7 days a week. I got it not long after folks started noticing it was usable on the PC. No "wobbles" though. In fact, there's less play in the shaft than the MOMO Racing. Alan I've been following this thread and have decided to buy a Driving Force Pro. Unfortunately the only ones I've been able to find online are for systems other than Windows PC. Am I missing something here? Also, I'd like recommendations for a good PC Formula 1 simulation -- preferably one that won't take weeks to learn. Thanks, Maddy >I want a wheel that is precise, has no (or minimal) slop or "dead >zone", and is capable of providing good road feel through the FF. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >Cheers, >Eric > I've been following this thread and have decided to buy a Driving > Force Pro. Unfortunately the only ones I've been able to find > online are for systems other than Windows PC. Am I missing > something here? It's sold for PS2, but works fine on the PC with Logitech's universal driver (it's USB). I got one and it's awesome. The built quality is excellent, it looks great, it attaches easily and firmly to your desk, and the pedals don't slide. It's terrifically precise, with no deadzone whatsoever, and no need for calibration. The force feedback is exceptional. I still can't believe how much information you can get through your hands. A wheel like this, in a modern racing sim like GTR or rFactor, with a good computer and audio system, is about as immersive as gaming gets. That said, I'm thinking of trading it in for the MOMO Racing. I think the MOMO Racing -- with it's wider grip, 240 degrees from lock to lock, and real shifter paddles -- is more ideally suited for the kinds the games I want to play (F1C, GTR, rFactor). As long as it matches the DFP in all other respects (mounting mechanism, precision, force feedback, etc.) it looks like the ideal wheel for me. I'm going to buy it some times this week and A/B it against the DFP. > Also, I'd like recommendations for a good PC Formula 1 simulation -- > preferably one that won't take weeks to learn. To be honest, you could start in 1967 and it *still* would take years to learn ;-) All the best, uwe  SignatureGPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61 |
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